Pink Petal Games
Feedback => New Features => Topic started by: DocClox on July 09, 2010, 03:56:36 AM
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Here's a list of the wards I was considering for Crossgate.
Sleaze Street:
Crossgate's slum district is centered on Sleaze Street. This is the player's starting ward. Goods and slaves are traded at the Fleamarket.
Crossgate Quays:
The Docks. Lots of work for whores from sailors on shore leave. There are rumours of a Black Market that trades in contraband and goods stolen from the docks.
Pinchpenny Lane
Crossgate's commercial centre. Named for both for the merchants apparent determination to test every single coin they get, and also for the pickpockets that work the district. The city's main goods and slave markets are found here.
Spark End
A tiny enclave at the far end of Pinchpenny Lane, Spark End is home to Crossgate's community of arificers and technologists. No formal markets, but if you don't mind going door to door you can occasionally find some interesting items.
Pentagle Square
Pentangle Square is named for one open plaza (it's actually round!) permanently inscribed with a summoner's pentagram, a leftover from some particularly ambitious ceremony planned by a long gone wizard. The city's arcane practitioners gravitate to this region.
Nobb Hill
Up above the stench of the main city you'll find the homes of the Crossgate elite. Lots of money to be had here, but any commerce is very descrete and usually by arrangement only.The city watch tend to intervene in gang warfare in this area.
Crossgate Keep
The fortress the city grew up around. Home to the watch barracks and the city governor.
Shambletown
A chaotic shanty town that's grown up outside the city walls.
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That sounds really awesome. Could probably think of a half-dozen other possible things to add, but that would be very... congested. I think that's a really nice balance of interesting but not overwhelming.
On another note, Spark End for the inventors? You're a Girl Genius fan, aren't you? ;)
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I'm a Phil Foglio, but I never really read Girl Genius for some reason. Did that have a Spark End? I must have picked up sibconsciously.
I'm tempted to change it now. Pity, it's a great name...
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No, but they refer to their mad genius inventors as having a "Spark" or being a "Spark". I think it's a great name too, even better in that light.
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What about adding some 'ethnic' flavour? Something in southern USA border fashion (Desperados Quarter, Buena Vista Square), or Hong Kong cultural gang mix (Triads Alley, Midori Market)... Could be exotic, or may be not.
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Hmmm.... could do. On the other hand, it would place some constraints on the gangs you'd expect to find there, and I want to leave room on the map screen for outlying towns later on. So I think I'll work with what I have for now. Maybe we could have a triad town down the coast.
Eventually, I'd like to have a zoomable map, or a scrollable one, and then there'd be room for some more wards.
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how would these work, exactly?
are they just areas to control, do they have some specific features?
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Each area is locked and has a specific event needed before it can be unlocked. After that there's a special activitiy involving the player's girls or gangs (depending on the activity) and then he can operate inside the new area.
Most wards are home to one of the player's rivals. Before he can strike at their power base, he needs to gain access to the ward.
Most wards will have a goods or slave market with some degree of specialisation. If you want a robot slave, you might have more luck in spark end; pentangle has more magic items; Drugs are cheapest at the black market, and so on.
You'll need to assign gangs to a particular ward. The gang limit is going to need to be raised - maybe add +2 for each new ward.
And of course we can make general events depend on having access to a particular ward.
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May help with graphics / images / pics.
But first, it could be good to think a bit more about the city general look.
It's close to sea? has a river? mountains / hills?
Middle Ages city model? European-Gothic town? Arabic kasbah?
Think of cities featured in films, or imaginary cities in games. TES III Morrowind towns and cities were interesting.
Then draw a sketch, develop some history remarks (history affects town growing and shape, adds flavour just like ward names) and make someone draw properly a plan at 1200x1200.
I did a sample 5min sketch:
(http://i.imagehost.org/0557/City_Model.jpg) (http://i.imagehost.org/view/0557/City_Model)
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See, if I would have drawn that, it would look like something a "precious childs" parents would put on their refrigerator.
This looks like it's gonna be cool. I'll wait and see what you come up with doc. ;D
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May help with graphics / images / pics.
But first, it could be good to think a bit more about the city general look.
It's close to sea? has a river? mountains / hills?
I was thinking to keep it as close to the current one as I could. So at the water's edge,with a central hill. behind that, in the part of the city not show on the current map I was going to put the keep, and then the docs on the secton of coastline currently visible, with shambletown sprawling between the south gate and the docks.
Middle Ages city model? European-Gothic town? Arabic kasbah?
Think of cities featured in films, or imaginary cities in games. TES III Morrowind towns and cities were interesting.
I was thinking Middle Ages for the plebs, and moving more toward classical/renaissance styles for the posh end of town. A little bit of Early Industrial Squalid might work, too.
Then draw a sketch, develop some history remarks (history affects town growing and shape, adds flavour just like ward names) and make someone draw properly a plan at 1200x1200.
I did a bit about Crossgate's history as I see it in the Nature of Crossgate thread. Short version: the city is there almost entirely becuase the area is prone to spatial anomalies, portals, and the like, and a lot of what gets deposited by these things is worth money. Most of Crossgate's trade began shipping alien artifacts and slaves, and it's still a major slave trading city.
Other than that, the place is too far out from the capital to get much attention, and by and large it's a nasty, dangerous place to live. The post of city governor has become something of a punishement posting at Court, and the city's had a sucession of governors who hated and neglected the place, which is why the gang problem has grown so badly out of hand.
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It sounds a like Crossgate is similar to the old Thieves World series.
By the way if you're going for that Medieval European feel; its kinda important to decide how do you intend to deal with religion.
I see two major paths the Planescape way where all religions are valid and active and they're all fighting it out. Alternately a more historical and hostile unified church which may be good for adding difficulty.
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The problem with a Unified religion idea in WM is that crossgate is a melting pot of other worlds, not just other nations. With so many people coming from all over, It's hard to have one, unified, all oppressive religion running the show. It wouldn't be a question of barbarians at the gates. It would literally be sudden dissension in the streets in the afternoon.
Planescape had an interesting take on this. The citizens of Sigil had some basic beliefs that amounted mostly to ego stroking. (Sigil is great because it is the center of the ring. The people that live here are great because we live here. The lady is great because she protects us... just don't mess with her.) They further expounded on this through the factions. And if anything, the factions didn't represent a unified front. Just the opposite.
Now, I know I always fall back to Planescape in matters like this. But it really is good fiction. And it makes sense that with so many cultures in crossgate, Religion would be a fractured mess at best. Roving Gangs in robes at worst.
Just my thoughts on this.
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It sounds a like Crossgate is similar to the old Thieves World series.
mmmm... with a healthy dollop of Lankhmar and a dash of TunFaire from Glen Cook's Garret PI books, perhaps :)
By the way if you're going for that Medieval European feel; its kinda important to decide how do you intend to deal with religion.
I see two major paths the Planescape way where all religions are valid and active and they're all fighting it out. Alternately a more historical and hostile unified church which may be good for adding difficulty.
I was thinking more the Lankmar/Ankh-Mopork approach with a cheerfully polytheistic approach and oddball cults springing up from time to time. In RL, Roman empire was a lot like that.
Planescape had an interesting take on this. The citizens of Sigil had some basic beliefs that amounted mostly to ego stroking. (Sigil is great because it is the center of the ring. The people that live here are great because we live here. The lady is great because she protects us... just don't mess with her.) They further expounded on this through the factions. And if anything, the factions didn't represent a unified front. Just the opposite.
I think the inhabitants of Crossgate have that sort of Hubris. I expect they're more likely to regard themselves as getting shat upon because they're at the ass-end of the universe. (But gods help an outsider who tries saying that...)
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I think the inhabitants of Crossgate have that sort of Hubris. I expect they're more likely to regard themselves as getting shat upon because they're at the ass-end of the universe. (But gods help an outsider who tries saying that...)
Great point. There is a certain amount of pride that develops amongst people that surpass insurmountable odds to just eke out a living. They'd see outsiders as whiners that just need to get it or get lost. In this regard, there may not be much in the way of charity and social safety nets in crossgate. This could explain why there are so many strong willed girls in the whorehouse. (Iron will is a favored trait after all for girl creators) Survive by any means necessary.
On that note, why not add a part of crossgate that acts as a dimensional check in|out station. The fees would be exorbitant. (Something for the rich and powerful to play with) Simply because it isn't very easy (for the sake of this scenario) to create a stable portal to a specific place. So your "Free" girls are working towards that. Maybe even have a scenario where a girl leaves this way if she makes enough money and doesn't like you very much.
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I'd go for Ankh-Mopork. Resembles middle ages border cities between christian and muslim kingdoms, with the christian-muslim-jewish armonious mixture.
(of course, until the arrival of the Spanish Inquisition -when you less expect them). ;)
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Great point. There is a certain amount of pride that develops amongst people that surpass insurmountable odds to just eke out a living. They'd see outsiders as whiners that just need to get it or get lost. In this regard, there may not be much in the way of charity and social safety nets in crossgate. This could explain why there are so many strong willed girls in the whorehouse. (Iron will is a favored trait after all for girl creators) Survive by any means necessary.
Funny - I meant to say "don't have that sort of hubris", but I think we got to the same point either way :)
On that note, why not add a part of crossgate that acts as a dimensional check in|out station. The fees would be exorbitant. (Something for the rich and powerful to play with) Simply because it isn't very easy (for the sake of this scenario) to create a stable portal to a specific place. So your "Free" girls are working towards that. Maybe even have a scenario where a girl leaves this way if she makes enough money and doesn't like you very much.
Hmmm... Cammy's script suggest that it can be done. It would make a good use for the big pentagram in Pentangle Square, I suppose ...
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I'd go for Ankh-Mopork. Resembles middle ages border cities between christian and muslim kingdoms, with the christian-muslim-jewish armonious mixture.
Which would do for me. I don't want to model it too closely on any fantasy city, but Ankh-Mopork is close
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By the way, Doc, could you tell me which drawing style is closer to what you've imagined (just the style, not the city structure)?
