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Author Topic: <-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept  (Read 173109 times)

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Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #315 on: August 18, 2014, 01:06:07 PM »
Maybe we could use structures like "dildo" + "anally" + "by girl" or "strapon" + "vaginally" + "to girl" instead. In case if dildo is not used, it's just dildo.
I planned to implement something along that lines for the new tagger. Currently, I had in mind to use what's there and just structure it a little better on the GUI without changing the internal tags (for compatibility), but if you want to make those changes internally as well... I can help.

+ I don't know if we should anticipate male/futa characters as well... this is hard to say atm.
Considering the above, this should be an easy change. Just add the character gender to the equation and adjust the displayed tags.
Have fun!

Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #316 on: September 07, 2014, 09:30:07 PM »
Yo.
So, I'm back from summer vacation - time to get things done.

At some point in the job text that dildo is going somewhere.  I don't think you really want the job text to read something like "The girl stood over her client holding a dildo with an evil look in her eye." and then just stop there.
QFT.

a "action" + "body location" + "by/to who"  system is probably the best solution.  It also leaves room to add on conditions like "mood".
This is easy to handle on my end (the tagger). But... (@Xela) can you handle resolving it properly?
When using this approach, maybe selecting a random (sex) image and then adjusting text and stats would be a lot easier (and faster) than generating a customer and then looking for the best image. That would also solve the statistical problem I mentioned earlier.
Naturally, that only works for prostitution. For player interaction, the same approach can be used, but the gender has to be locked and there may not be a second customer, but that shouldn't be too difficult. Job and profile pictures are a different story anyway.

Possible format:
  • Gender (unique)
  • Action
    • Voice (unique)
    • Body part
Example tag (grouped for each customer):
  • Female
  • Dildo
    • Passive
    • Vaginal
    • Anal
  • Lick
    • Active
    • Oral
Example usage:
  • Add description text for passive lesbian dildo sex (or vaginal and anal dildo sex, if you want more detailed descriptions)
  • Add description text for lesbian kissing
  • Add chance to increase oral stat
Notes:
  • Theoretically, not every action text needs to be displayed every time
  • If a description is hidden, it should be made clear if there are multiple customers (the customer type is a group)
  • There are no stat increases for passive actions (assuming that straight sex always counts as an active action)
  • The prostitute job should only allow images with at least one active action (not sure about this one, but it would make sense)
  • Defining kissing as oral licking (see the example above) would decrease the amount of wasted space on the tagger GUI and unify every stat under one action, but it's slightly unintuitive - having an own action for it might be a better idea
To be honest, I'm not sure if this approach is a good idea. It definitely is clean and easy to handle internally and it would decrease the amount of effort needed for detailed tagging - but on the other hand increase the effort for general tagging. I guess making the voice and the body part of the action optional would solve that issue, but that would require more general description texts as well.


What do you guys think?
Have fun!

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #317 on: September 08, 2014, 05:10:20 AM »
*Welcome back :)

As I've said in the gen thread, I will not have enough time for active development in the next few month so you'll have to discuss the system with Dark/CW and maybe Thewlis/Klaus/Lemoli + any ideas from the players.

We already have tag application system which can be expended indefinetly so you don't have to worry about that.

We need to add to the tagging system:

*Generalization tags to reduce database searches triggered by "exclude" such as *sex_tag (explicit sex), *nude_tag (explicit nudity), *clean_tag (no explicit sex/nudity).
*We need to add bondage category with descriptors for ST and possible new jobs.
*We may consider adding male/futa sexes and adapting sex tags to them.

As long as tagging software allows adding tags through json/xml, we're good for expansion.
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #318 on: September 08, 2014, 11:01:49 AM »
*Welcome back :)

As I've said in the gen thread, I will not have enough time for active development in the next few month so you'll have to discuss the system with Dark/CW and maybe Thewlis/Klaus/Lemoli + any ideas from the players.
Thanks and good luck with whatever you are busy with.

We already have tag application system which can be expended indefinetly so you don't have to worry about that.
My point was that for the above proposed changes, the tag format needs to be changed. Of course I could wrap all possible combinations into an own tag, but that would be a huge amount.

