devolution

Author Topic: General Discussion  (Read 3821381 times)

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Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5340 on: July 30, 2015, 12:12:33 PM »
Code: [Select]
call mc_setup
?
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5341 on: July 30, 2015, 12:30:53 PM »
Yeah, I forgot it, it's been awhile since I looked at the screen :)

Since you cannot change main classes, I propose:
- One mandatory battle class. We make sure MC can protect himself, and will not need additional scenarios for helpless ones.
- One mandatory non-battle class to be more useful than just a warrior. I will create separate classes for MC only, he can't really be a Prostitute :D

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5342 on: July 30, 2015, 12:36:18 PM »
No restrictions, pure manager mc should also be allowed as well as a pure warrior one.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5343 on: July 30, 2015, 12:37:33 PM »
It restricts story. Pure manager cannot fight.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5344 on: July 30, 2015, 12:45:44 PM »
It restricts story. Pure manager cannot fight.

He'll be allowed a different story than. For now just roll with whatever you see fit but  will not put any restrictions in code. Obviously if there is not going to be a way pick an MC without a combat class, it's a restriction, but it will be there until we have enough content to add more options.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5345 on: July 30, 2015, 12:55:04 PM »
Not to mention that "manager" is a poor base for a decent description or not boring prehistory...

No battle class means that we cannot put MC in danger ever. Well, as long as he doesn't have a bodyguard ie warrior class girl that will fight instead. I cannot make a story without mandatory bodyguard or mandatory battle class, it means at least two ways to resolve conflict every single time, or even at least two different stories. Good luck with third party writers  ::)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:33:30 PM by DarkTl »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5346 on: July 31, 2015, 02:03:35 AM »
Existing classes:

Main: Prostitute
Sub: Anal, Oral, Stright, Mistress, Group

Main: Entertainer
Sub: Dancer, Stripper

Main: Maid
Sub: Cleaner, Waitress, Bartender,

Main: Manager
No subs

Main: Mage
Sub: Battle Mage, Healer

Main: Warrior
Sub: Defender, Shooter, Assassin

What does it mean:
- Allowing male MC to be a Maid, a Dancer or a Prostitute is very, very dubious decision. Not female maybe, but it's another question.
- At the current MC setup screen there is place for 4 main branches (I mean those major choices, merchant/warrior/mage/some another icon that looks like manager  :) ). If you want ANY girls class to be freely available (and that's already 6 branches, and will be more), we require another screen. I figured you want to keep the current one. Thus again ANY girl class is not an option.

- Unless you want MC to be oral prostitute, there are only 3 branches that we can use for him: Warrior, Mage, Manager. And manager is a poorly developed one, since we don't really have any means to develop it better. Management skill alone is not enough for this.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5347 on: July 31, 2015, 02:17:53 AM »
Existing classes:

Main: Prostitute
Sub: Anal, Oral, Stright, Mistress, Group

Main: Entertainer
Sub: Dancer, Stripper

Main: Maid
Sub: Cleaner, Waitress, Bartender,

Main: Manager
No subs

Main: Mage
Sub: Battle Mage, Healer

Main: Warrior
Sub: Defender, Shooter, Assassin

Thanks, we should maintain lists like these somewhere like a wiki on the Hub, this is very useful.

What does it mean:
- Allowing male MC to be a Maid, a Dancer or a Prostitute is very, very dubious decision. Not female maybe, but it's another question.
- At the current MC setup screen there is place for 4 main branches (I mean those major choices, merchant/warrior/mage/some another icon that looks like manager  :) ).

I'll have to take a look at these classes to see if they can be meaningful, but you're prolly right.

If you want ANY girls class to be freely available (and that's already 6 branches, and will be more), we require another screen. I figured you want to keep the current one. Thus again ANY girl class is not an option.

- Unless you want MC to be oral prostitute, there are only 3 branches that we can use for him: Warrior, Mage, Manager. And manager is a poorly developed one, since we don't really have any means to develop it better. Management skill alone is not enough for this.

1) Possibly most important point, at no point of the development do I wish for the player to pick classes freely. Choices should be back-stories that have hints to what can be expected from the MC.

2) These choices should be supplemented by starting bonuses/maluses such as:
- Money
- Items
- Direct, none class related bonuses to stats and skills
- Existing relationships
- Events
- etc. and moar as we develop the game.

3) Manager class will be absurdly important very soon.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5348 on: July 31, 2015, 02:59:07 AM »
- Oral prostitute MC == 100% free class selection. It's not like I have anything against it, I just will never ever select it, and most players probably too. Cause MC is kinda player's avatar in the game world, and who wants to be a MALE anal prostitute instead of assassin? (not female though  :D )
I suppose there are people who want to, but not many.  Thus any time we spend on obviously super unpopular choices will be wasted.

