devolution

Author Topic: General Discussion  (Read 3821827 times)

0 Members and 27 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline CherryWood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 643
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2595 on: April 08, 2014, 12:02:23 PM »
pushed a small tag adjustment




I planned to do much more (fix tags in service/rest (and put more rest images to use) and rework gms to get rid of that excessive excluding) but I ran out of time and energy so it will have to wait...

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2596 on: April 08, 2014, 04:16:43 PM »
Alright, summarizing my thoughts about ST...

*Obedience is a must have, we cannot use disposition alone for everything. It should be the same stat for everyone, but it could be called obedience for slaves and, for example, dedication, allegiance or loyality for free ones.

*Sensitivity from both Valet and SM. In the first game it means both physical and psychological sensitivity, in the second one it means physical only. Depends on how deep you want to simulate girls psychology. Basically, using too rough punishments and too perverted training/actions descrease it in both games, and vice versa.

*Escort, singing/dancing/music, healing, clerical work skills we could add at some point, providing that there will be jobs using them, not necessarily within brothels. Right now we don't have such jobs, we most likely will at least some of them in the future.

* BDSM skill is a must have.

*I'm not so sure about group though, basically you do the same thing, but with many people, so... Maybe we should use stat like pride/libido/obedience or something like that, so if pride is high enough for example, then a girl will refuse to do group.

*Petting. Both Valet and SM have it. Maybe we should too. In Valet it's a prelude to sex, in SM it's masturbation types of skills, basically.

*We could port a lot from Valet, I doubt it will ever have translations.


Yeah well... loads more stats and clicks basically then?

The thing is that I am not entirely sure that it's the way to go right now. I've had 10x more fun playing Akabur's new training game then I've ever did playing Valet pletej. Obviously his design revolves around his art and is therefor pretty awesome but we could take that direction with slave training (more trait checks/simple jobs + less stats) instead of SM/Valet approach.

Events/personality driven training may pay off better in the end. But we still have plenty of time to decide.
Like what we're doing?

Offline h3nta1fun

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2597 on: April 08, 2014, 05:01:36 PM »
Maybe instead of adding more stats, it could be better to add the traits + stats + level to decide a few things. For level could indicate a girl's professionalism towards a job and then adding certain traits and/or stats to see if she accepts to do something and how well she does that. No need to add more stuff that way, just use what is already there.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2598 on: April 09, 2014, 02:05:34 AM »
Maybe instead of adding more stats, it could be better to add the traits + stats + level to decide a few things. For level could indicate a girl's professionalism towards a job and then adding certain traits and/or stats to see if she accepts to do something and how well she does that. No need to add more stuff that way, just use what is already there.

Should prolly be simpler than this...
Like what we're doing?

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2599 on: April 09, 2014, 03:25:15 AM »
Yeah well... loads more stats and clicks basically then?
You cannot avoid more stats anyway. At least bdsm and some kind of obedience/loyality are required no matter the system.

As I mentioned, unlike pretty much any other system (even rmg capturing), I have no idea how our slavetraining should look like  :D

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2600 on: April 09, 2014, 03:36:22 AM »
As I mentioned, unlike pretty much any other system (even rmg capturing), I have no idea how our slavetraining should look like  :D

Me neither... kinda hoping we'll figure it out.
Like what we're doing?

Offline alucard41

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2601 on: April 09, 2014, 03:41:27 AM »
How to rank up girl? I have met all the requiments(Money,exp,refiment) but i can not rank her up.Do I need to click on a circle with rank?

Click on the coin near to the girl's rank.(it turns golden when you can rank up a girl) ::)

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2602 on: April 09, 2014, 06:52:54 AM »
but we could take that direction with slave training (more trait checks/simple jobs + less stats) instead of SM/Valet approach.
*SM is pretty boring because it is repetitive. It has many stats, jobs, endings, but in the end it lacks diversity, they are just numbers that you can clearly see and control.

*Another problem is too good attitude to slaves. You gradually change their lifestyle and behavior rather than train/break/punish/whatever they do with slaves.

*Valet doesn't have numbers at all. Up to the point that many things are completly unobvious (and without wiki I still do not know many things about it). Also you cannot just go to some teacher or buy a skill book for any MC stat, mostly you learn when you do it - pretty hardcore and interesting. Also it tries to simulate psychology, there are alot of punishments and rewards for slaves, and you have to balance them out, not just rise all stats to max.

