My thoughts on Crazy's Mod

[Jacko]

Hey everyone.

This is a great game. I have easily spent hours and hours playing this game with my own custom girl packs. What follows are my thoughts and criticisms having spent quite a time investment into modding and playing WM.

The foundation of running a criminal enterprise/brothel/stripclub/porn company/arena company etc., is for the most part well done, but there are some design philosophy ideas I'd like to throw out.

The Data Question

How much data is too much data? I've noticed with the new patch (.05t) that there is a whole new tab under details that displays on a rating system the ability of the girls at each job. I have yet to find one use for this screen. What is the difference between a girl with a B in Stripping, and a girl with C in Stripping? If it is meant to just give a general idea of how good a girl is at a task isn't it easier to just look at her stats? Like Strip = 37%? I understand the attraction of having speadsheets of info about things, just for the sake of having them, but this screen really doesn't add anything new to the game and just seems like clutter.

It also brings up the question from a gameplay standpoint of whether or not I should even know these things about these girls. This game seems to be caught in a dichotomy between roleplaying game and management sim, and while this game does a pretty good job of riding the line, I'd like it to err toward roleplaying a brothel manager. This means I'd like omniscient type information to be hidden from the player, until they perform specific actions. There is all of this great and well written description in the game, that for the moment just serves as flavor text. I'd like to see the text more used as both flavor and function. Why ask a girl what she thinks of me, if I can just click on her name in girl management? It's worth thinking about these things and whether the role playing aspects of this game are just for fun, or actually a core mechanic of the game.

The most fun part of this game is the early game, where individual girls are important. Will they strip? Will they work in the brothel? Can I band them without "forcing" etc. You kind of get to know the girls in a more intimate way (I have custom girl packs which helps with this), and you actually feel like a brothel owner/criminal. I'd love it if I had to actually talk to the girls to find out what their preferences were, such as whether or not they're willing to work in a brothel, if they are "indifferent to all tasks" or if she "really loves combat". Once spoken to, (through "discuss her", maybe getting a different bit of information each time) It would be added to the information screen. Maybe when you "visit her bedroom" and ask her to strip, her stripping ability will be added to the list. Of course, some things should be available immediately. Looks, beauty, Charisma (sure), Level, etc. Mostly things you could tell just by looking at someone.Why would I know her sex skill just by looking at her? I understand this would be some real coding work, but I think it would add gameplay to the game, which gets stale after a while. I the process of getting to know your girls would be a fun gameplay element, and add to the challenge of managing the brothel. Because I use a girl pack with real girls, I have the idea that these are real girls, and I can immerse myself into the game much more than by using drawn girls. I'm dying for some gameplay mechanics that would compliment this.

Girls behavior

The challenge of running a brothel doesn't come from just managing the budget, or fighting off other gangs, a key element is managing the girls themselves, and it's a challenge which isn't fully represented int he game, leading to the game getting stale in the late game when all the other challenges are surmounted. Managing the girls in your brothel should be a challenge that is never fully overcome, people being people after all, unless every girl in your employ has "broken will". Here are some suggestions.

I'd love to see a hidden jealousy meter in the game. If a girl is in love with you, and you sleep with another girl, maybe she will act out for attention, such as not going to work, decline in happiness. One thing I liked in Sim Brothel was that your girl could have secret boyfriends. I'd love to see something like that in the game for girls who just think you're a "good, kind, employer." NTR is entirely possible in this game, and should be an element that is pumped up a little bit if you decide to neglect girls that are in love with you. This could also work between the girls, if you give one girl a nice room, or a gift, maybe the other girls get jealous and start to not like eachother. This could lead to fights, thefts of items, etc. If obedience > Jealousy they wouldn't press their luck with certain actions that would be sure to anger you. This would be some significant coding work but I think it would be another cool gameplay element.

Hiring Girls and Behavior

The ways to recruit girls are: walk around, slave auction, kidnapping1 (kidnap), kidnapping2 (convince), sell daughter (business), Daughter as payment (customer), Kidnap as payment (customer), Girl recruit, daughter (you), and daughter (girls). The way these girls are acquired should have a significant effect on their initial disposition toward you. The game does a bit of this, but not to any meaningful level.

Walk around girls

These girls come to you willingly. They may not know what they are in for, but they have begged you for work and shelter. So their initial disposition should be neutral in both fear and hate. Whether or not they are down for whoring should be indicate by their stats. Which brings me to a small point about that. It seems like too many girls are just fine with being whores, while in real life, most girls wouldn't be initially ok with that. It's a long process and a big hurdle for a girl to get into the life, and it should be represented better. The girls with the "elegant" trait are the only ones that have an initial aversion to it, and only that they "don't prefer it". Girls should not be willing to whore off the bat unless they are already whores. Only fear or drugs should get a girl to whore straight away, and then not very well. Working in the strip bar is usually my opening job for girls, and some girls resist but most girls should be okay with it. All in all, the ramp up is good in the game with regard to this, but I don't know if it's my imagination, or there is some code behind it. If it's just as simple as an obedience check I think it should be more complex, taking into account other factors like virginity, sex skill, level, etc.