- Basically, casanova male = prostitute female. But it still means that MC cannot use prostitute classes and needs his own classes.

- Just because you cannot select something as a main class in the beginning doesn't mean that you cannot obtain it later as a secondary class.

- I cannot imagine meaningful subclasses for manager, no matter how important he will be. I suppose we can go to sex manager/service manager stuff, but to me it looks like artificial sophistication with no real need.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 03:02:34 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5349 on: July 31, 2015, 04:19:05 AM »
- Oral prostitute MC == 100% free class selection. It's not like I have anything against it, I just will never ever select it, and most players probably too. Cause MC is kinda player's avatar in the game world, and who wants to be a MALE anal prostitute instead of assassin? (not female though  :D )
I suppose there are people who want to, but not many.  Thus any time we spend on obviously super unpopular choices will be wasted.

Do not waste time. Don't bother with these cases yet, just leave them completely out. They will make more sense later but we do not have time and resources to bother with it atm.

- Basically, casanova male = prostitute female. But it still means that MC cannot use prostitute classes and needs his own classes.

Partly, I figure Casanova should get insane charisma bonus, not as much sexual once.

- Just because you cannot select something as a main class in the beginning doesn't mean that you cannot obtain it later as a secondary class.

I cannot say how this should function, a lot is dependent on if we allow MC to participate in game world in the same capacity as any other character (as in do any job), we do not have enough content to make it happen atm anyway. So I am not even sure how MC is supposed to gain extra classes, I don't recall there being items that do that and those would be some weird items...

- I cannot imagine meaningful subclasses for manager, no matter how important he will be. I suppose we can go to sex manager/service manager stuff, but to me it looks like artificial sophistication with no real need.

That's my fault, I never explained where I wanted to take the manager as a concept, mostly because I've only recently figured that out myself (more or less):

Managers are either absent or have a somewhat limited role in most similar games, without having a lot of effects on mechanics. However in RL most business would go to hell without decent management while other would flourish with it. It's a vastly neglected topic.

We will be splitting management duties in three parts:

1) Efficiency.
This is prolly the simplest one to understand. If you looked at the proof of concept I've added to the game, it always says stuff like:

Code: [Select]
Client 1 came into Building at 0.
...
...

These are discrete time units. With the maximum of 100 for any business (would be practically impossible to reach) and a minimum of 20. Or at least this is what I am rolling with currently. Efficiency managers will be increasing these units, other options to increase the units will be Upgrades (more limited). This will prolly be adjusted with more jobs, better loops and moar testing.

2) Characters management
This is what matron basically does in WM. Making sure that worker are happy... most powerful thing, except for joy/stat/skills bonuses that I can imagine here is maybe giving the characters an extra AP or two...

3) Client management
This makes sure clients that came and did could not immediately be offered service, would wait or be redirected elsewhere (if a building has a bar, club or something similar). I am obviously planning to stray from former "almost infinite clients" policy because our previous jobs loop was somehow both, primitive and harder to manage that what I am working with atm.

====
Under new code, the whole thing will be guided by SimPy, to manage something like this under our old loop would be close to impossible (due to insane amount of flags and variable because it never used generators and there never was a real workflow). As you can imagine, not every job will deal with clients, some will require more characters managements. I am not sure if we need different skills or just different manager classes paired with checks of a class and management skill but I think this system has potential... we will not know until it actually works, I am hoping to put some good time into it tonight and tomorrow morning.
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5350 on: July 31, 2015, 05:10:23 AM »
The current mc setup screen is not meant to work with class traits. It changes stats directly, I think. And even though some options suggest additional items, there are no real examples of how it should work, ie how we give those (sometimes random) items to MC.

I seriously propose bodyguard system for cases when MC is not a warrior or a mage. Otherwise all stories and quests will be peaceful, boring and predictable because it forces us to never attack him.

Offline Xela

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5351 on: July 31, 2015, 05:23:00 AM »
The current mc setup screen is not meant to work with class traits. It changes stats directly, I think. And even though some options suggest additional items, there are no real examples of how it should work, ie how we give those (sometimes random) items to MC.

You're right, it's not even with stats, there is no system in place period. Partly because Gismo created the interface in the same manner as the Fighters Guild, not to serve existing logic but to sere his own idea/concept of expansion of the said logic.

In case of MC screen however... there was no logic to model that on for Gismo or for me as that preceded the modern base-traits system.