(http://i.imagehost.org/0328/rome-plan.jpg) (http://i.imagehost.org/view/0328/rome-plan)
(http://j.imagehost.org/0557/sm0185-Turin-Plan-l.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0557/sm0185-Turin-Plan-l)
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The first one, I think. I like them both, but the first is much clearer, and clarity is going to be good :)
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I agree. The second one is more "historic"; so, it is more technical and less good looking -I just have to check.
I'm working on some sketches and schemes. First one is a development over the existing plan, adding the keep and northern section of the city wall (I put some suggestions about zoning too). Drawing over the original plan proved useful as analysis of the current layout. Please note the presence of the keep 'hanging' over a cliff, and the relation betwen the keep and the temples (politics looks at religion, and vice-versa), then other minor powers locate themselves downhill till reaching slums.
The second one is some sort of evolution of the city model over the forementioned analysis. The town originated around keep (maybe an old wizard tower -the first attemp to seize interdimensional gates). At some point of history, there's some interaction between a rising nobility group and the old wizard that ends with peasants, servants, etc. settling around the new keep to serve the new masters. The town grows thanks to a flourishing trade of exotic artifacts. Charging the trade of goods with taxes and the need to defend their wealth forces the rulers to build the first wall. Years pass and the original noble family is gone, and the old town has grown outwalls till twice or three times its original size. The outer city is a shady place where wealth can live next door to misery, so wealthy nobles and honest merchants tend to settle in homes inside the first wall. At some point there's an armed conflict involving early firearms (maybe some tit canons too) and a new artillerywise-shaped wall is built, protecting slums and harbour. The city layout is shaped around the city walls and the hill, which causes a division in levels, with the keep on the highest and the slums and harbour on the lowest.
Oh, dammit, maybe I'm gone too far. Feel free to edit / point out / suggest. Need feedback badly.
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i like this Town map ^^
(http://www.abload.de/thumb/1254920754958if6s.jpg) (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=1254920754958if6s.jpg)
(got it in real... nice work!)
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First time I see Ankh-Mopork map. Cool.
I can try to draw something like that (maybe some 'copy-paste' -not enough to have copyright issues, though).
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First time I see Ankh-Mopork map. Cool.
I can try to draw something like that (maybe some 'copy-paste' -not enough to have copyright issues, though).
It is a good map. Of course, it's just London rotated through 90 degrees and with some of the names changed (the Ilse of Gods is the Ilse of Dogs, for instance) but it's still a nice piece of work.
From the maps you posted, the first one was pretty much what I had in mind, less some interior partitions. The second one is more convincing as a city though. Something along those lines would do nicely, I think :)
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Maybe too much partitions, as you said, Doc -and I was going for more... :-\
I worked a bit around sketch#2, made some structure develop and tested textures / drawing styles / fonts / colours / res.
(http://h.imagehost.org/0870/Sketch2_General_Layout.jpg) (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0870/Sketch2_General_Layout)
At this point, do you like the "new" starlike shape? prefer a more rounded one (like the original)? maybe a more 'organic-scattered' shape?
How many partitions do you think there should be? I was really into the 'level' division because it could be a game level division besides a mere heights / walls division (Acropolis-like, but less religious) -I mean: you start outwalls in the poorest slums at sea level, then you gain access to the first ring, and later to the high city. Maybe the point is not to sub-divide levels?
Besides that, if you think the model is ok (more or less) there's the ward location issue. I just made some general allocation of population types / social classes, and tried to integrate some elements you were talking about (not everyone, of course), but there's still much work on it.
P.D. Everyone can have his/her own opinion on the map thing, I'm sure DocClox (and myself) would appreciate any help.
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Maybe too much partitions, as you said, Doc -and I was going for more... :-\
Actually, I was thinking it needed a couple more to get the separate, isolated wards I wanted so I could place the wards in my list. I don't mind if there's room for one or two more. I've got some ideas about a temple quarter in particular. And, if we're expanding things, probably somewhere to put an arena
Sorry, I'm not expressing myself very clearly at the moment, it seems :(
At this point, do you like the "new" starlike shape? prefer a more rounded one (like the original)? maybe a more 'organic-scattered' shape?
The star shape is good. Crossgate is starting to remind me of the city in the Thief games. Which might not be a bad match architecturally, either.
How many partitions do you think there should be? I was really into the 'level' division because it could be a game level division besides a mere heights / walls division (Acropolis-like, but less religious) -I mean: you start outwalls in the poorest slums at sea level, then you gain access to the first ring, and later to the high city. Maybe the point is not to sub-divide levels?
Ah, right. I see what you had in mind now. I weas thinking more of a network approach. Give me a bit and I'll see if I can do a daigram.
I'd like enough partitions to house all of the wards in the lead article, less Shambletown which is outside the walls, and Spark End which is just the far end of the merchant's quarter. A temple quarter would be nice. I'm not sure if an arena deserves its own ward or not. I know it had one in Oblivion, but I'm not sure it would work like that in practice.
Besides that, if you think the model is ok (more or less) there's the ward location issue. I just made some general allocation of population types / social classes, and tried to integrate some elements you were talking about (not everyone, of course), but there's still much work on it.
Yeah. I like the way it's going :)
P.D. Everyone can have his/her own opinion on the map thing, I'm sure DocClox (and myself) would appreciate any help.
Indeed. The more the merrier!
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OK, this is ore or less how I saw the wards connecting. Each of the connecting lines would need to be unlocked except for the green ones.
So there's an informal idea of levels there in that you need to control Pinchpenny Lane or Pentangle Square before you can move on Nobb Hill, but there's no automatic lateral access on a level.
(http://content.imagesocket.com/images/crossgate_net378.png)
Anyway, that's what I ws thinking. I don't regard any of this as set in stone at the moment.
I've got some more historical musings to set down, too, but that's going to have to wait. I'm needed in the garden, it seems...
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Got the ward com net, I'll see if I can make it fit into a three level scheme. Personally I like the Arena district idea (TES fan myself), could be starting point for quests / missions or even grant new activities: Arena combat training, Arena gladiator competition (I think someone mentioned that in some other post...)
In the meantime, an artists impression of Crossgate from sea, at this stage of development:
(http://j.imagehost.org/0445/Sketch_View_from_sea.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0445/Sketch_View_from_sea)
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so sleaze street can access shamble town right away and pinch penny lane can access spark end right away
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So then, for each area there would be 3 different access levels, right? "No Access" (completely unavailable), "Expansion Access" (can't access anything there such as shops other than buying buildings there, which leads to...), "Full Access" (can access everything here).
Owning a building in the area grants Full Access to everything there, along with Expansion Access for adjoining areas, except for green connections on your chart which also grant Full Access to that area.
Is that the general idea, or am I misunderstanding?
If that's the idea, we could have 2 alpha PNG color overlays for each section to indicated No Access (dark grey) or Expansion Access (green or yellow). For No Access we could simply not show any shops or buildings there or maybe show them under the color overlay (inaccessible), and Expansion Access could maybe show shops and such under the color overlay (inaccessible) and show buyable buildings on top.
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so sleaze street can access shamble town right away and pinch penny lane can access spark end right away
Yeah. I have Shambletown described as outside the walls, so it doesn't make sense in that case to stop the player from going there. On the other hand, I think there's a difference between being able to go there and operating there safely so (using Dagoth's terminology) I guess this would start with expansion access. Similarly for Spark end.
So then, for each area there would be 3 different access levels, right? "No Access" (completely unavailable), "Expansion Access" (can't access anything there such as shops other than buying buildings there, which leads to...), "Full Access" (can access everything here).
Owning a building in the area grants Full Access to everything there, along with Expansion Access for adjoining areas, except for green connections on your chart which also grant Full Access to that area.
Is that the general idea, or am I misunderstanding?
Spot on. The only difference is that I'd let the player access the facilities, but it would be risky. You'd get raided and be at a tactical disadvantage.
If that's the idea, we could have 2 alpha PNG color overlays for each section to indicated No Access (dark grey) or Expansion Access (green or yellow). For No Access we could simply not show any shops or buildings there or maybe show them under the color overlay (inaccessible), and Expansion Access could maybe show shops and such under the color overlay (inaccessible) and show buyable buildings on top.
That sounds good. I'd thought about fogging out locked wards, but the two colour scheme makes more sense.
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That sounds good. I'd thought about fogging out locked wards, but the two colour scheme makes more sense.
There's another option wich involves several png alpha files containing a particular ward each. Those act like layers over a general map slightly faded to white. The idea is that locked wards stay faded and moving cursor over them doesn't change anything. Unlockables are faded, but change to the png file view on mouse hoover. Unlocked stay unfaded even without the mouse hoovering over. Since I'm working on separate different layers for structure elements (walls, gates...), divisions (wards, districts, quarters...), background textures, and signs, text and objects (e.gr. Crossgate banner) everything is possible.
On the other hand, I have no idea about the exact degree of complexity when coding all this stuff together -so any coder's feedback will be appreciated.
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The only problem there is that I don't think the engine is up to detecting mouseover events on irregular shapes. They'd need to be rectanguar, and that would spoil the flavour of the map. But we can put differently shaded PNGs over map segments without any trouble.
I like the idea of having different layers for the map. We could have a filter box down the side so you could toggle certain types of elements on the map.
Hmm... I'm going to have to think about how to make the map extensible.
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It's a pity mousehoover doesn't work well on non-rectangular shapes, Doc, it could have been cool. On the other hand, if you can handle filters coding I can save separate png images with different elements (and that would restore coolness, indeed ;D )
Meanwhile, I went on messing with wards diagram. I couldn't make it fit in the city plan, so I tried a 'compromise'. I changed some city locations and rearranged wards on the three levels scheme, changing some communications. The "levels" connection idea is to negate access to the next upper level if player haven't unlocked every single location on current level. Besides that, controlling a whole level could grant a "title" (level1: Businessman -> level2: Nobleman -> level3: Ruler of Crossgate) wich means some sort of social progression (coupled with fame and disposition: I'm some sort of "town hero evil businessman" hahaha). Well, that's just an idea.
Take a look at the proposed ward diagram and city map and point out any changes you've got in mind (I know, I know, have to move Pentagle Square drawing where it is supposed to be -it's only a sketch, right?)
