devolution

Author Topic: General Discussion  (Read 3821763 times)

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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4080 on: November 18, 2014, 08:58:11 AM »
Indeed. Xela, if you want to stop coding and help us with content for some time, you don't need to discuss it first. And if you wonder what else could we need for better quests, I already told it.

livingforever, if you need betatesters, you have at least one.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4081 on: November 18, 2014, 02:12:55 PM »
Indeed. Xela,

*Lemme guess, CW deleted a post again ? :D I missed that one...

if you want to stop coding and help us with content for some time, you don't need to discuss it first. And if you wonder what else could we need for better quests, I already told it.

I've been dieing to put some time into content ever since Thewlis joined the team so there was someone else to take care of coding but then Gismo showed up and started putting insane amount of hours into graphics so most of the time went into improving how the current screens look.

There is also a matter of me having a lot less time to work on the project. You did already tell me what is required for better quests but I've also already replied to it multiple times, but I'll do it yet again:

As much as I'd like to see more content, it requires actual modules to be implemented properly.
I propose to finish tagger, BE (because arena), SE, ST, clones (because it's mostly about balancing and content rather than coding) and MC house (because you need to live somewhere if you don't have a brothel and focusing on arena or SE, as well as girls that help you), and then work on content until we'll be satisfied enough to continue adding modules.

tagger It's be nice to have but if we want to test a new tagging concept, we could simply use the json one and convert to filenames in Ren'Py.

BE (because arena) For the arena? I have doubts that players wish to see a complex BE in the arena (which is mostly grinding). A complex BE may take half an year to build and it is wiser to do so after the real exploration module so we at least know the format. Most reports by players who claimed to play the alpha release for hours wanted faster battles (were using the skip key), not longer once. Every BE, no matter how complex will get old after a few hundreds of fights.

*I've had an idea for a while to use a slight modification for the real arena fights (not mobs grinding or dogfights but for the ladder once). It should be relatively simple to add a simple grid for battlesprites to move about. That would add range as well (difference between magic/bows/melee). Noting new would have to be coded, just a slightly different battle setup and maybe a simple grid to be shown when moving... but even this can wait post next release.

SE, ST, are more or less ready for content (as you've said). Still stuff to do but we can straighten it out, new content may even give the development of the modules a better direction.

clones (because it's mostly about balancing and content rather than coding) They are secondary, not required for anything in the game. There is no reason to work on this before we can wrap up stuff that needs to be done now.

MC house (because you need to live somewhere if you don't have a brothel and focusing on arena or SE, as well as girls that help you). Not needed as well. MC Apartment is already providing 1 AP point per day (which is huge).

and then work on content until we'll be satisfied enough to continue adding modules And there is nothing preventing us to work on it now.
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What I am trying to say, is that it would really pay of for us to focus on SE/ST/Interactions/Hentai Mode/Quests/Events right now. Time temple is awesome too :) but we can go without resurrection for a couple of releases.

=====================================================================
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Some questions I'd really like to know answers to:

1) I've proposed expansion system that should have us covered and should make development simpler. Do we go through with it or not?

2) Do we allow untrained (not broken) slave girls into the gameworld? Doing so would require more checks during actions/quests/events. For examples, I wanted to code a simple action where MC and immediate team mates go swimming (girls on disposition check) to the beach location. It would be a bit awkward having to check if there is a girl on the team that would like to run away at every point during the event where it's possible... we could make a function for but I am not sure about it's gameplay value.

3) Do we all agree with using portraits for emotions during the VN style conversation (by default)?

*There are more questions, but lets start slow. We've discussed all of the above for a bit, now it's a matter of making the decision.
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Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4082 on: November 18, 2014, 04:00:10 PM »
Ok, so I've just coded a simple first version of auto-mood tagging:

Rules:

1) Adding add_mood=False to show method will ensure auto-mood behavior does not occur.
2) Adding any mood tags to show function will ensure auto-mood behavior does not occur.

Auto-mood will work with all lookup types (any, normal, firstdefault), in case no image tagged with a mood can be found, image without one will always be checked.

So far it will only check the joy and return sad, indifferent and happy tags based off that. When we add mood flags to override that, we'll improve the function as well. In any case, proper mood during girlsmeets and profile image is already makes the game more coherent :)

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Edit:
*Just tried playing the game a bit:

- New Day button on 0 AP does not appear (need to check conditions).
- Lesbian pictures do not appear when doing jobs.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 06:12:49 PM by Xela »
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4083 on: November 19, 2014, 03:13:11 AM »
- Lesbian pictures do not appear when doing jobs.
Can you give more details? They're displaying fine for me in both whore job and interactions. (But I only take a quick look)
There was a problem with them, but I thought it's solved by now...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:24:17 AM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4084 on: November 19, 2014, 06:05:52 AM »
*Lemme guess, CW deleted a post again ? :D
Yeah, your hands need to be quick, and your eyes quicker  :)

There is also a matter of me having a lot less time to work on the project. You did already tell me what is required for better quests but I've also already replied to it multiple times, but I'll do it yet again:
Nah, I quoted that post to show that I proposed to set some not too distant goals, code them and then work on content 3 months ago.

