Pink Petal Games

PyTFall => PyTFall: Game design => Topic started by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 03:02:38 AM

Title: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 03:02:38 AM
There you will be able to track the current development of Approved ST concept and post for proposal should be agreed on to be updated in this first post
First of all keep in mind Devs does not want to over complicate the coding so adding 1 new stats/skill is not really welcomed but possible
If possible use stats/skills that are in game atm
As for traits.. if they have a ST value give a explanation on what they will affect stats/skill..
All suggestions for building upgrades or security upgrades involving ST are welcomed

( Main reason for thumb down is.. lots of scaling with other modules that arent in game atm are worked on ) so if your idea was not accepted try to think of a way to adapt it to current development concept


ST Concept

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What to you need to start being a slaver-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Location:
 well to start slave training you would need a dungeon in either special building or MC house.. why dungeon.. for base security reason.. and
 for MC walk laziness unless you want to spend AP moving from a building to another..

Gear:
 would need to have slave movement restraining gear

Security/Upgrades:
 basic cell to lock her up and room with minimum training tools and minimum or none ST guards/trainers
 so you would have to upgrade security everywhere.. train ST guards to take her from her cell to training room ( you or trainer do that if no ST guards )
 improving her cell security training room security and so on..

MC related:
 maybe have some self training in ST MC could learn from Pytfall general trainers or buying ST books in shops
 ( could possibly show that MC is able to train slave if he has a starting slave trainer trait learning it from trainers or books )

                                                                                                                       ------ IN DEVELOPMENT ------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ST Stats/Traits used outside module-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stats:
 Obedience

Traits:
(NEEDS APPROVAL) wherent refused in first concept but neither accepted so possible candidates:

 MC action will be limited to his AP.. at start it could use 2 ap until slave vit is down to minimum ( going under will add a malus to her max daily vit regen ) but as you train her.. her con stat will increase making you able to use more ap before reaching her minimum vit ( old concept using resistance may not work atm )
 MC should have a cap he need to train/grow that prevents him to do some training ex:
 MC cha could increase obedience training rate or increase char breaking rate ( could aslo reduce slave char regen ) also could give you better price while buying selling slaves
 MC libido to lock max sexual training actions or MC con to limit physical interactions ( like punishments )
 MC trait that would increase over time using breaking slave training action ( making him more efficient to brake future slaves ) need to find a trait name
 MC trait that would increase over time using obedience slave training action ( making him more efficient to make slave obey for future slaves ) need to find a trait name
 MC trait that would increase over time using teaching stat to a  slave training action ( making him more efficient to make slave learn stats for future slaves ) need to find a trait name
 MC trait that would increase over time using buying/identify a  slave ( making him more efficient to buy cheaper and chance to identify some hidden girl stats/traits on future slaves )
 MC trait that would increase over time using selling a slave ( making him more efficient to sell future slaves for profit ) need to find a trait name
 MC trait that would reduce damaging the slave your training ( making him having the best result doing minimum damage ) need to find a name for that like able torturer
 
 Combined ones:
 MC breaking/obed training could be merged as 1 trait like ( slave trainer ) could also reduce dmg done on slave if you abuse her too much ( or make a separate trait for that )
 MC buying/identify/selling slaves ( slave merchant ) would reveal parts oh her hidden stats/traits depending on rank, damaged slave would sell for less of course..
 MC stat/job related training.. maybe need unique trait ( like ponygirls trainers in some other games ) up to you to decide

                                                                                                                       ------ IN DEVELOPMENT ------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What will make your girl willing to run / suicide-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Escape:
 from start she would want to run/escape
 would need special slave outfit/gear to prevent her from running to some extend then rest would be with ST guard and building containing holding cell security option
 could daily trigger a even checking her current obed+obedience related factor and if failed to meet a minimum for the trigger. then start the escape event
 she could have a chance to remove parts of her restraining gear.. then would have to evade/fight ST guards then pass/counter building security
keeping her on drugs outside training sessions could reduce the chance ( at a cost on your pockets or materials )

Suicide:
 From start she woulnd have gived up on living just yet..
 could use joy to determine her willingness to live since mood isnt an option atm.. abusive mental action on training would reduce her joy making her more willing to suicide
 would need the praising/rewarding option when she doesnt resist a training giving her some joy.. or general talk encouragement else her joy could drain too fast
 of course could limit encouragement on daily basis or 1 time per day or MC cha stat base limited
every day trigger to start suicide event if she fail joy check ? wearing some slave gear could reduce her suicide options.. coulnd bite her thong if wearing ball gag.. and so on..
she would have to remove parts of her slave gear preventing her to suicide.. also if chained to a wall it would restric her running into a wall breaking her skull
keeping her on drugs outside training sessions could reduce the chance ( at a cost on your pockets or materials )

                                                                                                                       ------ IN DEVELOPMENT ------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Training (NEEDS APPROVAL)parts of it wherent refused in first concept but neither accepted-----

Breaking: ( break that tough shell/pride/attitude of her's )
 
    Talks: ( needs to find topics making her lose her will/character ) psychological DMG effect reducing her Character but reducing her Joy
               Explaining her situation..
               Telling her no one could find her here..
               Telling her you always wanted to have so fun with a girl like her..
               
     Actions: ( needs to find actions making her lose her will/character ) physical DMG effect reducing her Character and energy with possible hp loss
                Feather torture..
                Candle wax torture..
                vibe/rotor... ( aka pleasure torture ) could be used using ap and drain a certain amount of char each time or used on chaining her to a wall making her lose more daily char
                                    over time ( could reveal nympho trait )
                Force her to lick your boot..
                Force her to..

     Items: ( make her wear things that would shame her.. limited option since she could wear parts of salve outfit )
                Cat ears ( head )..
                ass plug ( misc )..
                nightmare orb ( amulet )
                existing slave gear..

     General Rules:               
                Rule to make her call you Master.. ( Master could be ok but could use something more breaking oriented as Master is used for obedience already )
                Rule about her orgasm.. ( forbid her to make her lose character ) well SM types could do it with candle wax torture, sensitive types with feather torture
                Rule about sleep conditions.. ( bad sleeping condition to teach her her place ) could impact joy and energy/hp recover
                Rule about food.. ( restrictive.. need her character to go down ) beware of hp/con loss if used on long periods

Obedience: ( now that she's willing to listen make her obey your orders )

    Talks: ( needs to find topics making her increase her obedience with you ) psychological DMG effect increasing her Obedience but reducing her Joy
               Ask her who's her daddy.. if its not you.. punishment...
               Ask her her name.. if its not pig( or something else you defined ) punishment...
               
     Actions: ( needs to find actions making her increase her obedience with you ) physical DMG effect increasing her Obedience but reducing energy with possible hp loss
               Ask her to lick your boot..
               Ask her to.......

     Items: ( make her wear things that would make her dominated limited option since she could wear parts of salve outfit )
                gag ball ( head )..
                bondage ropes ( misc )..
                mind control orb ( amulet )..
                existing slave gear..

     General Rules:               
                Rule to make her call you Master..
                Rule about her orgasm.. ( forbid her to make her obey ) need more thinking on that 1 would need to expand actions first atm could use SM types again
                Rule about sleep conditions.. ( bad sleeping condition to teach her who's the master ) could impact joy and energy/hp recovery
                Rule about food.. ( restrictive.. need her obedience to go up ) beware of hp/con loss if used on long periods

Job related: ( now that she listen and obey make her do something useful )

      training course ( of course it can be refused if girl obed isnt high enough or traits goes against it or arch type against it then girl would need to be punished to gain obed or if not punished lose obed )
                will focus on targeted job and will increase those stats or add only job related traits if any exist for that job ( ex; service could add  barmaid.. maid.. waitress.. )
                could add a x% resist on learning that stat for every 100 stat reached ( or decide other number )
                ex : service training..  will increase service/con ( maybe should only use sub or do that training to get service/con without sub job bonus success )
                sub service : maid will increase service/con/agy and will give a chance to give trait maid with a small x% ( that x% increase with how many time you took that training course )
                sub service : barmaid will increase service/con/int/cha/agy and will give a chance to give trait barmaid with a small x% ( that x% increase with how many time you took that training course )
                sub service : waitress will increase service/cha/int/agy and will give a chance to give trait waitress with a small x% ( that x% increase with how many time you took that training course )
                     
                for whore it would train her cha/con/ref/sex skill witch could reveal hidden traits like nympho
                stripper.. no subs to expand on so will increase the stats cha/con/strip/agy
 
     Talks:
                encourage.. could boost temporarily the stat you gain for any job you want to train (could boost morale)
                talks making her reveal traits,,,

     City jobs:(may teach her skills the basic in real working conditions but would have to be obedient to some degree to do then and always accompanied by you/trainers/ST guards)


     Items: ( make her wear things that would increase her joy/job performance with less or no slave outfit parts)
                various joy items..
                various job related items..
                existing slave gear..

     General Rules:( less abusive than in other training phases will focus on making her learn the desired job and would use a carrot rather than a stick..)               
                Rule to make her call you ( whatever )..
                Rule about her orgasm.. ( still possible to forbid her but for the libido to get sex with or for whore training )
                Rule about dressing conditions.. ( make her wear something to improve hey joy/training job treated bonus but keep in mind not too much if going for strip job )
                Rules about cleaning.. ( oriented to make her gain cleaning experience while improving her training condition  )
                Rule about sleep conditions.. ( oriented on good sleeping condition this time to improve joy and willingness to learn job )
                Rule about food.. ( less restrictive based on feeding her well to get joy )

Punishments: ( whenever she break a rule, refuse action, refuse talk,.. )

Rewards: ( when ever she follows a rule, accept action, accept talk,.. )

Could add cleaning at all stages to reduce dirt..
could add cooking rules at all training stages.. could cook her meal even if its crap or cook for you or for personel reducing their cost and hers (gaining obedience) or service (gaining job skill on last phase )and would give her tool to help her escape
could get opposite effect if trait ex: SM on all kind of restrictive rules or punishments.. might adapt the training for her to pleasure/rewards ( lol )
could possible make slave go chubby/fat if fed too much without exercise ( would be a selling factor on selling her to market )
Could use Dirt to improve training.. or reduce her morale ( the more dirtier it becomes the higher to chance she could get sick )

                                                                                                                       ------ IN DEVELOPMENT ------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General stuff:
- Assistant we should simply call trainers. Should always be a free girl I think. ( too bad i liked the idea on personaly training a slave then turning her into a assistant/trainer with skills you would define)

(NEEDS APPROVAL) wherent refused in first concept but neither accepted so possible candidates:
- Race might give bonus or penalty to training but we will see that when in place
- Id like to add her a mood factor but could be done with joy ( she would accept training more easily and with better result if in good mood but would have to be char broken first )
  opposite could be true if angry at you
- traits revealing should be unlocked using relevant training like ( ex sex training would unlock nympho ) or using relevant talk related options ( like asking girl if she likes her condition )
  randomly revealing a trait with relevant text reply from her ( could use what she likes/hate too ) need to expand talk options
- stats revealing hmmm.. after training that stat a x number of times ? or using relevant talk related options ( like asking girl if she likes her condition ) randomly revealing a stat with
  relevant text reply from her ( could use what she likes/hate too ) need to expand talk options
- damage done ( bruises/scars could heal over time ) might need a MC healing trait to make it go faster or medic/healer/matron girl job or even make a special girl to assist you on
  that or even use item
- using proper items/consumable/training action can boost breaking/obed training/stat training
- while char is reduced to a certain amount.. her obedience can be trained.. and when her obedience reach a certain nbr she could unlock jobs training
- Other than that type of slave captured/stan slaves should use randomly generated stats/traits witch are hidden from start
- some girls could resist some punishment forms like physical ones while receptive to verbal ones or would need to find her hidden trait blocking punishment then use the right action
  to make punishment work
- maybe use a training for etch stat so it woulnd only be 1 training to chose from .. could also have different name if used for specific job

