General Discussion

[Xela]

- Updated girls profile screen a bit (should work a bit faster now)

[DarkTl]

I'm not sure if social classes should be visible in gui. But they should be there, because we have to call them somehow, and probably set them in girls data files as well.

Why use stepwise classes? Without classes it won't be so simple to set initial level of life quality in data files.

My ideas here:
- Stats and classes are connected (for non hired girls only). Higher classes need higher stats, and vice versa. So, in order to achive higher class, girls should increase stats (= level).
- Why we cannot just use levels and forget about stats? Because characters with 1000 level and 10 in all stats don't make sense. Stats should grow too, preferably more or less randomly.
- Why we cannot use levels instead of social levels? Because there could be various circumstances, like powerful and poor chars, or weak but wealthy ones. Of course powerful ones will advance quickly, but that's a part of life simulation.
- In order to increase stats and levels, girls spend money. No free stats, well, maybe there could be occasional free ones for low level classes. The higher stats, the more money they need. We acually could use schools for that, I guess.
- 1-2 backgrounds for rooms for every class, depending on how many I have. If we won't use stepwise classes, it won't be so simple to assign them.
- Lowest class (beggar?) probably shouldn't have an actual room. Maybe I'll find some kind of hut or tent, but generally they live on streets.
- Fixed jobs. They may vary depending on rng and occupation, but generally there is a list of available jobs for every social level.
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An alternative, a system without classes.
- Multiple jobs with requirements to stats and sometimes occupations, with a limited number of workers. So we will have competition in the labor market. The better the job, the lower amount of possible workers.
- We don't even force them to work. If they have enough money, or have some other unusual circumstances, they could live without it.
- Still money are needed to increase stats.
- It's up to AI and rng how to spend money, either buy items and better house and food or increase stats in order to find a better job in the future. Maybe depending on traits.
- No specific initial level of life quality. You can set level, maybe give some gold, but everything else is up to character. Kinda cool, huh? 
- Character can rent/buy better houses if she wants to. If she can't pay a rent, she loses the house, obviously.
But we don't force them to change houses at higher levels if they don't want to.
- We still could use random events to help/harm characters.

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages. Pick one. The second one seems more advanced to me, but it's not necessarily a good thing.

[Xela]

Sys1
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Sys2

Can we say no to both systems (at least for now)?

Reasons:

1) Large parts of what you suggest in both systems is world simulation and we decided to hold that off until post release of 1.0.

2) Somewhat complex systems are suggested without exposure of player to them, they will also likely to require balancing. Seems wasteful in both dev time and computing resources (former will stop being true when we can manage an interesting world, latter I need to time when we have some base code).

3) This will be weird unless this is checked with similar jobs that girls do for the player, another part of World Simulation (some unified balance).

***
What do we need right now:

- 2 - 3 job names sorted per occupation to be reflected in Interactions (and to be taken into account during hiring process)
- 2 - 3 levels of dwelling bound to those jobs (could be two dwellings per job for example).
- background(s) for these dwellings if a girl want to invite mc to stay (this can actually be avoided if we just add an option for mc to invite a girl into his apartment (assuming he has one) but would be nice to have).
- Fixed amount of cash to be paid on weekly basis based on the job (perhaps to be further modified through stats).
- Auto-buy function to be run for for all free girls even outside of mcs employment (we may already have that).
- Allowing to level-up girls thought their xml files
- Having the game setting up random and unspecified unique girls to levels automatically (40%: lvl1 - 3, 40%: lvl5 - 15, 15%: lvl20 - 40, 5%: lvl 40-60) *and adjusting stats accordingly (with percentages as we do now, just after they're leveled up)
- Having a slow stat growth. **We should prolly also set up starting cash so they can run some initial form of auto-buy routine for girls with jobs.

Simple balance to all of this, girls are not paid their wages, instead they just get some specified amount of cash based off their job. Slow stats growth as well (+0/1 per 2 weeks for general stats and +1/3 for occupational stats and 500 adjusted exp).

