General Discussion

[Xela]

Oki.

This one is yours: https://github.com/XelaPy/PyTFall/issues/109

[DarkTl]

My bad. I figured battle stats work like skills, ie with no limits.

[Xela]

My bad. I figured battle stats work like skills, ie with no limits.

That is the main purpose of base traits, they are the only thing in the game that can change lvl_max except for scripted events.

Edit: If I knew you could just change -5 to -2, I'd done it myself, I thought more redesigning would be required for cases like Warrior/Mage/Battle Mage and etc.

[DarkTl]

Do you think there will be new fields in chars data files before the next release?

[Xela]

In unique chars, it's not likely but I can't say that with certainty.

===
Did you check your latest traits designs? Large Boobs and above are like a damnation for forcing agility to 0... until much higher levels. That doesn't seem right.

I've forced the minimum max levels to 10 to see what's that is gonna feel like and fixed an important bug where stats were forced down by negative maximums, out system has gotten really, really complicated

I've asked to try not to make traits that push max below 0 but that seems too difficult to avoid even with one trait, forget possible combinations of several, hopefully this new update will work around all of it.

===
Still, -100 max agility penalty for Abnormally Large Boobs is freaking insane, at best it should be something like -15...

[DarkTl]

Well, if you imagine large boobs (not just big ones), it's a perfectly legit thing for them to destroy agility.

If I'll use mod field, it could be easily offsetted by training. That's not how it should work, boobs are still there, they should prevent characters from having the same agility as flat chars no matter how hard they train, unless there is a major gap in levels.

[Xela]

Depends on the source... but still, -100 mod is a powerful tool against agility growing too fast, -100 max is something that f*cks the character up needlessly. I would not call any of the chars like Tsunade/Rangiku particularly slow and most definitely not describe them as having their agility destroyed.

It should not be that extreme, I would have not added any kind of penalty at all and maybe added a separate trait that is blocked by smaller boob sizes.

[Xela]

If I'll use mod field, it could be easily overcame by training. That's not how it should work, boobs are still there, they should prevent characters from having the same agility as flat chars no matter how hard they train, unless there is a major gap in levels.

I think that you're over-applying rl logic to the game...

[DarkTl]

You know, it's very hard for me to imagine -100 mod since it works in percentages every 5 or 10 levels, I don't even remember. I'd rather have mod working by level, ie mod -10 means -10 per level.

[Xela]

You know, it's very hard for me to imagine -100 mod since it works in percentages every 5 or 10 levels, I don't even remember. I'd rather have mod working by level, ie mod -10 means -10 per level.

No idea... it should not be too difficult to change, I have not looked at the stats/traits code before today for a long time. Gismo and I just notices frecked up gui bars/characters.

But:

Regardless of what we do, permanent, not occupational traits should no carry any form of extreme effects with them. I recall that we've already discussed it and agreed that these even if these traits are to have effects, those should be mild (like very mild).

You are destroying canon characters by applying RL logic to them, all of them, at once. It will give an off feeling to gameplay and to personal favorites and the worst thing is that there is no f*cking way to remove these traits...

Edit:
For puns and canon chars that suffer from boob size, special trait can be created, maybe even a unique one for that special char. But that should not be game wide, it is a really, really bad idea to try and apply this type of logic to a game.

[DarkTl]

This is because we apply all max fields immediately, unlike mod fields. If we'll have a field that will change max with every level (like our base traits do), there won't be need in huge max penalties or bonuses.
I'll create an issue for this.

[Xela]

Ok, that should not be too difficult to do.

But still:

Body/Boobs/Personality/Race == No significant mods. These should be markers for in game checks, not deciding traits. Characters are too different and world is too advanced in order to apply rl logic. By the same thought pattern large body types should be stringer than small body types, these concepts are too foreign and incomplete for PyTFall. If such things have to be reflected, other traits must carry them, not the once that are fixed for a char. Occupation can be changed in data file by any player, these traits cannot be changed due to a fixed picture base.

