Pink Petal Games

PyTFall => PyTFall: Game design => Topic started by: rudistoned on June 15, 2013, 06:54:50 PM

Title: <-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 15, 2013, 06:54:50 PM
Every game like PyTFall has to solve this problem: How can the game know which picture it should use to illustrate a scene? Several solutions are possible. For various reasons we decided to use tags to describe our images in a way the game can understand.

What are tags?


Tags are keywords, labels that describe the contents of the picture. A picture of Sakura running through the woods, trying to escape some evil monster, could have the tags "Sakura", "run", "afraid" and "forest" and a picture showing Tenten jogging on the beach could have the tags "Tenten", "run", "beach".

How are tags added to images?

Image Tagger (see release thread (http://forum.otherworldgame.net/index.php?topic=281.0)) allows to edit image tags in a graphical user interface. This tool will store the tags as XMP metadata inside the images.


How does the game learn which tags are on which image?

The game searches the directory tree starting at "pytfall/game/content/chars" for files named "tags.json". Those files contain a list of tags for every image and are read by the game.


How does the game decide which image should illustrate a scene?


The game knows which image has which tags. To find an image, the game uses a set of tags that describe the scene. For example, Aegis dancing with a nobleman in a bar could be described with the tags "Aegis", "dance", "aristocrat", "bar". Using these tags, the game looks for an image that has all of these tags and returns it.
Various more elaborate search methods are possible and could be used if necessary.


How can I add images to an existing character?

The character images are located in subdirectories of "pytfall/game/content/chars".
To add images to any of these characters:
1) copy your image files into the folder where the other images of your character are
2) find the "tags.json" file where the other images of your character are described. You can open the "tags.json" files with any text editor.
3) add entries similar to those you find in that file. Use only tags that are already there, or the game will not be able to use your new
images. Tags the game currently understands (yes, some of those are wrong; expect changes, its an early alpha):
0quest0, 0quest1, 0quest2, Aegis, Chie_Satonaka, Fuuka_Yamagishi, Hinata, Mitsuru_Kirijo, Naoto_Shirogane, Rise_Kujikawa, Sakura, Tenten, Tifa, Yukari_Takeba, Yukiko_Amagi, anal, battle, battle_sprite, bdsm, blowjob, combat, date, datebeach, death, ecchi, ent, group, haruhi, les, les0, mast, nude, profile, profileangry, profilehappy, profileneural, profileneutral, profilesad, quest, quest1, quest2, questangry, questhappy, questneutral, questnormal, questsad, rest, sex, shop, strip, tenticles


How can I add a new character?

1) The characters ressources are located in subfolders of "pytfall/game/content/chars". Create a new folder there and name it after your character.
2) Copy at least one profile image into the folder you just created.
3) Create a "tags.json" file and add all the images you copied into said folder. Look at the "tags.json" files of other characters to learn how they should look.
4) Create a "data.xml" file for your new character. Look at the "data.xml" files of other characters to learn how they should look.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 15, 2013, 07:00:23 PM
I selected the first images with the new system today (the code is available in tags branch on SF). Only profile images are currently selected via the new system.

What should happen if no image for this particular tag combination can be found? For example, haruhi has currently no strip images.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on June 16, 2013, 06:46:05 AM
I selected the first images with the new system today (the code is available in tags branch on SF). Only profile images are currently selected via the new system.

What should happen if no image for this particular tag combination can be found? For example, haruhi has currently no strip images.

Right now it falls back on profile pics... I think this is a decent solution, at least for now.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 16, 2013, 06:54:18 AM
Alright, I've implemented the same behaviour (profile pics as fallback) for the new system now. I don't see any problems currently, so I'll merge with master now. Any objections?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on June 16, 2013, 06:57:32 AM
Alright, I've implemented the same behaviour (profile pics as fallback) for the new system now. I don't see any problems currently, so I'll merge with master now. Any objections?

If it work and doesn't break anything, be my guest. I'll take a look at it right after the merge.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 16, 2013, 08:11:37 AM
I tested the elements I modified (next day reports, girl profile pics) and could not find any problems, so I pushed my changes into the SF master branch :-)
Please let me know if you run into any problems or have questions.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on June 16, 2013, 08:29:40 AM
I tested the elements I modified (next day reports, girl profile pics) and could not find any problems, so I pushed my changes into the SF master branch :-)
Please let me know if you run into any problems or have questions.

Looks good, no question so far but it will take some time to figure out new code :)

No problems to run into either!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 06:42:56 AM
What image tags are we going to use?

The once we use now obviously... however what other categories do we need/will we use?

First question we have to answer is how to approach tagging in itself, do we simply load an insane amount of tags into the game and try to describe every image in detail or do we agree on a limited selection of tags and expand it as we add new modules to the game (like slave training that will require new tags and images for example). Then we can start coming up with possible tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 05, 2013, 08:24:17 AM
Tags are useless if you won't use them in the code. That version of image tagger I tried recently had a lot of potentially useful tags already. What do you think of them?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 09:00:29 AM
Tags are useless if you won't use them in the code. That version of image tagger I tried recently had a lot of potentially useful tags already. What do you think of them?

0.2 right? The one Rudi released this week?

Yeap, that would work, but the trouble is that we could end up with a number of useless tags and for thousands of images, it means more loading time. But tags are really easy to add and remove through JSON.

From what I gather, you favor the maximum tagging off the bat approach?

