Talk options

[letmein]

First off, necno, love the addition here.  Having more talk options is, in my opinion, an essential.

However, I have a couple general questions.  First of all, do you think that the number of available talks should be increased?  Five seems pretty low, especially considering that most games get to 40+ girls, easily.  Perhaps you can increase the *total* number of available talk actions, but restrict the number you can have with one girl?  I wouldn't let the player talk to every girl three times, but since you changed the timeframe to a week what if you had the total value be, say, two or three times a day?  That'd be fourteen or twenty-one talk actions...

My other question is simple.  What do all of these do?  Sure, I can interact in a zillion different ways, but what difference does that make?  I don't necessarily need (or even want) to know the exact details, but how about a quick overview?  Something like "if you force actions, you can assume the girl will be PO'd at you but her rebellion will generally decrease", or "more... exotic... actions have a chance to affect her personality".


Thanks!

- letmein

[Mehzerz]

I think you'd have TOO many then. What I think may be a better option is to upgrade the player. So you'll start out with only being able to talk to the girls 5 times and slowly upgrade it to maybe 10 times. For a large sum of money, or achieving specific conditions.
It doesn't have to be restricted to talk options either, but how quickly girls train together, maybe the chances of rare items appearing in the store, or how much talking/torture does to a girl. ect. ect.

[fg109]

I like the upgrade idea.  How about making it so that achieving objectives give you ability points instead of random amounts of money or items?  Then you can use these ability points to buy upgrades.

About the talk options:
Talk about general stuff - toned down version of previous comfort option
Ask about day - raises love faster, but does nothing to hate or fear
All the ask for options - if successful, same effect as talking about general stuff as well as exp in the sex skills
All the force options - well... if the girl didn't love you at all, then rebelliousness would probably decrease but otherwise you will need to raise love back up for you to see the decrease

[exodia91]

how about making girls with the masochist trait like being forced, but not like being asked?

[DocClox]

I must admit, that's how I'd expect it to work.

[Bloodly]

Masochst, Twisted...al those sorts.

[letmein]

Well, maybe, but I wouldn't guarantee that.  Just because you're a masochist doesn't mean you *dislike* when someone asks first...

[DocClox]

Well, in in real life, certainly. In the game though ...

[letmein]

I suppose.  I, personally, wouldn't worry about it - it's an unnecessary complication, as both traits and the new talk options are already quite complex.  I'm not sure anyone really knows what all the traits and talk options do, including necno.  That's not necessarily bad, since this way there's a certain element of faux randomness, but complication tends to lead to bugs too (evidenced by the constant reports of traits doing weird things, and the newer ones involving the talk menu).  So it's not necessarily good either.  Again, why do it, if it's not really going to add much for the effort required?  (I say this, not because this one thing would be hard, but because once you relate one trait to the talk actions sooner or later you'll be relating a *lot* more of them...)

[DocClox]

I suppose.  I, personally, wouldn't worry about it - it's an unnecessary complication, as both traits and the new talk options are already quite complex. 

Personally, I think it's the little "unnecessary complications" that give games like this their depth.

I say this, not because this one thing would be hard, but because once you relate one trait to the talk actions sooner or later you'll be relating a *lot* more of them...

We can worry about crossing that bridge when we get to it, if you ask me.

That said, it's necno's call.

[letmein]

See, whereas I believe there is a strong, and oft-ignored, difference between depth and complexity.  Games do not need to be complicated to be repeatably and consistently entertaining, although I acknowledge that they *can* be.  I just want to make sure that things are considered for a while before they're thrown into the game haphazardly.

So far, I think necno's done an excellent job of keeping his additions useful and fun, and I don't really expect that to stop.  On the other hand, with so many people saying "more! more! more!", should there not be at least one person serving as devil's advocate, just for balance?  It's completely necno's creation, but he *does* take player remarks into consideration (otherwise, there would be no open beta).

[DocClox]

See, whereas I believe there is a strong, and oft-ignored, difference between depth and complexity.  Games do not need to be complicated to be repeatably and consistently entertaining, although I acknowledge that they *can* be.  I just want to make sure that things are considered for a while before they're thrown into the game haphazardly.

Oh no question about it. Go is a fantastic example of a game with simplicity and depth. And, at a certainly level of abstraction, it's not only an excellent game, but a decent wargame too.

The trouble is that it's not exactly the sort of game that evokes the smell of blood and cordite, y'know? It's a fun game but it's not a Sim.

Contrast that with Sid Meyer's Civ games which do evoke their setting powerfully. Yet these are complexity stacked atop complexity.

At the end of the day, our experience of reality is a complex one. If a game strives to create the illusion of a fully functioning world, it will need to recreate a lot of that complexity if the simulation is to appear convincing.

with so many people saying "more! more! more!", should there not be at least one person serving as devil's advocate, just for balance? 

The way you joined this discussion led me to believe that you found the proposal personally distasteful, and that you disliked the notion that some of the game characters might respond well to force. I'm willing to accept that I formed an incorrect impression, but if so, I don't understand why you're opposing such a tiny change with such determination.

[letmein]

Contrast that with Sid Meyer's Civ games which do evoke their setting powerfully. Yet these are complexity stacked atop complexity.

Well, yes, to an extent.  Again, I'm not arguing that games *can't* be complex while being deep.  On the other hand, my least favorite of the Civ series was, hands-down, Civ III - which, arguably, was the most "complicated" of the series.  The devs there also do a phenomenal job of only adding things that make the game better, and streamling, streamlining, streamlining...

The way you joined this discussion led me to believe that you found theproposal personally distasteful, and that you disliked the notion thatsome of the game characters might respond well to force. I'm willing toaccept that I formed an incorrect impression, but if so, I don'tunderstand why you're opposing such a tiny change with suchdetermination.

Oh, no more distastful than the whole point of the game, which is "never in real life, but in a game?  Sure."  Much like playing hockey, mowing down policemen (and hapless innocents!) with a Glock, or singing in a band.

As for the second part, "opposing... with determination", all I can say is that perhaps I am overreacting.  However, I still believe that the game will truly be better if kept relatively simpler; better for the programmer, the modders, the players and even for the simple aesthetic joy of making something good.  So again I reiterate that someone has to take the other side, and say "less less less" to the "more more more"'s. 

[Solo761]

My two cents on this "issue" . While I can't say that having some more chat options isn't nice people seem to forget what this game is about. Although I'm not exactly sure with that myself, I'm pretty sure it wasn't supposed to be dating sim . What's in there ATM is far more than enough. Who wants more can make talkscripts that do more. Each girl can have her individual talk script so if you want special talk menu make one.

If I remember correctly necno said he plans to add player home to the map and that player could have few girls there. I can already see new requests, furniture store, house decorations and similar .

I mean, I have nothing against it, but what's exactly the point of the game, and what's an overkill?

[DocClox]

Well, the point under dispute (unless I misunderstood something basic) was wasn't more or less talk options, but rather whether or not it would be a good idea to make masochistic girls respond better to being forced than to being asked. It's not even an extra talk option, it's just a single if statement. Maybe two.

And except in so far as that's how I would have expected the game to work, I really don't have any strong opinions on the subject. Although I will admit to a certain mystification as to how the whole thing got blown this far out  of proportion.