*It is also very cruel. They live in the place where unprofitable to deliver any decent food AND they have a constant influx of people from many other worlds, so it's a f-king city of cannibals. Not to mention many other things, like anatomical theater for undead where actresses do not live longer than one performance.

I guess we must find a middle ground  :)

Offline alucard41

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2603 on: April 09, 2014, 11:11:44 AM »
Hmm,why don't you make game routes?(or goals...however you wanna call them)
Each goal focusing on different kind of training and stuff like that.
You already pretty much got some achievable goals with the current MC proffesions.For example the warrior could have world conquest as one of the avaible goals to choose(which should effect the harshness of the slave training depending on the player's personality) or a royal slaver goal for the casanova(which will obvious require harsher training of slaves for the sake of the goal itself).
Anyway this is just a suggestion,if it take to much time to do or is no good that's it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:13:30 AM by alucard41 »

Offline h3nta1fun

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2604 on: April 09, 2014, 01:49:06 PM »
Is group actions planned for the future? I have seen a lot of that in the packs, but nowhere in the actual game so far. I haven't taken a good look at the game's code yet, but I was wondering about it.


As for the traits and jobs, I agree with keeping them under control, as far as how many there are going to be included. The problem with SM was just how much there was to it. After all, beyond a certain point it's no longer fun, but just plain repetitive. So probably it would be better to add more variations in the texts. Since the report is made from a few chunks of text, with each one having several possibilities, even if you add a few flavor texts, the total combinations will increase dramatically. That way the game will not look as repetitive as some other ones, with just a few different texts here and there.

Offline Marquis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2605 on: April 09, 2014, 03:42:40 PM »
Security: I think one should be able to hire security from girls willing to be a warrior without going through girlsmeet disposition raising. You're paying a salary for a pretty cushy job where the warrior only occasionally has to take on an unruly customer. Maybe add a 'shopping' button at the Arena where one could hire Security.Having the warrior participate in arena matches could require a job switch and some level of positive disposition, maybe modified by traits. Convincing her to take any other job would still require a major disposition shift. Also, 'wasting' a room on a guard seems harsh, especially at smaller brothels. Perhaps one security guard can take the MC 'room' slot. So if the MC is assigned to a brothel, the guard needs a room, but if the MC is assigned to a different brothel, the guard doesn't take a room.


Offline Cringe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2606 on: April 10, 2014, 12:33:43 AM »
Hello,

I took some time to write out a thoughtful critique from a first time player's perspective of the game after several hours of play. I don't know whats on your "To Do" or what has or hasn't been discussed to death. I'm playing version .45. All of my comments are focused on play-ability, presentation, and GUI.

First thoughts about the user interface after playing a short while.
Inconsistent
Messy
Disjointed
Busy
Clumsy

After several hours of playing.
The game is stuck between a Macro world and a Micro interface. You can have it both ways, you just need a different approach to the menu system and accessing information and management tools.


Suggestions that would (in my opinion of course) make the UI better.

General:
Pick a consistent set of UI elements and stick with them. Example; the “X” button has several different Icons and there are at least 4 distinct styles of “buttons.”


There are a metric fuckton of different Fonts. Font management is a huge part of a unifying look and feel to a game. Its especially important that it be legible, while the cute main-menu-information-panel-text looks cute, it’s harder to read.


The layout of the menus varies wildly. From the main menu 3 panel design with help text at the bottom, to the open map with floating help text, to the “narrative” scenes with a speech panel, to floating panels (like finance) to different styles textures and layouts for the Girls, Brothels and the labyrinth of menus within those menus which are all different from each other. Ah and the Hero menu which looks like no other menu and I almost forgot the options menu, less important but again with nothing in common.


The by-far best looking menu is the “Girls” Menu. It has good design and great functionality. It is one of the few menus with a solid organizational approach. The subtle background and clean layout make it stand out as a great menu. The one and only thing I would change is the “Page” button, move it from the top bar to the bottom of the page.


The Top Bar is also very good looking. Keep it consistent. If you going to put the next/previous page button on it, be consistent and always use that feature. The Bar would be an optimal place to put a “back” or “leave” button instead of “X” for shops and town places. Most importantly the less the bar changes menu to menu the better it will be as an anchor. Your web browser’s bar(s) don’t change with the web page, and neither should this one.
Full words instead of abbreviations would go a long way to usability too, you aren't short for space “Hero” “Save” “Load” wouldn't take much and would look much nicer. Icons could also work, everyone recognizes a Floppy for save or a Wrench/Gear for Options


Bottom “Help” panel (where information about what your hovering over is displayed) is extraordinarily inconsistent. It changes Size, Shape, Color, Position, Font, and Existence with every single menu.


