General Discussion

[Gismo]

Here one more attempt to create the map.

[livingforever]

Hi all!

life simulation system

Oh god. Please keep in mind you're creating a game here.

This is one system that doesn't seem complex to me, just slow stats/money growth with a sprinkle of auto-buying items that is easy to control. Very little revolves around it and it exists to create an illusion of live city and set some flags for girls to improve girlsmeets.

DarkTI is talking about a valid problem that you should consider before implementing the system. And it is not just a balance problem.

Let me try to explain: There are two scenarios.
Your solution is to simply reduce the amount of money/items/whatever a character gains so the consequences won't be immediate.
By doing that, you are eliminating the whole point of the concept because there is almost no progress and a character takes hundreds of days for a crappy item and thousands for more.
In this case, you can scrap the concept right away. What's the point if the progress is so slow that most players won't even see it?

The second scenario in your solution would be to adjust the progress to be faster and more noticable, but that would bring up the problem of infinite growth more quickly.

Obviously, both scenarios aren't good. That's why DarkTI is bringing up ideas on how to fix it. If you can't, you shouldn't waste your time with that system.
What you need is a way to change equipment, consumables and dialogs (or other GM aspects) without (or only very rarely) changing the social status (upwards and downwards).
Have fun!

[Xela]

Here one more attempt to create the map.

This looks freaking awesome

Let me try to explain: There are two scenarios.

Why is there no scenario where we get a simple, linear system that lies overwhelmingly outside of players influence just right without any fuss?

After Dark puts together some resources, I or Thewlis will code some simple variant of this system. If there are problems with it, we'll handle it afterwards but I'd be amazed if the whole logic will be more than 40 - 50 lines (without loading resources) of simple, tweakable code. Maybe I underestimate or don't see some factors that may complicate this but Interactions (new girlsmeets/action module), ST, SE and content is what I have on my mind when I think PyTFall right now. Improved tags design might also prove to be a very complex topic.

====
If there are specific ideas/requests, lets hear them. General suggestions on how to solve phantom issues with a system that is seemingly simple in a game where we have created over 50k lines of code and content together sounds weird to me.

*but there is a good chance that I just need a good night sleep to clear my head cause it's been a crazy day and insane 4 weeks with any free time that I had going into the project (I am hopelessly behind on all other forms of entertainment at this point )

[livingforever]

Hi!

Why is there no scenario where we get a simple, linear system that lies overwhelmingly outside of players influence just right without any fuss?

Because a linear system is the worst thing you can do. It doesn't matter how you balance it, it will always feel wierd either for players that don't play much or for those that do.

I or Thewlis will code some simple variant of this system. If there are problems with it, we'll handle it afterwards

Right. Ignore potential problems, write code, see problems, write more code, fix problems, rewrite code, etc.
You could save yourself so much work if you would stop ignoring the conceptional phase that is very important for every software project.

If there are specific ideas/requests, lets hear them. General suggestions on how to solve phantom issues with a system that is seemingly simple in a game where we have created over 50k lines of code and content together sounds weird to me.

Except that it's not a phantom issue.
But fine, I'll try to serve it to you on a silver tray.

DarkTI already suggested something, so let's pick that up: A social status.
The sociel status would limit the equipment that a character can buy, the amount of money she/he can spend on it, maybe give stat bonuses (or maluses).
Add random events that can promote or demote a character into another social class to spice things up a little.

Example classes:
Beggar - Attack +10, Defense +10, Magic -10, Health +25, Vitality +50, Charisma -20, Refinement -30, very low quality equipment and consumables, almost no money gains
Poor - A +5, D +5, M -5, H +10, V +25, C -10, R -15, low quality, reduced
Average - medium quality, normal
Wealthy - A -5, D -5, M +5, H -10, V -25, C +10, R +15, high quality, increased
Noble - A -10, D - 10, M +10, H -25, V -50, C +20, R +30, very high quality, lots of cash

Example events:
Bandit raid: Demote a "Wealthy" classed character to "Average"
Scandal/War: A noble loses his/her title - demote to "Wealthy" class
Thievery: Demote from "Average"
Welfare donation: Promote from "Beggar"
...