Slave Auction

In my game slave girls are either pleasure slaves, or unfortunate slaves. In either case, their willingness to perform tasks should be based on their stats alone, and the game exhibits this well.

Kidnapped Girls (Gang action)

So kidnapped girls from gangs can either be kidnapped or convinced to join, and this is based on the charisma stat of the gang. Girls who are taken from their families should hate you, and probably fear you. They should be attempting to run away at every attempt, and should be quite rebellious dependent on the girl (traits such as "dependent" etc. can act as positive modifiers in the obedience check to counteract this). Girls who are kidnapped will take a lot of work to break and make obedient. Currently in the game they just think you're "annoying". I usually take their gold to make them hate me more, just for the gameplay. This gives them isn't nice, and "afraid he will hurt her". I think the fear level is good, but I think the hate should be higher. I mean, this girl was living with her husband or family or children and now she is in your dungeon. This is going to take some work. I'd like to see it better reflected. Convinced girls should essentially act as if they were recruited by the PC.

Sell Daughter (business, payment)

The story is that a business owner can't pay the extortion money and so he "sells" you his daughter. I think of it as the girl is being "lent" to you to pay off the owners debt. She is a slave without really being a slave. The girl understands what is required of her and her willingness to do the things required should be based on her stats without any outside modifiers, except for maybe a bit of fear. She should not try to escape unless abused or in her nature, out of deference to her father's wishes. Also as a side note I think this event happens much too often. It should be a rare event that a business owner allows you the use of his daughter. Maybe 1% per business, and after a check of 5% to see if it even occurs at all.

Daughter as payment for sex is different. Once again there are two methods, one where she is willingly sold, and another where she is kidnapped. When she is sold she probably will be rebellious, as her father is obviously a scumbag who is willing to sell his own daughter to pay for his whoring. The girl probably doesn't like you (annoying), and will want to run away at the first opportunity. She probably won't work as a whore either without some work.

Daughter kidnapped behavior should be the same as any other kidnapped girl. Hate, fear, disobedience, and taking the first opportunity to escape. Recruiting by Girl should work as normal.[size=78%]  [/size]

Daughters

Daughters by you should have an initial disposition that takes it's cues from the mother, and the payers disposition. If you are Evil, your own daughter is going to know this, and probably fear you. The same for the reverse. How she feels about you personally should be based on the mother's feelings about you. If the mother hates you, the daughter will probably hate you too. But then again, maybe not. There should be a bit of randomness thrown in with this. However, your daughter should never be in love with you initially, and should probably be adverse to having sex with you, on a scale based on stats of the girl. It will be easier to bang your nympho daughter than your elegant one. But it should be a bit of a challenge unless she is mind fucked. Even a nympho daughter will be a little hesitant to cross the line. Maybe also a change in the flavor text when speaking with her. Instead of calling you a good kind employer, she could say something more appropriate to you relationship.

Girls Daughters should take their cues entirely from the mother.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Many of these suggestions are not terribly difficult to code (well maybe the first suggestions), and would add a lot of character and immersion to the game. Right now the goal of the game is to have like 300 girls, 18 million gold, and 1400 businesses. While I can see that as a a good goal, it really sacrifices the potential gameplay of the premise.

A few quick final points off the top of my head:

Recapturing girls is too easy. I know for a fact if I put my gang on recapture that girl is recaptured the next week. That's no fun.

Spying on girls never reveals anything. Maybe this would be a cool way to impart information on some of the things going on in your brothel I talked about. "Karen is jealous of Anastasia". or "Eve has a secret lover". I remember in earlier versions of the game I would see them catch girls stealing money, but I haven't see anything like that in a long time.

Gang weapon levels should have flavor text. Knives, Pistols + Shotguns, Sub-Machine Guns and Rifles, Machine Guns. Whatever.

Girls are too happy all the time. Make happiness fluctuate based on events in combination with some clever piece of code that makes happiness move on a curve (or something). Girls shouldn't be the happiest they've ever been right after they've been kidnapped, or have just banged 9 dudes with a preference of hate working as a whore.

A lot of the jobs are redundant or not unique enough to warrant their own category. What's the difference between Brothel Whore and Whore in the Strip Club?

Day and Night are currently meaningless from a gameplay standpoint.

Some patch problems, all of my random girls are now lolitas and virgins. I've also noticed the code was changed with respect to virgins which is a change for the better as there are now less virgins running around among named girls. But still every "random girl" I get is a lolita virgin, which is screwing them up by adding 20 Beauty to every girl. I think that the game should leave virgin tagging and lolita tagging to the player making the girl pack unless it is one of two instances. If the random girl is the player's daughter or girl's daughter, then she should be tagged a virgin. If the age fields in the girls stats are less than 18, she should be tagged lolita. Lolita tag should be removed upon the girl has a child. (I think it works like this already, acutally), or when she turns 18. But damn this really needs to be fixed next patch. It's really annoying having half your girls be lolitas. Also every girl is 18, despite their ages in the maker being 19-21 or something similar. The only time a girl's age should be set to 18 is if she is your daughter, or girls daughter. The business owner's daughter can be 20, I don't see how that is a problem. I don't like seeing a brothel full of 18 yearolds. These are my biggest complaints about the game right now.