In any case, we need to know CW's opinion on this one before making a decision, he was interested in tagging system as well.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 05, 2013, 09:08:52 AM
Not sure. Do we need tags for places, for example? Like beach, garden, forest, street, room? Some characters have them, some not.
I guess we could use more universal bikini tag instead of beach though.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 09:15:57 AM
Not sure. Do we need tags for places, for example? Like beach, garden, forest, street, room? Some characters have them, some not.
I guess we could use more universal bikini tag instead of beach though.

Places tags are amongst the most useful I think...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 05, 2013, 09:26:58 AM
Well, for profile we could use happy/sad/neutral/angry(/afraid? some girls have it too). Also some profile pictures can be used for meeting in the city and some can't, so I guess we need meeting tag too. Or maybe we should use places tags for it instead?

Places we already have are city, park=forest (something with trees), room (any), bathroom (with girl taking a bath usually), beach(=bikini) won't hurt too. Some girls have casino and bar pics too.
What could we need in the future? Maybe dungeon too (any not bdsm).

Do we need any specifics for sex categories? Doggy/straight? Handjob/whateverjob?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 09:42:32 AM
Well, for profile we could use happy/sad/neutral/angry(/afraid? some girls have it too). Also some profile pictures can be used for meeting in the city and some can't, so I guess we need meeting tag too. Or maybe we should use places tags for it instead?

There is a mood dropdown window under character, we'll use that to specify the kind. Perfect for the city would be cleaned up images without the background, cleaned or no bg should definitely be a tag, as well as solid bg (one color)... we'll work on that as time permits. Once we have places, I can add events like girl/customer having sex in the garden if that's available and also prevent pictures of sex in nature or caves or beach popping up for brothel...

Places we already have are city, park=forest (something with trees), room (any), bathroom (with girl taking a bath usually), beach(=bikini) won't hurt too. Some girls have casino and bar pics too.
What could we need in the future? Maybe dungeon too (any not bdsm).

I think park/forest should simply become "nature", room = "building", I don't think there are many bathroom pics, maybe "onsen" category for any of that kind?

Future is unpredictable... slavetraining and dungeon are not even designed as concepts yet.

Do we need any specifics for sex categories? Doggy/straight? Handjob/whateverjob?

Yeah, It's a must, we'll be able to write better texts during jobs.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 05, 2013, 10:00:34 AM
Perfect for the city would be cleaned up images without the background, cleaned or no bg should definitely be a tag
I guess we already have quest tag/category for it? So we won't need to use profile pics for meetings then.

I think park/forest should simply become "nature", room = "building", I don't think there are many bathroom pics, maybe "onsen" category for any of that kind?
Ok, so nature, building, onsen, bikini=beach, street. If none of these, then the picture should be considered as universal.

Yeah, It's a must, we'll be able to write better texts during jobs.
We should decide what specifics we going to use for sex, anal, bj, group and bdsm (maybe mast?) then, even if we don't use bdsm yet.


What about nude catagory/tag? You avoided answering last time I asked you, so I'm asking again: how are you going to use it?  :)

We also need strip tag for strip category, I guess. Same for dance, maid, etiquette, beauty, battle for battle sprites, date, rest, shop.

What to do with pics where girl eating, playing some game or musical instrument, etc? Right now they are mostly in ent category.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 05, 2013, 11:16:02 AM
the trouble is that we could end up with a number of useless tags and for thousands of images, it means more loading time.
IMHO, the impact on loading time between having 5 and having 25 tags per image, even for thousands of images, is quite small. Why?
Two scenarios:
1) If you load a prebuilt database (pickled object, or even JSON), reading that data will happen in about a second.
2) If you load the tags from XMP metadata, what takes long is opening thousands of files, read a couple of bytes and close the file again. If 200 or 1000 bytes are read each time will not have a huge impact because both will be BY FAR to slow to do it every time the game loads.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 05:00:07 PM
I guess we already have quest tag/category for it? So we won't need to use profile pics for meetings then.
Ok, so nature, building, onsen, bikini=beach, street. If none of these, then the picture should be considered as universal.
We should decide what specifics we going to use for sex, anal, bj, group and bdsm (maybe mast?) then, even if we don't use bdsm yet.

True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...

What about nude catagory/tag? You avoided answering last time I asked you, so I'm asking again: how are you going to use it?  :)

Missed it, I think it'll disappear as a category and will be replaces with nude clothing tag, for every other category separately... unless someone got a better idea?

We also need strip tag for strip category, I guess. Same for dance, maid, etiquette, beauty, battle for battle sprites, date, rest, shop.

I think battle clean or battle_sprite are better, seems like it should be a main category for the picture. What we call battle right now can be battle? Most of the other tags, tagger already has.

What to do with pics where girl eating, playing some game or musical instrument, etc? Right now they are mostly in ent category.

This falls into: I have no idea what the future holds category, I think musical instrument is an overkill at this or prolly any point. Music by itself, might be an extra tag for profile category. I am still trying to get my head straight on the whole tagging thing, seems like it requires a different level of thinking than our old system.

IMHO, the impact on loading time between having 5 and having 25 tags per image, even for thousands of images, is quite small. Why?
Two scenarios:
1) If you load a prebuilt database (pickled object, or even JSON), reading that data will happen in about a second.
2) If you load the tags from XMP metadata, what takes long is opening thousands of files, read a couple of bytes and close the file again. If 200 or 1000 bytes are read each time will not have a huge impact because both will be BY FAR to slow to do it every time the game loads.