I think we should do that in an extensive series of labels, each choice of the back-story/personal-story is mapped to a specific (sometimes reusable label). After Start Button is pressed, the said label is called. We can even place some images and expanded versions of the story and/or more advanced logic to allow choosing items/friends (for example).

I seriously propose bodyguard system for cases when MC is not a warrior or a mage. Otherwise all stories and quests will be peaceful, boring and predictable because it forces us to never attack him.

We'll have something like that, yes.
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Offline Baltazaar

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5352 on: July 31, 2015, 05:47:17 AM »
Just an idea:

How about letting the player earn classes, perks and mali?

That way, you enhance the replay factor mightily.

here is how I would handle it.

I would say, the skill gain could be taken from Call of cthulu. You start out with a certain percentage in each skill, based on your attributes, and can increase it, but you never sink under what you can do with your attributes.

Thus, lets say, if the average joe MC player starts fresh, he would have strength 10, dexterity 10, constitution 10, and athleticism , which is (strength + dexterity + constitution/3) 10.

Now, I would say, as an example, he wants to train for the perk "athletic" ( gives the char a bonus to athletic actions).

He goes to the selection window, selects train for "athletic", and then just enjoys. This way, his athleticism will not lower, because he actively trains for it.

On the mechanical side, athleticism is added to his to train skills. Thus, if he does something that would let him use athletics ( lets say, help with deliveries), every time he does that, he gets a possibility to raise that.

It could ( remember, I am only a writer, so all I spoew is possibilities)  work like this:

Roll 1 d 100, and if you get over your current number, you get +0.1 to that skill.

Now, the same could be used to train for a feat. Athletics, for example, could say , every 5 trainings of athleticism, while having the skill over 25, roill 1d100 and try to come over ( traitvalue). If you do, you get the trait / feat/wossname.

Now, classes I would definie as allmost jobs, so you can use the same mechanics on girls.

Each class has a prequisite, so you can have player only classes ( lets say, baseball fan), and you can have Girls only classes ( pig-pet), just by allowing the class to check for the prequisite IsPlayer or IsGirl

Now, on to greener pastures.

I would ammend the classes with one variable, Time served as, that I would add as an incremental, invisible trait. Just so you can check for this, and go, ok, if you worked for a year as a guard, you can join the military.

If you now want to train for a class, select the class from the droip down menu that shows you all the classes you qualify for with your current stats.
If your class is not there, train more.

Now, as sooin as you select a class, you begin to train for this class. The required skills, attributes, and so forth are added to your "to train list", and you can now train the required skills a bit fater, and they do not degrade. Each other skill, that is not part of the class, can degrade, and is trainable a bit slower.

The rate of degradation / bonus training I would set in relevance to the number of skills that get trained at the same time. So, lets say you are training for the perk, athleticism and want to train as a guardsman.

Guardsman adds strength,m dexterity, coinstitution, intelligence, melee and paperwork to the to train list, athleticism adds athletics. seven things to train at the same time, should only be fair if you level up the individual skills slower then if you had a class that only added, lets say, strength.

I would say, for X skills, each skill progresses at (1/x) times the speed, seems fair. So, if you use the skill athletics, because you are still helping carry the mail in your offtime, the skill would train every 7 times you trained the skill. Of course, there is also the handy option to just do the CLASS JOB, which automatically trains all associated skills every time you do it.

benefits:

- open ended. If a class is defined as a collection of skills, that have to be at various levels before you can enter ( and maybe a few feats), creating new classes is easy and can be done in a pinch.

- girls and the MC can use the same system.

- checking the prequisites allows you to call the same class different things. For a male, it would be escort, just as for the woman, but you could also implement that the class buttler, if selected for a girl, is called maid.

- many funs.

drawbacks:

- most likely lots of work

- definition problems.

- classes would have to be added via packs. not neccesarily a bad idea, but could be worked.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5353 on: July 31, 2015, 06:24:22 AM »
I'm not sure about degradation part, it might quickly become irritating if balanced poorly.
But as a system developed to gain new (secondary) classes for MC and characters, it's a great idea.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: General Discussion
« Reply #5354 on: July 31, 2015, 06:36:36 AM »
My vacation starts from tomorrow. That means I'll have even more free time than usual for the next month  :)
I'm going to make a main story, we have enough ideas and texts now. It WILL be based on the fact that MC can defend himself, either via battle class or with the help of his battle party.

As for MC screen, even if we'll use labels, to make it work I will need to know:
- how to give MC main classes. I suppose it should be different from just adding traits.
- how to give him items AND equip them right after that when needed without access to gui
- how to add a character to MC's battle party without access to gui