*Generalization tags to reduce database searches triggered by "exclude" such as *sex_tag (explicit sex), *nude_tag (explicit nudity), *clean_tag (no explicit sex/nudity).
*We need to add bondage category with descriptors for ST and possible new jobs.
*We may consider adding male/futa sexes and adapting sex tags to them.
I took a note, but I was trying to improve the concept before dealing with these kind of things:

When using this approach, maybe selecting a random (sex) image and then adjusting text and stats would be a lot easier (and faster) than generating a customer and then looking for the best image. That would also solve the statistical problem I mentioned earlier.
This is the key part. I want to reverse the logic for sex images. Instead of generating a situation and then looking for an image, look for an image and then generate the situation from the tags (which would be easy to do with the above format).

As long as tagging software allows adding tags through json/xml, we're good for expansion.
I planned a GUI for modifying the tags in any possible way (grouping, internal tag, external name, etc.). Actually, I've already written parts of it, but then realized that I'd like to improve the format first so it's propably obsolete.

Have fun!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 11:03:33 AM by livingforever »

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #319 on: September 08, 2014, 03:54:30 PM »
This is the key part. I want to reverse the logic for sex images. Instead of generating a situation and then looking for an image, look for an image and then generate the situation from the tags (which would be easy to do with the above format).

Thats how we use it at the moment, we check for available images and then pick one of the options (but first we pick general category assuming there is always a pic for it or use default text/pic instead).

Note that logic in jobs is not very flexible so changing it for tags significantly might mean a complete rewrite and that's not likely to happen any time soon unless Thewlis wants to take a stab at it.

It's prolly best to keep current loading system, just expand on it a bit and create a tagger that can write to files instead of JSON.

**In the FG I utilize new method of building images from images, we can use that for many jobs in the future I expect! Like a nude/cowgirl pic + generic milking of a tit (smaller side-picture) for any potential future milk-jobs in the future for example.
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #320 on: September 08, 2014, 08:46:25 PM »
Thats how we use it at the moment, we check for available images and then pick one of the options (but first we pick general category assuming there is always a pic for it or use default text/pic instead).
Still not what I mean.  ::)
I want to avoid checking for what's available. I want to pick a random image that is tagged as sex image and then parse the sex related tags to construct the text and the resulting stat increases.
No checking. No categories. No defaults. No static choice between the available options. Take any sex image, read the tags, construct the text, add relevant stats.

Note that logic in jobs is not very flexible so changing it for tags significantly might mean a complete rewrite and that's not likely to happen any time soon unless Thewlis wants to take a stab at it.
For now, that's fine. I only want to apply the concept to sex images, to see how it turns out. But if it turns out well, a similar concept could be applied for jobs at a later point in time.



Long €dit:
I had some time on my hands today, so I decided to make a few more points so you will (hopefully) never repeat this statement again:
It's prolly best to keep current loading system, just expand on it a bit and create a tagger that can write to files instead of JSON.
You really think so? Alright then, here's why not.

Pinkutako and DarkTI have already realized it: The sex tags currently are a mess and need a better format. If you don't believe me, here is a simple example.
Imagine a situation with more than two participants in the scene. For example, an image with the tags group, two girls, do dildo, dildo pussy, dildo anal. Read the tags carefully. Notice something? You have no idea what is actually going on in the scene. The tags do not define who is doing what to whom. This problem appears for every group image and propably for several other situations as well.

You think this is not a problem? It is. Why? Because you want detailed descriptions. That is the whole point of your system. But you can't provide detailed descriptions if the tags don't indicate what's going on in the scene. You could argue that you can always use more general descriptions as a backup plan, but that's exactely what you want to avoid with your tagging approach, so please don't bring it up - you'd be shooting in your own foot.

There is a second argument that you could bring up: Why use group images? If you're honestly asking yourself that question right now, allow me to quote Xela:
LoL You tagged 15658 images and typed this... At least Dark/CW'll have a laugh :D
Read the context if you aren't familiar with it. Xela told me that prostitution images in which the prostitute isn't taking the action should be allowed because there are a lot of images with that kind of situation. While I don't necessarily agree with the relevance of that argument, it is a valid point. So using passive prostitution images is fine, but group sex is not? Not cool.