Oki, I'm jumpy about the performance hit because I just got rid of a bottleneck and improved our loading time from 16 to 2 secs... We'll tag the images so much, they'll try to delete themselves   ;D ???  ;D
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 05, 2013, 06:09:13 PM
True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...
If you expect me to mass delete backgrounds on profile pics, be ready for 2 packs per month at best  :D
I think we do need some kind of tag for meeting pics, either quest or backgroundless, etc.

Missed it, I think it'll disappear as a category and will be replaces with nude clothing tag, for every other category separately... unless someone got a better idea?
Hm, the difference between strip and nude are circumstances and facial expression. So it could be presex pic or something, like you mentioned in this (http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=1759.msg22163#msg22163) post. Still, we really could just add nude tag and use it with any other category, like building or rest.

Music by itself, might be an extra tag for profile category. I am still trying to get my head straight on the whole tagging thing, seems like it requires a different level of thinking than our old system.
I guess all ent pics should go to profile or rest categoty then. Games are type of rest, after all.

-----------------------------
I'll give it some thought and will try to form a list of subcategories for hentai pics tomorrow.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 05, 2013, 06:56:22 PM
If you expect me to mass delete backgrounds on profile pics, be ready for 2 packs per month at best  :D
I think we do need some kind of tag for meeting pics, either quest or backgroundless, etc.

I don't get it... There wasn't even a hint of suggestion to remove all backgrounds... Also, there is a RenPy script that can remove simple backgrounds automatically just fine, Roman wrote it, I haven't tried it yet.

I can't tell from your post if you realize that more than one category can be called and game will do it's best to pic the best match.

For example, if we call girl.show("profile", "happy", "no bg", resize=(300, 700)) it will do it's best to find what we would consider a questhappy pic, then if not available, try simple background, then any profile pic... how or why does that not work for you and why is adding quest main category better?

Hm, the difference between strip and nude are circumstances and facial expression. So it could be presex pic or something, like you mentioned in this (http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=1759.msg22163#msg22163) post. Still, we really could just add nude tag and use it with any other category, like building or rest.
I guess all ent pics should go to profile or rest categoty then. Games are type of rest, after all.

Strip/Profile/Dance could be main categories, rest are subtags... I think girl taking cloth off is stripping or dancing naked near a pole is stripping. Naked can be a subtag for many categories.

-----------------------------
I'll give it some thought and will try to form a list of subcategories for hentai pics tomorrow.

I've been thinking about it as well... we need to come up with a structure for tags and be able to put it in a clear concept...

Main Tag --> Subtag (amount as main Tag requires) --> Location (or simple/no bg) --> Clothing --> Mood. Tags as they are now are good but they are confusing as I they are missing stuff like profile, battle_sprite, date that we're used to and that have been successful in PyTFall so far. Also there are no "simple/no bg" tags (weird btw) and I am not sure that looking at tags in active/passive sex, I understand the intended difference between the two categories.

Girl ID can prolly be drawn from a folder she's in by the game.

EDIT:
Oh, before I forget: One other tag that might be useful in some cases and related to sex pics: partner hidden, partner visible.

EDIT:
This is a maybe... but we might add quality tag from 1 to 10, like "q8" and display those according to girls level. Just an idea, I am not insisting on it or anything.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 06, 2013, 02:53:57 AM

I think it would be best for some categories (like ent or sex) to not chose action first and then look for appropriate pic, but to check what pics are there and chose from actions accordingly.
I believe that could really smooth things a lot (at the cost of sacrificing realism a bit).


True about the quest tag, but cleared up (bg removed) profile is basically quest, now with tagging system, we could in theory get rid of quest tag all together...

I was using quest category for "novel" sprites and I would like to retain a separate tag for these, as they are a lot harder to make then just a profile pics without bg. (novel pics can be used in a place of bg-less pic, but not the other way round.)

...and I think I would still prefer a "meeting" tag for profile over forcing bg-less pics.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 04:03:02 AM
how or why does that not work for you and why is adding quest main category better?
Not main category, more like tag. Some profile pics are more (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28122%29.jpg) suitable for meeting, some are less (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28134%29.jpg), no matter background or place, it's just a quick example.

This is a maybe... but we might add quality tag from 1 to 10, like "q8" and display those according to girls level. Just an idea, I am not insisting on it or anything.
I don't get this one  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 06, 2013, 04:08:57 AM
As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)



she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm
melee, guns (modern stuff) for combat
titty, blow/hand/foot job for blowjob
lingerie,nekomimi for beauty
sport, cosplay, music for ent
sex, bukkake for group
maid, bunny for maid
taking a nap, bath, reading a book for rest
meeting (clothes and expression that is ok for being outside in public) for profile
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 07:37:29 AM
Yup. Also tri/strap/lick/etc for les and hand/device for mast, if we need that kind of accuracy.

Maybe cooking/eating and drunk tags too.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 09:31:56 AM
I think it would be best for some categories (like ent or sex) to not chose action first and then look for appropriate pic, but to check what pics are there and chose from actions accordingly.
I believe that could really smooth things a lot (at the cost of sacrificing realism a bit).
I was using quest category for "novel" sprites and I would like to retain a separate tag for these, as they are a lot harder to make then just a profile pics without bg. (novel pics can be used in a place of bg-less pic, but not the other way round.)

...and I think I would still prefer a "meeting" tag for profile over forcing bg-less pics.

I don't understand what you mean by not choosing an action first and then look for the appropriate pic. We are not building Skynet here so our game is not that smart, it can only look for what we tell it to look  ::) Can you give an example?