(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2320/sketch3wardtopology.jpg) (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/sketch3wardtopology.jpg/)
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3729/sketch4wardallocation.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/sketch4wardallocation.jpg/)
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It's a pity mousehoover doesn't work well on non-rectangular shapes, Doc, it could have been cool. On the other hand, if you can handle filters coding I can save separate png images with different elements (and that would restore coolness, indeed ;D )
We could make it work. set a rectangle bounding box, and then have an undisplayed image with each ward a different colour. Then we test the bounding box for the basic mouseover, and use the co-ords within that box to lookup the pixel colour in our image map and take it from there. Very cool, but a ton of work, so probably not as a priority.
Meanwhile, I went on messing with wards diagram. I couldn't make it fit in the city plan, so I tried a 'compromise'. I changed some city locations and rearranged wards on the three levels scheme, changing some communications. The "levels" connection idea is to negate access to the next upper level if player haven't unlocked every single location on current level. Besides that, controlling a whole level could grant a "title" (level1: Businessman -> level2: Nobleman -> level3: Ruler of Crossgate) wich means some sort of social progression (coupled with fame and disposition: I'm some sort of "town hero evil businessman" hahaha). Well, that's just an idea.
The layout could work, certainly. Sleaze Street looks like it would support two gangs, so I'll probably need a couple more names for Sleaze Street East and Sleaze Street West. Spark End is bigger than I was expecting, especially if it's separate from the artificers quarter. Based on that map,we could probably have Spark End and the artificers with their own separate wards and unlocking requirements. And if I were a noble in as magically unstable a place as Crossgate, I'd probably want the mages at the far end of the ward, rather than right next door.
Apart from that, I think it's shaping up nicely :)
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looks nice a few touch ups and it wold be great. thumbs up
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I promised some thoughts on Crossgate History and the Temple District.
Crossgate History
Basically, I want to try and explain why I think Crossgate has to be a minor provincial town. The logic is like this:
The gangs control Crossgate, but they don't rule. There's a mayor and a city guard not under the control of the gangs. Now, if crossgate were an independent city state or the capital of a nation, I think the gangs would have used their dominance to seize power, and the gang leaders would all be the heads of noble houses. So I think there has to be some massively powerful external force that keeps the gangs from getting over-ambitious. So I think the city is part of a kingdom or empire. Let's say Empire.
Now if Crossgate was close to the center of government, I think someone would have sent in the military by now. Having an ongoing font of civil disorder at the heart of the empire is a political liability. And if it was distant but still important, I think someone would have send a legion by now, if only to stop the city falling into enemy hands. So I think it has to be distant and considered to be of low importance for the gangs to be tolerated.
I don't think this was alway the case, however. Someone went to the trouble to build a fortress there, so I suspect that at one time someone was concerned about the possibility of invasion. Possibly by some extra-dimensional force. Whatever the case though, I don't think anyone gives much creedence to that idea these days.
The Temple District
My idea of Crossgate's religion is that it's similar to ancient Rome in that they worship whatever gods are going and tend to pick up new ones the way the English language picks up new words.
If so, what about temple prostitution?
There's two basic scenarios I can see. One of them is that whores are so rife in Crossgate that temple prostitution never caught on in the city. That's the simplest explanation.
The other one is that it exists, but that it's sufficiently stuffy and well ... religious, that its offputting to most of the city, and they tend to prefer the secular whores instead. I think this is the more interesting option. However, it raises the question: how does the temple fit in to the ongoing gang warfare in the city?
I'm tempted to have the Temple of Lurrve (better name needed) as an independant operator. Which is to say that they weren't involved in the death of the player's father and can be ignored. They'll act to keep prices down a little, but apart from that have no impact on the game. Alternatively the player can try and take control of the temple either by force (very hard) or by politics, and I need to think about that a bit more.
Anyway, just some musings.
Oh, and I meant to say earlier: @d31r3x: I like the artist's impression a lot!
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We could make it work. set a rectangle bounding box, and then have an undisplayed image with each ward a different colour. Then we test the bounding box for the basic mouseover, and use the co-ords within that box to lookup the pixel colour in our image map and take it from there. Very cool, but a ton of work, so probably not as a priority.
Agree. I'd rather have a working (and good looking) version first, then add more features (given we were smart enough to foresee some of them and left "room" for later development).
The layout could work, certainly. Sleaze Street looks like it would support two gangs, so I'll probably need a couple more names for Sleaze Street East and Sleaze Street West. Spark End is bigger than I was expecting, especially if it's separate from the artificers quarter. Based on that map,we could probably have Spark End and the artificers with their own separate wards and unlocking requirements. And if I were a noble in as magically unstable a place as Crossgate, I'd probably want the mages at the far end of the ward, rather than right next door.
I see. What about moving Pentagle Square (mages) to the pink quarter between Spark End (artificiers included) and Pinchpenny Lane? That leaves Spark End in a similar situation as Crossgate Quays, yet more isolated. Dangerous magic users locate themselves far away from those poosh nobbs. Moreover, that leaves all the dangerous exploding / melting / summoning stuff in the north section of the city -enter here at your own risk. Besides that, the Pinchpenny Ward will be located south of Pinchpenny Lane (the street, I mean), wich acts as a frontier between this ward and the mage's (Pentagle Square). To balance the city structure a new wealthy merchants / famed artists / artifact traders ward should be located where mages were supposed to be (the cyan+green quarter). Now I see it, maybe I mistook mages as part of the city 'beautiful people' instead of that bearded, freaky and crazy dangerous folks of the Discworld series (If you ask me, I'd rather prefer the later ones).
In addition to that, I think splitting Sleaze Street ward into West and East will make it look even more gangish: East vs. West gangwars, goons with different hats and clothes colour watching each other at both sides of street, irrational hate and tension between east and west neighbours, menacing graffiti marking boundaries...
(http://i.imagehost.org/0301/Sketch3_Ward_Topology_B.jpg) (http://i.imagehost.org/view/0301/Sketch3_Ward_Topology_B)
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Resembles early renaissance Venetian and Milanese Republics mixed with Roman periferic provinces (late empire). Could be the city of Amn from D&D tabletop / PC games, too.
Maybe nobody truly rules Crossgate because some sort of dynamic balance of power taking place. In absence of a strong leader or a greater power, the Empire's officers and bureaucrats (mayor and watch garrison included), the old nobility (knights included), the wealthy merchants (enriched by artifact and exotic slaves trade), the gang leaders (maybe others rule the city, but those do control the lower city) and, of course, the religious party, seem to struggle endlessly to seize complete hegemony (luckily without significant breakouts). It seems no one cares, as long as comerce goods and gold keep flowing smoothly.
The religious issue could be fit by means of the mentioned politheysm approach, but also by the border city / trader city multicultural balance: no one wants to piss off potential customers... I mean, in the begining, maybe the whole city cared little about religion, but having a temple of a certain god seemed to please traders from that particular confession. Eventually, multiple religions settled and were forced not to piss off each other (same customer principle as above). Then they realized that all of them were "in the same boat", allied together against agnosticism and atheism (secretly, against the other main powers), and settled in the Temple Distric -were they are strong since then.
Hope this could be of some help.
P.D. Thanks, Doc. I wish I could draw better.
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I have only good things to say about the ideas and designs of the wards and the new city map!! Watching both of you (DocClox and d31r3x) bouncing ideas off of each other makes me excited to see the end results. So i'll stay out of the creative magic you two have going on.
One thing i did want to comment on was in regards to the crossgate history, On the temple topic:
The Temple District
If so, what about temple prostitution?
There's two basic scenarios I can see. One of them is that whores are so rife in Crossgate that temple prostitution never caught on in the city. That's the simplest explanation.
The other one is that it exists, but that it's sufficiently stuffy and well ... religious, that its off putting to most of the city, and they tend to prefer the secular whores instead. I think this is the more interesting option. However, it raises the question: how does the temple fit in to the ongoing gang warfare in the city?
I'm tempted to have the Temple of Lurrve (better name needed) as an independant operator. Which is to say that they weren't involved in the death of the player's father and can be ignored. They'll act to keep prices down a little, but apart from that have no impact on the game. Alternatively the player can try and take control of the temple either by force (very hard) or by politics, and I need to think about that a bit more.
Just by looking at the current city diagram. In order for the player to move up into the "level 2/Nobelman" position, the player has only one option, through the temple. From the looks of the current diagram, the temple looks like both a pivotal and critical part of the game/story.
From your quote, you're saying that the temple will have little impact on the game. Maybe instead, play up it's importance. I think this would be a great opportunity to offer up a serious chunk of story or at least replay value.
A few thoughts:
When the player unlocks the temple. The player has to choose one of the available religions. The player doesn't have to like it, or even follow the rules. But this would be something of a "necessary evil" if the player wants to move up higher in nobility. Historically, religion has always been tied to politics. One religion fights another religion or alliances are made based on what religions two groups of people subscribe too.
When the player pics one of lets say 3-4 religions, this will "open doors" to some nobility and simultaneously "close doors" to other nobles. Which would give the game replay value.
The stipulation to being a part of a religion would mean having to give up some of your slaves from time to time. The trade off would of course be, that you have access to higher nobility. Meeting important people and such. The temple would be to powerful for the player to forcefully "take over" at first. But if the player is patient and "plays the political game, with pomp and circumstance" an opportunity to take over the temple could present itself. Once the player overthrows the temple, it would then become a new brothel for the player, with a few slaves already inside.
As for the religions:
One of the religions could be the old pagan/norse religions where virgin sacrifice is common. If you subscribe to this, then periodically you would need to "donate" one of your virgin slaves in order to appease those in power of the temple.
Another religion could be the Ephors like from the movie "300" where "oracals" would need to be donated by the player. These slaves would need to be high in magic or intelligence.
Another option could be a "Temple of Cybele" a sort of, "goddess of love" where the player would need to donate experienced slaves (say a minimum of level 5).
different religions could fight each other sort of like gangs. An example would be the Cybele worshipers would despise the pagan worshipers for their sacrifices of virgins.
If you wanted to include a conspiracy theory element into the main story (if you're writing a main story) the player could find out that it was one of the temples that hired the gang that killed your father. Giving the player a justification to overthrow the temples. A little cliche albeit.
Feel free to shoot down all of my suggestions. The point i'm trying to make is that the temples offer up a lot of potential for story, game re-playability and shouldn't be so flippantly dismissed.
