General Discussion

[DarkTl]

should i make stockings above the knee like original or a sock below the knee ?

I think it should be above the knee. I've seen a lot of nnja pictures, and most of them have it above.

[DarkTl]

Hm, I don't understand the meaning of higher_tiers system, especially since characters can start with two subclasses and without classes.

[lamoli]

https://mon-partage.fr/f/IQOaMHBt/


Something like this ?

[DarkTl]

Yup, looks perfect.

[Xela]

Hm, I don't understand the meaning of higher_tiers system, especially since characters can start with two subclasses and without classes.

Well, they are used to narrow options for the remaining four sub-traits! So not every girl will agree to work as whatever the feck

If you add two subclasses at start that field will be VERY narrow, for example:

*[Stripper]
*[Waitress]

[Sleasy Waitress]
[]

She we will be a very good waitress, very good stripper and agree wholeheartedly to Sleasy Waitress job (+ other corresponding jobs) but not to much anything else... it's a tradeoff, Sub-Class traits should be VERY precise in their bonuses and corresponding jobs, Classes less so (in skills/stats) and enable Sub-Classes to unlock more jobs and etc.

I am going to work on Mobs, Skills and maybe Jobs tonight so I'll be around the forum and chatroom in about an hour if you have questions. I am still not sure how to bind this system to Jobs properly and how to handle certain things like auto-equipment when we add loads more jobs and buildings... I'd prefer a system that allows expansion with minimum effort.

[lamoli]

Dark can you please make a selection of outfits there..


http://armachamcorp.deviantart.com/gallery/


as it takes times to adapt them i need the most important ones first..
also there might be good examples of armor parts ( hard to find those ) could be useful for fighters..


its all taken from games.. so i would have to rebuild em to use em but thats fine as long as i have the base model as reference


http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/?q=armor+3d&offset=0 ( and check all of em )

[DarkTl]

Dark can you please make a selection of outfits there..

Ok. That will take some time, I'll do it tomorrow.

[DarkTl]

I am going to work on Mobs, Skills and maybe Jobs tonight so I'll be around the forum and chatroom in about an hour if you have questions. I am still not sure how to bind this system to Jobs properly and how to handle certain things like auto-equipment when we add loads more jobs and buildings... I'd prefer a system that allows expansion with minimum effort.

No more questions yet... I caught a cold, so I'm going to bed early today.

I suppose auto equipment system could be based on classes traits only. And in case if only subclasses are permanent, well, they do have high tier classes anyway.
If we use too many values as a base for AE system, it will become too complex and unfocused.

[Xela]

Decent models... I still think this can make good random packs but mixing 3D render with drawings will prolly look awkward, well live and see.

Something came up so I will start late again tonight, gonna try and do the mobs first.

I suppose auto equipment system could be based on classes traits only. And in case if only subclasses are permanent, well, they do have high tier classes anyway.
If we use too many values as a base for AE system, it will become too complex and unfocused.

Well, it can't be based on class traits or at least only partly be based on them. Only the one or two initial traits are permanent, they can be both sub and class. Auto-Equipment system needs to be job oriented... so we'll prolly have to either create a sub-trait for every job and draw from that or create a list of corresponding stats and skills for every job. Prolly the latter or maybe even a  combination of two.

[Xela]

Oki, so I just managed the loading mobs function tonight... Arena and almost everything else Mobs related is broken, I just rigged BE Testing label to check out if function is working.

Judging by how different types of mobs are looking in BE we'll prolly need some rules for BE pics in the future, but for now it's just testing.

[DarkTl]

Auto-Equipment system needs to be job oriented... so we'll prolly have to either create a sub-trait for every job and draw from that or create a list of corresponding stats and skills for every job. Prolly the latter or maybe even a  combination of two.

Are you sure about it? Classes show character's main profession already. Just because you can set them to another job and even obtain new subclasses, main profession won't change. AE is not obliged to be perfectly logical, just like auto buying system.
Example: that maid from touhou is something like an assassin. But her main profession is maid, thus the's wearing maid clothes only.

[lamoli]

Decent models... I still think this can make good random packs but mixing 3D render with drawings will prolly look awkward, well live and see.

Well lots if not all recent anime are full 3D and you cant see the difference but i do agree on the fact that to get closer to artists drawings i would require more work so my renders looks like 2D ( im not even at the anime lvl atm ) but they do it so its possible..


Iv already spend a lot of time on my renders so they look more like 2d than 3d but there is room for improvements.. maybe i should focus now on rendering a girl on a existing 2D background and make her not look awkward.