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*New parts of whats written her are in pending for approval so can be removed at any time
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 03:03:17 AM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interface (NEEDS APPROVAL)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Building containing dungeon:
      Office room screen ( basic furniture.. drawers, desk, chair, could upgrade/add new items )
         book on your desk that will display slave/building management:
             - tab with list of slaves( portrait/name, basic training stats like HP/VIT/CHAR/JOY, indication showing at witch stage they r on .. breaking/obedience/jobs, suicide/escaping counts )
             - tab with daily costs for each slaves containing expense on ( food,gear maintaining cost/new gear price, consumable/drugs used,... )
             - tab listing personnel you have ( trainers/ST guards..  portrait/name,stats like HP/VIT/JOY, indication showing the function they r doing relevant to their jobs,, guard survey,, trainers train...)
             - tab listing personnel costs ( their pay, food, gear maintaining cost/new gear price, consumable/drugs used,.. )
             - tab managing upgrade in general for each rooms
             - tab managing security upgrades for each rooms
         drawers containing archives of slaves sold/not under your care anymore ( someone might find some use to it )
         door leading to stairs

      Stairs leading to dungeon gate/ST guard post ( old castle tower type turning down like going to the depths of hell itself )
         way to go to dungeon gate
         way to go to ST guard post

      ST guard post ( possible interaction with guards )
         view of upgrades/security upgrades graphically installed in that room mixed with BG

      Dungeon gate ( ST guard(s) on each side if any recruited )
         will graphically display guards/door upgrades for either general of security
         way to corridor

      Corridor ( dark corridor illuminated with torches )
         wait to visit girls in their cells
         way to training room
         way to trainers room

      Cells room
         will show the girl behind barres with wall parts on each side and upgrades inside the cell ( girl could be sitting on floor/standing depending of her status/condition )
         will contain more than 1 cell so need way to go to next/previous 1
         will display portrait/name and detailed information on girl

      Training room
         will show the girl wearing/not wearing slave/related training/punishment gear an BG would display some of the training/security upgrades
         will show the interface to chose the training phase you want to start with training options related to it

      Trainers room ( possible interaction with trainers )
         view of upgrades/security upgrades graphically installed in that room mixed with BG

need more thinking.. do comment if i missed something that would make it impossible to work..

                                                                                                                       ------ IN DEVELOPMENT ------
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 03:03:57 AM
--RESERVED--
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 03:56:12 AM
Xela could you review the stat parts and comment witch has to be removed...

other than temp traits ( you wanted gone ) and permanent ones you didnt say a thing on the rest
well you let me chose to leave resist system or not.. lets not use it at this stage.. best to start with basics then could add later if needed

im waiting your approval on stats then add next part of concept i have
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 04:20:51 AM
About Sin/Virtue.. player will need to see the current lvl of it.. to know if he should punish or reward the slave so coulnd be a hidden flag.. maybe a trait that appears on every slave during their ST then hidden outside of it

( could use a range of -5 to +5 ) that way we could use adapted punishment
if too hard .. it will impact her joy..
if not hard enough .. it will increase her been spoiled
Spoil could be a trait with range of 0 to 5 ( will have impact on her obedience )

( thats Old Huntsman system )
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 04:33:00 AM
Proposal for the use of Refinement during ST..

other than CHARACTER that could be translated to temper/ego/pride.. we are missing a stat that would translate into ego ( her nature.. ) or pride ( he self esteem )
maybe REFINEMENT could be used as pride.. that way if she has starting refinement she would refuse sex/degrading acts in the last training stage where jobs related stats are trained
that way we could use CHARACTER for OBEDIENCE only.. and looks more ST like that way

of course once sex skills are trained she will have to follow the regular refinement training that nobleman s wants
or make slave whore work with lower class of ppl leaving the nobleman s to free girls that way no need to lock slave whore to rank 3
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 13, 2014, 04:44:34 AM
I'd prefer to avoid showing virtue. It makes prediction of girls reactions too simple. At very least it should be semi hidden, like description or some line in dialogue instead of plain numbers.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 04:48:51 AM
I'd prefer to avoid showing virtue. It makes prediction of girls reactions too simple. At very least it should be semi hidden, like description or some line in dialogue instead of plain numbers.

yes when i said trait to display it.. it woulnd mean numbers but texts
same for spoiling

also we could use Old huntsman way to deal with that problem.. only giving more details on if if revealed by magic
or going to see a npc to reveal it
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 04:56:27 AM
wait you mean spoil or sin/virtue she committed ?

sin/virtue should be clear number or text explaining it.. else you coulnd use appropriate punishment/reward.. that would cause slave to lose joy or gain spoil if failed to use the right punishment degree

as for spoil.. yes should be text implying how far it did go without exact number or penalty on obedience
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 05:03:02 AM
Also even with the exact numbers displaying sin/virtue.. you can chose the exact way to punish her but woulnd mean you had AP left to do it.. so even if you know how to do it perfectly it woulnd be possible every time

ex:

you have 4AP

you train her 1 time for breaking -1AP she refuse with 5 sin ( result of sin for that particular break training if failed )
need to punish her for 5 sin but that action will cost 2 AP ( stronger the punishment the more ap it cost ? need to define that.. )
she didnt lose joy or gained spoil/character since you punished her for hight amount but gained obedience ( maybe punishment could fail but need to define how if it does )

2AP left

you train her 1 time for breaking -1AP she refuse with 4 sin ( result of sin for that particular break training if failed )
need to punish her for 4 sin but that action will cost 2 AP ( stronger the punishment the more ap it cost ? need to define that.. )
as you dont have enough AP to punish her for the right amount you need to use lower punishment form
you punish her for 3 sin and that action cost 1 AP
failing to punish her for exact amount but less she will gain +1 spoil
but wounld gain character or lose joy sine you punished her and wherent too hard on her.. also punishing her would still give some obedience
....

if you didnt keep enough AP to punish her sin at all.. she would gain character and would lose some obedience
or if she pissed you refusing and used a punishment too hard for her sin she would lose joy and gain some obedience

of course those parameters would be different for obedience training or job/stat training

so rather than hide even partialy sin/virtue.. hide the training action sin potential
over time player would remember the sin potential tho ( maybe put a range on that as well like ex: 2-4 for a certain training action )
that way player may or may not fall short on AP to use right punishment and it wouldnt be so easy to apply right amount
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 05:36:23 AM
same for virtue.. need clear numbers to reward it.. giving right number will give joy.. giving more would give spoiling/joy giving less might impact joy to some little degree
same as sin.. you could make a range on virtue gain for her good deeds making us spend different amount of AP to reward her
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 05:58:39 AM
maybe talks to punish sin or reward virtue could be used without AP but limited to 1 per day use
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 13, 2014, 11:52:10 AM
*On stats:
I can't tell what reasonable other than the things I've pointed out already. It will become more apparent after we have some base.

**On training:
I thought the concept of "appropriate" punishment was crap in Valet Pletej. A girl that defies enslavement will never consider any punishment as being acceptable or appropriate not matter how we swing that mechanic.

I don' think there should be any actions that cost more than 1 AP during ST unless it's something trully unique and time-consuming.

There should be a flag set when she's saying no and a reset on punishment, effectiveness of any punishment should be stats/traits related). There is no reason that I see to try and quantify in what way she told you to go fuck yourself but if you want to have one, fine, I see no problem with that.
=====================================================

I've already said that my own system would have been more flags/counters based rather than based on stats and certainly not progressive like in SM/Valet (I've always believed that progressive approach was a crappy one).

You should start your concept not with the small stuff, what do you think on:

- What factors determine when a girl accepts slavery within a specific class (occupation)?
- Is the training progressive or flagsbased or some other option?
- How/When do we handle suicide/runaway options (based on the above)?
- What new stats/flags does the system require that will be relevant to PyTFall outside of ST module?
- What's the base setup of training a slave?

======================
I prolly forgot some other general things, but if you can have the above described, I think the whole thing will get a lot easier to discuss.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 13, 2014, 12:35:54 PM
Move insults from girlsmeets to ST as another way to train/punish them.
We can leave them in girlmeets as well (just because we can), but in ST they will be more useful.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 13, 2014, 12:43:38 PM
Move insults from girlsmeets to ST as another way to train/punish them.
We can leave them in girlmeets as well (just because we can), but in ST they will be more useful.

Something like:
mc "I've told you to wash these plates, not break them you cloth eared bint!!!" :D

I didn't even know we had insults other than an empty cat... need to revisit girlsmeets soon.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 13, 2014, 12:47:37 PM
More like Jack-o-nine tails approach. Pressure on the psyche.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 13, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
More like Jack-o-nine tails approach. Pressure on the psyche.

Not mutually exclusive...

My girlsmeets don't have the insult option, maybe I need to pull or something. And gifts are broken because I rewrote the inventory class. I'll fix it after you guys are finished with girlsmeets, it's just one or two lines of code.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 02:10:35 PM
*On stats:
I can't tell what reasonable other than the things I've pointed out already. It will become more apparent after we have some base.

Ok no point elaborating that now but would need to know your opinion on using refinement as stat that defines.. will she accept sexual/shamefull training..
woulnd be right to use character for anything other than obedience

as for a system that would count her breaking/obedience/jobs related training sessions using flag i dont seem to see a concept on that atm.. thats why i was thinking
on visually seeing the girl stats dropping/increasing showing her curent character that would indicate her base resistance to breaking/obedience training and refinement
for whore/strip training

**On training:
I thought the concept of "appropriate" punishment was crap in Valet Pletej. A girl that defies enslavement will never consider any punishment as being acceptable or appropriate not matter how we swing that mechanic.

There should be a flag set when she's saying no and a reset on punishment, effectiveness of any punishment should be stats/traits related). There is no reason that I see to try and quantify in what way she told you to go fuck yourself but if you want to have one, fine, I see no problem with that.

ok if she fails the obedience+other things check to do the training you can punish her but without severity degree different punishent options are meaningless as we could use 1 kind of punishment and that would be enough.. ( boring )

but if we base punishment on MC stats/traits that could give a new option like.. if MC has xx AGY he could punish with a whip or xx STRorCON he could beat her or xx CHA he could moraly wound her and so on..

would need to think what trait could be useful for that... maybe ex: if xx AGY the could unlock whip punishment trait and ( punishment effect would increase while bad status like scars on slave would be reduced as rank of trait increase ) or use CON/CHA stats number to define effect

of course each punishment would involve different bad status on the slave like whip/beating can damage her health and could kill her also bruises/scars would reduce maked value of slave.. psychologically wounding her making her lose hope to break her could depress her in suicide

I don' think there should be any actions that cost more than 1 AP during ST unless it's something trully unique and time-consuming.

well that was the only way at that moment i could see to make player unable to punish slave and get penalty ( making her gain char and losing obed on that example )
but could limit punishment option on acctual MC stats now that i think of it CON could limit physical punishment to x number ( after all MC could get tired hitting the girl could also be a factor to increase effect and would encourage player to train his CON too do more ) his CHA to limit the use of talk ( moral ) punishment ( higher his con the stronger the effect and number of uses )

- What factors determine when a girl accepts slavery within a specific class (occupation)?
- Is the training progressive or flagsbased or some other option?
- How/When do we handle suicide/runaway options (based on the above)?
- What new stats/flags does the system require that will be relevant to PyTFall outside of ST module?
- What's the base setup of training a slave?

