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Author Topic: Whore Master Patch  (Read 193723 times)

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Offline Number76

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #285 on: June 16, 2012, 05:56:21 AM »
However, when I get a large number of girls, I don't want to distribute items to all of them manually. The current game allows me give slave girls a small amount of gold with which they will equip themselves, albeit slowly. This allows me to mirco the things I care about, and let what I view as the more tedious tasks tend to themselves. This option is what I'd like to see preserved, and what becomes more difficult if I cannot pay my slave girls in one form or another.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #286 on: June 16, 2012, 06:11:12 AM »
To balance this out, certain jobs which are normally paid by the player (Security, Advertising, Customer Service, etc.) will be performed (much) better if you have a free girl do them. They're getting paid to do it, after all, and some of these jobs pay pretty well comparatively.
On the other hand, slaves can be punished if they don't work hard enough, and they (probably) will be beyond the law if they run away, while free girls can leave you anytime and find another job.
I agree that slavery must be somehow balanced out, though.

  You can 'pay' your slaves by changing the slider if you so wish... I do that sometimes for slaves who preform well for whatever reasons just for the heck of it.
But you can't control amount of payment for the jobs mentioned by Aika. This slider needs some improvement.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:13:02 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #287 on: June 16, 2012, 06:48:13 AM »
On the other hand, slaves can be punished if they don't work hard enough, and they (probably) will be beyond the law if they run away, while free girls can leave you anytime and find another job.

Actually the way game is played now free girls can't leave you for sh!tz... they should however have such an option and different functions handling their work/preferences.

I agree that slavery must be somehow balanced out, though.

Balancing out slavery is abolishing slavery, it is supposed to be easier and a lot more profitable by default, I cannot understand your logic in this... If you want to balance it our somehow, add an upkeep fee for a slave, since they are your property it is logical that you have to take care of them and their needs while free girls can take care of themselves, making slaves 2 or 3 times worse workers than free girls is in my opinion absurd.

But you can't control amount of payment for the jobs mentioned by Aika. This slider needs some improvement.

You control what percentage she gets, over a long run even 5% per week will stack up to a very decent amount, it is something to consider but not something that should be on the very top of TODO list...
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #288 on: June 16, 2012, 08:24:05 AM »
they should however have such an option and different functions handling their work/preferences.
Indeed. This is part of balancing out, I guess.

Balancing out slavery is abolishing slavery, it is supposed to be easier and a lot more profitable by default
I never said it isn't supposed to be more profitable. It's just too easy. For example, we can make a slave from any girl without any consequences at all. Anarchy, huh?

You control what percentage she gets, over a long run even 5% per week will stack up to a very decent amount
Unless she works as cleaner, guard, etc. There're a lot of such jobs, actually.

Offline Popuri

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #289 on: June 16, 2012, 08:34:29 AM »
Hmm...if I might make a suggestion regarding the slave balance thing?

Something that would make sense to me and also act as a bit of a downside to slavery would be if (either by a new trait called 'Slave' or just included elsewhere), slaves had a cap on their spirit and could never go higher than say...50 or 60 (just pulling numbers out of thin air).  It might affect jobs where high spirit is helpful, but wouldn't necessarily hurt others and not crippling since I believe most jobs rely on multiple stats.  It can be hard to flourish and be perky when you're owned property.

Offline Xela

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #290 on: June 16, 2012, 01:52:44 PM »
I never said it isn't supposed to be more profitable. It's just too easy. For example, we can make a slave from any girl without any consequences at all. Anarchy, huh?

Yeah.. there should be a great penalty for enslavement, no arguments there...

Unless she works as cleaner, guard, etc. There're a lot of such jobs, actually.

Actually Aika said something about balancing out jobs, at least I hope he did, but you're right. There are several ways to fix this problem, all depends on the coder.

Just a thought... how wise is it to have slaves work as guards? Arming slaves willingly just sounds kind of absurd and dangerous in itself. Only slaves that had been enslaved and trained from birth or that undergone some magical brainwashing can be armed... I am getting in to deep here, it is to difficult to code and explain to all players :(
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 02:02:23 PM by Xela »
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Offline Xela

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #291 on: June 16, 2012, 01:56:28 PM »
Hmm...if I might make a suggestion regarding the slave balance thing?

