Author Topic: <-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept  (Read 172049 times)

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Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »
Are you sure that we will have use for all those new categories?
I want to ask, because pics with groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles (I'm personally against them) and some others couldn't fit in the old categories, so I didn't download them for any of the girls and adding them now would mean some additional work.

Categories like groping, foreplay. I actually went through your packs and found some decent candidates for those categories. Also, in the software, it;s just one extra click, so it should be a big deal. Like always, if you have an alternative approach or system, lets see it, maybe it's better and makes more sense.

- We still have some stuff to discuss and nothing has been said on tags layout yet, unless everyone wants to make their own version, we need to come up with a setup.

Well, like I've said, we work on what we're feel that we're comfortable with. I will personally support lolicon, bestiality, bdsm and basically everything in the spirit of the original WM, but that will be after 1.0 because there is a lot of code, events, quest manager system, gui enhancements that have to be written as it is. Also stuff that is not low friendly in some countries will always be released as extension packs and never with the game itself.

So for now, we'll make simpler packs and normal events, we have more than enough to do :)
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2013, 03:36:17 PM »
Also, Rudi requested that if at all possible, we should use his categories as much as possible so unification and transfer between games is possible, obviously many thing can be straightened out with code though. But most of his tags are useful, although, I have many objections to style... it should be more generic if used for multiple games
Just to be clear: I am definitely open for suggestions on better tags. Some that are needed are probably not yet in there, others might not be necessary. The meaning of some tags might not be obvious, so they should be renamed. I'm curious what you guys will come up with. It would definitely be great if Pytherworld and PyTFall could use the same tags.
Regarding style I suppose you are talking about the user interface and visual presentation of the available tags?

5) Good catch on seamen covered girls... we'll need to think of a tag for that.
I always thought that was called bukkake? The wikipedia article (they have an article on basically anything...) suggests that bukkake is the name for the sexual act and a woman covered in semen would be the result. Close enough, don't you think?

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2013, 03:37:37 PM »
How is it up to me if I am not the main pack maker for the game...?
It's a matter of several minutes per pack for gelboruu/danboruu. And a lot of characters have such images. You have to decide if you want to make such events in the game. Maybe after 1.0 though.

groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles
I didn't download groping/foreplay and tentacles either, and I have to say there are not many groping/foreplay pics for my characters anyway.
As for semen-covered, they are universal non-les pics, so of course I downloaded them  :)

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2013, 03:42:35 PM »
I always thought that was called bukkake?
I believe bukkake is subtype of group sex (I wonder if I should actually link some examples from my packs...), while s-covered picture could mean very intense normal sex or even bj.

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2013, 03:43:55 PM »
The meaning of some tags might not be obvious,

Customizable tool-tip or special field for explanations would be a decent addon even for more obvious tags and combinations for upcoming versions of the tagger.

PS, in context of tags, I do not understand the difference between between passive and active sex categories at the moment, do we need -/+ at all?

Regarding style I suppose you are talking about the user interface and visual presentation of the available tags?

Yeap.

bukkake is the name for the sexual act and a woman covered in semen would be the result. Close enough, don't you think?

Depends on where you get the definition from and how much Japanese porn called bukkake you've actually seen :) I think you're WAY off here...
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Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »
Maybe after 1.0 though.

Sounds good.

As for semen-covered, they are universal non-les pics, so of course I downloaded them  :)

That's in, I already got a couple of ideas for job events for it.
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2013, 04:31:49 PM »
PS, in context of tags, I do not understand the difference between between passive and active sex categories at the moment, do we need -/+ at all?
"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.
Some sex tags would not need it. For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons. I added the + anyway for consistency.


Depends on where you get the definition from and how much Japanese porn called bukkake you've actually seen :) I think you're WAY off here...
I went with what Wikipedia says, so I must be right ;)
My exposure to Japanese porn has been limited. Based on the usage of the term on American porn sites, "several/many guys ejaculating on a girl" seems to be quite accurate though.

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2013, 04:37:26 PM »
"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.
Some sex tags would not need it. For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons. I added the + anyway for consistency.

Bloody confusing...

I went with what Wikipedia says, so I must be right ;)
My exposure to Japanese porn has been limited. Based on the usage of the term on American porn sites, "several/many guys ejaculating on a girl" seems to be quite accurate though.

So Dark's images are not bukkake...
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2013, 04:49:47 PM »
Bloody confusing...
Better/more convenient solutions are always welcome :)

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2013, 04:59:07 PM »
For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons.

Yeah... girls are headless twats... no arguing there.

"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.

My guess is that will not be required. Simpler is often better. I still think simply adding passive/active tags would be a better bet and avoid tag repeats.
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2013, 01:52:19 AM »
Yeah... girls are headless twats... no arguing there.
So, you are basically saying: If a woman sucks a man's dick, she "gets a blowjob"? That's bad English. AFAIK, the expression is to "give a blowjob", because its an active act.


My guess is that will not be required. Simpler is often better. I still think simply adding passive/active tags would be a better bet and avoid tag repeats.
That depends on how unambiguous you want the tag information to be.
Consider girl on girl action: You are making an image pack of Belldandy and have an image where Belldandy fingers the pussy of an unnamed girl. You tag it with "finger pussy" and "one girl". On another image, you see Belldandy being fingered by an unnamed girl. Again, you tag it with "finger pussy" and "one girl". Without differentiating between passive and active acts, those two different situations get the same tags.
Now, adding an "active" or "passive" tag to the image would solve the above problem, that's true, but only because it's a simple situation. Add another sex act happening at the same time and it breaks, because you don't know to which act the "active" or "passive" tag refers to.
Consider Belldandy having a good time with the girl from above and after warming up with fingering they start licking pussies too. As soon as one starts doing something the other girl does not do, you can't tell who does what from the tags.