The UI change with the Next week button being moved to the top right is a little annoying. No other command button is in that position so I have to swing my mouse up at the end of every turn. On a big monitor that's a bit annoying. Before it was near the other buttons so it kept mouse movement to a minimum. Now it feels like a minor chore to click next week. I know it's not a big deal, but it just worked better before.

The same with the stat set up on the girl screen. It seems like things were moved around just for the sake of moving them around. I had no trouble before finding the stats on a girl, now I have to look at several useless gameplay stats just to find the important ones. Why is the "looks" stat like 5th on the list? It used to even have a bigger font and a percentage symbol to highlight it. Looks is an important stat to the player, if not the most important with telling a player about the girl. Only "Name" is more important. The other important stats are level, rebelliousness, Health, Happiness, and Tiredness. But looks should be right after "name" and carry some weight. It is the first thing you notice about a girl. So it should be the first thing I see. The old version did this perfectly. "Tiffany - Looks: 73%" The organization into sex and non-sex skills is fine, and better than the old version, but the old version had the profile perfect from a clarity of design standpoint. Please consider returning to that style, while keeping the new skill format.

Girls who are virgins should not be okay with being whores, or any aspect of working in your brothel apart from maybe advertising, cleaning, customer service (I have no idea what this job actually does), or "probably" waitress or barmaid in a strip club.

Just so you know, this is all constructive criticism. I love the game and the Crazy team(?) has done a great job with the original game and added some awesome gameplay elements. It's a great game and you've all done a great job. I hope you consider the things I've said.   

[Yukinohki]

How much data is too much data? I've noticed with the new patch (.05t) that there is a whole new tab under details that displays on a rating system the ability of the girls at each job. I have yet to find one use for this screen. What is the difference between a girl with a B in Stripping, and a girl with C in Stripping? If it is meant to just give a general idea of how good a girl is at a task isn't it easier to just look at her stats? Like Strip = 37%? I understand the attraction of having speadsheets of info about things, just for the sake of having them, but this screen really doesn't add anything new to the game and just seems like clutter.

I have a bit of a different view on that, i like the new screen more than the %, because each job is influenced by many things, basic stats like confidence or beauty,
experience stats like the different sex stats or medicine and traits.
You write that you like a roleplaying aspect in the game and this new job list does that in my opinion.
Its like you as her owner let your girl sing or strip and decide if she is good enough for this job.

I'd love to see a hidden jealousy meter in the game.

Hmm in my opinion that would need the implementation of a system which checks your interaction with other girls for each girl
and maybe a opinion stat not only towards you but also to other girls.
While i think that would be a nice idea, the amount of programming for that is way to high to expect it to happen.

Girl behaviour:
You are right with the whole hate/fear ideas for kidnapped girls
but you forget something from the background of the game when you say they should try to always flee.
They can't, because enslavement in this world is a magical process which binds the slave to his/her owner.
Or let's say its very hard to overcome that binding.
Many girls try to escape when you want to enslave them and many of these succeed if you don't have a guarding gang.

You are right with Happiness at 100% at the beginning is wrong, but in part, that gets handled by the girlsx files.
You can easily check your girlsx files and set every catacomb and slavemarket girl to 50% happiness as starting point.

I think happiness should change slower in both directions
unless the girl has an addiction or she experiences very bad events,
but addictions don't work correctly (in my opinion) at the moment anyway.
A girl with addiction goes down to 0% if she doesn't get her drug but the drug doesn't raise her happiness then
or at least not very much if i give her the stuff then.
And they also don't try to flee or steal the drugs or something, even if they aren't enslaved
at least not in my games, so i just cure them from their addiction.

Uniqueness of jobs:
Well you have different parts in your building
and i don't know the exact coding but i think having girls in each job slot in one part increases the happiness of your customers
and their opinion of the quality of your brothel.
So, yes whores in all 3 establishments do the same thing but they work for different groups of customers
and it is a good idea to fill the jobs in one establishment instead of spreading your first girls over each part of your brothel.

People who sell you their daughters happen to often, that i agree with
and if the guy says No and you follow them to kidnap their families, that should have a chance for bad events happening to you afterwards.
Maybe the guy had powerful friends and these are out for revenge against you.

I had no problems with lolita traits in my randomgirls, you could check your rgirlsx files and change them if needed,
Virgin is a different case, virgin gets decided by the game in addition to the trait, if your girls have very low sexual skills and are young
in the girl files.

Another thing i would like to see implemented, is a max number of rooms at least for the early brothels
or increase the price for new rooms for each room you buy, so it is cheap at the beginning but at a certain size is cheaper to open a new brothel
instead of increasing the existing ones, even if that means you need a new matron, new guards and so on.
At the moment the only reason to buy more than the first is the fact that the game becomes a bit laggy if you have 300 girls in your original brothel.