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how did you guys imagine crossgate?
because, this seems quite far removed from my interpretation of it (not that it's a bad thing, I'm just curious)
I always thought of it as a cross of amn architecture (as it appeared in baldur's gate, but grittier) and sigil's lack of concern for the freaky stuff going on in it
portals weren't glimmering doors to the unknown, but split-second tears in reality that went unnoticed by the population that weren't specifically looking for them, so whatever they spat out almost immediately melded with the scene
your presentation seems like a mix of roman culture and high fantasy
also, I got an idea, reading the history of crossgate
if you assume the portals are rare outside of crossgate, relatively common within it, and running rampant beneath, the city could be built like an inverted fortress
rather than sealing the catacombs, and dealing with/loosening their grip on the often dangerous individuals coming from beyond, they decided to enclose the city, building the keep on the hill close to the sea, protected from the city itself by the inner walls, overlooking the city, with another layer of fortifications against outside attackers
the elite, more profitable districts would be inside these inner walls, untainted by corruption at the first glance (this would require relatively little changes to the current map)
treasure hunters and merchants jumped the opportunity to get rich trafficking alien artifacts, and (assuming slavery is accepted throughout the empire) slave traders were soon to follow, attracted by the promise of exotic, and therefore profitable, goods
the fledgling city's appeal attracted other kinds opportunists, however, and the inner city soon erupted in gang wars
seeing the power struggle actually served to increase productivity of the outer city (which is not as prone to planewalking as the inner) by unifying individual businesses into groups looking to increase their own power, and the fact that their "power" was pathetic at best (and really, before the player takes over, it is), the rulers of the city decided to let them play their games, but restrict them to the outer city (this would work like the current crossgate, with gang wars in broad daylight etc., while the inner would be a more political, behind the scenes power-struggle)
the start game could work like what we have now (hopefully more challenging) with the player working to control as much of the outer city as possible, before he gets enough power to get a shot at the inner city
the "endgame" would mean the player taking political control of the city, which has grown so powerful over the years, even more so being, for the first time ever, entirely in control of a single man, that the empire itself is scared
I probably left something out, but it's almost 4am here
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if you assume the portals are rare outside of crossgate, relatively common within it, and running rampant beneath, the city could be built like an inverted fortress
Or like an inverted underground pyramid. With a gigantic uber portal at the tip (bottom). The further you go from that point to the surface, the wider the area potential portals can form. But they become smaller, shorter lasting. Crossgate could be built on the base(top) of said pyramid explaining why portals happen there.
Of course all these portals permeate energy into the world, thus smaller less stable portals can appear anywhere in the world. Just not as often as happens in Crossgate.
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Oh, dear, I seem to have gone cross-eyed. :)
I just wanted to say that I kinda like some of fixet's ideas; however, it seems to me the elite districts probably wouldn't really be able the thrive sitting inside the inner walls, especially in a place as violent as Crossgate. They'd be in the center of a huge kill zone. Just set a fire inside the walls and blockade the gates, and you've got a homebrew Nuremburg fire-storm; and its not like they could escape to the catacombs that they're sitting on...that'd be suicidal.
Looking at Lorde's and fixet's posts, it seems to me that there is one essential issue requiring attention, and that is the EXACT nature of the catacombs. The map thus far is pretty cool in my opinion, but as the surface world of Crossgate becomes more concrete, it may become necessary to finally nail down the details on those catacombs, at least as far as geography and access points go. Don't necessarily need to build up the story of how it came to be; every fantasy game requires the willing suspension of disbelief. But if the hows and whys of the geopolitical situation of Crossgate get explored too far, then we'll rapidly find ourselves naming the ancient mage who summoned some-power-or-another-that-tore-the-earth-asunder.
I guess my point is, do you want it bad enough that you would write it yourself? :)
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I thought the catacombs were in constant flux and as such, had no concrete layout.
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I thought the catacombs were in constant flux and as such, had no concrete layout.
I suppose that could have been the case at one point... but if we're to expand the catacomb exploration, that may not be AS possible. Perhaps the first level where your brothel is located doesn't change. But the lower floors are less stable, any sort of progression could be done via splits in various portals of space. All connected to the first level. So as you progress these portals begin to open up and you can explore deeper into the catacombs... it may take several visits to find the deeper levels (due to the constant change of layout and design) but doing it enough, defeating a specific monster, finding an item, flipping a switch, replacing a bag of treasure with a bag of stones, whatever it takes. You'll find them eventually.
Who knows! IMAGINATION~
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I suppose that could have been the case at one point... but if we're to expand the catacomb exploration, that may not be AS possible.
I was thinking a shifting layut with some stable features. It's a bit like Chaos Theory. there are ways to map out a chaoitic system so you can see where they system is normal and where it descends into chaos. The interesting thing is that you find islands of stability scattered throughout the chaos. I think the catacombs are like that - things shift around, but there are some places within it that don't change.
Perhaps the first level where your brothel is located doesn't change.
I don't see the catacombs as existing in the same space as the rest of Crossgate. I've always thought that the dungeon and catacombs connected to all the player's brothels. The rival gangs have to know that the player has (or his father had) a secret way to move people and items between establishments. I think if the catacombs were physically under the city, then one of the other gangs would have figured it out by now.
That said, I did have a notion that Crossgate had a realspace sewer system that had a number of properties in common with the catacombs. I wasn't planning on mapping them out though, just usig them to justify quest mechanics here and there.
But the lower floors are less stable, any sort of progression could be done via splits in various portals of space. All connected to the first level. So as you progress these portals begin to open up and you can explore deeper into the catacombs... it may take several visits to find the deeper levels (due to the constant change of layout and design) but doing it enough, defeating a specific monster, finding an item, flipping a switch, replacing a bag of treasure with a bag of stones, whatever it takes. You'll find them eventually.
Yeah. I thnk leveled catacombs are a good idea, and we'll need something a bit challenging to unlock the lower levels. Not sure what, as yet. Boss fights, if we can make them more involving than the usual goon/girl missions; fetch-the-great-macguffin quests if we don't overdo them. Maybe have some portals that require the player to sacrifice one of his girls ... although there'd better be an alternative in that case...
[edit]
I've added the catacomb level ideas to my long term todo list on the project wave.
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Reminds me of Heroes of Might and Magic dual map system (one map for surface, one map for underground).
Lots of good ideas, little free time to get them real :'(
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I just wanted to say that I kinda like some of fixet's ideas; however, it seems to me the elite districts probably wouldn't really be able the thrive sitting inside the inner walls, especially in a place as violent as Crossgate. They'd be in the center of a huge kill zone. Just set a fire inside the walls and blockade the gates, and you've got a homebrew Nuremburg fire-storm; and its not like they could escape to the catacombs that they're sitting on...that'd be suicidal.
well, my original idea was actually pretty different
having gangs be trapped inside the inner wall, with the keep resting between the two walls
the inner wall would actually serve to protect the outside from both the gangs and whatever comes through the portals
but that would mean rearranging the map, so I gave up on the idea
tactics-wise, you forgot about two things
one, the city itself is, at any time, infinitely more powerful than the strongest gang (you), they raid you whenever you want, and you can do nothing about it
and two, MAGIC
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Yeah. I thnk leveled catacombs are a good idea, and we'll need something a bit challenging to unlock the lower levels. Not sure what, as yet. Boss fights, if we can make them more involving than the usual goon/girl missions; fetch-the-great-macguffin quests if we don't overdo them. Maybe have some portals that require the player to sacrifice one of his girls ... although there'd better be an alternative in that case...
Sacrifice a girl or a few is a good idea. Pay a fee to a "gate keeper" could also work. Determining the lowest levels might be more difficult considering you don't want them too easy, but they can't be too hard either. :/
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Reading the post regarding the surface map and subterren map gave me an idea for the late-game part.
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Imagine that the catacomb as it is now is a barrier of sorts, a hundred level Labyrinth, and below that is a whole new world altogether. You've probably heard of underground cities and countries. This is the real deal.
A thousand years ago, give or take a couple of century, this... Underworld broke through the dimensional barriers seperating the two worlds, the result of which sent shockwaves across the whole of reality, weakening it enough for other holes to appear. The main tear, however, ripped the world apart just where Crossgate is now situtated, and through it they sent their armies.
They were beaten back, of course, or we wouldn't be sitting here right now, but not without cost.
Before they came, there was no kingdom, no empire. Just a lot of tribes fighting and surviving as best as they could. The Underworld invasion changed that. The tribes were forced to band together just to live to see tomorrow. And from this core, the empire, or at least the begining of it, was formed. They joined their forces together and forced the Underworld army back, taking terrible losses, but was finally sucessful.
Their mages then combined their magics together, welding shut the rip in space-time as best as they could. But it was a patch job at best, and it was consistently being tested from below. Then someone came up with the idea of building a Labyrinth, to slow down and confuse them, and so they did. After a few years, and several layers later, the threat from the underworld was diminished enough that a small community was able to form around the work site, and a small village was formed. This was the start of the City later known as Crossgate.
After about fifty layers or so, the Underworld threat was vurtually gone, but fear of them kept the workers busy, until an even hundred layers stood between them and the underword. The CrossKeep was built then, to watch over the Labyrinth and stand guard against them.
And watch they did, even as the empire grew and fell, to be replaced by other empires, other kingdoms. Until eventually the memories of the horrors were forgotten, washed away by the rivers of time, and no one could remember the purpose of the castle.
Crossgate had by this time grown into a small city, its remote location attracting those who were hiding, refugees of one war or another, and also those who had reason to hide, smugglers, slavers, and the likes. Adventuers too were drawn to Crossgate to challage the Labyrinth, conviced that there must be some vast treasure hidden within. And so the city grew, gaining a reputation through its trade of curious items and creatures sometimes found within the Labyrinth, its original purpose all but forgotten.
It would have remain that way for the next thousand years, but for your father. He found mentions of the Underworld in old records, and was intrige by it. He was determined to find this Underworld, and to plunder its riches. (The legends he had heard mixed up mentions of adventurers looking for treasures, and the old Underworld. Naturally he assumes that the riches are found in the Underwold.)