Something that would make sense to me and also act as a bit of a downside to slavery would be if (either by a new trait called 'Slave' or just included elsewhere), slaves had a cap on their spirit and could never go higher than say...50 or 60 (just pulling numbers out of thin air).  It might affect jobs where high spirit is helpful, but wouldn't necessarily hurt others and not crippling since I believe most jobs rely on multiple stats.  It can be hard to flourish and be perky when you're owned property.

 Yeap, that is one of the ways you could offset slavery, it all depends on how Aika codes jobs, if spirit is important, it would be a way, just 50 - 60 might be to harsh, as I said before, Slaves should not be significantly weaker at preforming their tasks than free girls.
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Offline Aika

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #292 on: June 16, 2012, 04:00:16 PM »
Ok, this discussion has taken a turn toward arguing over whether slave girls should be balanced at all. Let's get this discussion back on track. Basically what I've seen here is people like my idea that you don't pay slaves for doing a job, but don't like anything that would balance out the MASSIVE advantage you get for employing slaves over free girls. The problem here is that at a certain point, there's no reason to employ free girls at all.

Balancing out slavery is abolishing slavery, it is supposed to be easier and a lot more profitable by default, I cannot understand your logic in this...

If slave girls can do jobs the player pays for, for free, just as well as a free girl can, there's no reason to have a free girl do the job. The goal here is game balance. I need options here for the game's balance, so that enslaving every girl in your brothel isn't the best idea. I need reasons to keep girls free, other than just the fact that Matron and Torturer cannot be a slave.
 
 Free girls have higher rebelliousness, don't do any better of a job than a slave, and you have to pay them. I can't think of any reason, with the way things are in the game, why I'd want a free girl to do a job instead of a slave I can get to do the job for free. This needs work, and if I have to do something that doesn't make complete sense in order to give the player reasons to want to have free girls in their brothel, that's what I'm going to have to do.
 
 
If you want to balance it our somehow, add an upkeep fee for a slave, since they are your property it is logical that you have to take care of them and their needs while free girls can take care of themselves...

Hmm... interesting idea, and one that would be relatively easy to code in... Let's examine this idea a bit. If we add an upkeep for slaves, it would encourage players to use free girls, especially early on when it would be difficult for them to make any kind of profit from slave girls working bar jobs. Let's say we set slave upkeep to 25 gold per accomodation level. That seems reasonable for a week of room and board. A barmaid slave would need to take care of (on average) 2 customers to earn her keep, any more is profit. If you have her working a job like cleaning, security, advertising, etc. that doesn't earn money for the brothel, you're still paying her 25 gold per accomodation level upkeep. In the case of free girls working the same jobs, you're paying her directly for the job and letting her take care of her own accomodations. But these jobs pay anywhere from 50-75 gold, so it's still more profitable to set a slave to do the job, and free girls still don't offer any advantages at these jobs. Also, later on when free girls are making enough that their cut of 40% is more than just 25 gold, it's still more profitable to have a slave do the job, and free girls still don't offer any advantages.

Good idea, needs work. 

making slaves 2 or 3 times worse workers than free girls is in my opinion absurd.
Nice to know you think my ideas are absurd.  ::)


I have an idea here, I took a look at your code and noticed that you check against both weapons. Second weapon is a shiv, knife or dagger. Those can be concealed and can be an asset in capable hands when dealing with some seriously pissed of and unruly costumer, also should not hurt girl's confidence and security.

For this, there is the small weapon type, which the new function does not check for. A girl can have one weapon that's small enough to be concealed.

You control what percentage she gets, over a long run even 5% per week will stack up to a very decent amount, it is something to consider but not something that should be on the very top of TODO list...

Actually, as I trip over things that need to be fixed/changed/made different while I'm working on the coding for the job functions, they do land on the very top of the TODO list. And that's really something that should be my decision, not yours. :/
 
 
we can make a slave from any girl without any consequences at all.
 