As for things that help us with events and quests, I proposed somewhere (but I cannot find this post anymore somehow) to at least adapt all existing quests to our new quest system, ideally make one-two as complex and well-commented as currently possible quests/events.
And then it turns out recently that the frog quest wasn't adapted all this time.  ::)

Most reports by players who claimed to play the alpha release for hours wanted faster battles (were using the skip key), not longer once.
Then we need to make it faster and possibly simplier. It's still just a placeholder currently, even without a concept. We use it only because we have it.

Not needed as well. MC Apartment is already providing 1 AP point per day (which is huge).
But welcomed. Even more than clones, yeah  :)

Time temple is awesome too :) but we can go without resurrection for a couple of releases.
Hm? I figured resurrection is a couple of lines in the code anyway. I just think that it's a good start for making quests.

Do we go through with it or not?
Yup.

Do we allow untrained (not broken) slave girls into the gameworld?
Ok, if everyone is broken, what are you supposed to do during ST? Broken characters should agree to do anything anyway.

Do we all agree with using portraits for emotions during the VN style conversation (by default)?
Yup. Makes things much simplier for characters without 10000+ pictures on pixiv.
 

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4085 on: November 19, 2014, 06:38:36 AM »
Can you give more details? They're displaying fine for me in both whore job and interactions. (But I only take a quick look)
There was a problem with them, but I thought it's solved by now...

Yeah, you're prolly right. I got these:



but I think that the anal thing is because those images are tagged with sex as well (maybe an old version of the pack). The les thing for that random girl is kinda odd actually, she seem to have one les pic... Nami also had a runes picture but auto-mood is likely messing that up. Guess that after investigating a bit, it's not the system.
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Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4086 on: November 19, 2014, 07:16:15 AM »
As for things that help us with events and quests, I proposed somewhere (but I cannot find this post anymore somehow) to at least adapt all existing quests to our new quest system, ideally make one-two as complex and well-commented as currently possible quests/events.
And then it turns out recently that the frog quest wasn't adapted all this time.  ::)

What existing quests? We don't have any quests that I know of...

Then we need to make it faster and possibly simplier. It's still just a placeholder currently, even without a concept. We use it only because we have it.

I can't see why.

Hm? I figured resurrection is a couple of lines in the code anyway. I just think that it's a good start for making quests.

It can be a couple of lines if we don't do all the advanced stuff you talked about (at first).

Yup.

Fair enough, when are we doing this? Because this will chain the need to:

- Adjust all items (they will have to add some form of multipliers to skills)
- Adjust all traits
- Adjust the code

I expect that most of the work above (items/traits) would have to be done by you...

*But this should serve us for a long time without any serious additions. We'll prolly require levels (ranks) for other classes as well (now only prostitute is covered).

Ok, if everyone is broken, what are you supposed to do during ST? Broken characters should agree to do anything anyway.

Break them. I meant blocking having an option to add am unbroken character to the team or have one do a job in a brothel. The proposal is to isolate them to prison, NPC (training under Blue for example) and training dungeon.

Yup. Makes things much simplier for characters without 10000+ pictures on pixiv.

We'll still need to specify the moods on other pics... it sucks when you get a profile picture of a girl with 100 joy crying or ecstatic pic of a girl with 0.
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Offline livingforever

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4087 on: November 19, 2014, 07:54:02 AM »
Hi!
Most reports by players who claimed to play the alpha release for hours wanted faster battles (were using the skip key), not longer once.
You're confusing propositions for new combat systems with criticism on the old.
People want the old (current) system to be faster, but that doesn't mean that they want faster battles in general. The reason the current fights take too long is because essentially nothing happens. Click one of two skills, click one of one (duh) enemies, wait for the animation to finish, repeat. No gameplay value whatsoever.

By introducing a more complex system, you're adding more gameplay value to the fights, therefore it is absolutely no problem if those take a little longer.

We'll still need to specify the moods on other pics... it sucks when you get a profile picture of a girl with 100 joy crying or ecstatic pic of a girl with 0.
Please be careful with automatically applied mood tags. If you overuse it, you're punishing players that keep their girls' mood high by reducing the amount of images they get to see.
Have fun!

Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4088 on: November 19, 2014, 07:58:04 AM »
What existing quests? We don't have any quests that I know of...
I'm not sure if you are joking or not.

I can't see why.
Why not? BE should be interesting, while people complain that battles are too long (they are too long and repetitive if you fight a lot).

Fair enough, when are we doing this?
Now? Would be a good opportunity to improve items system too. Items/traits are not a problem.

The proposal is to isolate them to prison, NPC (training under Blue for example) and training dungeon.
I'll think about it, don't have time now.

