Author Topic: Game Balancing - General  (Read 6345 times)

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Offline Algernon

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Game Balancing - General
« on: May 26, 2014, 03:54:34 PM »
I figured that I'd start a thread for game balancing ideas that are outside of the arena or combat (since we already have the arena thread started).

Well, without further ado, here are a few of my ideas:

1) MC actions and stats don't seem to be all that useful for girl interactions.  Spending 1 AP for maybe 2 points onto a single sex stat doesn't hold up to spending that 1 AP for around 20 disposition on hiring a new girl (free) or buying a slave or training the MC's constitution.
What I suggest is to change a few things for girl interactions for sex training. 
First off, let's have Disposition, Joy and the MC's Charisma affect the possibility of the girl learning.  A girl is much more likely to want to learn something if she's happy, likes the guy and he's charming.  In contrast, if she's unhappy, hates the guy and he's ugly, then she will just want this horrible experience over with asap.
Second, let's have the MC's Sex stat directly affect the number of skill points gained.  I understand that the current system gives a chance at causing both the girl and MC to gain 1 additional sex stat point, but that seems rather small when you compare that to how high you have to raise the stats.  What's the point of having raising your sex stat further, when it really doesn't speed up the girl's training all that much?
One idea would be to have every 50 points of Sex gives 1 skill point that the girl can get from the training.  Another concept would be to drop the max values of the Sex stat to be around the values for ATK/DEF, then have 10% of the Sex stat be the gains from the training.

2) Schools are too inconsistent to be reliable.  I keep ending up with a bunch of high level Etiquette, Combat and Beauty courses on the list, but I almost never get any XXX courses.  What I'm thinking is that there should be some static, low level courses for early girl training.  Maybe give them a teacher skill of 50 and a master skill of 20 or 30.

3) MC training is prohibitively expensive.  1k gold per 5 levels, for a chance at a few stat points, is too much.  I'm thinking that the training should give guaranteed stat boosts (something like +4 to +8), however there should also be other ways to get stat boosts.
The other method would be to do work in the different areas.  For example, you could work as a sparing partner at the arena for a chance to increase your combat stats or you can help clean up the arena for a chance at a CON boost.  Another example would be that you could help clean up the slave pens for a chance at a CON boost, or work as a male escort for a chance at a Charisma or Sex boost.
Now, having the MC work and get stat boosts would need to have only a small chance of increasing stats.  Otherwise, there is no point in training.  However, the MC is making money from working, so it still is a worthwhile use of AP.
Another method would be to have brothel upgrades that are only for getting the MC's skills up.  This would make the "Next Day" button on the turn summary much more worthwhile.  The problem for the player is that these facilities will only help the MC, but won't help the girls working there.

4) Miscellaneous items could have a number of "charges" for use.  Take the dumbbell set for example.  What I propose is that the dumbbells would be able to build up a girl's CON by 5-10 points before they break.  However, they would be able to increase a girl's stats, no matter the current level.  5 points to a stat for 640 gold may seem like a bargain, but then you have to figure in the sheer number of girls and how far it is to the next AP and it becomes rather expensive.  Couple that with the fact that you may want to use items that train other stats and it will cause the player to really think about what they want to equip on a girl or if they would rather have her train for the skill points.

Well, these are just a few of my ideas.  So, feel free to use, discard, laugh or poke fun at them to your heart's content :)

And once again, thank you for this great game!


Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 06:38:26 AM »
1) Yup, I like the idea with 1 more point per 50 MC points. We cannot make MC training too effective because it's free, while schools and items are not.

2) I'd say schools are supposed to be just another way of training, not the main one. Girls should learn via jobs, items, interaction with MC, from each other (in the future). I'm afraid that all other ways of training will become much less useful if schools will have all types of courses all the time.

3) I'm personaly not statisfated with the current MC training system, it seems too straightforward (give gold and get bonus to stats). We probably should move basic training options to MC house, while others could be implemented via various jobs, items and quests.

4) Yup, I thought about it as well. Maybe there will be items that could be used like 20-50 times but can not exceed a certain level of stat, and items that could be used 5-10 times without stat limitations.