THIS!!! This is what I'm trying to fix. I need consequences for making a girl a slave, to balance out the benefits of free labor against some drawback.
 
 
Just like how I don't really trust a matron to correctly take my girls on/off shifts...
 
You don't trust the matron? Why? Is there a problem with it? I spent some time a while back tracing this out to find the crash when the torturer is taken off shift, and (hopefully) fixed that. Are there other problems? I need to know so I can fix it.
 
 The matron takes a girl off shift, and the game stores in that particular girl's variables what job she was doing before the matron put her on resting. When the girl is rested enough, the matron puts her back on the job stored in the girl's variables, and clears the variable. The variable is saved, so saving/loading doesn't cause any breaks in the code, and the matron code is triggered by the girl having low health or high tiredness to have the matron take her off shift, and again by high health and low tiredness to have the matron put her back on the job. As far as I can tell from looking at the code, there's no reason not to trust the matron to do her job. I can review it again, but I need something to go off of to try to track down your problem with it other than "I just don't trust it".

Hmm...if I might make a suggestion regarding the slave balance thing?

Something that would make sense to me and also act as a bit of a downside to slavery would be if (either by a new trait called 'Slave' or just included elsewhere), slaves had a cap on their spirit and could never go higher than say...50 or 60 (just pulling numbers out of thin air).  It might affect jobs where high spirit is helpful, but wouldn't necessarily hurt others and not crippling since I believe most jobs rely on multiple stats.  It can be hard to flourish and be perky when you're owned property.

Now this is an idea, but it would be a bit difficult to implement. The whole part about putting a conditional cap on a girl's stat would be a bitch to code in. It would also make the difference between free girls and slave girls rebelliousness even more ridiculous than it already is.

Offline Marquis

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #293 on: June 16, 2012, 04:25:46 PM »

Maybe use PCHate as a variable to help promote usage of free girls over slaves by having all current girls (slaves and free) not like slavery. This could be in addition to any 'nice/not nice' adjustment.


Buy a slave at the market: all current girls get +1PCHate
Enslave a catacomb capture before releasing from dungeon: all current girls get +2PCHate
Enslave a given daughter/meet girl: all current girls get +3PCHate
Free a slave: all current girls get -2PCHate


This does give a bias towards 'nice' masters, although if a master keeps PCFear high it may keep the haters in line.

Offline crazy

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #294 on: June 16, 2012, 05:15:38 PM »
I need reasons to keep girls free, other than just the fact that Matron and Torturer cannot be a slave.
xela made a good point about not arming slaves so maybe switch Security to free only.
Hmm... interesting idea, and one that would be relatively easy to code in... Let's examine this idea a bit. If we add an upkeep for slaves, it would encourage players to use free girls, especially early on when it would be difficult for them to make any kind of profit from slave girls working bar jobs. Let's say we set slave upkeep to 25 gold per accomodation level. That seems reasonable for a week of room and board. A barmaid slave would need to take care of (on average) 2 customers to earn her keep, any more is profit. If you have her working a job like cleaning, security, advertising, etc. that doesn't earn money for the brothel, you're still paying her 25 gold per accomodation level upkeep. In the case of free girls working the same jobs, you're paying her directly for the job and letting her take care of her own accomodations. But these jobs pay anywhere from 50-75 gold, so it's still more profitable to set a slave to do the job, and free girls still don't offer any advantages at these jobs. Also, later on when free girls are making enough that their cut of 40% is more than just 25 gold, it's still more profitable to have a slave do the job, and free girls still don't offer any advantages.