That should make it clear that an improved tag format is needed (or at least very advisable if you want to keep up with your own standards and statements). Then the next question would be: Why do I want to change the way parsing works just because the tag format gets adjusted?
To put it simple: Because the new format makes parsing the tags a lot more complex. There is a context now, which means that you'd have to consider a ton of things when looking for an appropriate image. You'd have to include and exclude so many things that I definitely wouldn't want to write the code for it.


Now the problems should be clear. But what is the alternative, the solution?
  • Store images per character or don't store them at all. There's no point in having a tag database for all characters, the effort for sorting out a single one is too high.
    This will reduce the amount of images that need to be checked significantly.
  • Filter all unwanted tags before choosing a sex image (for example by mood, amount of customers, etc.).
    This will avoid having potentially unfitting images.
  • Pick one of the images randomly.
    This is a very low performance operation and will guarantee that every image is statistically equal.
  • Count the amount of customers and actions and choose an appropriate frame for the text description.
    You could also just concatenate the different descriptions, but that would be boring.
  • Insert the customers and actions into the description frame.
    Given that there are multiple frames and multiple descriptions for the same situation (chosen randomly), this will guarantee a lot of diversity.
And that is better because...?
  • Faster, more efficient parsing
  • Less wasted storage space
  • Easy to understand, fully procedural lookup algorithm
  • More intuitive tagging
  • Equal usage of every sex image
  • More diverse text descriptions
Have fun!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:13:11 PM by livingforever »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #321 on: September 10, 2014, 10:58:14 AM »
I personally think that detailed description of group pictures is too difficult to implement, maybe even impossible. There could be a dozen or more characters and each one of them could do something, while pictures from other categories don't have anything like that.

In your example we have two girls besides the character, and the character is fucked by dildo in both holes, with text like "two female customers had some fun with character_name's both holes and dildo", pardon my English. We cannot say by whom, and I have no idea what do dildo could mean here, because this is plainly a bad tag (©Xela) without 100% clear sense.

However, I doubt it's possible to clearly tag every person in group pictures, what they do and with whom. We can only use information like what they do with the girl and what the girl does with them, no matter whom exactly. And build texts as vague as possible in this regard.

I want to pick a random image that is tagged as sex image and then parse the sex related tags to construct the text and the resulting stat increases.
What if we have a pack with small amount of pictures in sex categories? Like 1-2? It's not unusual even for big enough packs.

Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #322 on: September 10, 2014, 11:23:48 AM »
I personally think that detailed description of group pictures is too difficult to implement, maybe even impossible. [...]
Definitely not impossible. My proposition allows exactely that and it includes both tagging and parsing.

What if we have a pack with small amount of pictures in sex categories? Like 1-2? It's not unusual even for big enough packs.
Then there is little choice. But that applies for the current format as well, so it's not a downside.
Have fun!

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #323 on: September 10, 2014, 03:46:12 PM »
Now the problems should be clear. But what is the alternative, the solution?
  • Store images per character or don't store them at all. There's no point in having a tag database for all characters, the effort for sorting out a single one is too high.
    This will reduce the amount of images that need to be checked significantly.
  • Filter all unwanted tags before choosing a sex image (for example by mood, amount of customers, etc.).
    This will avoid having potentially unfitting images.
  • Pick one of the images randomly.
    This is a very low performance operation and will guarantee that every image is statistically equal.
  • Count the amount of customers and actions and choose an appropriate frame for the text description.
    You could also just concatenate the different descriptions, but that would be boring.
  • Insert the customers and actions into the description frame.
    Given that there are multiple frames and multiple descriptions for the same situation (chosen randomly), this will guarantee a lot of diversity.

Last two I do not completely understand. First three are non issues:

Code: [Select]
>>> Timer("100042 in S", "S=set(range(100000))").timeit(number=10000)
0.0006740093231201172

(Ten thousand lookups in a set of hundred thousand items... for an item that doesn't exists. Done in less than a microsecond.)