As mentioned before, such events should be very rare.
Have fun!

[Xela]

...

Again: every free indie hentai project that had a clearcut concept written for it (or it's parts) has failed or is at standstill. I know it works for commercial games but I need to see at least one game like ours where it worked out for the best. This doesn't make sense, but same goes for a lot of things in life.

*It should be noted that we don't really ignore the conceptual phase, we simply adapt because proper concepts deal with sketches, loads of writing, mock-up code and we simply cannot afford that.

As far as I am concerned, we've saved time by writing base code for modules, looking how it interacts with the game, improving and adding stuff to it until it takes shape we'd like it to have and sometimes even rewriting the whole thing as we now do with girlsmeets/interactions logic (not labels) for example. I have countless examples to back this up...

=====================
We can go with social classes... I had ideas on how to do it much simpler (at least for now).

Lets start with jobs and housing, social status may prove to be a lot more far reaching than this module, lets see the system in the game, look at how it works/feels/interacts with other modules (new options for Interactions) and work up from there.

[CherryWood]

Social status? Do you mean that "rank" in game for prostitutes?
Isn't that solved from the start by that refusing customers+lowering reputation system? There was already someone in alpha who almost ruined themself by promoting girls too fast, because there were simply not enough customers for many of them working at the same time.

//Sorry for not contributing, I have some other work to do now 

[Xela]

Social status? Do you mean that "rank" in game for prostitutes?
Isn't that solved from the start by that refusing customers+lowering reputation system? There was already someone in alpha who almost ruined themself by promoting girls too fast, because there were simply not enough customers for many of them working at the same time.

Nah, more than that... Social status is a bit complex, prostitutes shouldn't really be Noble for example. Same might go for Warriors, Healers and a lot of other professions. It's a complex issue I don't want to touch right now, what we're trying to do is create a simulated "life" for characters in the game introducing some stats and wealth progression.

First reason for that are girlsmeets (Interaction now), hiring should be easier if a girl is unemployed for example. Girls having own dwellings can enable options for sex at higher disposition as we have for what we now call interactions.

Second to make sure you don't hire a girl that's been in the game for 500 days exactly the same as she is at day 1. We talked about this several times before.

I am thinking we'll use current girlsmeets interface for normal Interactions tree and current interactions interface for hentai stuff to appear after "hentai phase" was initiated.

PS: I've disabled the annoying caste matching stuff in one of the Alphas patches

[livingforever]

...

The amount of ignorance in this post is driving me insane. I think I should just stop commenting here.

• You're only looking at projects that have failed and make clear concepts responsible for their failure. They were all developed by humans, maybe that was the problem. They were all developed on a computer, maybe that's what made them fail. They all used a keyboard to write the code, maybe they shouldn't have.
  Get the point? Your argument is bullshit. Look at projects that have succeeded and ask if they used mature concepts or made up everything on the get go.
• Your "adaption" consists of doing unnecessary work because you're unable to think ahead. There are lots of people here that are willing to help you with the concepts, yet you refuse to think about anything in advance.
• You're telling me that you saved time by sometimes "rewriting the whole thing"? Tell that your grandma, not an experienced programmer. You have countless examples to back up your failure at planning? Examples of how you wasted time already?
  Your argument here is basically this: "We don't plan too much because we'll have to react to later changes anyway."
  What you don't understand: You could avoid having to react to changes if you would try to see these changes in advance. That's what concepts are all about.
• There is an obvious problem with the discussed system that you just ignore. We do not need to see it in the game, we already know that this problem will be there.

Jesus f***ing christ.
Have a nice day.

[CherryWood]

PS: I've disabled the annoying caste matching stuff in one of the Alphas patches

It was sure annoying with all those messages that time, but not allowing brothel to run with only high rank girls had some gameplay management potential.