Good idea, needs work. 
Always thought accomodation's should mean more not just to slave or not but with custmomers also.  Why wouldn't they be happier if they went to a nice room instead of a shit hole room.
  THIS!!! This is what I'm trying to fix. I need consequences for making a girl a slave, to balance out the benefits of free labor against some drawback.
Always thought if you enslaved a girl yourself your dispsion should take a much larger hit.  I mean don't you think that girl you just enslaved that your now making whore herself to anyone would be telling everyone that you enslaved her?  My thoughts were something along the lines of my making the politcs play a bigger part there.  Make it to where you had to spend more money to keep the police off you.  Maybe even make it to where you have to send girls to the mayor to have sex with so he doesn't have them bust you...  On my wall of crazy ideals was to make you throw parties at your house for the police and mayor with girls doing varoius things to keep them from busting you for enslaving and such.

Offline Number76

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #295 on: June 16, 2012, 07:30:06 PM »
You don't trust the matron? Why? Is there a problem with it? I spent some time a while back tracing this out to find the crash when the torturer is taken off shift, and (hopefully) fixed that. Are there other problems? I need to know so I can fix it.

I should start by saying that I am a very lazy brothel owner, especially when it comes to the mundane jobs. After the beginning phase is over and I'm make positive income, when I set a girl to clean/bartend/etc she's likely not going to receive more attention from me unless she starts consistently turning up in the turn summary reports.

Now the reason I don't trust a Matron's judgement when taking girls on/off duty is not because I think she's broken, I want to be clear on that. It is because girls accumulate fatigue at different rates.

For example, if I need 5 girls on a job to meet my customer's demands and I have 7 girls set aside for that job, my experience is that a Matron will take girls on/off duty without considering customer demands. If 4 of the 7 girls are tired those 4 girls get time off. Then the remaining 3 girls cannot meet my customer's demands, which causes my brothel to suffer. Conversely, if all 7 girls are only moderately tired, they will all be placed on duty despite the excess of labor.

To be fair I haven't used a matron extensively in the new patch yet. I also see the possibly that the now working customer service job will probably provide a solution to my complaint. I'll give matrons another shot once I actually put in the time to play up an appropriately sized brothel.

Offline Xela

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #296 on: June 16, 2012, 07:39:48 PM »
Nice to know you think my ideas are absurd.  ::)

 Definitely not in plural :)

For this, there is the small weapon type, which the new function does not check for. A girl can have one weapon that's small enough to be concealed.

 Adding that to a long list of things I did not know.

Actually, as I trip over things that need to be fixed/changed/made different while I'm working on the coding for the job functions, they do land on the very top of the TODO list. And that's really something that should be my decision, not yours. :/
 

 LoL, I got carried away, in our Alkion 'WM2' project I went away for 5 or 6 weeks and when I came back project turned into an RPG with a Sim elements instead of a Sim with RPG element. If I actually participated in arguments during that time, I am fairly sure it could have been prevented so I am sort of emotionally invested into new patches for original WM so there is something to play until Alkion is finished (workload for RPG is 2 or 3 times greater then Sim).

 In any case, apologies if I overstepped.
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Offline b00marrows

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #297 on: June 16, 2012, 08:38:45 PM »
balancing slave/free girls will be hard... my idea is daily loss of happiness for slaves:
every day -2 happiness, maybe extra for loss for bad jobs like whore?

also maybe free girls should gain incresed xp? so they level up faster and gain traits faster.

next i need to ask about the "house percent" bar, as far as i can tell (i never tested/cared about it before) it allows you to changes the amount the girl keeps after doing jobs. i think this should be implemented better:
1. only allowing the free girls to have it?
2. for it to be "stronger" and have more of a positive and negative effect ( for example, new un-trained girls will not accept silly numbers. but as they "get to know you" you can change the amount more freely)?

and the last thing is accomodation:
1. stronger effect for higher levels?
2. lock at mid range for slaves?

this is me just emptying my brain before i go to bed  :D

Offline Kenki

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #298 on: June 16, 2012, 08:56:31 PM »
Slave vs. Free definitely needs advantages/disadvantages based on type. I like the idea of having fees for room & board. Depending on how intricate you want the code to be, here is how it could break down.


Expenses depend on Accommodation level, perfectly fine. Some of the levels are less than average, because, well, who says you have to provide 'Good' room & board for your slaves, you just need them to be able to work. As for free girls, let them pay for that themselves, out of their pocket money. Figure, most will go spend for average accommodations, but their choices can be altered by traits and personal income.