Through sheer dumb luck and determination, he actually found the way through to the Underworld, and decided to return to the surface to make a proper expertition out of it. When he returned, however, the Temple caught wind of it, and had him killed. (Which Temple... now that's a good question.) The rest, I believe you know.
So what will you do now? Seal the Labyrinth? Or follow the path of your father.
What will you find there? I don't know. Would their inhabitants make good slaves? Maybe you should try, and find out. It could be the key to all your dreams, or it could be your worst nightmares......
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that doesn't make any sense
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Maybe we should have a quest in each distract as well as ones you have to do certain things to unlock. like slay so many demons in the catacombs or something just extra stuff so you don't get bored
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Maybe we should have a quest in each distract as well as ones you have to do certain things to unlock. like slay so many demons in the catacombs or something just extra stuff so you don't get bored
Agree. I'm not sure, but maybe Doc's LUA work would make adding custom quests possible so that we never get bored.
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that doesn't make any sense
Well, this is something that I whipped up in about 10 mintues, so yeah... Basically just an idea of how Crossgate came to be, and why is reality so unstable there, and the reason for the catacombs, and maybe an excuse for an expension of some sort. (Yes, I thought that far ahead...)
After all, you'll need something to do after conquring all of Crossgate...
But if you think that it's dumb, feel free to disregard it.
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Well, this is something that I whipped up in about 10 mintues, so yeah... Basically just an idea of how Crossgate came to be, and why is reality so unstable there, and the reason for the catacombs, and maybe an excuse for an expension of some sort. (Yes, I thought that far ahead...)
After all, you'll need something to do after conquring all of Crossgate...
But if you think that it's dumb, feel free to disregard it.
Seems basically OK. Reminds me a bit of the plot from Words Worth, but nothing wrong with that. I was thinking of having hand crafted level bosses though, so a hundred of them might be a bit of a challenge.
The other thing is that I was planning to have the catacombs lead to lots of places, rather than just one. Maybe there are lots of theories about the catacombs and this is just one of them.
It would make a good add on, I think.
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@shinteo
not that my opinion holds much weight, but I don't think it's dumb
it is just not a sensical order of events
it COULD happen, I just don't see why it would happen like that
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Yeah i agree it could happen it just isn't likely, somewhat like getting the ultima weapon the first time playing FF9, you can do it it just is unlikely to happen.
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Back to topic, here's the city map at its current development stage.
(http://j.imagehost.org/0299/Sketch5_General_Layout_Changes.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0299/Sketch5_General_Layout_Changes)
HiRes Lossless Version:
Sketch5_General_Layout.jpg (1.9 MB) (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0999/Sketch5_General_Layout)
Note I moved and resized Spark End, allocated mages (Pentagle Square) between Spark End and Pinchpenny, and added a high class merchant-banker-artist ward wich I called Northsade because I couldn't find any cool name it's on the north part of the hill, and thus it's streets are almost permanently in shade (historically, a classic old market + artisan slums, became higher class when masses moved outwalls). Splitted Sleaze Street Ward into West Sleaze and East Sleaze as Doc pointed out (awaiting for a better name). Other minor changes added, including testing slum texture at Sparks End (wich I don't like at all, I'll give it a Ank-Mopork map look / style -see page 1), sketching built structure of inwall wards (except Temple District, waiting either for Doc ideas / advice or an outcome in Crossgate religion discussion ;D ) and initial outer wall artillery-wise shape on wall's north section.
Ideas on connections between wards taken into consideration. I would connect Pinchpenny Lane with Northshade instead Temple District, and leave it as the only connection between the higher and lower city. This way we avoid messing with religions. Maybe I'd use East Sleeaze as starting position (it's more or less centered, near Pinchpenny and Shambletown, could have it's own black market at start and leaves docks a bit more isolated -must control East Sleaze gangs first).
Will appreciate any advice or opinion on how this is going, so I can move on to the next development stage / version.
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I really like the way this is turning out :)
I imagine there's a state of feud between the wizards and the technologists. Maybe there's a buffer zone of alchemists on the street that separates them. We could call it Chymical Court, with the east side alchemists tending toward the Doctrine of Signatures style of alchemy, while the ones on the west side put more faith in the Theory of Atoms.
Northshade is good. I was thinking "Manorside", but I like yours better. Still haven't thought of better names for East and West Sleaze Street yet, though.
The Sleaze Street market is the Fleamarket. The Black Market isn't a place so much as an invitation only trade meet called on the quayside from time to time. Usually in the back of an abandoned warehouse at the dead of night.
I entirely agree with your thoughts on connections.
I'll get back on the subject of the temple. I think it's getting on for my bedtime ...
/me yaaaawns...
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well, we could go off of something like smell, the west side would have a very harse smell, due to the fact that any water would drain that way (since it's beside the harbor), and if there are any type of gutters it would lead there, so it could be something like sleazy mephitis/redolence/fetor (ok, something that means stench...I got these from thesaurus.com) there might be more thievery in the east side (since there are two market close on hand) it could be something like cutpurse slums. it would also have the people with more money in it, since merchants, and trades men would want to live close to where they sell there wares (like street vendors, not upper or fairly profitable merchants who would live in northshade)
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Disregard this if it's intentional, but there is no such thing as a pentagle. You probably want either "pentacle (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pentacle)" or "pentangle (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pentangle)".
Still haven't thought of better names for East and West Sleaze Street yet, though.
You can be super obvious about it and still have it keep a basis in reality. Historically, there have been Gropecunt lanes in many UK cities, not to mention the Pokeskirt alleys, Ticklecock bridges, and other straight-up Brothel streets. I'm not saying you should definitely pick something like that, but, well, you can pretty much go nuts with crude-but-honest names and not have to worry about sounding far-fetched.
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if pronounced with a british accent, both ticklecock and pokeskirt sound rather... classy
"lord ticklecock?"
"yes, sir pokeskirt?"
but, yeah just take two words and mash them together, knightswalk came out pretty good
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Also, remember that other languages can give a location a name that wasn't perverse in the original language but snicker inducing in another.
Lake Titicaca for example.
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How is acquiring territory going work with town wards?
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How about calling the west sleaze district "The Reek" which is about as direct as you can get. For the East Sleaze area ... something like "Tumbledon" where the name can reflect the poor state of repair of many of the buildings, the fact that a great many whores get take for a tumble there, or the tendency of unwary visitors to tumble down, after a local sneaks up behind them with a blackjack.
mmm.... I dunno. What do people think?
How is acquiring territory going work with town wards?
Each ward is going to have a number of businesses, an enemy stronghold, and some lesser enemy assets. Once you gain access you can start taking over businesses and raiding enemy locations. It's like the game in microcosm.
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Lake Titicaca for example.
Ah, the language issue... (Sigh)
Well, in Spanish mainland 'titi' is a castilian slang form (slightly naive / euphemistic) for 'pussy' and 'caca' means literally 'shit'. So maybe its quechua-aymara name origins meaning 'Rock Puma' were later adopted by conquerors wich had a wicked sense of humour.
Now, seriously, thanks to all folks wich contributed with ideas / names.
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Hmpf.
What can I say... I've been a few days off again. Anyway, I'm looking forward to get a full version before weekend.
I'm working on slums at this moment. Here's a preview:
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5889/sketch7layoutdevelop.jpg) (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/sketch7layoutdevelop.jpg/)
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Very nice!
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That's looking great!
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Wow, that's some nice progress. :)
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Ops...
I don't think I'll meet the 'before the weekend' deadline. I'll keep working on it and posting progress.
Cheers
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i feel like a total heel but i have to point one thing out to you guys, marketplaces in ANY town weren't restricted to one area simply because that's not where the customers are, the different markets had different offerings depending on what ward they were situated in but after all there were marketplaces in each and very ward. makes sense since the salespersons wants to sell items and the customers might not have time/inclination to go too far to buy things (have time, or may be embarrassed of looks or repulsed by other buyers, etc.) in other words, there is a markesquare in each ward good for making a clickable button if you like, just give the different marketplaces specific names and make them buttons. the wards can still have plots and specific buildings that relate to their area (like not being able to buy gladiators unless you are in the arena ward and so on).
just my normal ranting, feel free to point out my faults :)
oh and by the way, loooove the drawings of the town, looks awesome!!!!!
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Depends on the goods being sold. The rarer the goods the fewer stores that sell them. As well as the town my have zoning laws a bought where certain types of business can be located.
For the player point of view much of the daily goods used are bought in the background. Many of the items you get are specialist made or tailored goods which you would go looking for to get.
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I think Doc's idea was having not a single marketplace, but a number of small markets scattered through the city -almost one per ward. These small markets would have different type / quality items depending on the ward where they are. The number and variety of available items in the market district would be notoriously bigger than in other wards -hence the name.
By the way, I'm making slow progress lately. I left ward drawing definition aside to test some graphical stuff -colors, textures, and such. Here's how I think Wards Plan would look:
(http://j.imagehost.org/0657/Sketch8_PostProc2_1A.png) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0657/Sketch8_PostProc2_1A)
I'm still in trouble with temple district -I don't know "what" to draw, since there's no defined position regarding crossgate religion. I sketched temple district a bit, so I'm leaving it until some interesting stuff about whoremaster religions pops up (down to the bottom of the "to do" list). Yes, it looks like I have a "to do" list now, but I don't know how it started... :D
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I'm still in trouble with temple district -I don't know "what" to draw, since there's no defined position regarding crossgate religion. I sketched temple district a bit, so I'm leaving it until some interesting stuff about whoremaster religions pops up (down to the bottom of the "to do" list). Yes, it looks like I have a "to do" list now, but I don't know how it started... :D
I always liked the idea of crossgate having multiple religions. This would make the Temple district a mish mash of buildings dedicated to the various gods, goddesses and sacred cows of the multiverse. Some are high class, others are run down and abandon but the general feel is of a market place for the spirit. Everything seems to be for sale in crossgate, why not salvation?
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I thought that was the idea, Lorde. And so the initial sketch followed that criteria: a small range of temples of different religions coupled with service / living quarters for each (or for all of them). If there's no complains about that point, I will just finish the drawing.
