General Discussion

[rudistoned]

What's fun about punishing the player for forgetting to buy food (unless the game is about wilderness survival, of course)? Could we not just assume people are smart enough to buy food before they go into an area where there is none?

[DarkTl]

Lol, unless you are "smart" enough to buy infinite amount of food, it's not an argument. The game doesn't have sci-fi food synthesizers, at least yet.

If explorations are almost not dangerous, they are not explorations but walk in park. Since Xela doesn't want to spend AP on movement, and exploration engine is a simple slideshow without any real restrictions or routes, MC can return to the city immediately under all circumstances except for middle of battle (maybe, or maybe you could run anytime). And now you tell me that MC should have a couple of infinite resources as well. Damn, looks like my own house is less safe than wild forest in Pytfall.

[Xela]

Ah yes, the fog. Nope, it doesn't mess up directions, more like randomise distance traveled. That's actually could be used to some degree in the forest, since MC is not a forest's inhabitant, and even if he has rmg forest's inhabitants in the party, they were captured and lived in the city for too long, so they cannot help, considerably at least.

Maybe after 1.0 at deepwood, this is very premature.

Well, rest is a good way to restore AP to me anyway.

Spending the night in outside of the city is not gonna be there before 1.0. We might add expeditions later, but not before Hentai Brothel Sim part is properly released. I am not having this discussion again, it's like Alkion's chatroom 2.0 right now, Hentai Brothel Sim vs jRPG variant. PyTFall is gonna be the first option until we get that right and than, after a solid version like that is released we will either move towards adding jRPG, SlaveMaker or "Sim City" but NOT before 1.0!

That's why I proposed food/water/whatever to loose instead of AP during traveling. As long as you keep fighting, you're out of danger. But if you prefer to avoid fights, run from battles (I guess we'll have "run" option in BE?) and so on, be sure to buy something eatable before leaving the city.

No idea about the "run" option but I can add it together with any other requests when I address the BE programming and properly study/understand the workings of the engine. I don't know if that's gonna be before or after 1.0.

Otherwise, we don't need supply, it's just confusing and redundant for the introduction.

Lol, unless you are "smart" enough to buy infinite amount of food, it's not an argument. The game doesn't have sci-fi food synthesizers, at least yet.

I think Rudi's argument was same as my own (he can correct me if I am wrong), we assume that characters in the game wash themselves, take sh!ts, walk between locations, dream and so on but we don't simulate all of that, neither do we even simulate cooking in Brothel at this point, suggesting the need of supplies for exploration in version that is supposed to be about brothel management is redundant.

If explorations are almost not dangerous, they are not explorations but walk in park. Since Xela doesn't want to spend AP on movement, and exploration engine is a simple slideshow without any real restrictions or routes, MC can return to the city immediately under all circumstances except for middle of battle (maybe, or maybe you could run anytime). And now you tell me that MC should have a couple of infinite resources as well. Damn, looks like my own house is less safe than wild forest in Pytfall.

Walk in a park is a walk in a park (we have one if you recall) and the most dangerous thing that can happen there is a girl telling player to shove off.

In exploration, next level of it will be blocked so player doesn't know what's there until a number of enemies are defeated or a quest is fulfilled (hence exploration) so movement is to a point restricted by that already. Also there will be powerful mods deeper into the forest so it will be dangerous enough. Another thing is that we can block returning to the city on quests that will become available as player advances far enough.

====================================================================
In short, all good things for those who wait

We need to finish the Brothel management version while starting laying the groundwork for slave/girl training/capture, interesting city, balanced game, decent quests, arena and so on but we should not let our concepts get ahead of development order.

[rudistoned]

We need to finish the Brothel management version while starting laying the groundwork for slave/girl training/capture, interesting city, balanced game, decent quests, arena and so on but we should not let our concepts get ahead of development order.

Seconded.


In earlier days, when I was working on a program I often tried to plan ahead a lot and included elements in the code I created that were not needed now, but would be useful in the future (or so I thought). As it turned out, my requirements shifted during development and most of the planning-ahead work was wasted. Even worse, due to those elements that had no real use yet, my code became more complicated and harder to understand.
From Xela and Mijh I learned that solving problems that exist now with a simple solution is a lot more productive. I still don't think you should _never_ implement something you don't need right now, but you definitely should have really good reasons to do so.


In short: implementing a feature only half the way and starting work on many different things will waste lots of effort and make life harder for the project.

[Xela]

Yeap.

We already have a decent amount of battle/exploration capabilities for 1.0. For example:

1st Level of forest:

Required to kill 20 enemies to advance.

2nd Level of forest:

Required to kill 30 enemies and complete two quests that become available after you've killed the enemies.

and so on.

I have a number of ideas for quests like rare ingredients for the witch so she can make some ultra rare/expensive potions or taking out an powerful elfgirl on the request of rich slavetrader cause she and some friends/animals are attacking his caravans, player can decide who to side with and get more missions in the same spirit afterwards.

Maybe setting up couple of villages with unique creatures (fairies for example) as player advances into the forest.