This will allow us to build up on content today with a system that we can easily expand and do not require balancing out atm. Player is also exposed to parts of the system that are fun as all girls autobuy items based in their traits, will have housing and require higher disposition (or better wage (like simple +10 to 30% flag in the expected wage method to be set during hiring process)).

We will handle interesting case though modding unique girls... as we previously agreed. If we want routines for girls to change jobs, I'll add simple rng events that do just that. Advanced system we can handle when we start working on World Sim module.

[Gismo]

Push small update.

- I added an Imperial set of armor + experimental frame for items in hero profile

[DarkTl]

We don't have to implement those systems wholly and right now, but we should choose between social ranks and their absence in both code and girls files.
Because the game has to decide somehow where a girl lives, ie which background to show. It's either her social rank based (a more fixed value that you could set in data file) or based on her current income (= job and stats). So you still have to pick something 

Push small update.
- I added an Imperial set of armor + experimental frame for items in hero profile

Regarding equipment screen gui, most of all we need a decent equipment doll. Many games have it, and it looks good there. Probably different ones for male and female characters.

[livingforever]

Hi!

Can we say no to both systems (at least for now)?

Remember what I asked you in one of my last PMs? You don't have to keep us from discussing more complex concepts just because you don't want to implement them at the moment.

3) This will be weird unless this is checked with similar jobs that girls do for the player, another part of World Simulation (some unified balance).

Why? Perhaps the character agrees to be hired by the player exactely because she/he doesn't like his/her old job.

- 2 - 3 levels of dwelling bound to those jobs (could be two dwellings per job for example).

The same job can often have very different wages at different places.
More preferrable would be to create general houses with a price and assign pricing ranges for specific jobs.

- Auto-buy function to be run for for all free girls even outside of mcs employment (we may already have that).

Did you think about splitting private and work equipment? Most items are influencing stats, randomly changing those would be somewhat annoying, so what the character wears on the job could/should be considered a working uniform.
That would of course bring up the question if auto-buy is actually useful. Maybe some variations in the dialogs would be a much simpler solution.

- Fixed amount of cash to be paid on weekly basis based on the job (perhaps to be further modified through stats).
- Having a slow stat growth. **We should prolly also set up starting cash so they can run some initial form of auto-buy routine for girls with jobs.

Simple balance to all of this, girls are not paid their wages, instead they just get some specified amount of cash based off their job. Slow stats growth as well (+0/1 per 2 weeks for general stats and +1/3 for occupational stats and 500 adjusted exp).

And here comes the problem that DarkTI and me have been talking about.
What happens after day 50? Or 500? Or 5000? All characters in town have all stats maxed out? That's ridiculous.
And no, "slow" stat growth is wrong as long as it's linear, no matter how slow it is. The slower you make it, the less relevant will the feature be and the less players will notice it so it becomes irrelevant.

This will allow us to build up on content today with a system that we can easily expand and do not require balancing out atm.

I honestly don't see how you can easily expand that system without rewriting it. Could you give an example?

...

Definitely sounds interesting - I personally would prefer the first option, mostly because it's easier to implement, more intuitive for the player and the social class could be used for other purposes as well.
I still don't think jobs should be locked to the social class though.

I don't like the second option because it sounds too much like a number crunching game that the players would barely notice.
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

Gondra and Xipomus are still active on this forum, but I haven't seen others for too long. I cleared db a bit, except Ncog folder where he has some actually not completely outdated ideas about girlmeets.

[Gismo]

Perhaps I was misunderstood, but I didn't change the hero's screen, only a background for an equipment icon )

Regarding equipment screen gui, most of all we need a decent equipment doll. Many games have it, and it looks good there. Probably different ones for male and female characters.

I'll look what is possible to make with this.

[DarkTl]

The same job can often have very different wages at different places.
More preferrable would be to create general houses with a price and assign pricing ranges for specific jobs.

Yup. I'll see what I can do to make it realistic.

Did you think about splitting private and work equipment? Most items are influencing stats, randomly changing those would be somewhat annoying, so what the character wears on the job could/should be considered a working uniform.