Ok, than do we want quest to be subtag of profile or tag category in itself? Meeting tag, do you mean like conversation/encounter?


Not main category, more like tag. Some profile pics are more (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28122%29.jpg) suitable for meeting, some are less (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28134%29.jpg), no matter background or place, it's just a quick example.

Yeap well, if CW meant by meeting tag what I think he did, that issue is solved. BTW: That pic of yours has suggested me another two rather important categories! Time of day (morning, day, evening, night) and season (spring, summer, autumn, winter). It might be very important for consistency.

I don't get this one  :)

Well, I am not a big fan of such approach myself, but many people seem to like it. Even amongst decent pics, some are obviously better, some are obviously worse. If we tag with a quality tag, we can have game automatically display better pics only as girl's level increases/quests are completed. Also, it would be very easy to make something like that optional... If lower quality pictures are not available, game will automatically choose better pics. Like I've said, something like this exists in numerous games and I've always spoke against such an approach in Sims,  but I thought 'll bring it up so we can kill or implements this right off the bat.

As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)

Good exercise, I'll take look at booru to see what tags we might need. Otherwise... You've had a list of tags we use for the game in your db folder but it's gone now so:

battle_sprite
battle

anal
blowjob <-- might be killed off... in favor of more precise acts?
les
sex <-- might be killed off... in favor of more precise acts? Note: When I got to subtags, it turned out that sex/anal/lesbian as tags are very much required to avoid confusion and other unnecessary tags!

date
datebeach <-- we kill off in favor of date --> location --> tags combination
ent
nude <-- definitely a tag, we already have it
profile <-- category as we're used to them...
profileangry <-- gone as a tag
profilesad <-- gone as a tag
profilehappy <-- gone as a tag
profileneutral <-- gone as a tag
questneutral <-- kill in favor of quest + neutral tags (neutral is called indifferent in the software btw.)
questhappy <-- same as above
questangry <-- same
questsad <-- same
rest <-- tag now... sleep maybe as well? I am not sure, there are some tags like this under actions already
shop <-- we keep as tag, call it shopping?
strip <-- We keep as tag

As for tags:
 I checked all my girlpacks and these are subtypes of pics that were present in quantity that I consider worthwhile for making texts or actions out of them: (from the viewpoint that all old namebased categories remain)



she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm
melee, guns (modern stuff) for combat
titty, blow/hand/foot job for blowjob
lingerie,nekomimi for beauty
sport, cosplay, music for ent
sex, bukkake for group
maid, bunny for maid
taking a nap, bath, reading a book for rest
meeting (clothes and expression that is ok for being outside in public) for profile

So, required tags from your perspective:
- classic weapons
- modern weapons
- sex tags I've covered separately
- lingerie
- neko we have as cat
- maid we have (do you have new tagger? It has like 50 - 70 tags in it by Rudi (some are a bit confusing))
- bunny we already have
- book we have as reading, should simply be combined with rest
- sport (we have exercising, running and fighting, but sport might be a decent addon)
- cosplay (awesome for some random events)
- music we have musician, it might work.
- nap we have resting, meditating, we can add nap if you have pics for it
- bath we have bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations
- meeting (date + profile combo will not work here???)

Other ideas:
- daytime
- season
- partner hidden
- partner visible
- no bg (transparent png with background removed, some categories imply that...)
- simple bg (one tone or plain background)

Yup. Also tri/strap/lick/etc for les and hand/device for mast, if we need that kind of accuracy.

Maybe cooking/eating and drunk tags too.

- I did cover sex acts, we definitely could use those.
- cooking we have this
- eating Nice one! Addon to rest category and rest job as well some possible events.
- drunk Really rare I believe, it could be useful for events... maybe even to display if we add the effect later...

Sex categories we break into:
Foreplay??:
- lick pussy
- lick anus
- caress tits
- lick tits
- hug
- kiss
- strip

BJ Cat most from SM:
- titsjob
- blowjob
- footjob
- handjob
- 69

Solo:
- mastrubation
- dildo
- anal dildo (?)
-

Sex:
- missionary
- doggy (sraight) (without normalsex/sex tag, doggy can be mistaken for anal... maybe we should keep normalsex after all)
- ontop
- onside (research required for a better name I guess)
- standing
- suspended (girl is clinging to the guy, can be a part of standing)
- sitting

Anal:
- doggy
- missionary
- ontop
- spoon (mostly unclear if it's normal or anal, but since anal pics are less common, we can use it this way)

Lesbian:
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag)
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
- strapon (pussy assumed)
- strapon (anal added as different tag)
- dildo (pussy assumed)
- dildo (anal as different tag)
- dildo joined (pussy assumed)
- dildo joined (anal added as a different tad)
- kiss (naked in bed obviously, les pics are not that common for many girls)
- caress (same as above, could be both at the same time (often are))

Group: Not applicable right now as we don't have the code?

Submission: Same thing as above, do we tag it now or later?

----------------------------------------
Link to the software if you don't have it:

Download

ImageTagger_0_2_Windows.7z (8.7 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!K4g1DLZZ!eSs7gkzNDWLNm3laJa69WgrK6nA6lcEiiBC_1kipvjE

ImageTagger_0_2_Linux.7z (11.5 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!Lh4WQK6K!H0F0WTqxp2Gk60nQeKFp4gOuKy0Jq4544S0Z2wRMDvY

Software will not likely get any better logically from this point on and most if not all improvements will be cosmetic and convenience related (what I am saying is that it does exactly what it supposed to and does it well so we can start tagging as soon as we're done with discussions :) )

Also, Rudi requested that if at all possible, we should use his categories as much as possible so unification and transfer between games is possible, obviously many thing can be straightened out with code though. But most of his tags are useful, although, I have many objections to style... it should be more generic if used for multiple games but we can straighten most of that out by simply changing the layout and keeping most of the tags as they are.