I know that the brothels and slaves are legal in PytFall, but it is really to such extend that "real" nobles should be bothered by some rich prostitutes/adventurers?

btw. I looked for the room pictures in bg folders, there seems to be a awful lot of rich mansion rooms, some normal houses, but I wasn't able to find anything for poor girls, like a shack or something...

[livingforever]

Hi!

I know that the brothels and slaves are legal in PytFall, but it is really to such extend that "real" nobles should be bothered by some rich prostitutes/adventurers?

A city that accepts the first should definitely be liberal enough to accept the second - so I personally think that the social status shouldn't restrict the profession at all.
Have fun!

[CherryWood]

Hi!A city that accepts the first should definitely be liberal enough to accept the second - so I personally think that the social status shouldn't restrict the profession at all.
Have fun!

Seems valid    I personally doesn't really have an option about this social thing... but more money sinks are always good I guess

[Xela]

The amount of ignorance in this post is driving me insane. I think I should just stop commenting here.

And yet a list of comments follows...

• You're only looking at projects that have failed and make clear concepts responsible for their failure. They were all developed by humans, maybe that was the problem. They were all developed on a computer, maybe that's what made them fail. They all used a keyboard to write the code, maybe they shouldn't have.
  Get the point? Your argument is bullshit. Look at projects that have succeeded and ask if they used mature concepts or made up everything on the get go.

I watched many project being developed, everyone (OW, SM, WM, CoC, Old Huntsman games (even the latest one), SB, SB:Revival and etc) worked in the same way as us and all delivered (ing) good games. In fact I've practically based development of what I've seen them do/discuss on their forums.

You claim my statement's "ignorance" but yours are full of sh!t for a reason I've stated several times already:

Maintaining a proper game design document (job that Game Designer is responsible for) is just as time consuming (if not more) than job of a programmer. We cannot afford that and have found a way to (successfully) do both at the same time. If you are trying to tell me that writing and maintaining a proper game design document and coding the game from it is less time consuming for a small indie development team that isn't in it for the money than you're wrong because I've seen too many proves of the contrary and experienced the same myself.

MM: Huge, detailed design and concept... 10 000+ lines of code written by Thewlis... abandoned by Game Designer who is still around and online btw because "he burned out (writing/thinking through the concept?)"

Alkion: Great game with a decent dev team and hundreds of hours spent in chatroom (8 people active), concept laid out in dedicated software maintained by me... down to a single programmer (Eliont) with the whole team falling apart and me moving away from the project because it went astray in "concept".

• Your "adaption" consists of doing unnecessary work because you're unable to think ahead. There are lots of people here that are willing to help you with the concepts, yet you refuse to think about anything in advance.

We're thinking ahead and you're making it sound like even proper design documents get things right from the first time which isn't true. Stuff gets changed, adapted, rewritten all the time. Code gets improved and rewritten as well.

In professional development, mid-term concepts often barely resemble starting once.

And once again, maintaining a games concept is a lot of hard, complicated and time consuming work. I would rather create what I envision to show to the dev team and we can later decide if we work/keep/change the module together when everyone has the same thing in-front of them instead of 500 words that are very likely to be misunderstood.

• You're telling me that you saved time by sometimes "rewriting the whole thing"? Tell that your grandma, not an experienced programmer. You have countless examples to back up your failure at planning? Examples of how you wasted time already?
  Your argument here is basically this: "We don't plan too much because we'll have to react to later changes anyway."
  What you don't understand: You could avoid having to react to changes if you would try to see these changes in advance. That's what concepts are all about.

Load of cr@p. It will be much faster for me to write a mock-up logic code with simple graphics interface than write a huge text about interface, logic, progression, interactions with other modules and etc. My granma is smart enough to understand that and see reason (She used to teach Physics and Math), I don't understand why you can't...

• There is an obvious problem with the discussed system that you just ignore. We do not need to see it in the game, we already know that this problem will be there.

I have no reason to believe that girls will all become super rich in a system that I haven't even got a chance to fail at yet... Wish that I had that crystal ball of yours...