We don't have items that were created not for a job, I'm afraid. I guess it makes sense, for example, for warriors to wear armor at work and wear dress at free time, but that probably will be unnoticed by players. You don't see equipment screen all the time, and pictures are not connected to it too.

What happens after day 50? Or 500? Or 5000? All characters in town have all stats maxed out? That's ridiculous.
And no, "slow" stat growth is wrong as long as it's linear, no matter how slow it is. The slower you make it, the less relevant will the feature be and the less players will notice it so it becomes irrelevant.

Indeed. Xela, you suggested longer slave training, ie longer game. So there will be plenty of time to max out stats for everyone without means to prevent it.

[MrKlaus]

 

What do we need right now:
 
 - 2 - 3 job names sorted per occupation to be reflected in Interactions (and to be taken into account during hiring process)
 

Hiring Whores:
- Street whores (girls that work on their own, lurking the streets and bars looking for clients).
- Ex courtesan (her wealthy master/owned died, she looks for a way to earn, she could be more expensive and be more picky about clients).
- Whore at rivals place
Hiring Stripers:
- Street performer/Belly dancer/Ballet Dancer/circus gymnast (“Hey baby! Do you want to earn more with your smoking curves?” – something like this).
- Teacher from the dance class (why train two left feet girls when you could hire the teacher).
- Striper in rival place
Maids/Servants:
- Young maid that finished her internship and is looking for place to work
- Maid at a merchant/noble that works there but is looking for better offer or an experienced maid that was taking care of an elderly person that died.
- Unemployed girl that want to have a decent life and live by a moral code (she wont whore)
 
And the most obvious for all professions, broken girls that will do anything for gold.
 

What do we need right now:
 
 - 2 - 3 levels of dwelling bound to those jobs (could be two dwellings per job for example).
 

Whore/Stripper/Maid:
- Room in hostel (several people in one room)
- Renting small apartment above bakery/blacksmith/other shit.
- Rent an apartment in a larger building
- Owning an apartment
- Own a house
Warrior/Security (more private because she have weapons):
- Renting a private room (in house, hostel, other place).
- Renting an apartment
- Small castle
 
And for all: living with family or boyfriend.
About renting; visiting a girl that is renting could trigger an event in meeting her roommate/sister/mother/neighbor.
 

[Xela]

Yup. I'll see what I can do to make it realistic.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh

It doesn't need to be realistic because of very limited exposure of this system to the player! Guys, base value + stats mod will for now! Don't complicate stuff that is just as fun for the player when it's simple.

We don't have items that were created not for a job, I'm afraid. I guess it makes sense, for example, for warriors to wear armor at work and wear dress at free time, but that probably will be unnoticed by players. You don't see equipment screen all the time, and pictures are not connected to it too.

Girls are already auto-buying (limited, based mostly off traits) and auto-equipping items (fairly well thought through) based on task they preform. This is one line of code in custom scripts by the way.

Indeed. Xela, you suggested longer slave training, ie longer game. So there will be plenty of time to max out stats for everyone without means to prevent it.

1) After 14 years (5k days) into the game player will start asking questions about why the hell is nobody getting any older (static pics base for 95% of chars) and why the hell am I still playing this? *I think that we'll have better re-playability value than long-term playability value even with the system as I've suggested.

2) Please do the math with the simple figures I provided before asking what'll happen in 50 - 1000 (about 3 years) days, you'll get a fairly clear picture. *which I thought made sense for current gameplay

3) Living is prolly not aware of this, but you should know that new girls are added to the game as it progresses. Assuming that some girls will be killed off/got rid of with events or find themselves in mcs ever growing business empire, new girls will be created by the game so there will be normal characters even at the day 10**9.
*Unique girls can be scripted to appear at any day in the game with every single stat provided by the modder as well.

If after the system is coded and you feel that this isn't enough, I'll use rng to cap every single girl outside of player control (2 lines of code at best) and that will always be fresh (new rulez on every gameplay) and problem becomes non-existent. If released by player, she'll get extra two levels of slow development before being capped again (to prevent her being exactly the same on rehire) (another two lines). I do however doubt that this will be needed...

I honestly don't see how you can easily expand that system without rewriting it. Could you give an example?