[aevojoey]

The Data Question

I agree, the job aptitude list is clutter.
I only use it once in a while, mostly for advertising and customer service.
Not all jobs are really straight forward in how good the girl would be in that job so it occasionally has its uses.
For most jobs it is not needed.
I have been planning on trimming it down similar to the job enjoyment but have not gotten to it yet.

I plan on expanding the player to actually be dynamic, changing based on how you play the game.
While knowing how the girl feels about the player is currently easy to determine, that is because the code for that is very simple at the moment.
As the code evolves, things should improve along these lines.

Girls behavior

I like the idea of a jealousy meter but it will require a lot of coding.
As for secret boyfriends and NTR that could also be done.
The girls interacting with eachother would exponentially bloat the save game.

Hiring Girls and Behavior

The slave auction already has had different texts based on your disposition added, the actual girl changes have not yet been done.
Some of the other methods do have a small change on how they feel towards you but not really much yet.

The initial setting for all jobs is either 0 or -10 on a scale of -100 to 100.
I can add some modifiers to these in the future so the "ramp up" will be a little steeper for some girls.

Kidnapped Girls do have an increased spirit and rebelliousness to start but it is not really noticable on most of them.

Sold Daughters are quite common later in the game I agree.
As the businesses only give you 10 gold each (unless you change it in config.xml), selling his daughter for 10 gold is really, really extreme.

Your Daughters, when implemented, will have their stats adjusted based on how you play the game.
Daughters birthed by the girls have stats kindof based on the mother but it can be improved.

Recapturing girls is too easy. I know for a fact if I put my gang on recapture that girl is recaptured the next week. That's no fun.

As I rarely have girls run away in my games, I have never had the need to recapture anyone.
I will look at this and see what I can do to it.

Spying on girls never reveals anything. Maybe this would be a cool way to impart information on some of the things going on in your brothel I talked about. "Karen is jealous of Anastasia". or "Eve has a secret lover". I remember in earlier versions of the game I would see them catch girls stealing money, but I haven't see anything like that in a long time.

Currently, spying only shows you how much gold the girl has.
The gangs can catch a girl stealing but it is rare.
I just finished cleaning the theft section of the code and made it a little more common.
For example, someone added a "slaves don't steal" part to the check for theft, I removed that.

Gang weapon levels should have flavor text. Knives, Pistols + Shotguns, Sub-Machine Guns and Rifles, Machine Guns. Whatever.

They will be.

Girls are too happy all the time. Make happiness fluctuate based on events in combination with some clever piece of code that makes happiness move on a curve (or something). Girls shouldn't be the happiest they've ever been right after they've been kidnapped, or have just banged 9 dudes with a preference of hate working as a whore.

I have already started looking into this. (5% health, 100% tired and still 100% happy???)

A lot of the jobs are redundant or not unique enough to warrant their own category. What's the difference between Brothel Whore and Whore in the Strip Club?

Each of the sections of the brothels have a whore job and a few "support" jobs.
Currently the "support jobs" don't really support anything but they will be updated.

Day and Night are currently meaningless from a gameplay standpoint.

Day shift has fewer customers than night shift and rape chance is higher at night.
That is about all that is different between the two for now.

Some patch problems, all of my random girls are now lolitas and virgins.

For random girls, if you set the virgin trait to 0 and the virgin stat to 0 the girl will not be a virgin.
The lolita is currently under age 20, removed on age up to 21 or upon giving birth (which adds milf).

The UI change with the Next week button being moved to the top right...

I moved the next week button to the top when I moved the back buttons to the same bottom corner.
When I would click the back button and the next week button was in the same general area, sometimes I would accidently click it.
I guess I felt it would be a way to make me think if there was something I was missing before clicking next week.

The same with the stat set up on the girl screen. It seems like things were moved around just for the sake of moving them around.

Actually, they kindof were.
When I was writing the code to line up the names and numbers in columns, I moved the things that were supposed to line up, together so I could make sure they actually lined up. I will arrange them back to a better order.
The % was removed for the same reason but I can put it back.

but the old version had the profile perfect from a clarity of design standpoint.

More details on what you mean about this would help.
If you mean the profile on the girls list page above the right buttons, I moved the feelings part to the top so when scrolling through the girls list, that text would always be in the same place.
If you mean something else, please be more specific.

Girls who are virgins should not be okay with being whores, or any aspect of working in your brothel apart from maybe advertising, cleaning, customer service (I have no idea what this job actually does), or "probably" waitress or barmaid in a strip club.

For the virgin part, I agree and looked into that a while back but only got around to adding something dealing with that to personal bed warmer.
Many stores have a "Customer Service" department, the place where you can get directions to certain areas, lodge complaints, and generally get help for whatever you need. This is what the "Customer Service" job does. It requires people skills, confidence and the ability to think on their feet. They basically help out customers. (This job is almost required when you have more customers than your whore girls can handle.)

You can easily check your girlsx files and set every catacomb and slavemarket girl to 50% happiness as starting point.