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 08:57:38 AM »
1) MC actions and stats don't seem to be all that useful for girl interactions.  Spending 1 AP for maybe 2 points onto a single sex stat doesn't hold up to spending that 1 AP for around 20 disposition on hiring a new girl (free) or buying a slave or training the MC's constitution.
What I suggest is to change a few things for girl interactions for sex training. 
First off, let's have Disposition, Joy and the MC's Charisma affect the possibility of the girl learning.  A girl is much more likely to want to learn something if she's happy, likes the guy and he's charming.  In contrast, if she's unhappy, hates the guy and he's ugly, then she will just want this horrible experience over with asap.
Second, let's have the MC's Sex stat directly affect the number of skill points gained.  I understand that the current system gives a chance at causing both the girl and MC to gain 1 additional sex stat point, but that seems rather small when you compare that to how high you have to raise the stats.  What's the point of having raising your sex stat further, when it really doesn't speed up the girl's training all that much?
One idea would be to have every 50 points of Sex gives 1 skill point that the girl can get from the training.  Another concept would be to drop the max values of the Sex stat to be around the values for ATK/DEF, then have 10% of the Sex stat be the gains from the training.

- MC actions and stats are taken from different games and kinda blended into one. That's usually a source of some issues, both with understanding the game play and coding the game.

- Most of your suggestions ave been implemented already, even thought you might now know about it, a lot is happening "under the hood" so MC's stats already determine quite a bit during personal training.


2) Schools are too inconsistent to be reliable.  I keep ending up with a bunch of high level Etiquette, Combat and Beauty courses on the list, but I almost never get any XXX courses.  What I'm thinking is that there should be some static, low level courses for early girl training.  Maybe give them a teacher skill of 50 and a master skill of 20 or 30.

I've been meaning to tweak schools a bit. It will still be random but will get better with time.

3) MC training is prohibitively expensive.  1k gold per 5 levels, for a chance at a few stat points, is too much.  I'm thinking that the training should give guaranteed stat boosts (something like +4 to +8), however there should also be other ways to get stat boosts.
The other method would be to do work in the different areas.  For example, you could work as a sparing partner at the arena for a chance to increase your combat stats or you can help clean up the arena for a chance at a CON boost.  Another example would be that you could help clean up the slave pens for a chance at a CON boost, or work as a male escort for a chance at a Charisma or Sex boost.
Now, having the MC work and get stat boosts would need to have only a small chance of increasing stats.  Otherwise, there is no point in training.  However, the MC is making money from working, so it still is a worthwhile use of AP.
Another method would be to have brothel upgrades that are only for getting the MC's skills up.  This would make the "Next Day" button on the turn summary much more worthwhile.  The problem for the player is that these facilities will only help the MC, but won't help the girls working there.

- MC training is a money drain (one of them). Right now the taxes are pretty lethal but after I improve upon that... most people tend to have a problem with having millions of Gold after setting up a decent operation. As it cannot be spent, game is becoming too boring and it doesn't really have and end.

Increasingly expensive stuff is a way to mitigate that for just a little bit longer. Stats boosts are always guaranteed btw, unless your max is capped. But I'll tweak this as well, we'll improve this issues as we go.


4) Miscellaneous items could have a number of "charges" for use.  Take the dumbbell set for example.  What I propose is that the dumbbells would be able to build up a girl's CON by 5-10 points before they break.  However, they would be able to increase a girl's stats, no matter the current level.  5 points to a stat for 640 gold may seem like a bargain, but then you have to figure in the sheer number of girls and how far it is to the next AP and it becomes rather expensive.  Couple that with the fact that you may want to use items that train other stats and it will cause the player to really think about what they want to equip on a girl or if they would rather have her train for the skill points.

I think items system we have now is already quite good... Basically most of what you propose is possible already but i do not favor breaking dumbbells. In fact it's prolly the only thing I've owned in my life (RL) that I failed to break :D

Items needs to be adjusted, they were created with max stat cap of 100 in mind, that's no longer the case.

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 11:05:33 AM »
@Dark:

Any progress on balancing sheet? I want to make a class with some base values for the future... it might be easier to balance out if everything is at one place instead of all over the code.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 11:39:50 AM »
You said you won't do anything in the near future, so I took my time  :)
I'll finish it tomorrow.

As for low sex prices, it's well explained in Otherworld. Either our MC builds the very first brothel in the city, they don't have sex slaves too (or at least they are very rare and expensive) and prices are high because there is no competition, or vice versa. I'm under impression that we have the second case so far.

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 12:00:33 PM »
You said you won't do anything in the near future, so I took my time  :)
I'll finish it tomorrow.

As for low sex prices, it's well explained in Otherworld. Either our MC builds the very first brothel in the city, they don't have sex slaves too (or at least they are very rare and expensive) and prices are high because there is no competition, or vice versa. I'm under impression that we have the second case so far.