It looks like this weekend I'm having plenty of free time, so I'm giving this town ward stuff a big push:
(http://h.imagehost.org/0507/Sketch10_Preprocessing.png) (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0507/Sketch10_Preprocessing)
Hi Res version, with post processing:
Sketch10_General_Layout.png (2.3 MB) (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0854/Sketch10_General_Layout)
Awaiting for opinions / feedback, like always. I've attached a txt file with current task progress / priority, just in case someone want to check it.
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the colors seem a bit sickly, what with all that green (the hi-res one even more so), personally, I'd prefer it to look more like a sketch
and the coat of arms is way off
it looks like a new age sect or something
the primary colors are too distracting, and not in balance with the rest of the map
overall it reminds of an open can of pea soup
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Mmmm, pea soup... Yummy :P
Yeah, I felt it screwed the colour balance. That was a test, the intention was composing city name, motto banner and coat of arms: size, placing, shape... I had no good ideas about the CoA, so I drawed the first thing that came to my mind. You know, "if you don't know where to begin, just begin anywhere". Looks like I got the thing started so you guys can complain, then I'll do something else -better- and that way we can move on...
Regarding the colour palette, it's a just basic model -there's a lot of post processing work to be done, including hue shifts, paper textures and effect stuff. I'm still testing a range of variations to see what seems to fit better, so feedback is welcomed.
On the other hand, criticism is cheap if not paired with wise suggestions... 8)
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Forget about him. I happen to think you did a good job. My only suggestion is to maybe make every district a different colour, so as to more easily tell them apart. Oh, and maybe explain the coat of arms. I don't really get it.
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I'm not bashing you, just saying what I think
and I did give a suggestion, wise or not
I'd like the map to look like a sketch of a map, complete with random scribbled notes and ruler marks, possibly getting completed as you acquire wards (with overlays of the real map)
but whenever I have a suggestion, I get screamed at for forcing my way on everything and everyone
as for more technical suggestions, if you want to keep the coat of arms where it is, you'd might want something in the sea part of the map to balance it out
lie those waves or dragons or boats you see in "old maps"
I don't like the coat of arms at all
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Calm down, Fixet. Last line of my post was "hey, there's no point in being that harsh", not "if you don't like it, go to hell".
I use to take every opinion into consideration. Obviously, there are some points that don't affect my work at all, usually related to game dynamics and such (go with those to dev team, I'm just the guy who draws the map). And I will tell the same tale again: the damm thing is not finished yet (usually, a dev's catchphrase :D , badumching!). There's still much to be done, I'm testing stuff as I slowly structure the drawing, test colours and textures, sketch the wards and add "map furnishings".
On the "map furnishings" issue, there's a bunch of them: city banner, motto and coat of arms are used almost always on city plans. Besides, there's the compass, the sea serpent, the "here be dragons", the wind blowing cloud / greek god and such. I'm beginning with the basics... but I'm open to good ideas.
You said you like it "sketch style". Know what? me too:
(http://j.imagehost.org/t/0290/Sketch10_FIXET_detail.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0290/Sketch10_FIXET_detail)
(http://h.imagehost.org/t/0171/Sketch10_FIXET.jpg) (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0171/Sketch10_FIXET)
The coat of arms, city banner and motto is something I would like to include. This does not mean that they have to be the first ones I drawed. So, if you people have any good ideas on this subject, now it's the right time: Coat of Arms and City motto (the name stays the same, I guess...)
The coat of arms at this moment is not the best, I ran out of ideas. On the other hand, I think the city motto is a good one: "Quod magia non dat, vis non praestat" -Which (whatever) magic doesn't give (achieve), violence (might, strenght) doesn't lend (gives instead of, substitutes).
And, Shinteo, different colour is possible but I was trying to make them "look" different using various block shapes and street structure for each ward so it worked even in monochrome.
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I am calm
I didn't mean to come off as hostile, and I like the city layout
the new pics you posted look awesome
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If it were just a map, I'd be with fixet on preferring a sketch map, as I find that more appealing, but I think for a game map, a more solid appearance would be more fitting. Buttons atop the sketch would look very... odd, afterall. For what colors I'd suggest using for that... I'm honestly not too sure. I do think perfectly flat colors aren't the way to go though. A subtle texture effect over the individual blocks maybe? That way you could use less colors, but with the varying size and shapes, it would help to create more of a contrast.
As for the Coat of Arms, I think it looks off because the primary symbol feels closed off and trapped. If you removed the white triangle, kept the contrasting colors on the left and right, and scaled up the symbol, I think it'd look a lot better. You'd probably want to color the gate and sun though.
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Game interface integration :o Good point. Thanks, mate.
Had to add that to my list. Anyway, only Doc knows about the new map interface, and a funny thing happened to him in the way to the forum... So, I think I'll work over the existing one.
I've made some quick tests, and I have to say it is definitively possible to use sketch style maps on the interface. I've found it harder to use solid color ones, as black fractal background and cyan interface / buttons are little friendly with the Oblivion style brownish monochrome map I had in mind.
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9848/sketch10fixetinterface.png) (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/sketch10fixetinterface.png/)
Other approach could be the integration of the game interface on the map (and not the opposite). I've made a test changing the hue of the town wards map to match the cyan interface so the buttons look "embeded" in the map. Looks ugly, but I retain the idea just in case the sketched style map does not make it.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/636/sketch10interface.png) (http://img178.imageshack.us/i/sketch10interface.png/)
The coat of arms is a tricky matter. It's not only the "graphism" issue (wich can be fixed doing the sort of things that you proposed). Purists will probably want a more symbolic / heraldic approach. And, combining the two, a great (and futile) controversy can arise. If I hadn't had enough controversy with the religions issue (wich is, in fact, one of the most controversial subjects in human history), maybe I would start another one...
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I can't think of any cities that have a coat of arms of their own :-\ seems to be more a guild/family thing, which seems to be a bit closer concept than a lot of people would think...
but looking through some old coats.... I don't see anything to complain about this one
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Ha, I hadn't though of the background and bottom buttons clashing. I was only thinking about the brothel, marketplace, slaver, ect ect buttons. Now I feel silly for missing that.
As for the coat of arms, to be honest, I've never understood people getting up in arms over their symbolism. The way Coats of Arms vary make it difficult to find a benchmark, and more often then not, the symbolism is so basic it could apply to anything, like London's. Either that or it beats you over the head with it, like the Vatican's.
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Coat of arms and type that says "City of Crossgate" is pretty big in my opinion... Code of Arms is anyways. Besides, shouldn't they be smudged a little if it's supposed to be like an old map? It stands out too much for my taste, but it could be me. (Graphic designer here) as for the map, I think it looks great!
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Coat of arms and type that says "City of Crossgate" is pretty big in my opinion... Code of Arms is anyways. Besides, shouldn't they be smudged a little if it's supposed to be like an old map? It stands out too much for my taste, but it could be me. (Graphic designer here) as for the map, I think it looks great!
I agree there because for the time frame that i think we have for this is middle ages and at that time they were using quills to write so some ink blotches and smudges would add to the character of the game not detract from it
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Since we were already considering having locked areas grayed out, perhaps we could just have the base map in that sketch style and each unlocked available area of the city show up in color and/or with more detail.
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Of course, the coat of arms, city name and motto were meant to add a 'medieval' flavour.
The coat of arms stuff is not blurred and stands out because I forgot post-processing and just pasted it on the top layer, hehehe. And, yeah, maybe they could be smaller (or at least have less "weight")... you end looking at them instead of the city plan.
If we're going on with the sketch style map, some scratches, smudges and ink efffects could be added. Never done that before, since my personal preference tends to be pencil / graphite / charcoal instead of ink. So, to all graphic artists: I could use some help with filters and/or post processing procedure to make those effects.
Regarding the coat of arms type and city motto, if you have any ideas or found some interesting stuff over the internet, please feel free to contribute.
On the locked / unlocked ward issue, I think the way could be giving full detail to the unlocked wards and leave others blurred and half-sketched. I already had some ideas on that subject, so I'll do some testing and post results.
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If we're going on with the sketch style map, some scratches, smudges and ink efffects could be added. Never done that before, since my personal preference tends to be pencil / graphite / charcoal instead of ink. So, to all graphic artists: I could use some help with filters and/or post processing procedure to make those effects.
You Likey?
(http://img155.imagevenue.com/loc116/th_87105_Map_Modded_122_116lo.jpg) (http://img155.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=87105_Map_Modded_122_116lo.jpg)
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Yes, that's the stuff. I didn't thought about the multiple fold effect, looks more real... more 'map'. Maybe it would look even better with more folding marks, and those a little less 'heavy' so the city plan doesn't lose information on the folding zone.
The blur looks like real hand blurring... you know, sometimes when you're quick-sketching with pencil or charcoal you can blur the paper while moving the hand.
Paper texture is a little crispy and that coupled with the brownish tone would match the Oblivion leather map style better than the sketch type. And it could have issues with the interface and buttons colour / style as well. Anyway, looking at the quick sample looks like it could work:
(http://a.imagehost.org/0163/Sketch_10_LORDE_Interface.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0163/Sketch_10_LORDE_Interface)
So, I'm going deeper into the folding marks and blur thing and see how it looks in the pencil sketch style. That also could help in the unlocked / locked wards issue: an accidental hand blurring, partial sketch, white zones with handwriting and such.
Damm it, there's too many things I would like to try, and have little time.
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I personally don't really care for the fold lines, they seem like too much of a distraction to me. A bit of mild staining and smudging I could take or leave.
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yeah I thought the fold lines might have been a bit much... but it look so cool while I was doing it. Let me see if I can cook something up a bit less cluttered.
Paper texture is a little crispy and that coupled with the brownish tone would match the Oblivion leather map style better than the sketch type. And it could have issues with the interface and buttons colour / style as well. Anyway, looking at the quick sample looks like it could work:
Was actually shooting for Oblivion. You can easily get an old, weathered look using dark browns but you run the risk of themap looking like it was drawn on a paper bag... Ok let me try this again :D
Ok have something.
(http://img150.imagevenue.com/loc85/th_03386_Map_Modded_3_122_85lo.jpg) (http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=03386_Map_Modded_3_122_85lo.jpg)
... not sure If I'm happy with this. I tried playing around with the contrast more to get most of the maps detail through after I added all the layers. Problem was, I ended up bringing a ton of eraser and smudge marks back from the dead. So that's the Maximum I can get on the maps detail without everything looking drowned out in a big black smear.