[Xela]

Well lots if not all recent anime are full 3D and you cant see the difference but i do agree on the fact that to get closer to artists drawings i would require more work so my renders looks like 2D ( im not even at the anime lvl atm ) but they do it so its possible..

I'd need a VERY reliable source to even start buying this. Almost all recent Anime character sprites are hand-drawn (their expressions, movement and etc.). Some is hand-drawn on digital medium, other still on paper. They do use computers to combine animations, add lightning, shadows, integrate them into backgrounds properly but the sprites are almost always hand-drawn. 3D animation where sprites are modeled and created in 3D is mostly US based, japan is nowhere near catching up to that, but they do not really look 2D either.

It's a misunderstanding... almost all of the modern anime is computer animated so people immediately jump to conclusions that everything is done using computers. Stuff that was created in 3D from the start is quite obvious in Anime series, some do it partly, like for cars and tech (and STILL draw the character sprites btw ). Backgrounds are sometimes rendered in 3D and flattened but even that is usually done in anime movies, drawing comes out cheaper due to outsourcing.

Actually if you know a single anime series where character have obvious 2D look but were 3D rendered from the start, I'd like to check them out, if not to watch (due to lack of time) but just to see what that looks like. *With a reliable source confirming that sprites were 3D at some point...

Are you sure about it?

No, that just made sense to me Just feels like auto-equip should be job/task oriented...

[lamoli]

Alright maybe they integrate drawn characters into the 3D rendered BG but theres the lighting effect cast on those character as well.. but why bother drawing by hand if all can be done in 3D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiR7KYIQv9U


Of course that sample could be improved to look even more like the original..


My goal here is not to make anime.. its to find a good integration of 3d renders into 2D BG and if its not working well ill render the BG in 3D but need a lot of practice to make it look 2D like..


Since im not good at 2D drawing and artists only make only a few drawings of a specific girl.. the only way to get everything ( poses/outfits/expressions ) is to transform that character in 3D so proportions stays the same in any pose/angle that way we get all we need.. and if you want even better just rework my render with a program like Photoshop/Gimp and edit it like a real 2D artist.. but most of the job would be done by the 3D render..

[Xela]

Alright maybe they integrate drawn characters into the 3D rendered BG but theres the lighting effect cast on those character as well..

Backgrounds are rarely 3D as well. Also lighting effect is not rendered using 3D shaders, more often than not, hue/colormatrix is adjusted by the software. It looks a lot better and is quicker to make. This is something I learned when researching 2D/Pseudo-3D options for Exploration Engine, people with years of experience all seem to say one thing: in 2D/Pseudo-3D NEVER use 3D shaders, you'll simply sabotage your own efforts, even if your engine supports it (which Ren'Py atm does not).

but why bother drawing by hand if all can be done in 3D

The most obvious reason is that they are used to their current way, it's like a factory that a lot of different companies are using. Upgrading it is too costly and many of the people involved would have to be reeducated. It's like IRS... they collect trillions (actual trillions, not billions) in taxes but are still using Magnetic Tapes to store data (I think those predate floppy drives ).

But I am not convinced anime sprites quality like SOA or Naruto can be 3D rendered and covered to 2D at the same cost/time... I've never heard or seen anything of the sort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiR7KYIQv9U


Of course that sample could be improved to look even more like the original..

It's not bad but it's a farcry from the original + CCS is not really a good example of modern Anime...

My goal here is not to make anime.. its to find a good integration of 3d renders into 2D BG and if its not working well ill render the BG in 3D but need a lot of practice to make it look 2D like..

Yeap, it a good goal, I never said otherwise... it's your statement about how Anime was made is the reason I started this conversation

Since im not good at 2D drawing and artists only make only a few drawings of a specific girl.. the only way to get everything ( poses/outfits/expressions ) is to transform that character in 3D so proportions stays the same in any pose/angle that way we get all we need.. and if you want even better just rework my render with a program like Photoshop/Gimp and edit it like a real 2D artist.. but most of the job would be done by the 3D render..

Yeap, I am also very curios how much of this can be made in a "factory" format (where you can just load the new sprites with few adjustments instead of doing a lot of work for every single render)... This opens a lot of possibilities like Equipment Dolls and/or Exploration Sprites. We don't have the time or manpower for that right now but in the future, when the game is advanced enough, we can revive the subject or even make a different game

For now if we get a couple of decent Random Packs out of it, it'll be super!