-general acceptance could be when her mental defense are broken 0 character
 then training her obedience to get a job acceptance success bonus
 then job class related:
 whore/strip girl with high refinement would refuse the training but the 2 other previous training would make her accept more easely ( could also get an option to reduce refinment )
 service/guard.. i dont see specific blocking factor other than char/obed
 her trait could give accept/decline aswell ( nympho would agree faster even with lower obed training than others ) protective could train guard job more easily.. and so on
but if you mean girlsmeetintracation.. well thats kind of limited with current system.. if you had blackmail i proposed to force her into it atm i dont see how

-hmm would say stats progressive atm .. dont see a clear picture on how to use flag based unless you give me a example

-from start she would want to run but woulnd have gived up on living just yet..
 would need special slave outfit/gear to prevent her from runing to some extend then rest would be with ST guard and building containing holding cell security option
 could daily trigger a even checking her current obed+obedience related factor and if failed to meet a minimum for the trigger. then start the escape event
 she could have a chance to remove parts of her restraining gear.. then would have to evade/fight ST guards then pass/counter building security
 could use joy to determine her willingness to live since mood isnt an option.. abusive mental action on training would reduce her joy making her more willing to suicide
 would need the praising/rewarding option when she doesnt refist a training giving her some joy.. or general talk encouragement else her joy could drain too fast
 of course could limit encouragement on daily basis or 1 time per day or MC cha stat base limited

-outside of ST.. since obed would be a new stat for ST why not use it in main module aswell .. could gives better chance on willingness to do a job
 slave jobs related traits gained during ST training like "whore for the common ppl" ( if she had that she woulnd check her class rank vs customer rank like free girl does making her
 raise rank without that penaly ) maybe you could add similar trait/feat to free girls when they lvl their rank.. as slave maybe could use things more unique to them like
 upkeep reduction costs trait more energy endurance trait more joy resistance trait ( after all she endure hell with her energy/morale/living condition so could be tougher than free girl because of that )

-base setup.. not sure what you mean.. well to start slave training you would need a dungeon in either special building or MC house.. why dungeon.. for base security reason.. and
 for MC walk laziness unless you want to spend AP moving from a building to another.. woulnd need to have slave movement restraining gear basic cell to lock her up and room with
 minimum training tools and minimum or none ST guards/trainers of course with that setup escape could be easy.. so you would have to upgrade security everywhere.. train ST
 guards to take her from her cell to training room ( you or trainer do that if no ST guards ) improving her cell security training room security and so on.. maybe have some self training
 in ST MC could learn from pytfall general trainers or buying ST books in shops ( could possibly show that MC is able to train slave if he has a starting slave trainer trait learning it from
 trainers or books )
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 13, 2014, 03:37:36 PM
Ok no point elaborating that now but would need to know your opinion on using refinement as stat that defines.. will she accept sexual/shamefull training..
woulnd be right to use character for anything other than obedience

as for a system that would count her breaking/obedience/jobs related training sessions using flag i dont seem to see a concept on that atm.. thats why i was thinking
on visually seeing the girl stats dropping/increasing showing her curent character that would indicate her base resistance to breaking/obedience training and refinement
for whore/strip training

I don't even understand why refinement should have effect on resistance. To me refinement defines her behavior during an act, not the acceptance of it. To me it's a check when selling a girl and something that can be raised during trainings, nothing more.

Well, I see a very good and potentially excellent system but I never concepted or even tried to prototype it. It could simply be flawed. It doesn't mean you need to come up with one that is based on flags if you're writing a concept.

ok if she fails the obedience+other things check to do the training you can punish her but without severity degree different punishent options are meaningless as we could use 1 kind of punishment and that would be enough.. ( boring )

but if we base punishment on MC stats/traits that could give a new option like.. if MC has xx AGY he could punish with a whip or xx STRorCON he could beat her or xx CHA he could moraly wound her and so on..

would need to think what trait could be useful for that... maybe ex: if xx AGY the could unlock whip punishment trait and ( punishment effect would increase while bad status like scars on slave would be reduced as rank of trait increase ) or use CON/CHA stats number to define effect

of course each punishment would involve different bad status on the slave like whip/beating can damage her health and could kill her also bruises/scars would reduce maked value of slave.. psychologically wounding her making her lose hope to break her could depress her in suicide

Use Valet's way if you believe that's boring. I think that the her next response should be considerably influenced by the degree of punishment inflicted which could be tracked by a system of flags and counters along with the usual arguments. Quantifying a "proper" degree of punishment as it should be previewed by a girl who's defiant of being enslaved is in my opinion silly and we can do better.

Shouldn't matter,  MC should be assumed as of being able to use a whip. If she fights back, we can auto-calc/use BE. We could write a function that would determine damage done with the training (seems like an overkill).

well that was the only way at that moment i could see to make player unable to punish slave and get penalty ( making her gain char and losing obed on that example )
but could limit punishment option on acctual MC stats now that i think of it CON could limit physical punishment to x number ( after all MC could get tired hitting the girl could also be a factor to increase effect and would encourage player to train his CON too do more ) his CHA to limit the use of talk ( moral ) punishment ( higher his con the stronger the effect and number of uses )

Ok, as I've said, my opinions are just that, opinions.

-general acceptance could be when her mental defense are broken 0 character
 then training her obedience to get a job acceptance success bonus
 then job class related:
 whore/strip girl with high refinement would refuse the training but the 2 other previous training would make her accept more easely ( could also get an option to reduce refinment )
 service/guard.. i dont see specific blocking factor other than char/obed
 her trait could give accept/decline aswell ( nympho would agree faster even with lower obed training than others ) protective could train guard job more easily.. and so on
but if you mean girlsmeetintracation.. well thats kind of limited with current system.. if you had blackmail i proposed to force her into it atm i dont see how

-hmm would say stats progressive atm .. dont see a clear picture on how to use flag based unless you give me a example

-from start she would want to run but woulnd have gived up on living just yet..
 would need special slave outfit/gear to prevent her from runing to some extend then rest would be with ST guard and building containing holding cell security option
 could daily trigger a even checking her current obed+obedience related factor and if failed to meet a minimum for the trigger. then start the escape event
 she could have a chance to remove parts of her restraining gear.. then would have to evade/fight ST guards then pass/counter building security
 could use joy to determine her willingness to live since mood isnt an option.. abusive mental action on training would reduce her joy making her more willing to suicide
 would need the praising/rewarding option when she doesnt refist a training giving her some joy.. or general talk encouragement else her joy could drain too fast
 of course could limit encouragement on daily basis or 1 time per day or MC cha stat base limited

-outside of ST.. since obed would be a new stat for ST why not use it in main module aswell .. could gives better chance on willingness to do a job
 slave jobs related traits gained during ST training like "whore for the common ppl" ( if she had that she woulnd check her class rank vs customer rank like free girl does making her
 raise rank without that penaly ) maybe you could add similar trait/feat to free girls when they lvl their rank.. as slave maybe could use things more unique to them like
 upkeep reduction costs trait more energy endurance trait more joy resistance trait ( after all she endure hell with her energy/morale/living condition so could be tougher than free girl because of that )

-base setup.. not sure what you mean.. well to start slave training you would need a dungeon in either special building or MC house.. why dungeon.. for base security reason.. and
 for MC walk laziness unless you want to spend AP moving from a building to another.. woulnd need to have slave movement restraining gear basic cell to lock her up and room with
 minimum training tools and minimum or none ST guards/trainers of course with that setup escape could be easy.. so you would have to upgrade security everywhere.. train ST
 guards to take her from her cell to training room ( you or trainer do that if no ST guards ) improving her cell security training room security and so on.. maybe have some self training
 in ST MC could learn from pytfall general trainers or buying ST books in shops ( could possibly show that MC is able to train slave if he has a starting slave trainer trait learning it from
 trainers or books )

**Completely different to how I'd done it.

-hmm would say stats progressive atm .. dont see a clear picture on how to use flag based unless you give me a example

I could write a simple explanation of an "example" tomorrow if you like, buy your way could/did work in other games so you can just go with stats.
*Do note that slaves are not allowed to be trained as Guards as per game's concept.

-from start she would want to run but woulnd have gived up on living just yet..
 would need special slave outfit/gear to prevent her from runing to some extend then rest would be with ST guard and building containing holding cell security option
 could daily trigger a even checking her current obed+obedience related factor and if failed to meet a minimum for the trigger. then start the escape event
 she could have a chance to remove parts of her restraining gear.. then would have to evade/fight ST guards then pass/counter building security
 could use joy to determine her willingness to live since mood isnt an option.. abusive mental action on training would reduce her joy making her more willing to suicide
 would need the praising/rewarding option when she doesnt refist a training giving her some joy.. or general talk encouragement else her joy could drain too fast
 of course could limit encouragement on daily basis or 1 time per day or MC cha stat base limited

Ok, bit more vague than I've asked for but it's more or less clear.

-outside of ST.. since obed would be a new stat for ST why not use it in main module aswell .. could gives better chance on willingness to do a job
 slave jobs related traits gained during ST training like "whore for the common ppl" ( if she had that she woulnd check her class rank vs customer rank like free girl does making her
 raise rank without that penaly ) maybe you could add similar trait/feat to free girls when they lvl their rank.. as slave maybe could use things more unique to them like
 upkeep reduction costs trait more energy endurance trait more joy resistance trait ( after all she endure hell with her energy/morale/living condition so could be tougher than free girl because of that )

Ranks are gone as checks during jobs, slaves no longer can be ranked past level 3. Was a very decent addon to the concept imo. We could go with something like this (I really wanted to avoid this). So it's only obedience then?