This is not really true because the code sets health, happy and tired to default when the girls are loaded but I can change that so it will not set defaults unless they are set to health=0, happy=0 or tired=100.

but addictions don't work correctly (in my opinion) at the moment anyway.
A girl with addiction goes down to 0% if she doesn't get her drug but the drug doesn't raise her happiness then
or at least not very much if i give her the stuff then.
And they also don't try to flee or steal the drugs or something, even if they aren't enslaved

Addictions are broken but I am currently fixing them.
The thief part was practically disabled because of the "slaves don't steal" thing that someone added, but I got rid of that.
If a girl's happiness is 0% for too long, she may try to kill herself.

Well you have different parts in your building
and i don't know the exact coding but i think having girls in each job slot in one part increases the happiness of your customers
and their opinion of the quality of your brothel.
So, yes whores in all 3 establishments do the same thing but they work for different groups of customers
and it is a good idea to fill the jobs in one establishment instead of spreading your first girls over each part of your brothel.

Currently, the majority of the jobs are independent of each other so where you have the girls does not really matter, "Brothel Whore", "Hall Whore" and "Strip Club Whore" all do basically the same thing.
In the future, the different sections of the brothels will have effects on the other jobs in that section but the customer pool will always be the same pool for each individual brothel.

and if the guy says No and you follow them to kidnap their families, that should have a chance for bad events happening to you afterwards.
Maybe the guy had powerful friends and these are out for revenge against you.

I like that idea but it will take some time for anything like that will get into the game.

Another thing i would like to see implemented, is a max number of rooms at least for the early brothels or increase the price for new rooms for each room you buy, so it is cheap at the beginning but at a certain size is cheaper to open a new brothel instead of increasing the existing ones, even if that means you need a new matron, new guards and so on.

As soon as I removed the limit on the number of rooms, I regretted it.
I already plan on limiting the number of rooms per building for .06 but have not done it for .05 because it could crash existing games.
As you will have to start a new game when you switch to .06, this will not be a problem.

[Jacko]

Thanks for your reply. I meant it all constructively. Thank you for all of your hard work on the game and I'm looking forward to new releases!


With the design of the profile I just meant to say that the old style worked fine. I do like the new splitting of the types of skills between sexual and non-sexual, but the upper portion of the girl's profile was better before. It seemed like it drew your eye to the looks stat. Maybe that was because of the percent sign. I'm not sure I just preferred it.


As far as the next week button, it is really just a minor complaint. I can see your reasoning behind moving it. It has a bit more finality to it now.


I really do think that girls shouldn't be classified as lolita unless they are designated in the girlsx file, but thank you for the tip about virgins. If I set lolita to zero will I be able to designate them as non-lolitas in the girlsx file as with virgins? Basically overwriting the code? 

[Yukinohki]

Edit: Post deleted, because it made no sense.
I did not see aevojoeys answer despite its beeing here.

[aevojoey]

I really do think that girls shouldn't be classified as lolita unless they are designated in the girlsx file, but thank you for the tip about virgins. If I set lolita to zero will I be able to designate them as non-lolitas in the girlsx file as with virgins? Basically overwriting the code? 

When a random girl is created, if age is set below 18 lolita is added and if age is above 20 lolita is removed.
Virgin, if not set with either trait or stat, then the sex skills are tested for and it is set.
If age is above 25 and they are not a virgin, Milf is added.

[Lurker]

When a random girl is created, if age is set below 18 lolita is added and if age is above 20 lolita is removed.
Virgin, if not set with either trait or stat, then the sex skills are tested for and it is set.
If age is above 25 and they are not a virgin, Milf is added.

The lolita thing makes sense but the age for Milf is way to low if you ask me. xD A milf is someones whos had a child and is hot.... And if they havnt had a child a Milf in porn is generally ATLEAST 35+.

[0nymous]

A lot of fair points, even if I disagree with some.
Uh, I'm no dev, just an idea guy (and maybe later script writer, once 0.6 comes out), but if butting in with my opinions can help the general outcome of WM, I'm up for discussion.

What is the difference between a girl with a B in Stripping, and a girl with C in Stripping?

The basic idea is for the girl with B to earn more money, become less tired and less unhappy when doing that job, I assume.

If it is meant to just give a general idea of how good a girl is at a task isn't it easier to just look at her stats? Like Strip = 37%?

What about jobs that don't have  a correlative, separate skill? Like barmaid or waitress? That's exactly what the job grade system is for. To give you an estimate  of how effective a girl would be at a certain  job based on her skills.

I understand the attraction of having speadsheets of info about things, just for the sake of having them, but this screen really doesn't add anything new to the game and just seems like clutter.

I, for one, like spreadsheets. The game is about management. The more things I can overview and manage, the better.

One thing I liked in Sim Brothel was that your girl could have secret boyfriends.

?? Which Sim Brothel? I used to be confident that I played all of them but I remember no such thing anywhere. I must know.


And on the player interaction with girls in general  - it sounds great in theory, but what about later in the game, when you have as much as 50 girls spread out throughout different jobs and buildings? Making sure every single one is not throwing a fit because you're not giving her enough attention is a bit meh.

