General Discussion

[Xela]

First of all, refuse lines. What is the difference between "if ct" part and "if "X" in chr.traits"? They seem to have the same purpose, yet they use different syntax.

Same, but I think that ct function allows to check for multiple traits and those are not always the refuse lines obviously. ct is simply faster to type.

I'm trying to revise interactions now and I'm seriously thinking about reducing the girlmeets a lot by striping it off most of the options and do the whole thing a bit differently. And part of that would be rewriting the whole file anew, cause it's a total mess right now.


...but lining up out even the first concept to share thoughts with you is giving me headaches...

I know how you feel

And simplifying girlsmeets/interaction and unifying them is needed...

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PS: I've pushed a bit of code yesterday, didn't think it was something worth posting about.

Oki, I'll refrain from modifying the current file then and focus on items for now. I noticed that we don't have lines for all existing traits while I have some ideas for them, but in this case it might be pointless if you will remove whole sections.

We have too many traits... stats making the task even more difficult. I have some ideas but nothing that would really solve the issue. I am also trying to focus on SE module, it's a pain because there are so many things that need to be taken care of to make it work that I get lost in thoughts really quickly

[DarkTl]

Nah, we have 81 traits, less than SimBro btw. There is no way to significantly reduce their number, we could delete maybe 10-15 at best while significantly reduce the diversity for existing and future modules, but if you hope for 20-30 traits then it's impossible.

In simbro many traits have like 1-2 checks AT ALL, and they still serve their purpose well. In our case I'm going to remove stats from many traits as we'll add more meaningful checks and effects, because for now stats is the only way to show somehow that they are working.
Good examples are loner or always hungry. They might have some tiny effect on stats, but they should be scripted with the help of new systems like girls relationships or autobuying system in the first place.
Meanwhile we already can use them for a couple of checks here and there (I already do), and it won't hurt anything.

I have some ideas for pretty much every trait, I mean both interaction lines and code checks. The problem is, as you can see, a lack of a stable framework. I can't even write those interaction lines because the meeting system is not ready for that 

[Xela]

Nah, we have 81 traits, less than SimBro btw. There is no way to significantly reduce their number, we could delete maybe 10-15 at best while significantly reduce the diversity for existing and future modules, but if you hope for 20-30 traits then it's impossible.

In simbro many traits have like 1-2 checks AT ALL, and they still serve their purpose well. In our case I'm going to remove stats from many traits as we'll add more meaningful checks and effects, because for now stats is the only way to show somehow that they are working.
Good examples are loner or always hungry. They might have some tiny effect on stats, but they should be scripted with the help of new systems like girls relationships or autobuying system in the first place.
Meanwhile we already can use them for a couple of checks here and there (I already do), and it won't hurt anything.

I didn't mean decreasing amount of traits, system can be simplified in other ways, like taking AA2 approach (character archetypes + traits only where they make perfect sense) and/or simple clear-cut answers instead of multiple choices sentences that we have no. Our system works, it's just difficult to maintain and if we stick with it, we need to update it a little bit.

I have some ideas for pretty much every trait, I mean both interaction lines and code checks. The problem is, as you can see, a lack of a stable framework. I can't even write those interaction lines because the meeting system is not ready for that 

? Clarify, we have the most advanced meeting system I've seen so far, what isn't ready?

[DarkTl]

Cherry just mentioned that he is going to rework interactions completly, "do the whole thing a bit differently", "cause it's a total mess right now". That's rather major obstacle for adding new lines, if you ask me.

As for multiple checks, I'd say there are cases when they have a lot of sense (artificial body + impersonal = very robotic lines), but of course we shouldn't check every possible combination. Random choice is enough, until we will have a dozen of writers at least 

Moreover, we might use a couple of base_race-based, not trait-based lines to diversify things. After you will load my base races json into the game.

[Xela]

Cherry just mentioned that he is going to rework interactions completly, "do the whole thing a bit differently", "cause it's a total mess right now". That's rather major obstacle for adding new lines, if you ask me.

As for multiple checks, I'd say there are cases when they have a lot of sense (artificial body + impersonal = very robotic lines), but of course we shouldn't check every possible combination. Random choice is enough, until we will have a dozen of writers at least 

Moreover, we might use a couple of base_race-based, not trait-based lines to diversify things. After you will load my base races json into the game.

Right, I see what you meant. Also sometimes occupation gets a primary check, or stats (disposition mostly but also sometimes joy and we should check differences in stats between chr/hero, preferably automatically).

[TitanSon]

xela, darkti .... a little suggestion ^^


if you two guys are almost equaly online .... why dont you use skype or something like that to improve your ideas via voip? .... i thought maybe the idea-exchange would work worlds better this way as you both can explain your ideas much better


greetings titan

[laposteb]

It takes more time it is true, but at least we see the progress of schmilblick 

[Xela]

xela, darkti .... a little suggestion ^^


if you two guys are almost equaly online .... why dont you use skype or something like that to improve your ideas via voip? .... i thought maybe the idea-exchange would work worlds better this way as you both can explain your ideas much better

And in fact we both speak the same native language that isn't English

However your suggestion doesn't pass reality check, take Alkion and Mystic Mirrow as examples, both games had been developed thought communications on Skype, sh!tloads of code has been written for both of them, yet development of both has slowed down to a crawl. WM, SM and PyTFall are developed on forums and are doing fine, we (besides the 3 people dev team) have (recently) Klaus who's helping out a lot with events/writing now and over half a dozen people who contributed in the past, sometimes very significantly.