Went with lighter shading and less "doodads and bodangles" but did do some page curling... which I think looks fugly as sin... you guys might like it though so I left it.
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I'm digging the general color scheme and the idea of page curling, but I think that the dark streak's obfuscating the town a bit, and the colors need to blend into each other a bit because it seems just a bit patchy as is. For the corners, I think just adding a little bit of texture and fray on the edges should make things look a lot more realistic.
::Edit:: If you're using Photoshop, I'd recommend using a second layer, throw some gradients on it, so that the colors will blend together, then just shifting the transparency 'til it's at the right level. Maybe even try 2 or 3 layers of aging colors to blend the colors even more.
I'd love to show you what I mean myself, but I don't have Photoshop installed since my last hard drive crashed, and I have no idea where the disc got to.
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Well I guess I could try my hand at messing with the map a bit but I gotta say, I was a lot happier with it when it didn't have all the folds, obscure textures and fancy page curls. I can see where you're trying to go with it... but I'm thinking function over form at this point. You're losing the map in some of these newer ones and that's the part you DON'T want to lose.
But again, maybe I'll whip something up by tomorrow or something.
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I actually use 1 layer per color. And I tend to Gaussian blur the hell out of everything.
I was trying for a rolled up effect with the dark streak. (Go ahead and Laugh, I deserve it :D )
The patchiness was me trying to mimic effects of my grandmothers wall (she smokes a lot.) But now that I think about it... thats pretty disgusting. (Does look aged though.)
Think I'm just going to go for aged and weathered with detail next. (I'm obscuring the hell out of the map with all this.) I really should just follow the old adage of "keep it simple stupid".
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I'm going to go ahead and try to find my copy of Photoshop and try to take a stab at it, but I'm afraid it might be just a bit futile. I'll post back if I manage to track it down and knock something out. If I can, I'll try to make the map lines just a bit bolder, too.
It's been a while since I've bothered with photoshop... I'm wondering; Is there any way to make a layer use a separate layer to guide actions? i.e. Can I use fill on an empty layer, but only have it fill an area restricted by the lines of another layer? That way, I could create an overlay layer with the colors that would be filled in on the map as the player conquers each territory. There's certainly other ways to do it, but that seems like it would be simplest.
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Right clicking the layer and choosing "create clipping mask" should do what you are asking. It will clip the layer to the one beneath it. It gets a little finicky when you change Blending Modes of the underlying layer though.
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Ok, Minimalist "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) approach to the "old and weathered" Crossgate map.
(http://img264.imagevenue.com/loc242/th_20832_Map_Modded_4_122_242lo.jpg) (http://img264.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=20832_Map_Modded_4_122_242lo.jpg)
Note: I used one of the "see nipples under white shirts in photoshop" techniques to bring out the contrast of the cities details without getting all the eraser smudges. When I did that however, the Crossgate Coat of Arms turned blue for some reason. (It shouldn't have... but that's what happened.)
I kinda like the way that looks :D
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This last one is actually quite nice. Only thing that I don't like is the text for the coat of arms... the blue looks nice though. lol guess I won't have to take a stab at it after all. I'd still suggest a new texture... looks more like a wall than paper.
Maybe these will work?
http://shadowhousecreations.blogspot.com/2010/06/texture-of-day-3-dirty-paper-textures.html (Probably the best ones)
http://free-web-design.co.cc/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/wallpaper-texture-old-paper.jpg
http://fotki.yandex.ru/tags/текстура/users/flashtuchka/view/44130?how=rating&page=15
http://fantasystock.deviantart.com/art/Seamless-Parchment-Texture-58517493
These are just from a quick google search of "Parchment paper" i'm sure there's much better ones.
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first and last look great the others i couldn't even see
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Heeey, that was fast!
Mmmm... I'm still not sure about brownish style maps, but I had little time to try the new stuff yesterday. Then I saw the new samples and all I can say now is: lots of good ideas (and of course, good paper texture sources -thanks, Mehzerz), give me some time to put them together -I think I can draw something real good looking. I'm sure the point is blending the effects in the right proportion (subtle and simple -kiss: 'keep it simple stupid' :D ), so city plan gets not eclipsed
And, for future test / samples, try to include the interface and buttons. Game interface is something I didn't had in mind until Amoeba pointed it out, and now I see it's important.
Edit: CoA in blue? Maybe looks better.
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Lorde:I have not seen the other versions of the map,only these last 2,you seemed to get the first rather well but the dark crease/fold attempt messed it up
Mehzerz is right,the the second one looks more like a wall,the problem is that grain like effect you gave it for more texture is too strong and the detail of the lines of the city map are too sharp.
That first link Mehzerz gave has a good example of the effect you are trying to achieve.
anyway just some comments hope wil be of use(not an artist or anything.....)
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anyway just some comments hope wil be of use(not an artist or anything.....)
Neither am I really. But I do like to play in Photoshop. ;D
Anyway Thanks for the links Mehz. When I get more free time I'll try to duplicate those effects. Might even cheat a little and transpose the map details onto one of the images. :D
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I think the most important thing for a game map is clarity. I don't mind if the map is a schematic, or browned and aged, but the player needs to be able to read it without effort.
From that viewpoint, I'd tend toward the initial map style, purely for the clarity. The brown map approach does add more atmosphere to the game, but I think if we want to go that route, we need the map detail overlaid onto the brown. Not terribly realistic, but easier to read.
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I may have a bead on a new copy of photoshop that won't cost me $200, so I might be able to put something together in the next day or two.
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Working on pencil-sketch style at the moment (looks clearest to me). Trying to add some FX flavour without losing clarity -and to finish wards at the same time. Lots of work, little time.
By the way, welcome back Doc. Hope you can eat now better stuff than hospital 'food'.
P.D. Any ideas about map interface, Doc?
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By the way, welcome back Doc. Hope you can eat now better stuff than hospital 'food'.
Thanks :)
P.D. Any ideas about map interface, Doc?
mmmm... nothing offhand. I think I need to do some catch-up reading. Are there any specific issues, or is it just "how do we want this to work?"
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Are there any specific issues, or is it just "how do we want this to work?"
Hehehe, it's the later.
Several forum fellows have contributed with good ideas and suggestions, but in fact we know little. Seems like I've drawn a city plan -more or less- but in fact I don't know how the 'map screen' is intended to work. We have found some good stuff, though:
First, looks like it has to be some kind of difference (graphically) between locked and unlocked wards. I'm testing, still not ready.
So far, the best bet appears to be a sketch style map (probably monochrome or grey-scale). It can be clear enough for players, some subtle FX can be mixed in for flavour (paper texture, blur, scratches, maybe paperfolds...), and places of interest can be added as an overlay without much trouble (at least I hope so).
Well, as I didn't have a clear idea of how it had to work, I'm working on a hi-res, 4:3 proportion (like 800x600 current game window), multi-layer file so changes can be made with relative ease. I have several ideas on the 'map interface' subjetc, but as I'm currently doing some flash demo stuff for the map screen maybe it's better that I finish that, so we all can see how it looks, then devs decide what's worth to be coded.
I don't have much free time lately, but I'll try to get something done by the weekend.
P.D. Feel like I should get into the google wave stuff asap.
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Several forum fellows have contributed with good ideas and suggestions, but in fact we know little. Seems like I've drawn a city plan -more or less- but in fact I don't know how the 'map screen' is intended to work. We have found some good stuff, though:
First, looks like it has to be some kind of difference (graphically) between locked and unlocked wards. I'm testing, still not ready.
Yeah, that's good. We'll need that.
So far, the best bet appears to be a sketch style map (probably monochrome or grey-scale). It can be clear enough for players, some subtle FX can be mixed in for flavour (paper texture, blur, scratches, maybe paperfolds...), and places of interest can be added as an overlay without much trouble (at least I hope so).
Yeah, agreed. That way we can unmask locations when the player finds them, and allow modders to add their own icons.
Well, as I didn't have a clear idea of how it had to work, I'm working on a hi-res, 4:3 proportion (like 800x600 current game window), multi-layer file so changes can be made with relative ease. I have several ideas on the 'map interface' subjetc, but as I'm currently doing some flash demo stuff for the map screen maybe it's better that I finish that, so we all can see how it looks, then devs decide what's worth to be coded.
I've been thinking of having things work more or less as they do at the moment, maybe with a filter panel to toggle different sorts of icons. I had thought about a zoom mode too, but I think that's going to have to be a WM2 feature now.
Look forward to seeing the flash in any case :)
I don't have much free time lately, but I'll try to get something done by the weekend.
P.D. Feel like I should get into the google wave stuff asap.
I know the feeling. Just register with Wave and PM me the address it creates for you if you want in :)
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I think the most important thing for a game map is clarity. I don't mind if the map is a schematic, or browned and aged, but the player needs to be able to read it without effort.
From that viewpoint, I'd tend toward the initial map style, purely for the clarity. The brown map approach does add more atmosphere to the game, but I think if we want to go that route, we need the map detail overlaid onto the brown. Not terribly realistic, but easier to read.
I was shooting for cranking up the contrast on the map while getting rid of eraser marks and stuf. That and keeping most of the "Atmosphere Smudges" ™ as far away from the map details as I could get. But then free time went bye bye so all that's left from my contribution to the map project is the unsightly "Amateur DM Map Maker" stuff I left there. :D
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Yeah, I actually don't mind the original map. I'd just take out the coat of arms or make it smaller or smudge it a little or all of the above. Do something. It's just way too distracting...
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Finally got Photoshop working... here's a 10 minute job, just to show a basic idea. Image quality's downscaled a bit so it would fit as an attachment. The color's a bit simple at the moment, but think the texture's nice without being overbearing. Let me know what you think.
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Nice. The texture works without sacrificing clarity.
If we can overlay icons onto something like that, I'd be happy :)
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It's a bit gray for my tastes, at the moment. I'm working on making it a bit more brown, and then I was going to try to make a color overlay, so that on hovering, the different areas of the map will be highlighted in their own color.
Now, for the overlay, do I need to make a separate overlay for each distinct section of town, or can I just make one large one for the entire map?