I am not going to do anything major but I could use something to think about. You need to make sure number add up and game is balanced with them, not just the base values but their progression as well.

I fixed the saving thing and pushed it to SF yesterday and prototyped difficulties class today that would allow to pick difficulty at any point in game. I don't know if I get the chance to work on something tomorrow but if I will next would be taxes of profits instead of income, balance class or guides.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 04:05:51 AM »
I fixed base cost a bit and come up with approximate formulas for whoring. I'm not sure how the game calculates payment for non whoring jobs like waitress or guard, so I'm not sure about values either. For now I'm assuming that whores get their money per act, while others per day.

I tested it in excel, looks pretty good. You could try it too if you are not sure about my values.

Before I'll start to change items prices, we should reach agreement about girls payment.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 04:10:47 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 05:34:40 AM »
I fixed base cost a bit and come up with approximate formulas for whoring. I'm not sure how the game calculates payment for non whoring jobs like waitress or guard, so I'm not sure about values either. For now I'm assuming that whores get their money per act, while others per day.

I tested it in excel, looks pretty good. You could try it too if you are not sure about my values.

Before I'll start to change items prices, we should reach agreement about girls payment.

That's what I am talking about :)

Ok, I'll slowly start updating the game with this as time permits and creating ways to modify this in the future that are less painful. Don't forget that there are dozens of other balancing values like ranks, different arena fights, training and etc.

I'm not sure how the game calculates payment for non whoring jobs like waitress or guard, so I'm not sure about values either. For now I'm assuming that whores get their money per act, while others per day.

Not really, it's a bit more complicated with this:

1) Guards:

+ Do not earn you any money unless an event where they apprehend an aggressor that would rather pay up than face the authorities. *Note here that girls that fight in the arena and get payed there also consider that money as part of their wages.
- They get payed on daily basis unless it's a rest day (we could easily make it once per week/month as in rl but it would be a bit confusing to the player). They expect payment even when sent training I believe.

2) Whores:

+ They make money per act, can receive tips as well. Player may choose if the girl keeps the tips in the Girl Control.
- They get payed on daily basis, actually everyone gets payed on daily basis so there are less calculations during the next day. If you wish to know the order, this is it for all girls:

Jobs/Job Events --> Logging all income in finances --> Settling finances per girl during their individual Next Day method.

3) Strippers:

+ They only earn tips (sometimes quite a bit actually), player gets to choose if they're allowed to keep those or not.
- Same as with the rest of the girls, daily wages.

4) Waitresses or Bartenders:

+ They earn money based on the amount of customers they serve. This gets trickier because strippers are the once who "keep" the costumers in your establishment and keep the cash flowing in. Right now costumers have a limited amount of money but game assumes that those are infinite for a number of reasons (no balance sheet being the main one :) ). So the same customer can buy multiple "discrete units" of service (assumes those units are liquor, beer, snacks and etc.). Updates increase the price of those "discrete units".
- Get payed like everyone else.

5) Cleaners:

+ I do not believe they make any money or we currently have any events like funding a coin purse unless I've coded something and forgot.
- They get paid like everyone else being the same ServiceGirls as Waitresses.

We also need to include costumers into your spread sheet, per social rank and balance out as well. There are a lot of smaller things but once the base prices are established I think we can just throw that balance doc in dropbox and add stuff to it as we go.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 05:55:36 AM »
I believe only whores will have ranks?

I need to know how many girls ranks and how many customers social ranks we have, and what exactly ranks should mean. More girls's rank = more customers social rank, or there is more?

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 06:05:51 AM »
I believe only whores will have ranks?

I need to know how many girls ranks and how many customers social ranks we have, and what exactly ranks should mean. More girls's rank = more customers social rank, or there is more?

