General Discussion

[Xela]

Ok, it should work with my next push, keep in mind that upkeep and disposition are still being applied once on traits application. Don't update traits until we had a chance to brush up upon concepts/fields.

I have left mod in for now.

[DarkTl]

The idea is that a lvl 100 character should get a full bonus from the trait, lvl 200 char gets 2x the bonus and etc. What is confusing?

100 lvl is an abstraction, so to speak. We can't say how much time you will need to get it, or how high it will be compared to endgame levels.

which has absolutely insane effects for any none base trait, not mentioning that these kinds of traits could be plainly left without effects at all because ALB do not make characters more charismatic or less agile in a lot of the sources and yet this is one of the traits-types we FORCE upon all character.

It makes them different from each other even without different occupations. +/-20 charisma is nothing at 50 lvl.

Most of your designs were really good in the @ release, but now you're dashing around huge values for items that cost 3 to 5k of Gold and simple traits. I don't know what has happened here

I'm not sure what do you mean by that. Prices were more or less the same all the time.

[DarkTl]

Ok, it should work with my next push, keep in mind that upkeep and disposition are still being applied once on traits application. Don't update traits until we

Disposition doesn't work like that. When I tried to test Half-Sister trait a few months ago, it game me an error. I looked at the code and found out that you disabled it in traits because it messes up with GMs somehow. So I had to change the trait, giving it effect that increases disposition changes and works together with other similar effects instead of simple disposition bonus.

[Xela]

100 lvl is an abstraction, so to speak. We can't say how much time you will need to get it, or how high it will be compared to endgame levels.

As I've said, it was rigged to reach the bonus value specified in json at level 100, it's not an obstruction, it's a poor workaround. I've already recoded mod_stats system as you've suggested. Just haven't pushed yet, I barely slept last night, there were some serious issues with the dummy I make for getting eq screen effects, I hope that there are now solved, it's also a decent way to look at how items really effect characters.

It makes them different from each other even without different occupations. +/-20 charisma is nothing at 50 lvl.

Yes, it is. It's a minor trait, a combination of +20 to max and +20 to stat is very considerable for it. Otherwise all the hours I've put into making the system sound is f*cked by traits.

I'm not sure what do you mean by that. Prices were more or less the same all the time.

Odd... Well, this needs to be reviewed, it doesn't feel right.

Disposition doesn't work like that. When I tried to test Half-Sister trait a few months ago, it game me an error. I looked at the code and found out that you disabled it in traits because it messes up with GMs somehow. So I had to change the trait, giving it effect that increases disposition changes and works together with other similar effects instead of simple disposition bonus.

No idea, that shouldn't be possible... disposition bonus or penalty should be applied once when the trait is applied and removed under the same rules. I'll need a test case for this to investigate if that isn't true.

===
I've added the Full Race to GUI. It will show only if the full_race is different from the race.

So in JSON data file:

"full_race": "Any String",
"race": "Must be a valid trait id or will default to Unknown"

This works just for the chars atm. I (still) have not pushed.

[DarkTl]

classes - characters.rpy:

#We prevent disposition from being changed by the traits or it will mess with girl_meets:

[DarkTl]

Odd... Well, this needs to be reviewed, it doesn't feel right.

It's a simple progression. If a short sword that gives + 20 max attack costs 150G, then Angelic Blade which gives + 150 max attack should be about 8000G.
However, it costs 2500, so there is a huge discount already.

Yes, it is. It's a minor trait, a combination of +20 to max and +20 to stat is very considerable for it. Otherwise all the hours I've put into making the system sound is f*cked by traits.

If we talking about minor traits in general, it's true. If we talking about boobs traits in h-game, they are not minor.

If we'll have, let's say, +2 to max charisma and -2 to max agility every 10 levels for ALBoobs, it won't break anything but will be different from -2 max charisma +2 max agility for small ones.

As I've said, it was rigged to reach the bonus value specified in json at level 100, it's not an obstruction, it's a poor workaround.

You asked me how it's confusing. It's confusing when you try to figure out values that are supposed to be at lvl 100. You never tried to balance or create traits, so you don't know about it.