-----------------------------------------------
Anyway... your thoughts...

Still to decide:

- Do we try to tag images for slave-training and dungeon NOW or when we have them?

- Final version on all tag categories.

- Layout discussion (making software PyTFall friendly)

- Final layout discussion

btw:

We forgot about pregnancy...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
Time of day (morning, day, evening, night) and season (spring, summer, autumn, winter). It might be very important for consistency.
But we don't have that detailed calendar, right? And we don't have day/night shifts too, like in some games. So I'm not sure how you can use such tags in code at all.

Also, often it's quite difficult to distinguish morning from day or spring from summer (yeah, I don't even know when sakura blossoms in Japan  :) ). I guess we could use the most obvious tags though: winter/snow and night. If it's not winter/snow or night, then no tag.

Even amongst decent pics, some are obviously better, some are obviously worse.
Ugh, sounds like a whole new bunch of work with little return. If people will ask for that (I hope they won't), let's add it after 1.0 (or 2.0  :D ).

rest <-- tag now... sleep maybe as well? I am not sure, there are some tags like this under actions already
Yup, rest is quite unobvious tag. Sleeping or lying on sofa with music player or a drink, etc., ie passive form of recreation should be here, I guess. At the same time some rest pics could be used as building profile too.

- meeting (date + profile combo will not work here???)
Actually yes, that might work as well.

drunk Really rare I believe, it could be useful for events... maybe even to display if we add the effect later...
Yup, it's rare for some characters while common for others, depending on their origin. So I'm not sure if we need it or not.

- lick pussy
- lick anus
Maybe just lick? Such pics are quite rare though.

- caress tits
- lick tits
Just caress tits?

Solo:
- mastrubation
- dildo
Vibrator, anal beads, some random item (like a bone or a weapon, I'm not joking)...
Maybe just one "devices" tag?

- spoon (mostly unclear if it's normal or anal, but since anal pics are less common, we can use it this way)
Often you can't tell if it's anal or just doggy. So we definitely should use such pics with both tags.

Group: Not applicable right now as we don't have the code?
One thing I can propose is if girl either alone there, or there are several girls on the picture. And bukkake, like Cherry said.

Submission: Same thing as above, do we tag it now or later?
Do we try to tag images for slave-training and dungeon NOW or when we have them?
Now. Like Cherry said, she is restrained but alone in pics (just bondage)/someone is visibly doing something with her for bdsm. So it's bdsm or bdsm+sex/mast/anal/group/torture (or something, there are too much ways to hurt anyway, we cannot give a tag for everything).

Dungeon non bdsm pics are very rare btw.

We forgot about pregnancy...
About tentacles too  :)

Even if we'll have pregnancy at some point, such pics are superrare even for one category. So I suggest to come up with some way to avoid them, like cloning or another dimension.
-------------------------------

Also there are pictures where girls just lying covered in semen, they probably could use a separate tag, or we could use them for all non les categories.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 06, 2013, 11:01:47 AM

I don't understand what you mean by not choosing an action first and then look for the appropriate pic. We are not building Skynet here so our game is not that smart, it can only look for what we tell it to look  ::) Can you give an example?
Sorry, I'm just bad at describing...
We...
1) choose a main tag category (for example BJ)
2) randomly select a picture from it
3) check secondary tags on that selected picture and display relevant text

so for example a girl with 10 BJ pictures tagged as 9x BJ/titsjob and 1x BJ/- (no secondary tag) will spend 90% of the time giving titsjobs, 10% giving blowjob and never give a handjob, because she don't have a pics for it.

[size=78%]do you have new tagger? It has like 50 - 70 tags in it by Rudi (some are a bit confusing))[/size]

Nope, sorry...  so if something seems to be a duplicate on my list, it probably is
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 11:20:08 AM
I gotta leave for a while so I don't have much time to reply but from what I gather:

1) Combine some sex subcats.

2) Preg pics instead of profile on advanced pregnancy and we can stop there? I can't find a good solution to display nothing at the moment.

3) With seasons/daytime I meant preventing pics with night/snow popping on a day-summer background, we can simplify, as long as we achieve that goal.

4) Dildo would fall unto device too?

5) Good catch on seamen covered girls... we'll need to think of a tag for that.

6) We either do bondage/dungeon properly or not at all

7) Tentacles/bestiality as in WM????

8) @CW, game will launch events for pics that are available, if non exist, it will try and choose the next best thing... there is also no "main category" as considered by code, it's only how we ourselves think about the tag system. Requests and checks for tags will be guided by code.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 11:31:12 AM
Preg pics instead of profile on advanced pregnancy and we can stop there? I can't find a good solution to display nothing at the moment.
Pregnant girl will be unavailable after 2-3 month of impregnation until childbirth?

With seasons/daytime I meant preventing pics with night/snow popping on a day-summer background, we can simplify, as long as we achieve that goal.
Then let's use winter and night tags.

Dildo would fall unto device too?
Nope. It's common enough.

We either do bondage/dungeon properly or not at all
We don't have a system yet. So I propose to use already obvious tags for bdsm pics, I mentioned them already. They will be useful anyway.