Image lookups are not slowing us down (at all, I've timed it in a game not so long ago). I've said it before I think that recoding image database itself in PyTFall is idiotic since perfecting other code will give a far better result. Remember my ServiceJob fix after I inserted timeit modules over the whole game? Knocked 15+ seconds of a 17 seconds of calculations (a test with 1300 characters)... We'd need to make image database few million/billion times faster to get those kinds of results. It's like trying to improve upon speed of light :)

What we need now is a tagger that can write to filenames and has features Dark asked for (quick image lookup, adding new tags, decent interface, some sorting options and etc.).

You really shouldn't worry about loopup speed when thinking about tagging system, I've requested generalization tags to replace our lists to "improve performance" but it's basically me "bullshiting" myself as those lookups are too fast to even be timed properly at their current state.
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #324 on: September 10, 2014, 03:52:40 PM »
We lack something for the group pics?  ??? I don't have any problem describing them with current set of tags at all. And I can easilly imagine whats going on in that dildo example. Seriosly I fail to see any problem there, as it is now.

(Based on the premise that we only want to know what is happening to the focused girl and what she is doing, like dark said in green - I don't think we need to care about customers)

Can you guys post some of those troublesome pics that you have problem tagging?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 04:09:20 PM by CherryWood »

Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #325 on: September 10, 2014, 04:25:36 PM »
...

Look, I know you said that you don't have much time at the moment, but you could at least read my post. Taking 3 out of 6 improvements and stating that they aren't necessary is an incredibly ignorant argument.
On a side note, "recoding" the database - which actually is just a quite simple change - isn't only intended to speed things up, it's also making things more clear so everyone reading the code has an easier time. Simple object oriented programming, no witchcraft required.
/rant

We lack something for the group pics?  ??? I don't have any problem describing them with current set of tags at all. And I can easilly imagine whats going on in that dildo example. Seriosly I fail to see any problem there, as it is now.

(Based on the premise that we only want to know what is happening to the focused girl and what she is doing, like dark said in green - I don't think we need to care about customers)
Can you describe the example to me then? Without generalizations?
If so, please answer these questions:
  • Are both dildos (vaginal and anal) held by the same girl?
  • Which of the two is the character using the dildo on?
  • What position are they in? Line? Circle? 69 with one bystander?
And these are just the open questions that are directly concerning the focused character. I agree that the rest isn't as important.

Have fun!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 04:35:42 PM by livingforever »

Offline Xela

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #326 on: September 10, 2014, 05:01:03 PM »
Look, I know you said that you don't have much time at the moment, but you could at least read my post. Taking 3 out of 6 improvements and stating that they aren't necessary is an incredibly ignorant argument.
/rant

*I didn't mean to start another argument.

- Speed is not an issue with current database access.
- We need a decent tagger that can write to filenames.

was what I meant to say.

**I don't think we need that kind of precision with group/bdsm pictures.
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Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #327 on: September 10, 2014, 05:05:01 PM »
- Speed is not an issue with current database access.
- We need a decent tagger that can write to filenames.

was what I meant to say.

**I don't think we need that kind of precision with group/bdsm pictures.
So you didn't mean to say anything that I don't already know and left out your opinion on the matter.

So we need precision everywhere, so much that a tagging system such as yours is required, but not for groups and BDSM? I've covered that argument in my post.
Have fun!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 05:07:16 PM by livingforever »

Offline CherryWood

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #328 on: September 10, 2014, 05:09:17 PM »
If so, please answer these questions:
Ok, so nothing is wrong, but you just want more detail?
I can't answer those from current tags of couse, but that level of description is beyond what I consider meaningfull. (At least for group pics)

Offline livingforever

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Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #329 on: September 10, 2014, 05:12:21 PM »
Ok, so nothing is wrong, but you just want more detail?
I can't answer those from current tags of couse, but that level of description is beyond what I consider meaningfull. (At least for group pics)

And why should group pictures have more general descriptions than everything else?