[Xela]

classes - characters.rpy:

No idea:

Code: [Select]

                # We prevent disposition from being changed by the traits or it will mess with girl_meets:
                if key == "disposition":
                    stats.disposition += trait.mod_stats[key][0]
This does even mean anything, I'd expect this to crash the game with a trait that has disposition while it looks like disposition should be applied.

I'll allow it for now until I figure out how and why this messed with girlsmeets.

[Xela]

It's a simple progression. If a short sword that gives + 20 max attack costs 150G, then Angelic Blade which gives + 150 max attack should be about 8000G.
However, it costs 2500, so there is a huge discount already.

I hate it in items... feels like a very high quality sword should be 10 - 20x more expensive. Really HighQ sword 50x more expensive or something like that. We have items that ravage stats and don't cost much at all. Maybe I just lost track of Gold value in the game...

If we talking about minor traits in general, it's true. If we talking about boobs traits in h-game, they are not minor.

If we'll have, let's say, +2 to max charisma and -2 to max agility every 10 levels for ALBoobs, it won't break anything but will be different from -2 max charisma +2 max agility for small ones.

They should be in stats sense, it gotta be an event thing, I am telling you that these mods to charisma and agility are bogus, especially at levels that high.

Which is exactly the same as your traits value in @!

+/-20 at level 100 is EXACTLY what you should have gotten... We cannot allow per level max stat mods, they will obliterate all the work that I've done on the system (combination of 1 or 2 traits on top of the base traits can easily prevent a character from even going above 0 even at level 1000) and would be very difficult to balance. And I am also very afraid that they will be abused.

I've added max to traits and items not to be abused like they are now, couple of traits and an item and max level is not even useful anymore, only lvl_max remains in play.

You asked me how it's confusing. It's confusing when you try to figure out values that are supposed to be at lvl 100. You never tried to balance or create traits, so you don't know about it.

Set a girl to a level of 100 to find out, assume that she'll a bit more max and relevant stats closer to max due to work/training.

[DarkTl]

I hate it in items... feels like a very high quality sword should be 10 - 20x more expensive. Really HighQ sword 50x more expensive or something like that. We have items that ravage stats and don't cost much at all. Maybe I just lost track of Gold value in the game...

You should give me actual examples, I cannot justify the cost of an abstract item.
If you want to, you could calculate prices for items automatically based on their characteristics and rarity.

+/-20 at level 100 is EXACTLY what you should have gotten

There will be more levels after 100.

And it will hurt low level characters a lot in the very beginning, just like you feared. Less than -80, but still.
But if it will be applied gradually, it won't hurt them so much.

Set a girl to a level of 100 to find out, assume that she'll a bit more max and relevant stats closer to max due to work/training.

That's additional work for me 
With mod fields working as I described I don't need that because everything will be clear as it is.

[Xela]

You should give me actual examples, I cannot justify the cost of an abstract item.

Actually, while digging for examples I found that there is a good consistency in prices  I guess that purchasing power of Gold in the game got messed up in my head somewhere.

If you want to, you could calculate prices for items automatically based on their characteristics and rarity.
There will be more levels after 100.

That'll prolly make stuff worse.

And it will hurt low level characters a lot in the very beginning, just like you feared. Less than -80, but still.
But if it will be applied gradually, it won't hurt them so much.

I agree, but not for max values, that's why I've added stats_max functionality you've proposed. They already go up every level just when leveling up, are supposed to be guided by base traits, many items offer huge bonuses to them, PLEASE lets not add normal traits to the mix, mild and direct on application increases will do just fine...

Just adding to a stat ever so often on level-up is already HUGE advantage, normal level addons and items advantages and the basetraits should be more than enough to provide good max range for those increases and even leave room for training.

That's additional work for me 
With mod fields working as I described I don't need that because everything will be clear as it is.

Really? So you will be able to tell how a combination of 1 or 2 basetraits with leveling up and with the combination of x amount of normal traits and with the possible items (which they will often auto-buy + auto-equip), training, events and game progression will effect the character at x level?   

That sounds bogus to me and I know that system from inside out...

===
I am going to take a look at items issues tonight, since Gismo has finished with the designs and I have already took out at least 3 difficult "sub"issues while adding functionality to his GUI.

[DarkTl]

Really? So you will be able to tell how a combination of 1 or 2 basetraits with leveling up and with the combination of x amount of normal traits and with the possible items (which they will often auto-buy + auto-equip), training, events and game progression will effect the character at x level?   