Tentacles/bestiality as in WM?
I dislike bestiality, but tentacles pics could be used like in SM (rape events). I don't care either way, it's up to you.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 01:56:26 PM
Pregnant girl will be unavailable after 2-3 month of impregnation until childbirth?

Pregnancy in brothels in general is concedered not a very good thing, many loyal girls would be thrown out because of it... In WM/OW it's like nothing is happening at all. Player would have to decide what to do in such cases. I don't think it's a bad compromise. Also there are one or two cases like Ariel --> Melody where a new girl can be found only by player impregnating the mother...

Then let's use winter and night tags.

- autumn (usually apparent by looking at nature)
- winter
- night

Nope. It's common enough.

Ok... so:

- masturbation
- dildo
- device

We don't have a system yet. So I propose to use already obvious tags for bdsm pics, I mentioned them already. They will be useful anyway.

We'll need to come up with a list of tags, maybe later/tomorrow, I am to drunk right now :(

I dislike bestiality, but tentacles pics could be used like in SM (rape events). I don't care either way, it's up to you.

How is it up to me if I am not the main pack maker for the game...?

There are plenty of pics for it for many girls and we can block it with code all together or for girls that don't have the pics...

But if you mind making the packs, we can just leave the whole thing for the future, I am sure that there are people who enjoy it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 06, 2013, 02:25:26 PM
Are you sure that we will have use for all those new categories?
I want to ask, because pics with groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles (I'm personally against them) and some others couldn't fit in the old categories, so I didn't download them for any of the girls and adding them now would mean some additional work. 
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 03:31:18 PM
Are you sure that we will have use for all those new categories?
I want to ask, because pics with groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles (I'm personally against them) and some others couldn't fit in the old categories, so I didn't download them for any of the girls and adding them now would mean some additional work.

Categories like groping, foreplay. I actually went through your packs and found some decent candidates for those categories. Also, in the software, it;s just one extra click, so it should be a big deal. Like always, if you have an alternative approach or system, lets see it, maybe it's better and makes more sense.

- We still have some stuff to discuss and nothing has been said on tags layout yet, unless everyone wants to make their own version, we need to come up with a setup.

Well, like I've said, we work on what we're feel that we're comfortable with. I will personally support lolicon, bestiality, bdsm and basically everything in the spirit of the original WM, but that will be after 1.0 because there is a lot of code, events, quest manager system, gui enhancements that have to be written as it is. Also stuff that is not low friendly in some countries will always be released as extension packs and never with the game itself.

So for now, we'll make simpler packs and normal events, we have more than enough to do :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 06, 2013, 03:36:17 PM
Also, Rudi requested that if at all possible, we should use his categories as much as possible so unification and transfer between games is possible, obviously many thing can be straightened out with code though. But most of his tags are useful, although, I have many objections to style... it should be more generic if used for multiple games
Just to be clear: I am definitely open for suggestions on better tags. Some that are needed are probably not yet in there, others might not be necessary. The meaning of some tags might not be obvious, so they should be renamed. I'm curious what you guys will come up with. It would definitely be great if Pytherworld and PyTFall could use the same tags.
Regarding style I suppose you are talking about the user interface and visual presentation of the available tags?

5) Good catch on seamen covered girls... we'll need to think of a tag for that.
I always thought that was called bukkake? The wikipedia article (they have an article on basically anything...) suggests that bukkake is the name for the sexual act and a woman covered in semen would be the result. Close enough, don't you think?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 03:37:37 PM
How is it up to me if I am not the main pack maker for the game...?
It's a matter of several minutes per pack for gelboruu/danboruu. And a lot of characters have such images. You have to decide if you want to make such events in the game. Maybe after 1.0 though.

groping/foreplay, semen-covered, tentacles
I didn't download groping/foreplay and tentacles either, and I have to say there are not many groping/foreplay pics for my characters anyway.
As for semen-covered, they are universal non-les pics, so of course I downloaded them  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 06, 2013, 03:42:35 PM
I always thought that was called bukkake?
I believe bukkake is subtype of group sex (I wonder if I should actually link some examples from my packs...), while s-covered picture could mean very intense normal sex or even bj.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 03:43:55 PM
The meaning of some tags might not be obvious,

Customizable tool-tip or special field for explanations would be a decent addon even for more obvious tags and combinations for upcoming versions of the tagger.

PS, in context of tags, I do not understand the difference between between passive and active sex categories at the moment, do we need -/+ at all?

Regarding style I suppose you are talking about the user interface and visual presentation of the available tags?

Yeap.

bukkake is the name for the sexual act and a woman covered in semen would be the result. Close enough, don't you think?

Depends on where you get the definition from and how much Japanese porn called bukkake you've actually seen :) I think you're WAY off here...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Maybe after 1.0 though.

Sounds good.

As for semen-covered, they are universal non-les pics, so of course I downloaded them  :)

That's in, I already got a couple of ideas for job events for it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 06, 2013, 04:31:49 PM
PS, in context of tags, I do not understand the difference between between passive and active sex categories at the moment, do we need -/+ at all?
"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.
Some sex tags would not need it. For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons. I added the + anyway for consistency.


Depends on where you get the definition from and how much Japanese porn called bukkake you've actually seen :) I think you're WAY off here...
I went with what Wikipedia says, so I must be right ;)
My exposure to Japanese porn has been limited. Based on the usage of the term on American porn sites, "several/many guys ejaculating on a girl" seems to be quite accurate though.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 04:37:26 PM
"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.
Some sex tags would not need it. For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons. I added the + anyway for consistency.