End of Day Menu:
Finance is a critical component of the game, it seems stuffed away and hidden when it should be the first thing you see.
Put Total Earned, Expenses (Upkeep and Wages), Taxes (if not tax day, then the number of days until tax day) and the Net Earn/Loss as the first thing you see. Some 40 clicks later to see if it was tax day is not good. Keep the separate tax page, its still good to have a more detailed breakdown of that. (that explains the income tax etc.)

Bank: 9142$

Today’s Net Total:  200$
    Gross: 500$
        Whoring: 366$
        Guard: 100$
        Town Job: 34$     
    Expenses: 300$
        Upkeep: 150$
        Wages: 150$

This Week’s Net Total: 450$      (Adds up as the days go and resets after Tax Day)
    Taxes: (5 Days)
        Income:
        Property:

I like the “Next Day” button integration and position into the End of Day menu. However, without the aforementioned change its useless. Right now you can’t tell whether or not you are blundering into financial ruin without clicking to the last events. (even then you need to back out to the main menu to see your gold total) That would be fine if the limit was a single brothel, or just a handful of girls, but the scope that the game is trying to achieve does not allow it to be so.

Also When I was first playing, I hit “Next Day” thinking it would close the summary and start the beginning of the day and close this window. I hit it several times before my search lead me to the artistic “X” button. This Menu could use a more intuitive exit. (Something like an “Accept Report” button to share prominence with the “Next Day”?) To its credit, it IS consistent with the rest of the menus.


Finance:
I was Impressed by the Finance Menu(s). But It shouldn’t be buried in the Brothel or Girl menus. The Finance menu should be its own window with broad finances, that you then use to access specific brothel information or further to girl(s) information (who are in that brothel). Not accessed from the object you wish to examine. (eg find specific girl, click finances, repeat 10-20-...-100 times) This would streamline the Micro management and make it feel like a nicer blend of Macro-Micro. For example, tracking down an under-performing employee is awful when you have many.
This same “Top Down” to finer details approach to more aspects of the game will blend the Macro-micro game that you obviously want to happen. The details are there, stats, inventory, etc… The approach to managing them is way off.


Brothel Management:
Get rid of it as it is. Use the Girl menu layout, Put all of the brothels in (displayed like the girls). Grey-out un-purchased brothels. Functions Identical to Girl menu, click to manage a specific brothel. Give management menus proper menus, not transparent. Bam; two menus merged, usability and macro management increased and consistency increased.


City and Menus:
Actually I like these too, they don’t clash with anything and don’t feel disjointed from the rest of the game. I think a “Leave”, “Back” or “Home” button would be more intuitive than the “X”. When you figure out a consistent help panel I would add that to the scene. It could not only function as help, but also replace the narrative box when needed. (btw what is “MS” stand for?)


Shops are good enough, different “X” that blends in with the border, not a fan. Also it’s one of only 2 scenes that your Top bar disappears, not good.


Other:
The Inventory and Equipment function (for the girls) is much to micromanaged. The need to first transfer the items and then equip them goes too far, and through needless menus. Imagine doing this for ten or twenty girls!? Then remember the scope of your game, you could need to do this for a hundred easily. The most practical solution would be allow the girl access to your inventory when equipping things, then have it transfer automatically when it’s equipped.


If your going to use Wood Texture. You can’t resize wood texture. It doesn’t even match itself if you do. You need a big texture that you cookie-cut the menu out of, not a small one that you stretch the aspect ratio to fit every panel. Find your biggest Panel that uses it, make the texture that size, then don’t stretch to fit in others, instead crop the texture to fit them. Rotate grains of bordering panels perpendicular, parallel or fishboned.


My Biggest Remark
Consistency and Consolidation on their own would go a long way.

The End
I really hope this helps. Criticism (even constructive) of one’s work can really hurt sometimes, (its why we get so defensive) even small ones can create self doubt. I've kinda reamed you guys out in terms of criticism, and I’m sorry about that. Just remember, make what you think it should be, what you would be proud of, I’m just a schmuck who’s too busy fapping to make a game anyway (right?).