-base setup.. not sure what you mean.. well to start slave training you would need a dungeon in either special building or MC house.. why dungeon.. for base security reason.. and
 for MC walk laziness unless you want to spend AP moving from a building to another.. woulnd need to have slave movement restraining gear basic cell to lock her up and room with
 minimum training tools and minimum or none ST guards/trainers of course with that setup escape could be easy.. so you would have to upgrade security everywhere.. train ST
 guards to take her from her cell to training room ( you or trainer do that if no ST guards ) improving her cell security training room security and so on.. maybe have some self training
 in ST MC could learn from pytfall general trainers or buying ST books in shops ( could possibly show that MC is able to train slave if he has a starting slave trainer trait learning it from
 trainers or books )

Ok, clear enough, what about interface?
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 13, 2014, 04:33:46 PM
ok those where basic ideas that crossed my mind.. didnt take time too think on them/elaborate in more depths so could be improved where you think its lacking

to me refinement sounds like morality thats why.. and we do miss at least 1 stat for whore/strip resistance training.. so was asking to use refinment or add a new stat ( that you hate to add ) like pride or ego or self esteem.. character could be used but how to define whore/strip training resistance jobs after char is reduced to minimum with breaking/obed training

well could only use the char/obed value but for whore/strip a girl would refuse it more than service training generally speaking.. thats why i wanted something else than character

and yes i would like to see a example on your flag/counter based concept

obedience only for now until we develop the concept more and finds we need other things

let me think of interface for a bit
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 14, 2014, 03:16:10 AM
Ok did not ask before but how far are you willing to go on the ideas...
ex: breaking her leg to reduce her escaping chance..
or is it pushing it too far.. ?

need a limit if any ( my mind burst with ideas but need limiter if there is 1 )
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 14, 2014, 03:24:17 AM
Also you said you hated SM/Otherworld.. but do you hate the softer training options ? make her be your slave over time but with nicer options... some ppl would want that in the ST as talks/action choices/rules..

pretty sure CW would like that rather than Old Huntsman way Dark loves so why not have both ?
( it shouldnt complicate the coding.. just add more lines to get more choices )
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 14, 2014, 04:42:09 AM
Use Valet's way if you believe that's boring. I think that the her next response should be considerably influenced by the degree of punishment inflicted which could be tracked by a system of flags and counters along with the usual arguments. Quantifying a "proper" degree of punishment as it should be previewed by a girl who's defiant of being enslaved is in my opinion silly and we can do better.

rather unclear on how to do it your way with *spoiling system but ill give it a try:

you ask her to.. ( interaction type )... ( add +1 to that interaction type and block that interaction type if =5) interaction count=1
( checks punishment count and if 1 obed=10,2 obed=20,3 obed +30,4 obed +40,... added to her combined obed factors ) to compare with her combined resistance factors..
she refuse .. ( punishment count failed to pass her resistance so she refuse ) punish count=0 obed bonus=0
you punish her for that ( interaction type ).. ( add +1 to punishment counter of that kind of interaction type and block that interaction type if =5 ) punish count=1

you ask her to.. ( interaction type .. same as previous )... ( add +1 to that interaction type and block that interaction type if =5 ) interaction count=2
( checks punishment count and if 1 obed=10,2 obed=20,3 obed +30,4 obed +40,... added to her combined obed factors ) to compare with her combined resistance factors..
she refuse .. ( punishment count failed to pass her resistance so she refuse ) punish count=1 obed bonus=10
you punish her for that ( interaction type ).. ( add +1 to punishment counter of that kind of interaction type and block that interaction type if =5 ) punish count=2

you ask her to.. ( interaction type .. same as previous )... ( add +1 to that interaction type and block that interaction type if =5 ) interaction count=3
( checks punishment count and if 1 obed=10,2 obed=20,3 obed +30,4 obed +40,... added to her combined obed factors ) to compare with her combined resistance factors..
she accept .. ( punishment count succeeded to pass her resistance so she accept ) punish count=2 obed bonus=20
( maybe should reset interaction count and punishment count if she accepts )

not sure its the way to go..

*to define if she get spoiled ( spoil will affect obedience in a bad way making her less obedient if you where to soft punishing her misdeeds or where too nice on her ( more rewarded than she should ) this could make refuse job training in later stages or training in earlier ones if you didnt manage it well and with reduced obedience factor it would increase her willingness to escape( i find it important to game play.. if you fail to control her she could get wild lol )
someone commented.. that its boring to have a slave trained with obedience then she would always obey you..
also need to find a way on that system to make punishment fail making her gain charisma or lose obedience..

i do agree that slave shoulnd find any degree of punishment acceptable.. but once her will/character is reduced to 0 or near it and learn obedience.. she should start accepting it..
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 14, 2014, 06:56:36 PM
ok those where basic ideas that crossed my mind.. didnt take time too think on them/elaborate in more depths so could be improved where you think its lacking

to me refinement sounds like morality thats why.. and we do miss at least 1 stat for whore/strip resistance training.. so was asking to use refinment or add a new stat ( that you hate to add ) like pride or ego or self esteem.. character could be used but how to define whore/strip training resistance jobs after char is reduced to minimum with breaking/obed training

well could only use the char/obed value but for whore/strip a girl would refuse it more than service training generally speaking.. thats why i wanted something else than character

and yes i would like to see a example on your flag/counter based concept

obedience only for now until we develop the concept more and finds we need other things

let me think of interface for a bit

Yeah, it good that you didn't think about it more depth, it's exactly what I've asked for. The purpose was to get a grasp of how you see the concept.

The trouble with the morality is that we assume what's considered moral in PyTFall. In a city where Prostitutes/Strippers are not looked down upon, masters pay rather large upkeep and real courtesans earn insane amount of cash, girls shouldn't be resistant to sex based on moral high-grounds.

I didn't have time to write out the base concept tonight, I'll try it tomorrow, if not than during the weekend.

Ok did not ask before but how far are you willing to go on the ideas...
ex: breaking her leg to reduce her escaping chance..
or is it pushing it too far.. ?

need a limit if any ( my mind burst with ideas but need limiter if there is 1 )

I always have one answer to this, ideas at the start should be as shallow as possible but code should anticipate any degree of expansion. It's not fruitful to get hang up on some specific in depth events while working on base system. After base is set, sky is the limit.

Also you said you hated SM/Otherworld.. but do you hate the softer training options ? make her be your slave over time but with nicer options... some ppl would want that in the ST as talks/action choices/rules..

pretty sure CW would like that rather than Old Huntsman way Dark loves so why not have both ?
( it shouldnt complicate the coding.. just add more lines to get more choices )

"Hate" is too strong, I live SlaveMaker for the amount of events, depth of exploration of the world and insane amount of possibilities. I dislike it for linear progressive training and too few modules.

Valet has about the same issue, largely compensated by the amount of options during the training.

If I said that I dislike OW, I was other drunk or you've misunderstood. OW is by a large margin my favorite concept out of the three and while still to a degree incomplete, I always believed it to be the most promising one.

It's main problem is that the developer got caught up in a loop of trying to improve the code/interface spending days on recoding stuff making it either slightly better or worse at the cost of what seemed like hundreds hours of dev time instead of adding new modules, events or content.

...

Possibility... I don't really believe slaves should expect much in terms of rewards, I felt it was another stupid concept from Valet, it may have been suited for child slaves to a degree but not to grown up once.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: lamoli on August 15, 2014, 07:00:49 AM
Ok if not using rewards to keep joy up we need something else.. also need your detailed comment on (need approval) stuff for first and second post of this topic
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 15, 2014, 11:29:57 AM
Well, there should be a "good" approach for training, but it should not be mandatory.
I'd say you generally need to be careful in order to not break them completely and make unsellable/close to useless (though in our game nothing is irreversible, but those items are expensive and rare) and to avoid suicide (however, unlike wm, where only pessimists could do it, in Pytfall it should be more common with joy=0).

Ways to improve joy for slaves... Now that's a tricky question if you train them in a "bad" way. I guess a lack of punishment is a small reward already? I need to think about it.

pretty sure CW would like that rather than Old Huntsman way Dark loves so why not have both ?
There are unique (and cruel as hell) circumstances in Jack-o-nine tails. Pytfall world is much less cruel, yet not as safe and peaceful as that country from SM (where they almost persuade slaves to be good slaves).
ST system should reflect the world, I believe. And it does in both games. In Jack monsters tear girls apart every day, in SM they rape them sometimes, usually gently, and the birth process is 100% safe for everyone  :D
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 15, 2014, 02:22:33 PM
I personally propose to be a little more pragmatic and keep the main actions as those girls commonly have images for. Creating options that need to rely solely on good texts may be kinda hard...
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 15, 2014, 02:26:51 PM
Ok if not using rewards to keep joy up we need something else..

Joy during training/breaking is another one of those juvenile concepts that came from game devs not knowing how else to handle it. It's a slave training, it is not supposed to be joyful or induce happiness under all normal circumstances (exceptions could be a use of drugs, some unique combo of traits or if we ever start tracking place of origin (previous circumstances), joy could be high if slavery is actually an improvement).

So, especially during the breaking faze, there shouldn't be a reliable way to keep the joy up except for some drugging system (we don't have one yet btw).



also need your detailed comment on (need approval) stuff for first and second post of this topic

It's good and saves me from typing out my concept in detail :)

Traits for MC... Would have to be coded separately I think. Why can't we simply use combination of stats/levels. + In this case we can add training capability stat (will be a lot easier to code). Obviously unless we decide to implement MC traits system like one in Alkion... (another complication).

*Please note, I am not really opposed to having training related stats as long as they're isolated to the system (I call them flags, basically). New stats are expected to rise/fall during events, interactions, job and that's what is making them so difficult to balance out and keep track of. If a stat is limited to a system, it's not a big deal. I guess another thing is OW, Daisy spent a long time implementing per job stat/skill, took a long time and hardly felt like hardly an improvement to the game in the end.



Breaking/Obedience.

It's good and prolly could turn out interesting. It's basic stuff so I don't really have anything to add/take away until there is more.

**My concept was to handle this bit differently (parts of it can still work with your system*):
- Congregate Breaking/Obedience into one.
- No obedience stat
- No reliable way to significantly lower true character (Unmodded by items)
- Traits/stats are slowly revealed on interaction/forced actions/time
- Purpose Multiplier (Tell a slave who/in what capacity she's being trained for. A girl trained to be a household keeper for wealthy nobleman should have a much lower multiplier than an all purpose slave to some peasant who got hand on some money for a purchase)
- "Breaking point" (Agreement/acceptance of situation) is calculated (based on stats + race + occupation + traits + maybe origin story (but latter is too similar to occupation to bother with in first version)) through one formula for any job and mitigated by pars supplied to that formula such as:

* Stats of MC
* Stats of all trainers and guards present
* Purpose Multiplier
* "Breaking flags" such as:
= Amount of days spent in imprisonment
= Amount of days in solitary
= Amount of days without food/water
= Amount of times beaten to several degrees
= Other
 -(Flag based instead of stat driven)-

Before agreement/acceptance, any task is done either under great duress or refused. Past that, all tasks/training relevant to the purpose are performed without refusal unless she's exhausted/low on health.



Training faze:

- Joy based responses (well managed personalized training = far better results)
- Stats/Traits are reveled fully the moment she agrees to be trained
- Huge penalties if asked to do training not relevant to occupation or told that she's gonna be sold to a completely different buyer (could fall back to breaking stage*)
- Sex with MC based on stats/requirement for sexual training. (unprofessional behavior from MCs part)



Selling faze:

- Unless was required, customer should be put off by the fact that trainer slept with the slave (unrequested familiarity with trainer without good purpose)
- I've already wrote about options of finding clients



Other thoughts:

- Some traits combination should make slave unbreakable (and time on them simply wasted):

My favorite quote from a Russian Adaptation of Greek play where a bitchy, shrewish female character frames MC for crime he didn't commit and he's convicted to be thrown off a cliff. His rich noble friend offers to buy him into slavery promising that it's just a way to circumvent the law (master choose punishment for their slaves so sentence by the court becomes irrelevant) and that he's never have to serve a day of his life to which he replies:

"So, where is the cliff for the free men?"

- There should be a registration for slaves granting them most basic rights and making sure that they understand that taking up arms/being trained in combat even if ordered by their master will result in their death (masters as well if actual order was given).
- No unregistered slave may be sold or be in service.
- Slaves should be a bit interactive:
* Ask for an audience with MC if they had enough of the dungeons
* Ask if they could do extra stuff if training goes well
* Ask to be sold to their master quicker if they like the prospect
* Ask to bed MC/Trainers if they so desire
* Plot/Plan escapes (also flag based)

- At some point I'd like an event where the registration authority would allow extra level of training in which a slave is given some cash and set free in the city for three or so day to see if she's trained well enough to come back, given the trainer an extra certificate. Result should be for a large part chance based, as most slaves harbor some hope of freedom (otherwise there wouldn't be any uprisings).