Bloody confusing...

I went with what Wikipedia says, so I must be right ;)
My exposure to Japanese porn has been limited. Based on the usage of the term on American porn sites, "several/many guys ejaculating on a girl" seems to be quite accurate though.

So Dark's images are not bukkake...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 06, 2013, 04:49:47 PM
Bloody confusing...
Better/more convenient solutions are always welcome :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 06, 2013, 04:59:07 PM
For example, +blowjob could be just blowjob as a girl can't get a blowjob for anatomical reasons.

Yeah... girls are headless twats... no arguing there.

"+finger pussy" means the main character of the image puts her fingers into some other girls pussy
"-finger pussy" means someone puts his/her fingers into the main characters pussy
+- is the easiest way I've seen to convey this difference.

My guess is that will not be required. Simpler is often better. I still think simply adding passive/active tags would be a better bet and avoid tag repeats.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 01:52:19 AM
Yeah... girls are headless twats... no arguing there.
So, you are basically saying: If a woman sucks a man's dick, she "gets a blowjob"? That's bad English. AFAIK, the expression is to "give a blowjob", because its an active act.


My guess is that will not be required. Simpler is often better. I still think simply adding passive/active tags would be a better bet and avoid tag repeats.
That depends on how unambiguous you want the tag information to be.
Consider girl on girl action: You are making an image pack of Belldandy and have an image where Belldandy fingers the pussy of an unnamed girl. You tag it with "finger pussy" and "one girl". On another image, you see Belldandy being fingered by an unnamed girl. Again, you tag it with "finger pussy" and "one girl". Without differentiating between passive and active acts, those two different situations get the same tags.
Now, adding an "active" or "passive" tag to the image would solve the above problem, that's true, but only because it's a simple situation. Add another sex act happening at the same time and it breaks, because you don't know to which act the "active" or "passive" tag refers to.
Consider Belldandy having a good time with the girl from above and after warming up with fingering they start licking pussies too. As soon as one starts doing something the other girl does not do, you can't tell who does what from the tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 02:48:06 AM
So, you are basically saying: If a woman sucks a man's dick, she "gets a blowjob"? That's bad English. AFAIK, the expression is to "give a blowjob", because its an active act.

If we were writing an essay to be graded... I just googled "girl gets a blowjob"
and there seem to be enough confused people on the topic.

That depends on how unambiguous you want the tag information to be.

To be able to describe every picture in detail, we are likely to need thousands of tags, it's not practical.

Consider Belldandy having a good time with the girl from above and after warming up with fingering they start licking pussies too. As soon as one starts doing something the other girl does not do, you can't tell who does what from the tags.

Like in animation? If not, don't tag it either way if you can't tell.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 03:41:32 AM
If we were writing an essay to be graded... I just googled "girl gets a blowjob"
and there seem to be enough confused people on the topic.
Google gives me 7 million hits for that term, I give you that. However, I suspect most of these hits will be girls getting their pussy licked, not sucking some guys dick. If you use "blowjob" for every kind of oral sex, it makes the tag less useful because it carries less specific information.
The goal of the whole tagging system is to provide information on the images in form of keywords. Yes, this is about language. If we choose to use terms with several meanings, it becomes unclear what the image actually shows.

To be able to describe every picture in detail, we are likely to need thousands of tags, it's not practical.
Let me answer you with an equally ridiculous statement: We don't need detail.  Lets just label every image with sexual content with the tag "sex" and we only need one tag! Great, right?

Now let's stop playing dumb for a moment and think: The more detailed the description of the image gets, the more tags we will need for it, that is obvious. If you want to make the argument that +- sex tags are too much detail for PyTFall, that's fine. Don't pretend I want to use thousands of tags to describe the images just so you can tell me that is not practical. I know that already and you know that I know ;)

However, I also know that descriptions of group sex scenes (starting with threesomes) are very hard without +- sex tags. Even with them, they are hard, so I've been thinking about alternate solutions - unsuccessfully, so far.

Like in animation? If not, don't tag it either way if you can't tell.
Come on...
Nobody is talking about animation. I am telling you that you will get the same tags for images with different contents. Consider this, using your active/passive approach:
Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl, while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl, while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 04:44:38 AM
Google gives me 7 million hits for that term, I give you that. However, I suspect most of these hits will be girls getting their pussy licked, not sucking some guys dick. If you use "blowjob" for every kind of oral sex, it makes the tag less useful because it carries less specific information.

Try the very first video, it's quite good :)

The goal of the whole tagging system is to provide information on the images in form of keywords. Yes, this is about language. If we choose to use terms with several meanings, it becomes unclear what the image actually shows.

We just have "blowjob" tag, without give/get.

Let me answer you with an equally ridiculous statement: We don't need detail.  Lets just label every image with sexual content with the tag "sex" and we only need one tag! Great, right?

It only sounds ridiculous from the perspective of the tagging system you wrote, otherwise, plenty of good games can be found that did just that and were really advanced logically otherwise. (what I mean to say is that it is possible to work with a LOT of tags and possible to work with 1), point is to find the acceptable middleground.