Now each Brothel has a limit to worker capacity, but theoretically, there should also be a lodging capacity(smaller). Slaves obviously require the lodging to survive. Free Girls get their rooms else where in town. But the player could always 'Rent' out extra rooms to the 'Free Girls'. This introduces a new revenue stream for the player, and prevents someone from only employing Slaves. You won't have enough rooms to have full staffing if you don't hire 'Free Girls'. Let the player set room accommodation levels and make Player owned rooms less than the City average (will need a report showing average rates for 'Room & Board'). A Player could house a 'Free Girl' in one of his extra rooms, because his rates are less than the city, he can afford to cut her 'Salary' with out reducing her disposable income. The 'Free Girl' may still be fairly content with the arrangement.


Now, 'Free Girls' SHOULD be more effective at their jobs. They have 'Class Mobility'. The harder they work (More effective), the more $$ they make. They can buy more items, and afford better accommodations. So a 'Free Girl' will want to work high paying jobs, and will strive to serve more customers, as best as she can. Assuming she is comfortable in the job (whoring).  A slave, has no 'Class Mobility'. They cannot buy better lodging, food, or items. They have no incentive to do more than the bear minimum. The only times they might do a better job, is if they think their life would be in danger otherwise, or if they are in 'Love' with the player. Love and Fear are motivators for Slaves. Love will make a slave be slightly more effective. Fear, while making them obedient, may cause them to perform poorly if they begin to have a bad day. The Fear grows and consumes their thoughts, they panic and make mistakes.


Examples:


Advertising: A 'Free Girl' will be more effective at advertising. If she isn't, you will give the job to someone else.
Bartending: A slave may serve the same as a 'Free Girl', but she won't 'Up Sell' beverages.
Singer: A 'Free Girl' will put in more emotion, may be a bit more flirty, to try and increase tips. May even perform encores.
Waitress: A Slave won't 'Up Sell'. If someone makes a pass at her, she may make a mistake and fear drives her into more mistakes. A 'Free Girl' may flirt back and will 'Up Sell'.
Cleaning: If the 'Free Girl' does not try, the job will go to someone else. A Slave will only want to to do the minimum to not get punished.
Whoring: A 'Free Girl' may be turned off by the job and rebel. But if she is comfortable with it, she may put in more effort and 'Up Sell' services to try and gain bigger tips.




The way I see it, 'Free Girls' will serve more customers and the average revenue per customer will be higher than service by a Slave. On non-customer jobs (ex: Cleaning), a Slave will be less effective. The ultimate result should be that 'Free Girls' will allow you to serve more customers, a wider array of services. On an individual basis, a Slave will cost less in upkeep than a 'Free Girl'. It should be possible to coerce a Slave into working ANY job through a high enough PCFear, or PCLove stat. A 'Free Girl' will refuse at a certain point if she does not like the job, ultimately quitting if pushed to far.


So the question is, what are the limitations for 'Free Girls'? What jobs will they not do, and at what 'Salary' can you convince them. Slaves should be more efficient when comparing 'New Hires'. But over time, 'Free Girls' should have greater gains in experience/skills and ultimately perform better when time is invested.

Offline Xela

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Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #299 on: June 16, 2012, 10:05:21 PM »
Slave vs. Free definitely needs advantages/disadvantages based on type. I like the idea of having fees for room & board. Depending on how intricate you want the code to be, here is how it could break down.


Expenses depend on Accommodation level, perfectly fine. Some of the levels are less than average, because, well, who says you have to provide 'Good' room & board for your slaves, you just need them to be able to work. As for free girls, let them pay for that themselves, out of their pocket money. Figure, most will go spend for average accommodations, but their choices can be altered by traits and personal income.