- Reusing labels (content), same texts/stat rewards/traits checks for sex acts (for example) during slave training, interactions and girlsmeets (main body I mean, setting is different in all cases obviously). Less work and should work fine.

============
Prolly more, but that's all I can recall atm. If you want to use parts of this, feel free to add it to the concept.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 15, 2014, 02:48:45 PM
So, especially during the breaking faze, there shouldn't be a reliable way to keep the joy up except for some drugging system (we don't have one yet btw).
There should be several ways to avoid suicide then when needed. Shackles, guards, drugs.

Traits for MC... Would have to be coded separately I think. Why can't we simply use combination of stats/levels.
Traits are fun. It's fun to choose them in SM when you start a new game, it's fun to get them too.
Though I'm not sure why are we talking about them in context of ST  :D There could be dozens of fun traits for MC, but I think it's another, separate system.

- Traits/stats are slowly revealed on interaction/forced actions/time
I like the idea of hidden traits. Not all, of course, things like Strange Eyes are obvious.
However, it will be a pain to write unique revealing checks for all of them. If there would be a way to reveal them automatically somehow...
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 15, 2014, 02:56:17 PM
Yeap.

- Obviously but suicides should be very uncommon.

- I always hated MC buildup process for some reason and always ended up choosing best mathematically sound option based on guides/faqs in most games... personal thing I guess. Also making those things trully relevant is also pretty hard.

- Obvious again. We should reveal those randomly unless enforced by an event, easier that way.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 15, 2014, 03:00:55 PM

Did you guys decided if MC can train slaves indirectly by sending them to trainers, using assistants/other girls and jobs? Just by "managing" without directly interacting with them? (like you can in otherworld but hardly in SM)
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 15, 2014, 03:06:06 PM
Both, I guess.
Like, you can give (relatively simple) tasks to assistants, and they perform them until you will say otherwise. Meanwhile you could work with another slave using AP if you want to.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 15, 2014, 03:28:51 PM
Both, I guess.
Like, you can give (relatively simple) tasks to assistants, and they perform them until you will say otherwise. Meanwhile you could work with another slave using AP if you want to.
Ok, thank you, I'm trying to get the hang on this concept talk and this seems a bit important to me, because by simple logic, the less MC is truly required to interact personally with the girl to produce a trained slave out of his business, the less important he himself should be in the basic system of training a slave (in terms of options, not effectiveness).
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 15, 2014, 03:33:05 PM
Yeah, that's why I want base methods for everything... so same logic can be used for trainers as for MC.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 15, 2014, 04:12:41 PM
I'd say, generally MC himself should be able to produce somewhat better slaves than assistants with the same level. However, it also means that all AP will be wasted on one single slave, so no interactions, arena, explorations, etc.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on August 15, 2014, 04:13:41 PM
I'd say, generally MC hiself should be able to produce somewhat better slaves than assistants with the same level. However, it also means that all AP will be wasted, so no interactions, arena, explorations, etc.

I can write a method that would auto-care for that as well based on label callbacks.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on September 18, 2014, 04:55:16 PM
Hope no one minds, but I'm gonna steal this thread as we already have 2 for the ST module, adding a third would be dumb.

Right-o, what currently isn't in:

What is in:

Mechanics:
General:
Each course can restrict what girls can do them through jobs and status ("Prostitute" and "Slave" for instance).
Each lesson can restrict girls by a set of requirements for the girl and trainer. This way you can have more effective lessons as a stat increases for instance.
The lessons have primary and secondary changes just like the normal schooling that have that same chances to apply as the schooling.
The lessons can also have girl ap, trainer ap (currently thought to be 1 ap per lesson, or 1 per girl. Could be increased for more 'strenuous' lessons though) and gold costs assigned to them, as well as a duration.

Lesson Success:
Lessons can have varying levels of success based on set requirements.
The currently accepted success levels are:

The success of the lesson is checked before any learning is actually done. Based on the success level different things happen:

For true, the girl gains an "obey" flag (up to 10). This adds the "Obedient" trait which acts as a visible flag that the girl has obedience points. Currently used to unlock Reward lessons which will be used to improve disposition, joy, etc. The chance of this can be increased by upgrading the dungeon.

For false, the girl gains a "disobey" flag (up to 10). This adds the "Disobedient" trait which acts as a visible flag that the girl has disobedience points. Currently used to unlock Punishment lessons which will be used to lower character, disposition, etc. The chance of this can be decreased by upgrading the dungeon.

For "stop", the girl gains a "disobey" flag and the girl is unassigned as if the lesson duration ran out normally. The chance of this can be decreased by upgrading the dungeon and assigning guards.

Maths:
The chance of the obey/disobey/runaway statuses is calculated by:
Code: [Select]
chance = random * (2 - (security_level / 1000))
obey = reward_upgrades/total_reward_upgrades > chance
disobey = punishment_upgrades/total_punishment_upgrades < chance
runaway = security_upgrades/total_security_upgrades < chance

The exp modifier from the upgrades is the same as the original schools amount plus:
Code: [Select]
exp += (exp*0.25) * (equipment_upgrades/total_equipment_upgrades)
The trainer skill / knowledge is the same as the original schools. The new schools generates a random ones as usual, but the dungeon lessons can set stats to pull an average from to use as the skill / knowledge levels. The modifier from upgrades is the original amounts plus:
Code: [Select]
teachingchance += (teachingchance*0.25) * (trainer_upgrades/total_trainer_upgrades)
maxskill += (maxskill*025) * (trainer_upgrades/total_trainer_upgrades)

The actual chances for improving stats / max stats is the same as the old lessons. The only difference is a scale can be applied to make the lessons more or less effective based on the girls stats. So a lesson can be less useful as the stat is trains approaches its maximum or in reverse. They can also be restricted to only work (and provide 0 benefits afterwards) based on another requirement. Currently this is used to make the "Talk" lesson in obedience worthless after the "Break" lesson is done and the "Broken" trait is applied to the girl. It also prevents the earlier rewards.

The system is set up to try and be as extensible as possible from the get go, without changing too many internals. It also tries to allow for easy scaling from early to late game.

As the main systems are now in a working (aside from what's noted above), the main thing I need is feed back. Do these systems seem like a good idea? Any requirements or abilities you think it would need? Any obvious problems I haven't realised?

Also, how complex to you want running away to be? Currently its only a "you can't do this lesson yet" restriction till the girl likes you more. I know the jail was just added but is currently featureless, so it could work as a place were "lost" girls have a chance to resurface, but it would require making running away harder then it currently is.

Finally, who do you want to be able to train? I figured allowing free girls to be employed to train others would work. Assign them to a dungeon as a trainer and they can be picked in the training assignment screen. I could implement a new girl type as well, sort of a general trainer. Not as specialised as a free prostitute or service girl, but available from the very start.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on September 20, 2014, 04:17:11 PM
The system looks solid. Basically, you could take ideas that you like from first two posts in this thread to advance it.

That includes running away. Gear to prevent it, gear to reduce fighting capabilities for "fresh" slaves if they decide to attack guards, etc. In terms of conditions it could depend on stats like joy, disposition, character/obedience, health/fatigue (meaning physical condition).
As for searching them, maybe we can use look around option that every location has, also there could be a chance that you will find the slave in jail few days later. Finally, if you wasted too much time, for example we could add them to our current exploration system, so you could send a team to search for runaway slaves outside the city walls.

In addition to escaping they probably could attack trainers/guards. We have BE (battle engine), we could add restrictive gear, and with this option it would be dangerous to mess around with high level slaves if you don't have high level guards or very good items.


It's too early for balancing, but according to our current concept race means a lot here.
There is race.json in content\db folder. The idea is that there are hundreds of races, so we cannot cover them all, however they could be classified into base races. Thus, in character's data file you can specify actual race (forest elf, high elf, etc.) to show in gui and base rase (elf) to check it when needed.
The file is not loaded into the game yet though.

I also thought about new obedience stat. The higher character, the more difficult (though never impossible) to rise obedience. On the country, the more obedience, the more difficult (though never impossible) to rise character.
Thus, you can break them quickly by removing character stat out of the way, but they will be spineless (=cheap and not too useful) then.

As for trainers, we thought about a new occupation, though it's probably not necessarily. I imagine that strippers with high enough character could train strippers slaves, and so on. I'm not sure how to handle it, I'd wait for Cherry/Xela opinions.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on September 20, 2014, 04:26:28 PM
I think we could use trainer as occupation/suboccupation (part of ServiceGirl?) with some extra training bonuses. I didn't get a chance to test this thoroughly yet but there should be an option of "live training" (same formulas as next day training to make it manageable but with some text (each training = label as with girlsmeets/interactions)).

*we'll have to balance this/content this ourselves unless lamoli pops up.

Also, training should be "per AP" not just one thing per day. We'll straiten this thing out with time :)

I am going to push small fix for the beggar event and catch some zzzs, falling asleep behind the desk :(
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: livingforever on October 12, 2014, 01:37:13 PM
Hey everyone!
Since I had some free time on my hands without any motivation to do something productive I've been catching up on some concepts.

One thing that I stumbled upon is that suicide seems to be a decided mechanic here and I really object that idea.

First, it is incredibly morbid. I can accept masochism and many other things as fetish, but suicide is simply not a topic that you should present in a videogame, it should never be an option and no character should ever do it.
To put it bluntly, every life is worth living, don't show emotionally unstable people the opposite, that's unbelievably bad taste.
Second, killing characters permanently seems like a bad idea to me. Losing and recapturing a slave is an interesting mechanic, but simply removing the character from the game sucks.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2014, 01:46:30 PM
Hey everyone!
Since I had some free time on my hands without any motivation to do something productive I've been catching up on some concepts.

One thing that I stumbled upon is that suicide seems to be a decided mechanic here and I really object that idea.

First, it is incredibly morbid. I can accept masochism and many other things as fetish, but suicide is simply not a topic that you should present in a videogame, it should never be an option and no character should ever do it.
To put it bluntly, every life is worth living, don't show emotionally unstable people the opposite, that's unbelievably bad taste.
Second, killing characters permanently seems like a bad idea to me. Losing and recapturing a slave is an interesting mechanic, but simply removing the character from the game sucks.
Have fun!

*We'll have resurrection mechanics. It's been discussed a lot already.

I don't know about suicides. We had suicides in the game for a very long time (since before the original Alpha release) and I don't think anyone actually pushed a girl into one (conditioning is pertty harsh and improving or at least normalizing the situation is easy and cheap), not even people how claimed to play for 30+ hours and fished out bugs even Jaeke (our former and quite excellent betatester) couldn't catch.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 12, 2014, 02:54:28 PM
Ok, not entirely sure of the best to organise this so I'm just gonna go ahead ramble.

Training apply per AP
First of all training now applies its stat/trait/effect/whatever changes according to the "doNum" property. It defaults to 0. doNum works like so:
Code: [Select]
if amount == 0: amount = self.girl.AP
while amount > self.course.AP:
    # do stuff
    amount -= self.course.AP
Where amount is set to doNum. This allows for the course to either apply its changes a set number of times, or to keep doing so until the girl is out of AP.

One-off-event Training
Lessons can now be one-off-events. These are lessons that have a "labels" dict. The dict contains "state"->"label" pairs. The labels are normal renpy labels and the states are the flags returned from the check_success() function in TrainingJob that specify how the training went.