My point is that we can make it interesting in ways that are already available and do not require extra programming and advance the system after we've added slave training, hunting, alchemy and other ways to play the game than running brothel. Then it would make more sense and be justified (things like a raiding/hunting trip deep into the forest (for a number of days) to get some rare/exotic monster girls for training/to sell/pit in the arena), making a system like that right now is to soon! We would do well in adding new buildings (like a hunting/training guild run by the player instead of brothel), slave training logic, npcs, capturing logic, arena, improved battle engine, etc. first.

[DarkTl]

implementing a feature only half the way

...is exactly what we going to do with the whole forest right now.

Another thing is that we can block returning to the city on quests that will become available as player advances far enough.

We cannot. Without AP you can't do anything. AP can be restored in brothel only, since spending the night in outside of the city is not gonna be there before 1.0.

In exploration, next level of it will be blocked so player doesn't know what's there until a number of enemies are defeated or a quest is fulfilled (hence exploration) so movement is to a point restricted by that already. Also there will be powerful mods deeper into the forest so it will be dangerous enough.

Challenging? Yes. Dangerous? Only if we won't have "run" option within BE at all.

We already have a decent amount of battle/exploration capabilities for 1.0. For example:

1st Level of forest:

Required to kill 20 enemies to advance.

2nd Level of forest:

Required to kill 30 enemies

Looks like a concept of arena rather than forest exploration: continuous fights to unlock the next level while standing still. Imagine 20-30 battles in a row on the same screen without elements of real exploration, for example finding a chest with goods, a random cave, or even simply moving somewhere. It will get bored very quickly.

What's the difference between the arena and the dungeon?
In dungeon you are on your own, for example if you low on health, don't have healing items and spells anymore and too far from the exit, well, it probably means that you are not well enough prepared, and time to pay for it or load the game. No middle ground.

At arena you have to defeat one or several enemy waves and claim your reward. Often you don't know how strong will be the next enemy, but after each wave or several waves you can exit if you want to and instantly get to safety.

In dungeon you have freedom of movement, including the possibility of getting lost in some cases. At arena you mostly stand on the spot, and enemies are coming to you.

Sounds familiar, eh? And what do we do when there will be a real arena?
That could work if BE we used was similar to tactic rpg. But it's not, it's a classic jrpg engine.

Then it would make more sense and be justified (things like a raiding/hunting trip deep into the forest (for a number of days) to get some rare/exotic monster girls for training/to sell/pit in the arena), making a system like that right now is to soon!

Indeed. I proposed earlier to create an arena for 1.0 instead of forest and other dungeons, but you refused. Now you trying to make a forest similar to arena, except for the scenery 

[Xela]

...is exactly what we going to do with the whole forest right now.

There is difference between half-implementation and introduction. Also as I've explained in previous posts, general forest concept we've discussed already has a great deal of possibilities and functionality, it's more than enough for 1.0...

We cannot. Without AP you can't do anything. AP can be restored in brothel only, since spending the night in outside of the city is not gonna be there before 1.0.

Challenging? Yes. Dangerous? Only if we won't have "run" option within BE at all.

Yes we can. Single AP cost of 3/4 points per team-member at a single attempt/fail at a quest. Simple, clean and clear.

We don't have a run option so if adding it will hurt the game, we'll simply leave it out. Also as I've said, there is no certainty about modding the BE before 1.0. I even enjoyed the simple battle option in Otherworld (original release)... what we have now is better and more entertaining.

Looks like a concept of arena rather than forest exploration: continuous fights to unlock the next level while standing still. Imagine 20-30 battles in a row on the same screen without elements of real exploration, for example finding a chest with goods, a random cave, or even simply moving somewhere. It will get bored very quickly.

Matter of opinion, as I've said above, even OW system didn't get boring quickly (And I missed after it was taken off the game), not mentioning our mobs have 280 different items and gold to "drop"   Powering up is addicting, not the battle format.

What's the difference between the arena and the dungeon?
In dungeon you are on your own, for example if you low on health, don't have healing items and spells anymore and too far from the exit, well, it probably means that you are not well enough prepared, and time to pay for it or load the game. No middle ground.

Already addressed that in previous post. There are plenty of great games where returning to safety is a given from any place/dungeon/location. A very solid "middleground" and different approaches that have been proven to work out perfectly are available, at least to me.

At arena you have to defeat one or several enemy waves and claim your reward. Often you don't know how strong will be the next enemy, but after each wave or several waves you can exit if you want to and instantly get to safety.

That is one of the possibilities for Arena and bit different from what I proposed.

In dungeon you have freedom of movement, including the possibility of getting lost in some cases. At arena you mostly stand on the spot, and enemies are coming to you.

That could work if BE we used was similar to tactic rpg. But it's not, it's a classic jrpg engine.

One again, somewhat different concept for the Arena than mine and we were talking about basic exploration in the forest, not a dungeon and even as I've said above, there are different approaches to both available. I can see our BE format working out just fine.

And what do we do when there will be a real arena?