These girls come to you willingly. They may not know what they are in for, but they have begged you for work and shelter. So their initial disposition should be neutral in both fear and hate.

And why should every girl be like that? The fear or hate should be varied between various personalities of the girls. Maybe based on their traits?

It seems like too many girls are just fine with being whores, while in real life, most girls wouldn't be initially ok with that. It's a long process and a big hurdle for a girl to get into the life, and it should be represented better. The girls with the "elegant" trait are the only ones that have an initial aversion to it, and only that they "don't prefer it". Girls should not be willing to whore off the bat unless they are already whores.

You're forgetting the part where you have to torture for weeks and/or brand a girl as a slave before you're getting her rebeliousness low enough for her to be effective. Unless you buy a girl at a slave market - but girls like that are already used to obeying, no?
On the other hand... convincing a girl to become a whore is a bit simplistic at the moment... even if Crossgate is a fictional setting and not really a first world country-like environment that I'm sure most of us are used to, where there's an extreme social stigma associated to being a lady for the night.
Working on the girl to be willing to earn money with her body is something you should definitely work towards - a kind of an "unlock" for her to become a whore.
It would also give some meaning to the less extreme jobs - barmaid, waitress, stripper, that, while paying less, would be available from the get-go for the girl.
Whether you "unlock" the whore option through brutality and cruelty, sweet words or promises of riches is something of an option for the player too. I know aevo is working on a morality system for the player - there's an opportunity here.




I generally agree with the notions that the game lacks challenge and difficulties to overcome, especially later, when you're swimming in money.  Changing this would mean severe changes in gameplay and balancing IMO.  Talking about the stats system, mainly - with hard limits being lesser or higher than 100 depending on traits and items.

[Jacko]

When a random girl is created, if age is set below 18 lolita is added and if age is above 20 lolita is removed.
Virgin, if not set with either trait or stat, then the sex skills are tested for and it is set.
If age is above 25 and they are not a virgin, Milf is added.

Yes, I tried to put a zero percent chance for lolita and virgin with my 18 yo random girls in the editor, but they still come out as lolitas and virgins. Is there a sure fire way to create an 18 random girl that is not a lolita or a virgin? Right now it is impossible to create a "normal" girl who is 18 and has had sex only a few times (say sex skill 10), and not have her be classified as a lolita virgin. That's my biggest problem. I don't see why the game needs to take control away from the player when the player has all of the skills through WM edit to create girls to his liking. If the player wants a random chance for the 18 yo girl to be lolita or virgin he could simply specify that with the editor.

?? Which Sim Brothel? I used to be confident that I played all of them but I remember no such thing anywhere. I must know.

I played a version probably five years ago that had a text even that x had a secret lover. It wasn't a well defined gameplay mechanic, just a small flavor text.

I, for one, like spreadsheets. The game is about management. The more things I can overview and manage, the better.

As I said, the game rides a line between RPG (a real RPG based on player choices and story, not a new style RPG based on stats and figures), and management sim. I've never made the decision to make a girl a whore just because she'd be good at being a whore (or any other job), just based on the stats provided in that screen. I prefer to play this game as a role playing game, meaning that I act as my character would. I don't play this game with the goal of "beating the game" (honestly that is too easy, and there is no real end to the game anyway, which is fine), I play it to tell a story of the girls of mundiga and the Pink Petal brothel. Any gameplay which enhances the theme, story, and mood of the game is right up my alley, as this game is intended (at it's core) to be a sexual fantasy, not a management game where you efficiently make widgets. Not to say that managing the brothel isn't a core mechanic, but it should not take away from the core idea that the game is an RPG  where you character (in his father's footsteps, etc.) is attempting to be a Whore master. Anyway, how challenging is it to simply look at a screen of stats and put girls in their proper places? It's the gameplay equivalent of the toddler's toy of putting the correctly sized shape into the correctly sized hole. There is no nuance or deviation, and to a person who enjoys those things, it quickly becomes a stale gameplay experience. But, in the end, the spreadsheet screen is only a very minor issue, and honestly I could take it or leave it. Not a big deal. 

And why should every girl be like that? The fear or hate should be varied between various personalities of the girls. Maybe based on their traits?

Traits should always be relevant to the character and your interactions with them. But why would a girl hate you for offering her a place to sleep, food, and a job? Why would she fear you? If anything, recruiting should give her positive modifiers to love and fear, being that you've basically just saved her from the streets.

Making sure every single one is not throwing a fit because you're not giving her enough attention is a bit meh.

Well, that is actually what management is at it's core. People management, which is what being a whore master is, is precisely this: managing peoples moods and characteristics. Not every girl would need your attention, but the ones who are "In love with you" certainly would, wouldn't they? There should be a consequence to having so many girls fall in love with you. Managing 50+ girls should be difficult. Let's face it, earning money in this game is not hard, so once you've earned all of your money, where is the gameplay? Clicking next turn and watching your treasury go up and looking at pictures of naked chicks is not compelling gameplay, which is why there needs to be actual management challenges. That's why beginning of this game is the most interesting, as it has the most challenge. My ideas are meant to add gameplay at the later stages of the game, because at the moment, having 50+ girls in this game is game over - I won. 