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2013, 02:48:06 AM »
So, you are basically saying: If a woman sucks a man's dick, she "gets a blowjob"? That's bad English. AFAIK, the expression is to "give a blowjob", because its an active act.

If we were writing an essay to be graded... I just googled "girl gets a blowjob"
and there seem to be enough confused people on the topic.

That depends on how unambiguous you want the tag information to be.

To be able to describe every picture in detail, we are likely to need thousands of tags, it's not practical.

Consider Belldandy having a good time with the girl from above and after warming up with fingering they start licking pussies too. As soon as one starts doing something the other girl does not do, you can't tell who does what from the tags.

Like in animation? If not, don't tag it either way if you can't tell.
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2013, 03:41:32 AM »
If we were writing an essay to be graded... I just googled "girl gets a blowjob"
and there seem to be enough confused people on the topic.
Google gives me 7 million hits for that term, I give you that. However, I suspect most of these hits will be girls getting their pussy licked, not sucking some guys dick. If you use "blowjob" for every kind of oral sex, it makes the tag less useful because it carries less specific information.
The goal of the whole tagging system is to provide information on the images in form of keywords. Yes, this is about language. If we choose to use terms with several meanings, it becomes unclear what the image actually shows.

To be able to describe every picture in detail, we are likely to need thousands of tags, it's not practical.
Let me answer you with an equally ridiculous statement: We don't need detail.  Lets just label every image with sexual content with the tag "sex" and we only need one tag! Great, right?

Now let's stop playing dumb for a moment and think: The more detailed the description of the image gets, the more tags we will need for it, that is obvious. If you want to make the argument that +- sex tags are too much detail for PyTFall, that's fine. Don't pretend I want to use thousands of tags to describe the images just so you can tell me that is not practical. I know that already and you know that I know ;)

However, I also know that descriptions of group sex scenes (starting with threesomes) are very hard without +- sex tags. Even with them, they are hard, so I've been thinking about alternate solutions - unsuccessfully, so far.

Like in animation? If not, don't tag it either way if you can't tell.
Come on...
Nobody is talking about animation. I am telling you that you will get the same tags for images with different contents. Consider this, using your active/passive approach:
Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl, while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl, while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2013, 04:44:38 AM »
Google gives me 7 million hits for that term, I give you that. However, I suspect most of these hits will be girls getting their pussy licked, not sucking some guys dick. If you use "blowjob" for every kind of oral sex, it makes the tag less useful because it carries less specific information.

Try the very first video, it's quite good :)

The goal of the whole tagging system is to provide information on the images in form of keywords. Yes, this is about language. If we choose to use terms with several meanings, it becomes unclear what the image actually shows.

We just have "blowjob" tag, without give/get.

Let me answer you with an equally ridiculous statement: We don't need detail.  Lets just label every image with sexual content with the tag "sex" and we only need one tag! Great, right?

It only sounds ridiculous from the perspective of the tagging system you wrote, otherwise, plenty of good games can be found that did just that and were really advanced logically otherwise. (what I mean to say is that it is possible to work with a LOT of tags and possible to work with 1), point is to find the acceptable middleground.

Now let's stop playing dumb for a moment and think: The more detailed the description of the image gets, the more tags we will need for it, that is obvious. If you want to make the argument that +- sex tags are too much detail for PyTFall, that's fine. Don't pretend I want to use thousands of tags to describe the images just so you can tell me that is not practical. I know that already and you know that I know ;)

I've been thinking about it and came to conclusion that creating a system that would search for what you need from to many tags, is almost impossible as a number of tags will always be missing and you are bound to end up getting odd pictures. This can be mitigated somewhat by using "main categories" that will be checked primarily during the sorting.

Otherwise, a decent solution: create a number of unique tags for more/most demanding jobs and events and use that instead of trying to match tags to event content (texts, locations etc.). Will not be universal, but will work really well I expect.

However, I also know that descriptions of group sex scenes (starting with threesomes) are very hard without +- sex tags. Even with them, they are hard, so I've been thinking about alternate solutions - unsuccessfully, so far.

You're right... close to impossible without going overboard with tag descriptors and making images almost impossible to call as required. I think any attempt to describe these without the pinpoint tags for events will be either be to complicated for many modders to understand or will mean a very large leap towards the "thousands tags".

Come on...
Nobody is talking about animation. I am telling you that you will get the same tags for images with different contents. Consider this, using your active/passive approach:
Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl, while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl, while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"

Sorry, I misunderstood what you've meant by passive and active. I though active meant that the main character of the event is taking an active part in an act and passive that she's not (as in being totally receptive in the nature of the event).

Like you've said in the above statement and I said when I requested customizable tooltips, it's important to know what tags actually mean to the game.

IMHO: I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.
From perspective of what's being done to the MC (active/passive means if she's active in the scene like giving a helping hand or doing something other than receiving the "punishment")

Im_1: Should be: "lesbian", "finger pussy" <-- if we have the tag (we prolly should), "active" + other relevant tags
Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2013, 05:32:16 AM »
Poor google...

I believe we don't need that kind of accuracy for les and group. If the image is not quite correspond to the text, it means that described event happened before or will happen later (use your imagination, dammit!  :D ).

Hundreds of tags could be great for 25000+ pics characters like Touhou, but they are unnecessary for 200+ pics characters, which often have 2-4 bj or les pics at best. Either we won't use most of events for them (and this is quite boring), or pictures won't  correspond to the text most of the time anyway.

What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?
What about this or that pics, which tags we need for them?