Yup. Since I don't have to use 100 level, I could use 10-20 levels instead, and these calculations are more simple. All our bonuses fit into first 10-20 levels, we don't have stuff that begins to work at lvl 100 or something. At least yet.

In fact, with new mod field it will be rather simple to avoid too high stats because we can apply them little by little.

Of course if you give a character all existing traits that don't block each other (I think it's an impossible scenario for actually existing characters) and all top items with the chance of obtaining 1%, stats will be maxed out for the first 500 levels or so.

That reminds me, can I use the chance less than 1? In many games really powerful items have really low chances of dropping.

Just adding to a stat ever so often on level-up is already HUGE advantage, normal level addons and items advantages and the basetraits should be more than enough to provide good max range for those increases and even leave room for training.

I don't see the difference between +20 max in the beginning and +1 max per level for first 20 levels for example. We already allow all traits to increase max values. How making it gradual could make things worse? It's the same thing in the end, but better balanced for low levels. If it could break the game, usual max fields could do it as well, and we should get rid of them.
I'm preparing existing packs for the release meanwhile, without jsons yet. I got rid of doubles already, now I check if there are unclean sprites and images and clean them if needed/when possible. It won't take long, about 2-3 days.

[Xela]

That reminds me, can I use the chance less than 1? In many games really powerful items have really low chances of dropping.

Yes, that should work, I think that it just runs the dice and that can take floats.

I don't see the difference between +20 max in the beginning and +1 max per level for first 20 levels for example. We already allow all traits to increase max values. How making it gradual could make things worse? It's the same thing in the end, but better balanced for low levels. If it could break the game, usual max fields could do it as well, and we should get rid of them.

I don't follow... how are you planning to stop max going up after first 20 levels? Or is it another thing I have to code in? Usual max fields are meant to have moderate effects, per level effects are a lot more difficult to control.

[DarkTl]

Nah, I'm tired of this dispute. I'll do it like you proposed.

So what about disposition changing via traits? Currently it successfully crashes the game.
I vaguely recall how you mentioned something about possible issues with events if we'll use disposition on traits, because if an event requires 100 disposition and trait gives + 200, there is a high chance that it will never be triggered, or at least will be triggered not when you expected it to.

[DarkTl]

About gifts and their issue, currently they are way too effective, assuming that you know correct gifts. I propose to get rid of all disposition values and dismod field, and use hardcoded bonuses and penalties to disposition.
And use fields like goodtrait, badtrait, goodoccupation, badoccupation.
Other fields like cbloack will remain.

If there are more good traits than bad ones, it will be a perfect gift, and a bad one otherwise. If they are equal or close to it, it will be an ok gift.

[Xela]

Nah, I'm tired of this dispute. I'll do it like you proposed.

So what about disposition changing via traits? Currently it successfully crashes the game.
I vaguely recall how you mentioned something about possible issues with events if we'll use disposition on traits, because if an event requires 100 disposition and trait gives + 200, there is a high chance that it will never be triggered, or at least will be triggered not when you expected it to.

I think that I am starting to remember, it weren't the events. Interactions would have at some point to be bound to a counter of some kind and conditioned of those counters and disposition. But we can work around that if we assume that disposition can be increased outside of interaction, which it already can be... Maybe I had something else in mind but I can't think of anything atm.

One thing is that we need to make sure these traits can be added/removed by equippables, that will mess up the game a little bit.

About gifts and their issue, currently they are way too effective, assuming that you know correct gifts. I propose to get rid of all disposition values and dismod field, and use hardcoded bonuses and penalties to disposition.
And use fields like goodtrait, badtrait, goodoccupation, badoccupation.
Other fields like cbloack will remain.

If there are more good traits than bad ones, it will be a perfect gift, and a bad one otherwise. If they are equal or close to it, it will be an ok gift.

Equal? Wouldn't that be rare with so many traits in the game? It doesn't sound as good as our current system.

I think that I could hardcode maximum bonus values that gifts can offer, if the resulting bonus is above, it will be capped. Also, a bit more difficult thing to do, but we could add counters, making gifts less effective or even undesirable but I am not sure if we should do that for the next release.