The default flags are:

The 4 flags with numbers aren't 'normal' success states, as they apply before success is checked. They can still however have labels assigned to them. The labels dict requires a "normal" label, all others are optional and will use the default labels if not specified.

"obey" doesn't have a default label, as the labels in renpy must be defined as:
Code: [Select]
label my_training_event(girl, trainer, job, obeys):
    # blah blah
Where "girl" is the girl being trained, "trainer" the trainer, "job" a OneOffTrainingJob instance and "obeys" a boolean that flags whether the girl got the "obey" state. This allows the normal training label to cover both normal and obedient states with optional extra content if the author doesn't want to write an entirely different / cloned label.

The labels are accessed through renpy.call() and so should end with a return statement.

The OneOffTrainingJob class is a special subclass of TrainingJob that is used for these training events as they occur outside of normal next_day logic and still need to be reported. They are used to calculate the check_success state and create the event for the next day screen as normal. To actually apply the training changes you need to put the following somewhere in the label:
Code: [Select]
$ job()
One-off-event training forces a doNum of 1, as it is used like an interaction and only takes up the AP of the girl and trainer when used.

Trainers
Currently all girls can work as trainers. They are assigned just like other jobs and become available to set to training girls in the training assignment screen. Girls can refused to be trained, but only as specified above under the "bad_trainer" state. Non-player trainers can be used for one-off-event training and so the labels should be written using the "trainer" argument instead of "hero".

Items
Some items and traits were added to test using equipment to affect the chance to obey/disobey/runaway.
The traits and items are:
The items add the traits, and the traits contain a new property called "trEffMax".  trEffMax is used to calculate the maximum that the trait can add to the chances to form a multiplier. Eg: Restrained has a trEffMax of 5. Each item adds 1. If the girl has 3 equipped the multiplier would be 1 - 0.6 = 0.4.

Girls List and Girl Profile
Some slight changes here. As well as "Train" being added as a valid action under TrainingDungeon, "Take Course" has as well. Instead of assigning the action "Take Course" sends you directly to the training assignment screen.

City Jail
I gave the jail a location on both variants of the map so it can be accessed. Fell free to change these whenever.

The jail now has a background and standard look_around action.

The jail has a "Browse Cells" action which triggers "browse_jail_cells" events. Currently no events in, but I figured this would be needed at some point.

The add/remove prisoner functions and list in the CityJail class are currently unused. I decided I wanted to keep the logic for escaped girls separate from the normal jail code so it could be easily managed under 1 class.

Slave Market
I decided to use the current slave market interface for the browsing and release of your escaped slaves for convenience. To this end I recoded the pyt_slave_shopping screen. It not accepts arguments of the following:
Code: [Select]
screen pyt_slave_shopping(store, tt_text, buy_button, buy_tt):
    # blah blah
As such the pytfall.world_actions.slave_market() function now requires you to pass the following arguments:
Code: [Select]
slave_market(store, tt_text, button="Go Shopping", null_button="No Slaves Available", buy_button="Purchase", buy_tt="You can buy this great girl for a measly sum of %s Gold!")

There was 1 or 2 slight changes to the SlaveMarket class to facilitate this change, but most importantly a new property was added called "girlfin". This returns the Finances class for the girl. This was added to the store instance passed to the screen can override this behaviour. In particular this was used so that retrieving escaped slaves from the jail costs their base_price * (0.75 - (0.125 - time)), where time is how long they left in the jail. This imitates the 'bail' of the girl being lower then their normal costs, and allows it to increases the long they are in jail.

Running Away
Most importantly, this release includes the RunawayManager class. The class that handles all the logic for escaped girls.

The RunawayManager instance can be found at pytfall.ra, and is included in normal pytfall.next_day behaviour.

Currently only slave girls can run away. I thought about making it so that free girls would simple leave your service immediately, but don't know if you want them gone for good, placed back into the girls meet code, whatever.

If a slave manages to successfully get a runaway state during training their training stops and are added to the RunawayManager.girls list. This sets their location to "Unknown", action to "Hiding" and prevents you from interacting with them in the girls list and girl profile screen apart from viewing their gallery. You can filter escaped girls in the girls list screen using the "Run Away" filter on the right.

If the RunawayManager contains girls it will push an event during the next_day screen in the training section telling you which of your girls have escaped. It also contains debug info on their status if developer mode is on.

There is debug code in the class which adds the first 2 slaves in the players girls list to the manager on day 1 to help testing.

The manager calculates the girls "status" which is currently an average of their vitality, intelligence and agility stats over their maxes. This figure is passed to the dice function to calculate the chances for the following next_day behaviour:

The look_cache events will use the label contained in the new Girl property "runaway_look_event". This is "escaped_girl_recapture" by default which is a generic recapture label which guarantees capture. These events must call "pytfall.ra.retrieve(girl)" to have the girl returned to the player if desired.

Currently the chances generated using the girls status gives a decent amount of chances to find the girls in look_around events and in the jail. The limits on the amounts though would decrease this is too many escape, a valid outcome of trying to find so many people at once. 20 days seems like a decent amount of time to try and recapture a girl, and the girls are only in jail for 5 days.

End~
Everything should be working. I might have introduced a bug where the events manager removes the wrong events in the kill_event function, but I'm gonna have to do more testing to find out.

How do we want to handle free girls in relation to escaping?

Do we want to change the numbers in the runaway manager?

Should I integrate the unused CityJail code into the slave market interface so characters can be added to the jail without needed to use the RunawayManager?

As the knowledge and skill scores for the trainer during training can be calculated independently for different lessons (dancing classes can use different stats to sex classes for instance) I felt that allowing all girls to teach others was a good idea. It removes the need for a specific skill, although one can be added to provide bonuses for if they do teach. Maybe add a new occupation?

I'll post more here later if I forget anything.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2014, 03:36:33 PM
...

We should all take a look at the ST when time permits (not soon for me I fear) but from the explanation it sounds exactly what we were talking about :)

I thought about making it so that free girls would simple leave your service immediately, but don't know if you want them gone for good, placed back into the girls meet code, whatever.

How do we want to handle free girls in relation to escaping?

*Free girls should not be trainable per concept (law of the land). We need to discuss enslavement mechanics, I wanted this to be something rare/difficult. Captured girls will be trainable (after buying a permit (I want this to be "capture in exploration" --> Jail --> "Slave registration" --> "Training")), untrained slaves you can buy from Stan ot acquire otherwise. Basically if a girl is not registered as you property is offlimits for training as a slave.

They will leave if not paid for a while and/or their employment is mismanaged. In such cases, they are sent to the girlsmeets pool and have a really low disposition so they cannot be easily hired again.

Do we want to change the numbers in the runaway manager?

Need to take a look at that first.

Should I integrate the unused CityJail code into the slave market interface so characters can be added to the jail without needed to use the RunawayManager?

Maybe, I wanted to use jail as a holding spot for girls captured during exploration, that has nothing to do with the ramanager.

As the knowledge and skill scores for the trainer during training can be calculated independently for different lessons (dancing classes can use different stats to sex classes for instance) I felt that allowing all girls to teach others was a good idea. It removes the need for a specific skill, although one can be added to provide bonuses for if they do teach. Maybe add a new occupation?

Occupation like "Trainer"? I think we wanted to have something like that. Maybe to modify effects even further, traits should also participate in teaching, maybe intelligence + character for extra mods. We can handle that when we (or Dark :D) balance out the system.

Edit: I still can't pull your update? Going to try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 12, 2014, 03:52:10 PM
Yeah that was my bad. The workbench was being dumb. Should be done now.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2014, 03:55:27 PM
Yeah that was my bad. The workbench was being dumb. Should be done now.

Great, I'll pull it tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: livingforever on October 12, 2014, 06:23:28 PM
Hi!
*We'll have resurrection mechanics. It's been discussed a lot already.

I don't know about suicides. We had suicides in the game for a very long time (since before the original Alpha release) and I don't think anyone actually pushed a girl into one (conditioning is pertty harsh and improving or at least normalizing the situation is easy and cheap), not even people how claimed to play for 30+ hours and fished out bugs even Jaeke (our former and quite excellent betatester) couldn't catch.
Those are honestly ridiculous excuses.
You're justifying the existence of a mechanic with the fact that it's almost never encountered and that it can be counteracted? Then why is it there in the first place?

Let's start with the resurrection: Essentially, any death mechanic aims to punish the player, but since you don't want perma death in the game (which is reasonable), you're making the player spend resources on resurrection - why don't you make him spend the resources on preventing the death instead?
It doesn't matter if the resource is time or money or something else, a reversable punishment like that is just annoying and has no gameplay value.

And if it is so rare that it never happens then why did you waste time implementing it?
Have fun!
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 12, 2014, 07:21:14 PM
*Free girls should not be trainable per concept (law of the land).
Well the training system also covers Schooling, which the free girls can do. Considering that all the lessons can specify what type of girl can do them (free/slave, occupation) its entirely possible that a free girl can encounter a runaway state.

Quote
Occupation like "Trainer"? I think we wanted to have something like that. Maybe to modify effects even further, traits should also participate in teaching, maybe intelligence + character for extra mods. We can handle that when we (or Dark :D) balance out the system.
Something like that, yeah.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 13, 2014, 12:10:52 AM
Hi!Those are honestly ridiculous excuses.
You're justifying the existence of a mechanic with the fact that it's almost never encountered and that it can be counteracted? Then why is it there in the first place?

And if it is so rare that it never happens then why did you waste time implementing it?

Wasn't aware there was a need to make any "excuses". It's there as a feature, it wasn't difficult to implement and I guess I cannot cannot really claim that noone has got it, just that it was never mentioned/reported.

Let's start with the resurrection: Essentially, any death mechanic aims to punish the player, but since you don't want perma death in the game (which is reasonable), you're making the player spend resources on resurrection - why don't you make him spend the resources on preventing the death instead?
It doesn't matter if the resource is time or money or something else, a reversable punishment like that is just annoying and has no gameplay value.

It is already possible to "spend resources to prevent death" as in buying equipment, making sure there is ample security, not take risks, etc. There is no reason why both can't be in the game.

Well the training system also covers Schooling, which the free girls can do. Considering that all the lessons can specify what type of girl can do them (free/slave, occupation) its entirely possible that a free girl can encounter a runaway state.

I see... well, free girl is assumed to have an options to quit. Running away sounds a bit harsh + we're supposed to make slaves reach "obedience" flag at some point when they stop trying to escape unless horrible mismanaged (whist a fresh slave might try to get away even while being treated well). That was the plan anyway, we change/improve stuff as we move forward :)

Edit:
Notes:

*Girls in PyTFall Educators shouldn't require trainers, you pay the school masters to train them.
*This girl has run away pop-up should be disabled when switching the next girl in profiles screen.
*There should be a way to have free girls looking for escapees. Maybe with penalties/bonuses depending on traits/disposition.
*Jail as it is on the dark map, I think those are locked gates leading to the Castle/Rich quarter.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 13, 2014, 02:10:40 AM
To put it bluntly, every life is worth living, don't show emotionally unstable people the opposite, that's unbelievably bad taste.
Second, killing characters permanently seems like a bad idea to me. Losing and recapturing a slave is an interesting mechanic, but simply removing the character from the game sucks.
It's not like this is our own idea. Suicide exists in WM, where pessimist girls with low joy can commit it.
Personally, I think we just need multiple options to prevent it, ie keep joy high, use special equipment, guards, upgrades, maybe exotic things like mind control.
It makes sense it terms of life simulation too. Suicide exists irl and it's not that rare. I bet most people would commit it after some time while being slaves with min joy (meaning deep depression without any hope left). I don't remember if we have an effect for too low joy, if not, then we should add it, I guess.