Prolly not without risking starting another debate about concepts and development. I'll get it done, you don't need to worry about me/Thewlis coding the game.


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**I've repeatedly said that avoiding social castes would be smarter right now, stories about poor noblemen who marries a rich merchants daughter just to get to wealth in exchange of their children sharing the title or rich and talented merchant being harassed by noblemen in every way imaginable because they consider him below their standing and are envious of his wealth are as old as the concept of nobility itself. Not mentioning all other possible social ranks. It is impossible (actually it's perfectly possible but will require adaptation of a decent amount of gameplay logic to make it good. We have a lot of work to do, lets do it and release new playable version!) to tie to wealth or jobs. Girlsmeets would have to be adjusted as well as well as behavior towards NPCs/Charcters and their behavior towards MC (who'd also need adjustable social rank).

[Xela]

Hiring Whores:
- Street whores (girls that work on their own, lurking the streets and bars looking for clients).
- Ex courtesan (her wealthy master/owned died, she looks for a way to earn, she could be more expensive and be more picky about clients).
- Whore at rivals place
Hiring Stripers:
- Street performer/Belly dancer/Ballet Dancer/circus gymnast (“Hey baby! Do you want to earn more with your smoking curves?” – something like this).
- Teacher from the dance class (why train two left feet girls when you could hire the teacher).
- Striper in rival place
Maids/Servants:
- Young maid that finished her internship and is looking for place to work
- Maid at a merchant/noble that works there but is looking for better offer or an experienced maid that was taking care of an elderly person that died.
- Unemployed girl that want to have a decent life and live by a moral code (she wont whore)
 
And the most obvious for all professions, broken girls that will do anything for gold.
 Whore/Stripper/Maid:
- Room in hostel (several people in one room)
- Renting small apartment above bakery/blacksmith/other shit.
- Rent an apartment in a larger building
- Owning an apartment
- Own a house
Warrior/Security (more private because she have weapons):
- Renting a private room (in house, hostel, other place).
- Renting an apartment
- Small castle
 
And for all: living with family or boyfriend.
About renting; visiting a girl that is renting could trigger an event in meeting her roommate/sister/mother/neighbor.

Some of those jobs will work just fine, some sound like unique events/stories (require more than base logic).

Renting/Ownership we're not going to bother with atm.

*Boyfriend == more complex Interactions content
*roommate/sister/mother/neighbor + boyfriend right now == conflicts with a possible relationship system we talked about for the future.

There is also always a question of what's sensible to handle with games logic and what should be handled through scripting for individual girls or maybe even scripting for entire packs. We've discussed this before at the very beginning of development but this is prolly too complex of a topic to ever reach a final decision, especially before the game world and code took some coherent shape.

There is always a chance that after the gameworld is established we'll move to a SlaveMaker type of development with loads of unique content being developed by modders where complex game systems can actually get in the way (even if not in code (which is likely to always be very flexible due to Ren'Py/Python) but simply by limiting unique design options due to expected advanced gameflow).

[DarkTl]

Girls are already auto-buying (limited, based mostly off traits) and auto-equipping items (fairly well thought through) based on task they preform. This is one line of code in custom scripts by the way.

Hm? If you want to code two types of inventory, for work and for free time, I'm not going to stop you. I just don't think that it will be useful.

[MrKlaus]

 

Renting/Ownership we're not going to bother with atm.
 
 *Boyfriend == more complex Interactions content
 *roommate/sister/mother/neighbor + boyfriend right now == conflicts with a possible relationship system we talked about for the future.
 

@renting/ownership: I was thinking more like a general response in dialog with the girl then a whole system of ownership. Something like this:
MC: Where do you live?
Girl: I live at… I rent a room at… I have my place… I live with my mommy…
Better place = more money spend by the girl to keep it
 
@roommate/and all the others – something like a normal girl meet place. Being at her apartment the player could pick who he wants to talk with.
Btw. An idea just hit me, an all girl boarding school. Think more about it or let it sink?
 

[DarkTl]

^I like the idea, but it should be a part of relationship system indeed.