[DarkTl]

You do know that currently clicking on any item in inventory at MC personal screen crashes the game, right?

  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 77, in script
    python:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 83, in <module>
    result = ui.interact()
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 253, in execute
    screen pyt_char_equip():
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 449, in execute
    vbox:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 451, in execute
    fixed:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 454, in execute
    vbox:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 474, in execute
    frame:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 485, in execute
    if dummy:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 487, in execute
    vbox:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 492, in execute
    viewport:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 494, in execute
    has vbox
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 496, in execute
    python:
  File "game/library/items/pyt - screens - chars equipment.rpy", line 498, in <module>
    for effect in eqtarget.effects:
  File "game/library/characters/classes - characters.rpy", line 1106, in __getattr__
    raise AttributeError(msg % (key, self.__class__.__name__))
AttributeError: 'effects' is neither a gamestat nor an attribute of Player

[Xela]

You do know that currently clicking on any item in inventory at MC personal screen crashes the game, right?

No m8, I had no idea. The last bit of the code was fairly complicated and I was just happy that it worked with normal chars It never occurred to me to test it with the MC before pushing.

It's just one extra check that I expected to be extended to MC automatically. I'll fix it for now and traits/effects for MC would have to wait their review time. I wanna take it easy and clear a couple of simpler issues tonight.

[Xela]

This is because we apply all max fields immediately, unlike mod fields. If we'll have a field that will change max with every level (like our base traits do), there won't be need in huge max penalties or bonuses.
I'll create an issue for this.

I have serious problems with this issue...

1) Basetraits need to be special, adding similar logic to traits makes them less so.

2) Basetraits are supposed to decide most stats effects for the characters, normal traits are supposed to be for checks, behavior, responses and little stats support.

3)

Currently mod field works in a very strange way, applying 1/10 of it's value every 5 or 10 levels, iirc. This is very confusing without a reason, it's hard to imagine how it will work at a certain level.

The idea is that a lvl 100 character should get a full bonus from the trait, lvl 200 char gets 2x the bonus and etc. What is confusing?

This was not a feature or an update to the system, I've wrote that code to mitigate the effect where traits applied at level 0 maxed out every stat. The idea was not to change the system or for you to update anything at all, old values were perfectly fine, they were simply supposed to apply 100% of the full effect at level 50 and keep working the further you got into the game so this:

Code: [Select]

<trait
id="Abnormally Large Boobs"
desc="Those things are like miniature moons..."
temp='0'>

<mod charisma = '20' />
<max charisma = '20' />
<min charisma = '20' />
<mod agility = '-20' />
<max agility = '-20' />
<mod strip = '-15' />
<max strip = '20' />

<blocks name = 'Big Boobs' />
<blocks name = 'Average Boobs' />
<blocks name = 'Small Boobs' />
</trait>
which I considered to be a great trait, was never supposed to become this:

Code: [Select]

[code]    "id": "Abnormally Large Boobs",
    "desc": "One wonders how she keeps her balance. Those things are like miniature moons...",
    "block_traits": ["Big Boobs", "Average Boobs", "Small Boobs"],
    "mod": {"charisma": 30, "agility": -80},
    "min": {"charisma": 10},
    "max": {"charisma": 100, "agility": -80},
    "mod_skills": {"strip": [-0.08, 0, 0.1], "dance": [-0.1, 0, -0.1]},
    "breasts": true
    },[/code]

which has absolutely insane effects for any none base trait, not mentioning that these kinds of traits could be plainly left without effects at all because ALB do not make characters more charismatic or less agile in a lot of the sources and yet this is one of the traits-types we FORCE upon all character.

Most of your designs were really good in the @ release, but now you're dashing around huge values for items that cost 3 to 5k of Gold and simple traits. I don't know what has happened here

===
In any case, at least the mod: {mod_stats: [value, per_level]} idea is a good thing because the per 100 levels thing was a quick workaround. I am reluctant to do the same for max values without further discussion.

I''ll remove "mod" from the logic and replace it with mod_stats.