=====================================================================================
Now, my thoughts about slave training.
- Running away. It should be quite rare event during actual training. It's much easier to run away at night than during training in front of everyone. So pure running events should mostly be a part of next day calculations.

- Fighting. Rather then running, slaves could attack MC and/or guards. Especially during training, when they don't want to do something. In case of high level, dangerous slaves we could use BE, otherwise simulated fight should be enough. If slave is strong enough to beat guards, she will run away indeed.

- Misc items, as far as I know, cannot just add trait. Your vibrator items require either to rewrite items code a bit or use a different slot.

- I don't remember where I've seen it, but in some game there were two types of punishments/ways to break, "good" and "bad". Bad is, well, beating/hurting stuff, and good one is basically a pleasure torture, like forced vibrator for example.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 13, 2014, 05:41:47 AM
Now, my thoughts about slave training.
- Running away. It should be quite rare event during actual training. It's much easier to run away at night than during training in front of everyone. So pure running events should mostly be a part of next day calculations.

Since anyone can train anyone ==> Untrained Slave training an Untrained Salve == Super high chances of an escape for both?

I am still fuzzy on the whole training thing but it'll get better in time (just had 30 mins to test it).

- Fighting. Rather then running, slaves could attack MC and/or guards. Especially during training, when they don't want to do something. In case of high level, dangerous slaves we could use BE, otherwise simulated fight should be enough. If slave is strong enough to beat guards, she will run away indeed.

Be during personal training maybe... If she beats the guards, all untrained slaves should run away.

- Misc items, as far as I know, cannot just add trait. Your vibrator items require either to rewrite items code a bit or use a different slot.

I don't remember. System got a bit complicated due to amount of requests/wishes. Might not be a bad idea to rewrite the whole thing.

*Edit: Prolly true for the misc items due to their nature. Same trait could be applied on daily basis messing with my poor dicts.

- I don't remember where I've seen it, but in some game there were two types of punishments/ways to break, "good" and "bad". Bad is, well, beating/hurting stuff, and good one is basically a pleasure torture, like forced vibrator for example.

I dislike "pleasure torture" as a way of "breaking" someone. We need a better system without linear progression by unlocking the next logical step (petting-kissing-blowjob-sex for example). That way of training where a slave simply refuses the next logical step is bullsh!t created by people who didn't know/ or simply not willing to write better code. Thewlises system sounds like it will allow practically anything so it's a matter of stuffing it up with good content after it's ready (I didn't find training in labels when I tried it and there is other stuff that needs to be wrapped up).

===========
Some notes for the future:

- There should be a way to set a slave free or for a slave to "buy" their freedom if working off a small wage while doing a really good job.
- If they lack the funds themselves and you want to free them, you should pay for it (requirement by law) in form of setting up a small business or buying/giving them a peace of land. *Both should give (+50 disposition to every slave, -25 disposition to every free girl in employment, -10 out of employment)
- Possible other insensitive to work for you might be:
*Sending to work in nearby mines (which no slaves returned from in one piece)
*Promise of freedom after x years of good service (prolly not relevant to gameplay but should be there in conversations)
*There should be no visible identification to id a slave.

It's not like this is our own idea. Suicide exists in WM, where pessimist girls with low joy can commit it.
Personally, I think we just need multiple options to prevent it, ie keep joy high, use special equipment, guards, upgrades, maybe exotic things like mind control.
It makes sense it terms of life simulation too. Suicide exists irl and it's not that rare. I bet most people would commit it after some time while being slaves with min joy (meaning deep depression without any hope left). I don't remember if we have an effect for too low joy, if not, then we should add it, I guess.

We already have all (most) of those options.

First thing first, training system which is coming along nicely needs to be wrapped up and receive some content. We'll figure out the rest as we go, I often find it strange when players raise issues on subject matter in a game that deals with prostitution, slavery, dangerous exploration and etc. I often find that suicide fits in really well in games where it's "appropriate" (for lack of a better word) like in Elder Scrolls for example. Halo even has "suicide bombers"...

Edit:
(Just caught an escaped slave, freaking awesome!)
I found punishments/rewards in labels training but can't yet tell how to distinguish it from tasks for the next day.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 13, 2014, 07:55:24 AM
Since anyone can train anyone ==> Untrained Slave training an Untrained Salve == Super high chances of an escape for both?
Fair enough. We need checks then. In case of adequate trainer smart slave (intelligence check) wound wait for night.
I just find it strange when unhappy slaves try to run away in many games only when you do something with them, usually starting with attacking MC. Escape preparations and implementation at some dark night could work too, after all.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 13, 2014, 08:14:16 AM
I just find it strange when unhappy slaves try to run away in many games only when you do something with them, usually starting with attacking MC. Escape preparations and implementation at some dark night could work too, after all.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I hope that we'll settle this gradually by improving checks, logic and exceptions.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 13, 2014, 12:21:14 PM
1) I can add have an action for warriors to search for girls easily enough. I can use it as a modifier for the chances for look_around events. Maybe add an option to allow them to auto-buy jailed slaves?

2) I just placed the jail locations where ever was convenient. Do you have any suggestion of where I should move it?

3) Currently the runaway chance is just a dice role based on the dungeons security rating and upgrades with the results of failed and successful attempt. I could change it so at high security ratings a successful attempt also requires a successful combat result.

Probably would use BE for personal training and a simulation for others. Can we call up the BE during the next day logic? 'Cause if we can't we'd probably need to use simulations for personal training training that aren't one-off-events.

4) I'll probably move the vibrators to a different slot, rewriting the items is probably not a good idea mid-ST. Might make them take up the trouser slot and make them reverse-chastity panties.

5) Currently the training only really has "bad breaking". It would be entirely possible to have "good break" training as well. Maybe have good break take longer but have less disposition changes and other such things?

6) The Obedience training has a lesson called "Break" that assigns the "Broken" trait that's only available once the girl has a certain level of character.

As I'm using the character stat currently as a sort of reverse-obedience I can tie in chances to escape to that. Easy enough to include a check for Broken trait as well to stop all runaway events.

Currently the Obedience training has the success states of:
OBEY = disposition > 750
DISOBEY = disposition < 250
RUNAWAY = disobey_flag > 5 and not "Broken"

7) Haven't got many ideas for slaves freeing themselves. Probably best to put into a sub-module along with enslaving free girls for now.

8) Now that the RunawayManager is in I can add checks for other jobs as to whether a slave can escape. Might shift the code that checks for runaway success into the RunawayManager itself for easier use.

9) Currently slaves only respond to bad trainers in the "She's broken/a slave and I don't want to be near here" sense. I add a check for competence to add a modifier to runaway chance easily enough. Maybe adapt the teaching skill stat to a dice roll.

10) Currently as all next_day training use up the entirety of the girls AP they specify a duration directly under the lesson image. The one-off-event training, having technically a duration of 0) show how much AP it will cost the girl instead in orange text. I thought about giving the one-off-event lessons a different border colour to show them off easily but put it aside for later.

The available one-off-event lessons are all the reward and punishment options. Everything else are next_day training.

11) As we want trainers to be able to train multiple girls, each lesson has a "heroAP" property that holds how much AP it costs the trainer to teach the lesson. This cost is applied once regardless of how many times the girl is 'taught'. If a trainer is assigned more lesson then they can teach then any attempt to train a girl if they don't have the AP for it automatically fails. While this does mean that there is a disconnect between the AP costs for girls and trainers it seemed like a good balance.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 13, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
I fixed some of the bugs you mentioned.

I changed the vibrators to body slots and updated their descriptions to compensate. They'll need new images though.

I moved the jail in the dark map.

I've added a new style for one-off-event training. It should be easy to see the difference between them now, what do you think?
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 13, 2014, 03:25:43 PM
1) I can add have an action for warriors to search for girls easily enough. I can use it as a modifier for the chances for look_around events. Maybe add an option to allow them to auto-buy jailed slaves?

Sounds like a plan. Maybe also a simple way to alert the authorities (in jail) and just have a random chance of the girl being caught during next day calculations. We can complicate it a bit in later development by allowing to set a bail to influence the chances.

2) I just placed the jail locations where ever was convenient. Do you have any suggestion of where I should move it?

Please don't do that. We'll change it if we decide to go with dark map and change it then. We either do a poll with the next release between the two cities we have now or switch to the map Gismo is trying to create (if he succeeds, he never made a map like that before). He's even trying to make it with a grid :) We can have a couple of quest to build stuff if that'll be the case :)

*Wrote this too late it would seem :(

3) Currently the runaway chance is just a dice role based on the dungeons security rating and upgrades with the results of failed and successful attempt. I could change it so at high security ratings a successful attempt also requires a successful combat result.

Probably would use BE for personal training and a simulation for others. Can we call up the BE during the next day logic? 'Cause if we can't we'd probably need to use simulations for personal training training that aren't one-off-events.

Even if we manage it technically, it makes little sense to do so. BE feels like it should be avoided during ND.

5) Currently the training only really has "bad breaking". It would be entirely possible to have "good break" training as well. Maybe have good break take longer but have less disposition changes and other such things?

"Good Breaking" should be available through simple conversations in interactions I think. I hate the "obedience for a candy approach", slavery is supposed to be normal and accepted so a promise of freedom or a really small wage/percentage of profits to allow her to "buy herself" are far more realistic and honest approaches. Especially if we allow player to build good reputation as a slave owner in time.

6) The Obedience training has a lesson called "Break" that assigns the "Broken" trait that's only available once the girl has a certain level of character.

As I'm using the character stat currently as a sort of reverse-obedience I can tie in chances to escape to that. Easy enough to include a check for Broken trait as well to stop all runaway events.

Currently the Obedience training has the success states of:
OBEY = disposition > 750
DISOBEY = disposition < 250
RUNAWAY = disobey_flag > 5 and not "Broken"

Yeah, we'll balance this out if needed but this approach is really good.

7) Haven't got many ideas for slaves freeing themselves. Probably best to put into a sub-module along with enslaving free girls for now.

Yeah, might run in girls nd method or through a separate module.


9) Currently slaves only respond to bad trainers in the "She's broken/a slave and I don't want to be near here" sense. I add a check for competence to add a modifier to runaway chance easily enough. Maybe adapt the teaching skill stat to a dice roll.

10) Currently as all next_day training use up the entirety of the girls AP they specify a duration directly under the lesson image. The one-off-event training, having technically a duration of 0) show how much AP it will cost the girl instead in orange text. I thought about giving the one-off-event lessons a different border colour to show them off easily but put it aside for later.

The available one-off-event lessons are all the reward and punishment options. Everything else are next_day training.

**I am thinking we should try to give the whole slave training and maybe the gameplay itself different approach. In ancient times, values of skilled slaves was insane (skilled medical practitioner 50 - 70 times unskilled slaves, skilled artists/musicians x25 value the unskilled slaves, scribes x10 value of the unskilled slaves and etc.)

It might not be a bad idea to build the whole game around something like that (full training could take up to 1000 days and require a professional trainer (who can in turn train several slaves at the same time)).

Break first (Simpler/quicker process, good or bad) and teach later. Or break (somewhat higher value and sell at base price). Our exp system that doesn't allow stat to soar without control and that can be controlled through exp_adjust method could be of great help in balancing this as well.