[Yukinohki]

My largest game until now was with more than 600 girls when I stopped playing,
and at least 100 were at "True Love" State,
so it depends on everyones style of playing and taste.
No its not realistic, but the game itself is not.
Its a world where endbosses of all gameworlds meet to chat and drink coffee.
For me its a bit more like an adult pokemon "gonna catch them all" game.

If i'm more into Roleplaying Slavemaster mood I play
Slavemaker (Version 3.4 at the moment)
where you train only one girl at a time with many possible interactions
and custom unique stories for many girls.

I think you could leave parts of the interactions with girls to custom scripts
instead of changing the base game.
I tried some things with the existing original script editor
but its not very userfriendly.
Creating a meetscript with a bit roleplaystory and modifying girlstats
according to your decisions is easy
(reducing happiness and health if you are mean to her for example).
In theory there are many more triggers who could initiate a script
but not all are working (script after kidnapping a girl for example did not when I tried it)

If you modify a girl file with the character editor you can set virgin to No
and she won't be one even with lower sex stats but that doesn't help with lolitas.
I think its the same for random girl files.

[0nymous]

I prefer to play this game as a role playing game, meaning that I act as my character would.

Whoremaster has its origins as a branch to the original title that spawned dozens of different project: Sim Brothel. The "Sim" stands for simulation.
If RPG was the focus, it'd be called Brothel RPG.
Don't take my answer as a hostile one: improving and adding to the system of player stats and interaction is a good idea - but a full on RPG approach shouldn't be the main focus, management should be. In my humble opinion, of course.

If you're looking for a more RPG-heavy experience, the post above me has an excellent recommendation.
http://slavemaker3.blogspot.com/?zx=337552f2268e6b41
In Slavemaker 3.4 you choose your own personal character's race (and the options are quite rich), gender, portrait and then there's stats, skills, talents and all that kind of classic RPG jazz.
Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't want to see all that in WM, it's just there's many things I'd rather see before that.
Aevo's working on a morality system and some other player stats for now. That's enough for me.
After all, if you're a true RPG player, you can easily make up for everything player customization lacks in with your imagination.

as this game is intended (at it's core) to be a sexual fantasy, not a management game where you efficiently make widgets.

According to who? You? Because I disagree. To me, the game is meant to be exactly what you're saying it's not supposed to be.

Well, that is actually what management is at it's core. People management, which is what being a whore master is, is precisely this: managing peoples moods and characteristics.

Do you see the contradiction you make here in comparison to your quoted words above these?

Managing 50+ girls should be difficult.

Maybe, but it shouldn't be tedious or annoying, like reassigning them to day/night shifts is without a matron. And that's what making sure every girl doesn't NTR you behind your back sounds like. Especially after you "clear" or "finish" them by maxing love and all the stats as desired.
On the other hand... leaving girls like that to do their job and completely forgetting about them doesn't sound very appealing as well. Some options to perform regular "maintenance" of your end-game polished ladies would be potentially another gameplay mechanic spicing things up.

Let's face it, earning money in this game is not hard, so once you've earned all of your money, where is the gameplay?

Most of my points revolve around the idea that the gameplay before you "earn all your money" should be improved, difficulty and variety-wise. So, the moment when you achieve everything possible comes as late as possible.
And then, during (and before, too) late game, you should have options to spend all that money. Big money. LODS EMONE.

My ideas are meant to add gameplay at the later stages of the game, because at the moment, having 50+ girls in this game is game over - I won. 

Again though, that's just you. Either download more girl packs or work more on making your own. I personally find the second option even more fun that the game at the moment. And then I just start a new one when the next big patch hits and I have a fresh batch of custom-made girls ready.

Traits should always be relevant to the character and your interactions with them. But why would a girl hate you for offering her a place to sleep, food, and a job? Why would she fear you? If anything, recruiting should give her positive modifiers to love and fear, being that you've basically just saved her from the streets.

You're contradicting yourself again. Compare this to what you wrote in the OP:

These girls come to you willingly. They may not know what they are in for, but they have begged you for work and shelter. So their initial disposition should be neutral in both fear and hate.

It seems like too many girls are just fine with being whores, while in real life, most girls wouldn't be initially ok with that. It's a long process and a big hurdle for a girl to get into the life, and it should be represented better.

So, you're giving them an opportunity to earn money and have a roof over their head - but in exchange they have to whore themselves. Which, as you stated yourself, is no small deal.
Which, in turn, brings me back to my previous point - the initial reaction of a girl should be trait-dependant. A meek,shy girl would be naturally afraid of you and her current situation. An aggresive, dominant girl wouldn't be all too happy about selling her body, despite accepting your offer. Also keep in mind that these girls aren't exactly allowed to come and go as they please - once they become whores they can only run away. And you send a bunch of thugs to drag her back in. To your dungeon. Which serves the purpose of imprisoning people against their will and torturing them. Yep, you're not really a nice guy in this game, you know?