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one for the map, I think, and then a "fog-of-war" mask for each ward.
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Mmmkay... haven't done any "fog-of-war" stuff before, but I'm sure I can work it out... just have to get a gradient with the right settings.
Here's a map with a little more work... much more brown and a good deal more texture.
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Alright, alright... now I need to get a the color scheme pinned down (if any developers would like to tell me exactly what color should go where and which sections actually need their own separate colors), but I've got the basic idea working. Also, the Temple and Court/Keep/Garrison areas are sketched a bit rougher, so I'll have to fill in some gaps before I can add color there.
Anyway, here's the basic concept of how the color overlay looks on the brown map.
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This map keeps getting better!
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Mmmkay... haven't done any "fog-of-war" stuff before, but I'm sure I can work it out... just have to get a gradient with the right settings.
It just means "you can't see what's in this area because you've not been there yet".
Alright, alright... now I need to get a the color scheme pinned down (if any developers would like to tell me exactly what color should go where and which sections actually need their own separate colors), but I've got the basic idea working. Also, the Temple and Court/Keep/Garrison areas are sketched a bit rougher, so I'll have to fill in some gaps before I can add color there.
I don't know to be honest. I'm still trying to make up for being out of it for the best part of a month, where this thread is concerned. Anyone?
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Haha... no, I'm *familiar* with the term, I've just never created the *effect* before.
Oh, and regarding the fog-of-war, I'm thinking that I'll have to either create a separate overlay for the areas of town the player has yet to progress through, in which case I would need to know how the player will progress through town, or, if the progression is more open, then I'll need to create separate fogged areas for each unlockable section (which I'm not sure I can make look as good.) I'll fool around for a bit and see what I can do.
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Been playing around with colors a bit more... here's a scheme that has colors from one area flowing into its neighbors' a bit better. I also liked the idea of an area becoming more and more distinctly colored as you take control (opaqueness of the overlay corresponds directly to percentage owned by player [if it works for whoever's coding it.])
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So is the plan to make the map color coded by zone (clarity for single team) or who is in control (like most strategy games)? I like the idea of showing who's in control of the zones but it makes it much harder to rationalize the introduction of later high-level gangs. The biggest issue would be most players really hate having territory arbitrarily taken to make a new rival.
BTW this map keeps getting more awesome!
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Yeah TF is definitely doing a better job at this then me. Kudos!
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I think I like the 25% one best. Subtle, but you can still see what's going on.
I have this vague memory (I really must re-read this thread from the start) of colour coding areas based on access level. Although, I really wouldn't mind just using the colours to more strongly differentiate different areas.
[edit]
The access levels were going to be something like this:
- No access - player can't go here at all
- Access Only - player can operate here, but has no base in this sector.
- Contested - player has a base, but so does one or more rival gangs
- Controlled - player controls all the bases in this sector.
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Because the coat of arms bothered me so much (picky I know) I changed it myself.
(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/7504/92615220.th.jpg) (http://img825.imageshack.us/i/92615220.jpg/)
As for the fog of war I attempted to do something like that, and it turned out poorly... i don't know how else you could do it other than just putting complete blocks of color over each area and saying "inaccessable" or something like that.
I mean isn't there enough fog of war granted you can't go to those places unless there's icons on top of them anyways? I'd just pick a color for the player and color them that color as you take them over. Since the place is sectioned off via a very strict path you'd have to conquer each area before being able to tackle another anyways.
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I don't actually know the plan at the moment, so I was just throwing out some stuff I'd played around with to give an idea what *can* be done. I could certainly work a couple overlays that would represent a distinct color for whichever gang owns each district at the moment, with a separate color for areas in contention. In that case, I'd use two different degrees of fog for whether an area had no access or limited access (and the fog goes away once it's contested.)
Another possibility is to have each area have it's own distinct color and let the opacity of the color determine what state of ownership it's in (like the four pictures I posted at once [but ignoring the non-colored area of the map... I hadn't bothered creating an actual overlay template using just the colored regions, so the overlay function messed with the rest of the map, too.])
After I get the color scheme sorted, I can change the coat of arms (add color, fade it back, etc.)
So I guess I'll just wait to hear what kind of color scheme the devs want before I do anything else with the color, but in the meantime, I'm playing around with fog-of-war effects to try to get something working there.
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did you try 10-15% opacity? You could do that for inaccessible areas. Then knock it up to about 30-40 once the area is unlocked. I really like the look of 25% and 50% is just way too much. So maybe we can get a good balance going and that'd be enough to make which areas are accessible without taking away from the design aspect too much.
Side note:
It looks like instead of making the colors individually brighter you're making the whole map brighter. I wouldn't suggest doing that... taking the long painful route would look much better. (But I assume for color testing sake that was just an example, just sayin')
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Like I said, ignore the non-colored areas for now. I need to build a template to adjust only the colored areas, and I'm not going to bother until I know what the color scheme is going to be, otherwise I'm just jerking off (in the unproductive metaphorical sense.)
Since people seem to like a subtler blend, here's 10, 20 and 30% to pin down what you like.
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Of those, I think I like the 20% version.
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Nice work, TF!
I'm a bit busy right now -trying to do too many things at a time. Seeing TF solved paper textures, ward color coding, etc. I think I'll focus on the 'Fog of War' and finishing drawing of remaining wards (Temple district too). I'm puting aside flash stuff for now as well.
P.D. We can use Mehzerz's modified Coat of Arms, or we can just don't use any CoA if you don't like it.
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I like the idea of having a coat of arms. Maybe we do something with it - like click on the CoA for a page of background information about the city.
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(Assuming the idea is one level of opacity for closed off areas and one for opened) is that 20% for locked or unlocked, Doc?
I suppose locked areas could just be the standard brown, fog-of-war over anything completely inaccessable, which is removed when you open limited access, one standard color for any area that's in contention and then the area's individual color would be set once you take complete control.
Could work it the other way round, though, where the player has their own color and all the map areas are already colored in. Then, as you take each area over, the map color is replaced with the player color.
Also, fog-of-war could work a couple different ways as well; Removed as access is unlocked, as I mentioned above, or removed from any map areas *adjacent* to areas the player fully (or partially) controls.
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I promised some thoughts on Crossgate History and the Temple District.
Crossgate History
Basically, I want to try and explain why I think Crossgate has to be a minor provincial town. The logic is like this:
The gangs control Crossgate, but they don't rule. There's a mayor and a city guard not under the control of the gangs. Now, if crossgate were an independent city state or the capital of a nation, I think the gangs would have used their dominance to seize power, and the gang leaders would all be the heads of noble houses. So I think there has to be some massively powerful external force that keeps the gangs from getting over-ambitious. So I think the city is part of a kingdom or empire. Let's say Empire.
Now if Crossgate was close to the center of government, I think someone would have sent in the military by now. Having an ongoing font of civil disorder at the heart of the empire is a political liability. And if it was distant but still important, I think someone would have send a legion by now, if only to stop the city falling into enemy hands. So I think it has to be distant and considered to be of low importance for the gangs to be tolerated.
I don't think this was alway the case, however. Someone went to the trouble to build a fortress there, so I suspect that at one time someone was concerned about the possibility of invasion. Possibly by some extra-dimensional force. Whatever the case though, I don't think anyone gives much creedence to that idea these days.
Let me take a stab on giving a possible history that could explan Crossgate. Lets say that this Empire was very magically powerful and has always been fuled by conquest. After conquoring as much of the world as the Empire could reasonably hold (areas outside of the Empire are just too tough to make it worth conquoring) the Empire looked towards magic to provide new lands to conquor.
Crossgate has always been a place where the barrier between worlds has been weak. Traditionally, a large number of demon summoners have come from here. Crossgate was origionally founded as a mages collage with the Empire's military having a strong presence. Experiments in breaching other dimensions went on for decades before a process was developed to create a stable portal into other dimensions which was large enough for an entire Legion to invade, or to perform trade.
Unfortunately the experiments have rendered the dimensional barrier around Crossgate unstable. The Empire decided to pull the Collage and the portal to the capital where they could keep a closer watch on it and directly benifit from both. The Empire kept a full garrison at Crossgate initially to prevent the unstable portals from becomming a threat to the rest of the Empire. However, after the machinery used by the Collage were removed from Crossgate the unstable portals begain to subside and were reduced to the level of a nuicence. With the Empire committed to invading other dimensions the local garrison has been reduced to little more than a police force.
While the unstable portals arn't worth the full attention of the Empire, the items and people that come through them are highly prized in many cities of the Empire. The less savory elements of the Empire were drawn to Crossgate like a moth to a flame. Gangs sprang up with each of them claiming areas of the city as their territory. At first the Govenor tried to keep the illegal activites in check, but soon realized that he wouldn't have the men nesessary to do so. Instead he chose to pit the gangs against each other only using his soliders to raid gangs occasionally when he feels they have lost respect for the Empire or threaten his power.
Over time the item trade diminished as larger supplies of cross-dimensional goods were made available through legitimate sources. This lead to the main source of income for the gangs to decline. Instead the gangs started to market exotic slaves. Crossgate itself started to gain a reputation of having excellent brothels with exotic beauties from other dimensions. Nobels and other wealthy merchants and soldiers from other cities come to Crossgate to sample the girls for themselves.
Brothels are now an established part of the Crossgate culture. The gangs act as a first line defense against whatever may come through the portals. With the gangs running the brothels and them in turn being dependent on tourists for business they tend to act low key as far as outsiders go. That doesn't stop them from fighting in the streets, but it does stop them from challenging the rulers of the city directly.
The catacombs themselves are a byproduct of the last set of magical research. Some of the areas are where the machines that provided the stable portal were housed. Those areas themselves were strengthened and made stable in a sort of between worlds space. The brothel we as players own happens to have access in its basement to one of these rooms. The farther you travel from this room the less stable the underground area becomes. Our father managed to get some of the old research notes and was able to convince a retired wizard to make a few "beacons" that allow someone wandering the catacombs to find their way back.
Anyways, hope DocClox finds something in here he can use.
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i'm just wondering whats the chances we might see this in the game before august? for i am very interested in expanding areas to use and manipulate to the whim of my whore empire
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You will never see this in the game.
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whats the game in like beta 3.1? so id say probably aorund 5.1