In any case, this is a big decision so I'll leave this to a discussion for now.

11) As we want trainers to be able to train multiple girls, each lesson has a "heroAP" property that holds how much AP it costs the trainer to teach the lesson. This cost is applied once regardless of how many times the girl is 'taught'. If a trainer is assigned more lesson then they can teach then any attempt to train a girl if they don't have the AP for it automatically fails. While this does mean that there is a disconnect between the AP costs for girls and trainers it seemed like a good balance.

Noted. It should be possible to train several girls at the same time...

I've added a new style for one-off-event training. It should be easy to see the difference between them now, what do you think?

I'll try to take a look. If we go with the system above it will only make sense to personally train a slave on auto (during ND at fixed AP price (this should be withdrawn from MC on daily basis just like it is with current MC training by NPCs)) and if MC is really good at some stuff himself.

We'll still have "actions" that can be done with a slave, most players are expecting these I think, not the "You've trained her to walk outside" cr@p.

===============
***Just a thought, everyone in all (*most?) similar games assumes that all characters are somehow literate? That shouldn't really be the case... maybe literacy training should be a part of ST/School training...
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 13, 2014, 03:38:37 PM
I moved the jail in the dark map.

I've added a new style for one-off-event training. It should be easy to see the difference between them now, what do you think?

- That's a great location for a jail.

- Perfect!
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 14, 2014, 11:29:17 AM
I'm working on abstracting the code I used to calculate the runaway chance so it can easily be used in other jobs/locations through a simple function call, and I had an idea.

Currently training has obey/disobey flags and if we're extending running away to other jobs it would make sense to add obedience to them as well.

Obey/disobey work on a simple 0-10 scale, with the reward/punishment training unlocking "higher" lessons the more points they have.

If we extend the system I think adding another layer to this in terms of "dissatisfaction" and "bravery". Basically say the girl is disobeys during the whore job (by not doing it/doing badly). She'd gain a disobey point and everything will carry on as normal. However if she isn't punished within X number of days she gains a "bravery" point which increases the chance of her disobeying, unless she has the Broken trait (or the trait just lowers the increased chance). Same for obey points but with "dissatisfaction", which would decrease the chance of them obeying.

Would make broken slaves easier to manage and adds to the realism. Might end up as a huge AP sink though if the player has to spend all the time rewarding/punishing slaves.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 14, 2014, 11:35:44 AM
I wanted to handle it differently by simply not allowing untrained slaves to do normal jobs. Would simplify the matter...

Your way will work as well, but will require more checks and balances.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 14, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
Would make broken slaves easier to manage and adds to the realism. Might end up as a huge AP sink though if the player has to spend all the time rewarding/punishing slaves.

If you assign trainer to do the breaking routine, shouldn't trainer handle punishment? Yours could be extra I supopose.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Thewlis on October 17, 2014, 04:36:06 PM
Right I've updated the runaway code (and a lot of other things). Not going to push it yet as I still need to test most of it and I could have very well broken a lot of stuff.

Jobs
Buildings
Misc
Now for the actual training changes.

Bad Trainers
Girls now consider their trainers bad if their skill and knowledge (*0.8) exceed that of their trainers. This, along with the previous "I'm not trainer under a slave" condition will result in either a STOP or RUNAWAY state if the girl is free or a slave. As such other references to the BAD_TRAINER state have been removed. Lessons can contain custom text for BAD_TRAINING states still that will be displayed instead of normal RUNAWAY or STOP text.

Running Away
Notes
Currently while the RunawayManager can handle escape attempts from other locations, none of the checks are added in. What Jobs do we want these checks in, and what state do we want the girls in before they try and escape?

Currently girls who are searching don't count as guards in escape attempts. Do we want them included?

I'll probably have more notes/questions as I remember them.

PS: I despise this damn post editor.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on October 17, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
...

I'll just assume it's an awesome job on updating the games code. If you have time to wrap it up by tomorrow evening, I'll try to take a look at it.

Currently while the RunawayManager can handle escape attempts from other locations, none of the checks are added in. What Jobs do we want these checks in, and what state do we want the girls in before they try and escape?

Currently girls who are searching don't count as guards in escape attempts. Do we want them included?

I'll probably have more notes/questions as I remember them.

PS: I despise this damn post editor.

Well, as I've said, it's prolly a good idea to prevent putting untrained slaves to do actual jobs (especially if we go with simplified "breaking" routines, like having a conversation). If we take that path, they should only try to escape before they're broken or if they are being deceitful (pretending to be willing to serve while plotting an escape). The latter is prolly better left until better times due to complexity.

We'd prolly want guard included as (especially with more than one guard), we'd expect them not to run off and leave slaves unguarded... It may depend on the interface, if you're clearly sending a girl off to hunt for an escaped slave, we can leave her out of guarding. If we just ask her to try and find the escaped slave, we should subtract an AP or 2 and let her use the rest during the guard shift. (assuming guards spend AP during the guard shift).

PS: I despise this damn post editor.

LoL?

There is a huge difference in the interface options between "edit" and "modify" post. One would expect them to be the same, but they're not...
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on May 05, 2015, 06:57:58 AM
Ok, I only care about fanservice part of ST and lamoli disappeared, so we gonna use parts of Xela's concept for ST. My propositions:


- New screen, like in wm, for ST. Where you can see all slaves that you have in the dungeon at once, and interact with them.


- No reward/punishment system. We don't punish for disobedience and reward for obedience. Like in wm, we apply various bdsm actions to characters until they either agree to be 100% slaves or die/gone mad/run away. Of course you can also let them free, so they will join other city girls.

It's not like I dislike that system in JoNT, but I feel like we gonna steal something instead of making our own original concept if we'll use it  :)



- The core of the system are special traits and flags for them. Flags are invisible, some of those special traits too. That's how ST currently works more or less, but we require a more general approach.

Various types of training actions can not just change skills or stats, but also add and remove arbitrary flags. Like, rape action could give raped flag.
Special traits that we gonna use should have flags requirements that you can freely set in traits json. For example, trait "Raped lvl1" requires 1 raped flag, while trait "Raped lvl 5" requires 10 rape flags and 5 gang rape flags. It's just a quick example though, I'm not gonna use such traits  :)
Now if you somehow remove flags (raping is a bad example for it, really), these traits should disappear too until character will have enough flags again.

It also means double conditions in some cases. For example, I have raped lvl1 and raped lvl2 traits, first one requires 5 rape flags, second one 10. It means that rape lvl1 actually will be there from 5 to 9 flags, but at 10 flags it should disappear and be replaced by rape lvl2.

Also there should be a bit of randomness in training. I mean cases when some training could reduce health from 3 to 8 per day.



- These special traits should have some new fields:
 -- hidden or not. Some traits are so obvious or important that we might as well show them during ST process. Others will only serve for logic part, and we should hide them forever and use only in the training logic.
 -- inheritable or not. After ST ends, most of special traits will disappear since they no longer matter. But some of them will remain forever, or at least until you find a way to remove them somehow. Only visible traits could remain outside of ST.
-- required flags. You should actually be able to set needed flags right inside traits json. Maybe something like
Quote
"minflags": {"raped": 5},
"maxflags": {"raped": 9},
for cases when trait should disappear with too many flags. And just minflags:5 when the trait should remain until you decrease amount of flags.

Traits that remain after ST are consequences of too long and brutal ST due to low skill or unwillingness to finish it when you should do it already. Usually (but not always) you want to avoid them, since they are mostly negative.


- Difficulty of training. We don't have slave training skill yet, but it's a matter of one minute to add it.
-- Every trait in the game should add or remove difficulty of ST, depending on some new field that we don't have there yet.
Initial difficulty that we set according to girls jsons goes from 0 to 100. It should be normalized if needed.

-- Next step of difficulty is character level. Resulting training difficulty = base difficulty from jsons x level x 10. We might improve this formula somehow, I'm open to suggestions.

-- Your goal for succesful ST is to reduce resulting difficulty to 0. Every training action somehow changes it (not necessarily reduces). The problem is to do it before you kill or in some other way damage the slave. The more trainer's ST skill, the more training difficulty changes after training actions.

After difficulty becomes 0, you have a new option available, to put a (magic) stigma. Unlike wm, you cannot try it anytime in hope to get lucky with rng.
That concludes ST, and the slave joins other girls outside of the dungeon.


- Training itself should work pretty much like it already does. The difference is that you can apply ANY type of training anytime. Outcome depends on stuff like stats and traits, but nothing prevents you from doing anything you want if you don't care about it. There could be more than two outcomes (not just success and failure, like before). In fact, there is no failure, any training will work somehow. The question is, how.


- Running away.
We already have escape during training. However, the chance of success should depend on the difference between slave's and guard's battle skills (attack, defence, magic). This way items that reduce battle skills will be very useful for training ex-warriors.
We have a simple algorithm for brawling inside brothels, maybe we should use something like it.

Death and madness.
- Any training that decreases hp has the potential to kill, like in wm.
- The chance of suicide calculated every next turn depending on joy, traits and security rating.
- Same goes for training that decreases constitution. However, it's not that simple to restore it, so it's a more important problem. Constitution 0 means death after any type of training, not at the spot like with health 0.
- intelligence 0 means madness in terms of wm. Unlike wm, however, such girls cannot do anything, you cannot communicate with them except usual sex actions, all their skills become 0, traits that are not 100% permanent like body or main class traits disappear too. Even main personality trait disappears.
They are considered as fully trained slaves (since they are obedient now), but they worth close to nothing.
There should be means to slowly restore them (and give new, random main personality trait as a result, but anything else is lost forever).
- character 0 means broken status, it probably should be a trait with effect. It means that all remaining training will go much easier, that character will forever have 0 character stat until you remove this trait (will be bad for many jobs), and the value of broken slaves is somewhat lower too.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: DarkTl on May 05, 2015, 11:55:01 AM
Simply add a label to the training and it appears under the interactions screen/menu instead of the training one. Can move them to the new screen as well/exclusively once its made. Works on AP for girl and MC, so its still limited unless we add custom "x amount of girls = 1 AP logic".
Yup, there should be a separate screen. It's very inconvenient to do ST without it, especially because we have so many characters.
While MC should only spend AP on training, trainers aka other characters should continue to do it via next day buffer.

Currently the trait is added at 1+ and removed at 0, and only works with 1 trait. I can add better support for multiple traits and different levels to trigger at easily enough.
Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I like your idea of flags+traits, but it should be more flexible, like I described above.

    Then the function either starts the BE (will probably need updating as the BE has changed since I wrote the function), or uses s_conflict_resolver (the function for deciding brawls/attacks during serving and whoring jobs).
BE is for especial cases, we should avoid to run it too often. You could take a look at brothels, there somewhere should be a simple function coded by Xela that decides who wins in brothel fight depending on battle stats without BE. Or you could just code your own, a better one.

Currently no good place to put this, though the new training screen would probably be a good place for it.
We assume that even imprisonment, especially in poor conditions, can eventually break weak characters, thought it will take a lot of time. All conditions should work in the same way: they apply every turn without a need to do something in terms of training. And they can change somehow stats and skills every day.
It's almost how free girls can rest, restoring hp and vitality, but for slaves you should be able to control how they live, thus how they change every day.

Of course life conditions should have the same logic as normal training, ie different outcomes per day for different cases depending on character's traits and stats.
Title: Re: Slave Training (ST) concept
Post by: Xela on April 24, 2016, 07:51:34 AM
I am not going to archive the discussion but we are not likely to add ST to the beta.