Now each Brothel has a limit to worker capacity, but theoretically, there should also be a lodging capacity(smaller). Slaves obviously require the lodging to survive. Free Girls get their rooms else where in town. But the player could always 'Rent' out extra rooms to the 'Free Girls'. This introduces a new revenue stream for the player, and prevents someone from only employing Slaves. You won't have enough rooms to have full staffing if you don't hire 'Free Girls'. Let the player set room accommodation levels and make Player owned rooms less than the City average (will need a report showing average rates for 'Room & Board'). A Player could house a 'Free Girl' in one of his extra rooms, because his rates are less than the city, he can afford to cut her 'Salary' with out reducing her disposable income. The 'Free Girl' may still be fairly content with the arrangement.


Now, 'Free Girls' SHOULD be more effective at their jobs. They have 'Class Mobility'. The harder they work (More effective), the more $$ they make. They can buy more items, and afford better accommodations. So a 'Free Girl' will want to work high paying jobs, and will strive to serve more customers, as best as she can. Assuming she is comfortable in the job (whoring).  A slave, has no 'Class Mobility'. They cannot buy better lodging, food, or items. They have no incentive to do more than the bear minimum. The only times they might do a better job, is if they think their life would be in danger otherwise, or if they are in 'Love' with the player. Love and Fear are motivators for Slaves. Love will make a slave be slightly more effective. Fear, while making them obedient, may cause them to perform poorly if they begin to have a bad day. The Fear grows and consumes their thoughts, they panic and make mistakes.


Examples:


Advertising: A 'Free Girl' will be more effective at advertising. If she isn't, you will give the job to someone else.
Bartending: A slave may serve the same as a 'Free Girl', but she won't 'Up Sell' beverages.
Singer: A 'Free Girl' will put in more emotion, may be a bit more flirty, to try and increase tips. May even perform encores.
Waitress: A Slave won't 'Up Sell'. If someone makes a pass at her, she may make a mistake and fear drives her into more mistakes. A 'Free Girl' may flirt back and will 'Up Sell'.
Cleaning: If the 'Free Girl' does not try, the job will go to someone else. A Slave will only want to to do the minimum to not get punished.
Whoring: A 'Free Girl' may be turned off by the job and rebel. But if she is comfortable with it, she may put in more effort and 'Up Sell' services to try and gain bigger tips.




The way I see it, 'Free Girls' will serve more customers and the average revenue per customer will be higher than service by a Slave. On non-customer jobs (ex: Cleaning), a Slave will be less effective. The ultimate result should be that 'Free Girls' will allow you to serve more customers, a wider array of services. On an individual basis, a Slave will cost less in upkeep than a 'Free Girl'. It should be possible to coerce a Slave into working ANY job through a high enough PCFear, or PCLove stat. A 'Free Girl' will refuse at a certain point if she does not like the job, ultimately quitting if pushed to far.


So the question is, what are the limitations for 'Free Girls'? What jobs will they not do, and at what 'Salary' can you convince them. Slaves should be more efficient when comparing 'New Hires'. But over time, 'Free Girls' should have greater gains in experience/skills and ultimately perform better when time is invested.

 Class mobility is not directly applicable as for example there is no 'education' stat in WM. Try reading Aesop or other ancient greeks, some slaves were philosophers and scholars and some highborn were uneducated morons. Also you can make any girl a slave overnight so what? She suddenly falls into another social class and does significantly worse  than before? It's not that simple, best way to offset slavery seems to be upkeep and maybe a very harsh psychological damage due to enslavement.

 Also if by 'Class Mobility' you suggest different social circles/education/opportunities and so on, it makes even less sense as we have already discussed a similar topic. There is no way of knowing a background of a slave since in most societies that allowed slavery free citizens of your own city/state cannot just be randomly enslaved, in WM there is no problem with that.

 So your approach is not even close to being as bulletproof as you imagined.

 In any case, if you want to try and explain the idea of social mobility to every WM player and how it effects WM mechanics in place of explaining upkeep you have to pay for a slave, be my guest :D

 Free girls is a different topic... There are other variables but the main issue that has to be fixed is allowing them to quit if they do not wish to work for you. They already would more often than not say no to the jobs they dislike until you manage to shower them with cash lowering their demands.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 10:08:31 PM by Xela »
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