Yes, only whores.

        wranks = {
                'r1': dict(id=1, name=('Rank 1: Kirimise', '(Almost beggar)'), price=0),
                'r2': dict(id=2, name=("Rank 2: Heya-Mochi", "(Low-class prostitute)"), price=1000, ref=45, exp=10000),
                'r3': dict(id=3, name=("Rank 3: Zashiki-Mochi", "(Middle-class Prostitute"), price=3000, ref=60, exp=25000),
                'r4': dict(id=4, name=("Rank 4: Tsuke-Mawashi", "(Courtesan)"), price=5000, ref=80, exp=50000),
                'r5': dict(id=5, name=("Rank 5: Chûsan", "(Famous)"), price=7500, ref=100, exp=100000),
                'r6': dict(id=6, name=("Rank 6: Yobidashi", "(High-Class Courtesan)"), price=10000, ref=120, exp=250000),
                'r7': dict(id=7, name=("Rank 7: Koshi", "(Nation famous)"), price=25000, ref=200, exp=400000),
                'r8': dict(id=8, name=("Rank 8: Tayu", "(Legendary)"), price=50000, ref=250, exp=800000)
            }

self.clientCastes = ['Beggar', 'Peasant', 'Merchant', 'Nomad', 'Wealthy Merchant', 'Clerk', 'Noble', 'Royal']

Basically it's a system of matching girls to customers, both might get livid if they are more than two ranks apart. We have 8 ranks for girls and 8 ranks for costumers BUT I would like to have more costumer types, that can be achieved in various ways obviously. There are consequences (sometimes severe) if you rank up girls too quickly, in fact you can loose your game because of it (run out of money).

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2014, 07:05:09 AM »
Ok, what about salary? How the game currently determines how much girls want per day?

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2014, 07:11:52 AM »
Ok, what about salary? How the game currently determines how much girls want per day?

Code: [Select]
        def expects_wage(self):
            """
            Amount of money each girl expects to get paid for her skillset.
            """
           
            wage = 0
           
            if self.occupation == 'Prostitute':
                bw = self.rank * 5 # Base wage
                sm = self.charisma/3 + self.refinement/2 + self.reputation/2 + self.fame/2 # Stats Mod
                osm = (self.anal + self.normalsex + self.blowjob + self.lesbian) / 2 # Occupational Stats M

                wage =  bw+sm+osm

            elif self.occupation == 'Stripper':
                bw = 20 + self.strip*2
                sm = self.charisma/2 + self.refinement/2 + self.reputation + self.fame/2 + self.agility/2
                osm = self.strip*4

                wage = bw+sm+osm

            elif self.occupation == 'ServiceGirl':
                bw = 15 + self.service*2
                sm = self.charisma/2 + self.agility/2 + self.refinement/2
                osm = self.service*3

                wage = bw+sm+osm

            elif self.occupation == 'Warrior':
                bw = 15 + self.attack*0.2 + self.defence*0.2
                sm = self.fame/2 + self.reputation*0.4
                osm = self.attack + self.defence + self.magic/2 + self.agility

                wage = bw+sm+osm

            else:
                for stat in self.stats:
                    if stat not in ["disposition", "libido", "joy", "health", "fatigue", "mood"]:
                        wage += getattr(self, stat)
                wage = wage/2       

            # Normalize:   
            wage = int(wage)
            if wage < 20:
                wage = 20
               
            return wage

You can pay more/less using the slider in girl control (from 0 - 200%), it carries penalties/benefits of it's own.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2014, 07:29:55 AM »
Well, that's too high anyway. I'll have to change it a bit.
Moreover, there should be a little "discount" for close to max disposition and joy, maybe penalty for low values too.

Btw, do these formulas consider bonuses and penalties from equipped items?

Offline Xela

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2014, 07:38:29 AM »
Moreover, there should be a little "discount" for close to max disposition and joy, maybe penalty for low values too.

That's pretty much what the slider is for. Wage is wage, it should not be lower if a boss is well-liked.

Btw, do these formulas consider bonuses and penalties from equipped items?

They do, but rewriting them not to conciser items will take 5 minutes.

Well, that's too high anyway. I'll have to change it a bit.

You're prolly right (that's why it's called balancing :) )

===================
I have no doubts that we'll balance the exonomics eventually, what really scares me is the experience/leveling system. Stats (girlsmeets/interactions/jobs) should not be too hard as well, maybe that's something CW can look into.

I've just tracked down and fixed a bug reported on FP forum, going to continue looking into balancing and difficulties while I have time.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Game Balancing - General
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2014, 08:07:16 AM »
Well, in our case it's not a fixed wage with a labor contract and stuff like irl, more like expected wage. But you probably right, instead of it we could reduce consequences of low wages for high disposition characters.

Equipped items... It's hard to say.
A hypothetical situation: a warrior girl saved some money to buy a better weapon to do her work better. Fair enough, with higher attack she can guard better, so she earned it.
But it also will prevent players from giving powerful items to girls. We already have a couple of people who prefer to equip rags on girls to reduce upkeep as much as possible.