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2607 on: April 10, 2014, 01:16:27 AM »
Security: I think one should be able to hire security from girls willing to be a warrior without going through girlsmeet disposition raising. You're paying a salary for a pretty cushy job where the warrior only occasionally has to take on an unruly customer.
There probably should be a difference between strong/famous  and weak/beginner warriors. Famous ones do not need a job that much, so you will need some disposition for a start.

...
We don't have an artist unfortunately. Xela is still hoping that we will have one and then will redone the whole interface.

Offline glorer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2608 on: April 10, 2014, 02:08:48 AM »
If im allowed i will like to throw my two cents at this :p.


I think the at least these stats are a must

Obedience: how likely is for a girl to do what you tell them, this can increase trough specific training for this, events, and a little small amount (something like 0.2 or 0.5) if you put her to work in something she likes.

Loyalty: Obvious :p . This one have nothing to do with any other stat, but can be used for interesting events for ex:
 * A girl with high loyalty and low or even 0 obedience will still tick for you even if the chance to escape (in case of a slave) or non-payment or some event like an organization trying to free all slaves and the like happens.
 * A girl with low loyalty and high obedience will what you told her, but be sure she will kick you on the balls and go away at her first opportunity.
- This stat should be allowed to go down, if in the negatives she will try to sabotage you or event steal sutff from you before running away.
 
Pride: i think this one can be interesting, for ex:
 * A girl with high pride and and high disposition will do what you tell her even if her obedience is low.
 * A girl with high pride and low loyalty will fight you back, but a girl with high pride and high loyalty will try to protect you regardless of her disposition toward you.
This can make this stat an interesting double edged one, for one side you will try to get a girl with high pride for the benefits its bring in combination with other stats, in the other hand "raise" a girl with high pride and not losing it can be a challenge.
- Many thing can make her pride go down, like imprisonment in the dungeon (if implemented), insulting her, making her do something she hates, etc.
- This stat should only go up on rare events.
- A trait like prideful will make the girl always have high pride.

Fear: how scared she is of you,(ill assume a 0 - 100) it have different effects based how much is accumulated
* 0-30 > she is a bit scared of you but otherwise nothing really happens
* 30-70 > she is afraid of you and it shows (+15 obedience on checks, disposition raise slowly [-50%])
* 70-80 > she is is so scared she barely even breath out of fear (+30 obedience on checks, disposition only change negatively)
* 85-90 > she is terrified for real (+35 obedience on checks, disposition always go down on interactions but never below 0 [i assume disposition below 0 she is hating you])
* 90-100 > she wish she was on the other side of the world (+50 obedience checks, disposition always go down on interactions but never below 0, if sanity implemented her SAN will decrease by -2 with every interaction, increase change of running away by 30%)

Sanity: if dungeon exploration with monsters, magic and like will exists, i believe this is necessary.
- if remaining in a below 10 SAN eventually girl can get a trait like mindbroken or insane
- can raise slowly by making a "normal" everyday life or through treatment.
 
Disposition should be a hidden stat
 
 

 Skills
 
I think is better to start with a simple and general list of skills like combat, magic, sex and include a set of empty slots to be filled for ex:
 
 Combat xx/yy
 Magic xx/yy
 Sex xx/yy
-- empty skill --
-- empty skill --
-- empty skill --
-- empty skill --
-- empty skill --

this way some skills can be on the girl from the get go, others can be learned trough training (this will give more life to the academy), or from special npcs, the players is given more freedom on how to personalize the girls, of course the girls will have like, dislikes, and skills they will outright refuse to learn, which can make "raising" the girls more dynamic.



 Girls
 
Give the girls a basic personality, likes, dislikes, hates (things they will never do)



 Gameplay
 
No implement gangs like WM, i personally never liked them, make it so that everything you do is with your girls or with the MC, the only exception should be security, you can make it a service on the slave trade building where you can recruit girls to provide security to your buildings for a fee (these girls are not part of the ones you can manage, and as such no interaction can be made with them unless you find the in town).

Eventually add the ability to choose traits for the MC at the beginning.



 UI

A little thing when you are on the girl character screen and you over traits  the description change at the bottom, make it so that this happen to when the mouse over effects.[/i]

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: General Discussion
« Reply #2609 on: April 10, 2014, 05:15:09 AM »
^These are very decent ideas, however you should be more clear about basic personality. Most of our characters (except random girls) should have a more or less unique personality, so it will be impossible to perfectly code for everyone.
Things like what they like, dislike, hate might depend on traits, but if you want more personal approach, you should give actual example of such a system.