[Jacko]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. If you want to cherry pick things I've said that were built off other things I said that you didn't quote and you've come to conclusion that I've contradicted myself, you need to re-read my posts. For whatever reason, you've misinterpreted what I've said. I said the game straddles the line of management sim and RPG, which it quite clearly does. You even remarked about your enthusiasm about the coming morality system, which is an RPG mechanic. If you want to condescend to me and say that I don't know that "sim" mean simulation, or I don't understand game genres or the mechanics inherent to them, there is no need to converse with me any further.


In any case, this isn't a debate and I feel no need to argue with you about what I've said or it's meaning. Everything I've written has been clear enough to those not looking for conflict. This is feedback for the developers based on my experiences of playing this game for 5 years through it's many iterations, and what the game means to me. 

[0nymous]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. If you want to cherry pick things I've said that were built off other things I said that you didn't quote and you've come to conclusion that I've contradicted myself, you need to re-read my posts.

Apply yourself to your own advice, because if what I've quoted aren't contradictions then I don't know what is one. And don't hide behind the context of your wording.

I said the game straddles the line of management sim and RPG, which it quite clearly does

Quite clearly, that is your opinion, once again. Right now there's barely any RPG aspects in it at all.  Do I have to explain what "RPG" stands for, or are you going to get defensive and claim that I'm condescending to you again? Because no, I wasn't trying to be that before, I was just trying to strengthen my point of role playing having always a minor role in the game, ever since its earliest iterations.  Not my fault you read that as a personal attack.

For whatever reason, you've misinterpreted what I've said.

No, I'm pretty sure I haven't. If you're going to make arguments, be prepared to defend them. Don't pull off the "I don't  want no trouble!" or "You just don't understand!" cards. I'm not a dev, I'm just someone who doesn't agree with only SOME of your statements, which are no less valuable than mine.  Prove it to me that I'm wrong. 

In any case, this isn't a debate and I feel no need to argue with you about what I've said or it's meaning. Everything I've written has been clear enough to those not looking for conflict. This is feedback for the developers based on my experiences of playing this game for 5 years through it's many iterations, and what the game means to me.

There isn't many of us on this forum. The more discussion we have about the game in general, the better, regardless if it's made between two useless idea guys like me and you or devs, because the latter may be influenced by the former.

[aevojoey]

Apply yourself to your own advice, because if what I've quoted aren't contradictions then I don't know what is one. And don't hide behind the context of your wording.

Contradictions are not contradictions if they are corrections.

Quite clearly, that is your opinion, once again. Right now there's barely any RPG aspects in it at all.  Do I have to explain what "RPG" stands for

RPG can stand for "Role Playing Game", "Roll Playing Game" or even "Rocket Propelled Grenade"
Its meaning does not really matter.
It is a game.
But the "Role" you are playing it that of a Whore Master making it an RPG₍₁₎ and the "Roll" of the g_Dice makes it an RPG₍₂₎.
Not really an RPG₍₃₎.


So.....   Changing the subject.

I rearranged the girl details and made the % sign after the numbers optional.
Until I update WME to add the % option useable, just add "ShowPercent=True" or "ShowPercent=False" to the fonts section of the config.xml. (false is default because that is the way I prefer having it when I play  )
I also removed the lolita and milf checks in random girl creation entirely.

[HuiBui]

Meanwhile there's 0.06.03 released and a lot of things have been changed during the last months.
I would like to give you some of my thougths about this game(projekt).

For me it's absolutely great to see with which fast speed the project is driven forward. Thanks to all which are giving support.
On the other hand I'm a little bit afraid about the direction in which this game moves. Well, afraid may not be the right wording, it's more like feeling a little bit unhappy?
But I'm not a native speaker so its hard for me to write about slightly differentiation of feelings.

Meanwhile the game contains so many sidearms , and they are still are growing, like farm,etc.. which I personally would not expect in a Whoremaster game..
I can live with that but what I really would like to have is a better support with  already existing working parts of the game..
For example: there is a clinic, in which they can help girls , and there a very fantastic methods  they can help the girls therewith; but very common things, like remove scratches etc are not included. Therefor you have to buy and use an item. That feels strange for me.
Also, all diseases and addictions should be able to be removed in a clinic. So every single player can decide to remove the item potions from the game or just leave them in.

What I wat to say is : To add new things into the game is fine , but all new things have to be checked with existing things and these have to be updated then with priority to keep the game balanced  .
For me its most importent  to keep the game logic on a high level , that lets  me having more fun to play the game.
And at the end I want to play the game ( during  the game is still in development) and not only to check the game for bugs.

Some weeks ago I kindly asked to implemente an order which shows a torture pic , without having the hardcoded thing in background when using the order "player tortured target girl"
Is that already done? ( scripting)
I've already noticed that the hardcode for the scripteditor is obvisiously not availably anymore? Is there someone who is be able (and is willing  )
to write a new, and better, one ?
To give you an impact about the possibilities of scripting which could make the game much more interesting I will upload a very modified meettowngirlscript.
 In there  the player will ask the girls name before he decides to hire her . And possible that she will denie..

Ok guys , just my thoughts .

HuiBui