Offline CherryWood

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4089 on: November 19, 2014, 08:31:02 AM »
 
Yeah, you're prolly right. I got these:



but I think that the anal thing is because those images are tagged with sex as well (maybe an old version of the pack). The les thing for that random girl is kinda odd actually, she seem to have one les pic... Nami also had a runes picture but auto-mood is likely messing that up. Guess that after investigating a bit, it's not the system.
I don't have One Piece pack in my game so I can't tell about Nami, but that random elf girl doesn't have it's one "les" pic shown because that image also have "group" tag in it and those are currently excluded from whore job - so you got a random profile pic instead.
(excluding "bdsm" "mast" and "group" is not very good, I hope we will find a better way how to tag those so we can remove that)
------------
BE: for arena I'm satisfied with the current setup (but I would also welcome faster combat), though it would be nice to have a few skill other then just damage. But that's probably too much work too...

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We'll still need to specify the moods on other pics... it sucks when you get a profile picture of a girl with 100 joy crying or ecstatic pic of a girl with 0.
Do you think we will need a mood portraits for MC too?
I guess it would be good, but there's not that many guys who have battle sprite, combat image and lot of expressions together I know of, so we may end with a smaller selection for a while and with generally more know characters as MCs.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:45:19 AM by CherryWood »

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4090 on: November 19, 2014, 09:39:18 AM »
I'm not sure if you are joking or not.

Not.

Why not? BE should be interesting, while people complain that battles are too long (they are too long and repetitive if you fight a lot).

I couldn't quite follow.

Now? Would be a good opportunity to improve items system too. Items/traits are not a problem.

Improve how? Now it is then... will take a good deal of work I expect.

I don't have One Piece pack in my game so I can't tell about Nami, but that random elf girl doesn't have it's one "les" pic shown because that image also have "group" tag in it and those are currently excluded from whore job - so you got a random profile pic instead.
(excluding "bdsm" "mast" and "group" is not very good, I hope we will find a better way how to tag those so we can remove that)

Yeah, we'll talk about that when we discuss the new tagging concept as well.

For now, I've removed auto-mood from all calls to show pics that do not have "profile" in them. We'll fix the calls for show on the review and accounting for auto-mood, I'll restore/improve it then.

BE: for arena I'm satisfied with the current setup (but I would also welcome faster combat), though it would be nice to have a few skill other then just damage. But that's probably too much work too...

I'll see about adding a couple new skills, maybe even through quests...

-----------Do you think we will need a mood portraits for MC too?
I guess it would be good, but there's not that many guys who have battle sprite, combat image and lot of expressions together I know of, so we may end with a smaller selection for a while and with generally more know characters as MCs.

Not right now... one thing at a time.

========
I am going to take a look at the code and think of the best way to handle skills...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:40:49 AM by Xela »
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4091 on: November 19, 2014, 12:39:31 PM »
Do you mean that things like that frog event are not quests? I don't know, it looks very similar to quest in my opinion.

I don't want to persuade you to work on BE because I don't have a decent concept for it yet. You may continue to enjoy bad feedbacks about it  :)

I recall some kind of issues with tracking stats or traits, don't remember. Somehow I cannot find some old posts, not even mine. But you said it, not me.
Also we have specific items for slave training now, I don't know what to do about them. Thewlis wanted to make them miscs, but it is impossible currently.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4092 on: November 19, 2014, 01:08:00 PM »
Do you mean that things like that frog event are not quests? I don't know, it looks very similar to quest in my opinion.

I meant that it's the only one that we have... there is nothing else that we can turn into a quest as you suggested.

I don't want to persuade you to work on BE because I don't have a decent concept for it yet. You may continue to enjoy bad feedbacks about it  :)

Critics... :D

I recall some kind of issues with tracking stats or traits, don't remember. Somehow I cannot find some old posts, not even mine. But you said it, not me.
Also we have specific items for slave training now, I don't know what to do about them. Thewlis wanted to make them miscs, but it is impossible currently.

They just add traits I believe, these traits are then checked for during the slave training. I don't remember what was wrong with items (if anything at all) either.

We'll obviously have to add modifiers to skills... we just need to figure out how we want these modifiers to work.
========================================

I think that I know how I'd like to handle the skills logically now... going to write some pseudo code and see how it works.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4093 on: November 19, 2014, 01:39:57 PM »
I meant blocking having an option to add am unbroken character to the team or have one do a job in a brothel. The proposal is to isolate them to prison, NPC (training under Blue for example) and training dungeon.
Generaly speaking, attitude to slavery may be different for different social groups, even among slaves. If we make the attitude a part of ST too, like in SM3 and JoNT, then slaves that don't want to escape (even though they can) cannot be considered as "unbroken" anyway.
I mean, not every slave should want to escape even without professional training. And such slaves cannot be called truly "unbroken" if it will be a simple boolean flag.

So maybe characters with weak will and low character stat could be considered as broken even without training (it doesn't make them good slaves, of course). In this case we might as well remove unbroken ones from the city, because it is illogical and stupid to not restrict them somehow.
Another option is to use scripted shackles that cannot be removed from inventory slots and prevent running away outside of dungeon.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #4094 on: November 19, 2014, 02:00:53 PM »
...

What I am trying is to prevent endless "if forks" in simple events/quests to account for every possible behavior. That's why I want certain things to be contained in related modules. Shackles is a decent idea that I didn't consider but I don't want a simple beach event to turn into checking if a girl is shackled or not either (for example).

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