===============

It was sure annoying with all those messages that time, but not allowing brothel to run with only high rank girls had some gameplay management potential.


I know that the brothels and slaves are legal in PytFall, but it is really to such extend that "real" nobles should be bothered by some rich prostitutes/adventurers?

A city that accepts the first should definitely be liberal enough to accept the second - so I personally think that the social status shouldn't restrict the profession at all.

I want high rank prostitutes to simply refuse working sh!tty buildings (and slaves can't get past rank 3 right now).

You don't think noblemen would mind a whore of any kind to hold the same social rank as them? That's one of the main main building stones of these hierarchical societies, higher castes believe that they're special and strongly oppose everything that makes them less... to the point where they are willing to kill, falsely prosecute and walk all over people, even (or often) those who are often far more deserving of greater status then themselves...

We could allow nobility to be bought or leased but that should cost unreasonable amount if money that no girl should be able to get + usually a society that leases or sells nobility has a king/ruler of some kind, we discussed some form of senate/council to rule PyTFall.

Like I've said, I wouldn't want to touch this topic right now.

btw. I looked for the room pictures in bg folders, there seems to be a awful lot of rich mansion rooms, some normal houses, but I wasn't able to find anything for poor girls, like a shack or something...

I recall having trouble finding poor housing as well... but now Dark's on the job

[livingforever]

Hi!

You don't think noblemen would mind a whore of any kind to hold the same social rank as them?

You're implying that being a prostitute is a terrible thing. But the same noblemen that think so accept prostitution as a normal business? Doesn't make much sense.

You claim my statement's "ignorance" but yours are full of sh!t for a reason I've stated several times already:

you're wrong because I've seen too many proves of the contrary and experienced the same myself

Load of cr@p.

I don't understand why you can't...

Well, I guess my words didn't make you reconsider your point of view at all.
Since you're having so much trouble believing me, try these:

• Ian Sommerville - Software Engineerung (currently 9th edition, I've read the 8th)
• Hans van Vliet - Software Engineering: Principles and Practice (3rd edition)
• Grady Booch - Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with Applications (3rd edition)
• Tracy Fullerton - Game Design Workshop (2nd edition) (I have to admit that I didn't read this one, but it was recommended to me several times)

Just a few recommendations. If you don't believe literature either, I can't help you.

I should have known that such things are not welcomed in the project.

Yes. Stupid me trying to make a difference...
Have fun!

[Xela]

You're implying that being a prostitute is a terrible thing. But the same noblemen that think so accept prostitution as a normal business? Doesn't make much sense.

? Noblemen throughout history accepted a lot of professions of all kinds that working class was allowed to do but ascending to nobility was often forbidden to all of them (even doctors, artists and etc.).

Sometimes it nobility was related to holding an office, sometimes it could only be inherited. In some societies/periods it could be bought or even leased (almost always nobility came with privileges commoners didn't have). At times it didn't even have anything to do with money as super-super rich didn't get to become noble (unless by marriage and even that was frowned upon).

It makes sense in a lot of ways and there are plenty examples.

*All of it depends on the society but I just can't see nobility allowing whores to ascend...

Well, I guess my words didn't make you reconsider your point of view at all.
Since you're having so much trouble believing me, try these:

• Ian Sommerville - Software Engineerung (currently 9th edition, I've read the 8th)
• Hans van Vliet - Software Engineering: Principles and Practice (3rd edition)
• Grady Booch - Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with Applications (3rd edition)
• Tracy Fullerton - Game Design Workshop (2nd edition) (I have to admit that I didn't read this one, but it was recommended to me several times)

Just a few recommendations. If you don't believe literature either, I can't help you.

And you don't see my points or hear my arguments. Lets end this and stop wasting each-others time, if you don't raise the issue, I promise that I won't.

[Xela]

Small update to girlslist interface, using some of the new SL2 syntax.

+ I restored tavern icon (noticed the comment in Thewlis's push)