In reality, Skype chatrooms/conferences degrade down to throwing around insane, massive and impossible to implement (with a small team) ideas/concepts that are discussed for hours to no good end result. We still have a MIRC chatroom if anything needs to be discussed in real time but even that isn't used.

If you look at history of indie non-profit games that were discussed on Skype and look through forums of SlaveMaker/WM/PyTFall/CoC/MiM/HHS, you'll find that forums are by far the more effective way of communication.

[TitanSon]

ok .... only wanted to be a little dirty helper =P

[RandomAnon]

Indeed. IRC+SVN seems to be the best way to work out things from what I've experienced. Or forums could work too, as in this case.

The biggest problem with Skype is that it automatically adds an element of commitment to the conversation. You feel the urge, no need, to talk, and if you don't, the silence becomes eery, especially if one of you can't turn their mics off and you keep hearing all that background noise. Skype is decent for discussions with specific goals- brainstorming, or a variety of preselected topics, etc, but becomes too distracting for anything else.

[DarkTl]

And in fact we both speak the same native language that isn't English .

Yeah, that's rather unusual situation to say at least 

Other means also require online all the time. Even though I have a lot of time to spend on the project, it doesn't mean that I can be online all the time.

[DarkTl]

More items jsons plus a lot of balancing. Also worked a bit on another rg pack to take a break from converting.

I've been thinking about crafting system. I can't really follow Alkion progress anymore, so I don't know how it was implemented there. But we definitely don't have enough items to make it useful, at least yet.

[Xipomus]

Hey guys,

Apollogies about being not here alot. But to be honest i worked 50-60 hours in the ICT, after the only think i could do behind pcs was watch some movies or something other relexing. Just too beat.

I see you still hard at it. I finally have some time off again.
Are there some issues i can help with?

Rendering atm isn't possible, because a friend is using my pc for renders.
After tuesday his project is done, so I can render some images should you need them.

Let me know.

Let

[CherryWood]

I looked at the disposition and this is what I think about it balance-wise:


- Because we are going for a gameplay that should allow a lot of girl working for MC at latter stages of the game, I think that maintaining disposition at neutral values (close to 0) should be almost effortless = remain stable over standard job events unless there are some extraordinary conditions in play (bad or good).
I think that as a dynamic stat that changes a lot in day-to-day business and needs to be look at, "joy" is enough.


- Friendship. I think we could implement a "Friend" status that player or girl can propose by reaching a certain disposition value (or it could just be that value without calling it anything). I propose it to be a one-time investment - MC will need to spend some effort on that particular girl, but after becoming friends, it should remain as that without further management, unless, like with neutral girls, conditions change a lot. That means player could play a good guy and be friend for all his girls, if he really want to. This could work as a check for MC request or events when girls may do something helpful for MC that's not a part of their job.


- Lover- this could start the same, simply proposing a love relationship at certain high disposition value. But, unlike being just friends, this should really require a regular investments of AP or money from MC - it should be a burden to maintain more girls in love with you at the same time and making a true harem could be a challenge that may require some late game stuff to help you.


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Girlmeets:


I know it's kind of late, but I feel that GMs that rely on seducing girls to recruit them for job is just a bad idea. It looks fine at start, but just imagining that you may later want to have, let's say, 50 free girls, and need to go through the same for each of them... no, just no.

SO...for recruiting a new girl, I think we should stay mostly within persuasion only (without all these kisses and such) as requirement to hire a girl.


I'm imagining:
- questions to figure out more about her (her traits, possible profession, class and experience - basics are in gms already)
- persuasion (putting MC charisma and other skills to use together with your business fame/infame, buildings owned...etc)
- plain money offer (you just promise her so much so it will be hard to refuse you)
- threatening/drugging/kidnap whatever if we decide to add some evil routes
And disposition only helping a little with this.


So later when your charisma is overwhelming or your business famous (who wouldn't want to work in a palace?) you should have no problem recruiting common girls at all by just making them the offer (if we assume that all girl you meet are potential workers, like they actually are now) except the most skilled ones (after we make them have various starting lvs) While, at the very beginning, you may be hardly able to recruit anyone (who would want to whore in a shack for some unproven boss?) without going through the raising disposition route like it it's now.

[KingofKings]

I'm sure the others can see what you are getting at Cherry, but that is a lot of work.

The guys would have to recode the entire girlsmeet process to allow for this, and even though it is Alpha and things like this are usually what happen, that is still tough.

For every girl that goes in, they would need to be made so as to line up with the new system, and that will put more work on the girl creators and modders because not only do they have all the work they have now to make them work, but they will need to be able to come up with (Possibly) unique lines and phrases for each outcome. Add to that with the random levels, while somewhat easy to do, will be harder to work because some girls are always weaker than others in their various cannon, so it will require that to be included aswell.

What you are saying is a very sound Idea, and something I'd like to see to, but there is a lot to go on with the game, and lots of work piling up that it may not be feasible for them to implement this into the game, and with every change comes new bugs and crashes.

I for one would enjoy this kind of thing, and maybe if you could expand that idea a bit, and make it more detailed, then it could be better seen and have a higher chance of getting in, because you would have done a fair bit of the hard work, showed it to be a good idea, and then it will be simpler for them to change the coding around.

I am in no way talking on behalf of the makers, nor do I speak for the public in general, but am rather giving some advice to make not only your idea more sound and reducing the stress on Xela and the others, who are busy working their asses of for us all, and probably have missed a few nights of sleep because of it.

Just something to think on.