Reputation/fame requirement to participate and pick better opponents, some warrior girls/NPCs in the game chosen to participate (and dedicate themselves to Arena) before you might even meet them (fighting each other without your knowledge as part of city "life" simulation), prices of gold, not items, ladder of 20 -40 top "gladiators", tournament every 40 - 60 days. It's a system that's structured very differently and you need to "set up" matches before you fight them as Arena suggest spectators, planning.

Indeed. I proposed earlier to create an arena for 1.0 instead of forest and other dungeons, but you refused. Now you trying to make a forest similar to arena, except for the scenery 

It's so dissimilar in my mind that I find it very hard to comment on this... It's like saying that Spain and Somalia are similar except for a couple of minor "issues" while having a discussion about where to go on vacation... both have beaches, people, maybe even food?

[DarkTl]

There are plenty of great games where returning to safety is a given from any place/dungeon/location.

I'm failing to recall decent non real time games in which you can instantly and for free return to home base from any dangerous location. At best you need an item in inventory (not the cheapest one btw) or enough mp for a spell (if you have a character knowing such spell).

That is one of the possibilities for Arena and bit different from what I proposed.

Yeah, I know you proposed another concept, I'm talking about arenas from other games. For example, your forest concept is very similar to arena from Darksiders 2. But it's a slasher, you don't have time to get bored during multiple dangerous battles there, you will die instantly.

we were talking about basic exploration in the forest, not a dungeon

Um, it is a matter of terminology. I call it dungeon because you fight mobs and search for items there. Like in any actual game dungeon.

[Xela]

I'm failing to recall decent non real time games in which you can instantly and for free return to home base from any dangerous location. At best you need an item in inventory (not the cheapest one btw) or enough mp for a spell (if you have a character knowing such spell).

SlaveMaker, Original OW release, Fan Fantasy or any RPG maker game that depends on collision with visible enemies + PytFall is "half" real time if traveling doesn't require AP

Yeah, I know you proposed another concept, I'm talking about arenas from other games. For example, your forest concept is very similar to arena from Darksiders 2. But it's a slasher, you don't have time to get bored during multiple dangerous battles there, you will die instantly.

Well, the whole BE before 1.0 thing is still open for the debate so there we go Roman released new Alkion into chatroom tonight with basic alchemy, I am going to try out what's that's like. All and all, the forest system I proposed for 1.0 is interesting, engaging and offers a bunch of quests possibilities that Arena is not capable of providing so it is definitely an option at this point. I am planning to spend the whole day tomorrow coding for PyTFall/Testing/Reading new Alkions code cause I've been putting off project time for a while now... so if all goes well, I want a decent amount of brothel control functionality be ready by tomorrow evening and then I can start putting together some content for forest to figure out how that feels/plays in real time.

Um, it is a matter of terminology. I call it dungeon because you fight mobs and search for items there. Like in any actual game dungeon.

I already found a bloody excellent random dungeons generation script we can use almost through copy/paste, but it's introduction into the game is premature... lets 1.0 be about brothel sim with some bait for what's to come in the future

[DarkTl]

Well, Kamidori is built on alchemy, about 90% of items could be only created, not found. I'm not against the same concept.
There are even rare components that could be found once or twice per game (but the game has infinite NG+, and you can carry over them).

[Xela]

Well, Kamidori is built on alchemy, about 90% of items could be only created, not found. I'm not against the same concept.
There are even rare components that could be found once or twice per game (but the game has infinite NG+, and you can carry over them).

Alchemy is easy to code and is very rewarding, designing items from ingredients is a lot harder and more time consuming than writing the base code (same as with items themselves I guess). While it fits into Alkions concept perfectly, I can't tell if we need it before 1.0 in PyTfall or not (Prolly not in my mind)... NG+ in itself is very easy to code using RenPy.

[DarkTl]

Items were dictated by available good icons. I believe reagents, as almost any plant, gem, stone, etc., will have no lack of icons, and they probably don't need descriptions as well. So the balance is the only problem, providing that we come up with interesting, suitable concept of alchemy (I recall at least 6 various ones from different games).

[DarkTl]

forest system I proposed for 1.0 is interesting, engaging and offers a bunch of quests possibilities that Arena is not capable of providing

As long as you don't expect me to write dialogues for those quests 

That's all, I'm unable to find any more decent forest related pics, unless we agree to use pics of real forests. I guess I'll start to create a couple of unique-based fairies now.

[Xela]

Ok, I'll start working on clearing TODO list as planned.

=============================================================
Edit:
Didn't get as much done as I've planned for today but RL crap kept getting in the way. Most screen/gui logic for girl control is ready, actual effects should be ready tomorrow.

[DarkTl]

After creating another rmg I decided that I might as well create full SAO pack, and encountered a problem. At least one character, while having about 150 decent pics, doesn't have suitable pic for battle sprite, probably because she never participated in real battles. I expect more such characters in the future, so I propose check on presence of battle sprite, and in its absence character cannot be used in BE.
Or I could create "battle sprite" based on something like this.