Now let's stop playing dumb for a moment and think: The more detailed the description of the image gets, the more tags we will need for it, that is obvious. If you want to make the argument that +- sex tags are too much detail for PyTFall, that's fine. Don't pretend I want to use thousands of tags to describe the images just so you can tell me that is not practical. I know that already and you know that I know ;)

I've been thinking about it and came to conclusion that creating a system that would search for what you need from to many tags, is almost impossible as a number of tags will always be missing and you are bound to end up getting odd pictures. This can be mitigated somewhat by using "main categories" that will be checked primarily during the sorting.

Otherwise, a decent solution: create a number of unique tags for more/most demanding jobs and events and use that instead of trying to match tags to event content (texts, locations etc.). Will not be universal, but will work really well I expect.

However, I also know that descriptions of group sex scenes (starting with threesomes) are very hard without +- sex tags. Even with them, they are hard, so I've been thinking about alternate solutions - unsuccessfully, so far.

You're right... close to impossible without going overboard with tag descriptors and making images almost impossible to call as required. I think any attempt to describe these without the pinpoint tags for events will be either be to complicated for many modders to understand or will mean a very large leap towards the "thousands tags".

Come on...
Nobody is talking about animation. I am telling you that you will get the same tags for images with different contents. Consider this, using your active/passive approach:
Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl, while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl, while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy", "finger pussy", "active", "passive"

Sorry, I misunderstood what you've meant by passive and active. I though active meant that the main character of the event is taking an active part in an act and passive that she's not (as in being totally receptive in the nature of the event).

Like you've said in the above statement and I said when I requested customizable tooltips, it's important to know what tags actually mean to the game.

IMHO: I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.
From perspective of what's being done to the MC (active/passive means if she's active in the scene like giving a helping hand or doing something other than receiving the "punishment")

Im_1: Should be: "lesbian", "finger pussy" <-- if we have the tag (we prolly should), "active" + other relevant tags
Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 05:32:16 AM
Poor google...

I believe we don't need that kind of accuracy for les and group. If the image is not quite correspond to the text, it means that described event happened before or will happen later (use your imagination, dammit!  :D ).

Hundreds of tags could be great for 25000+ pics characters like Touhou, but they are unnecessary for 200+ pics characters, which often have 2-4 bj or les pics at best. Either we won't use most of events for them (and this is quite boring), or pictures won't  correspond to the text most of the time anyway.

What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?
What about this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%282%29.jpg) or that (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%284%29.jpg) pics, which tags we need for them?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 06:04:44 AM
Mid-Tags-Roundup
(as we discussed here)

"Main Tags":

battle_sprite
battle

stripping
solo
anal
bestiality
blowjob
lesbian
sex
submission
group


profile
quest
date
entertainment
resting
shopping

"Sub tags":

profile:

- meeting (subtag for girls who don't have date pics?) (or date + profile will do...)

sex:

- footjob
- handjob

blowjob:
- 69
- titsjob

solo:
- masturbation
- selfpleasure (other than masturbation)

lesbian:
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag) (KILL THIS IN FAVOR OF "lick pussy + lesbian""???)
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
- strapon
- dildo joined


General sex (applicable to more than one main sex category, those categories MUST be specified when tagging):

- active
- passive
- covered (in cum, I don't think we'll ever have another covered tag)
- covered solo (like Dark said, loads of these pics out there and events are easy to write)
- lick pussy (@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...)
- lick anus (@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...)
- finger pussy
- finger anus
- caress tits
- hug
- kiss
- strip
- dildo
- anal beads
- device
- missionary
- doggy
- ontop
- onside (research required for a better name I guess)
- standing
- suspended (girl is clinging to the guy, can be a part of standing in sex, bdsm might have a different meaning :0 )
- sitting
- spoon
- caress
- forced (sometimes apparent from the pic even if the girl is not restrained, we could use it in events)

submission:
(need some input here) (active here should mean that main character is punishing other participant(s), passive is assumed and should not be used otherwise.)
- amount of people in the picture available already as tags.
- restrained
- torture (when apparent?)

bestiality:

- tentacles

group:
(need some input here as well) (but other than using amount(gender) of people and type(s) of intercourse, should we even add more tags?)
- bukkake (always without penetration?)

battle:

- classic weapons
- modern weapons (includes futuristic kind?)

entertainment:

- cosplay
- musician (music)

rest:

- reading
- bath (CW, please clarify if we need this together with bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations)
- nap (CW, please clarify if we need this together with sleeping?)

"Descriptor tags" (aka Sub/sub tags):

clothing:

- nude
- lingerie
- cat (neko)
- maid
- bunny

actions:

- sport
- cooking
- eating (sub tag for rest maybe, but it doesn't matter)

state:

- drunk
- pregnant
- transformed (as applicable to many girls...)

"Flag Tags":

- night
- winter
- autumn (usually apparent by looking at trees/grass)
- partner hidden
- partner visible
- no bg
- simple bg


PS: What do you guys think about using +/- for active/passive indications btw??? I've realized while writing the above that in many cases it might work as well/better than active/passive.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 06:07:33 AM
Try the very first video, it's quite good :)
Not in the mood for "research", sorry ;)
Plus, I doubt my first google hit will be the same as yours (no, I'm not asking for a link...).

We just have "blowjob" tag, without give/get.
How does that make it less obscure in its meaning?

what I mean to say is that it is possible to work with a LOT of tags and possible to work with 1), point is to find the acceptable middleground.
Working with thousands of tags is impossible for a hobbyist project.
If you have just one tag, drop it completely and just use a directory.
If you have a tagging system, you need to decide how detailed you want it to be. If you think the +-tags are outside your "acceptable middleground", please just say so and maybe back it up with arguments. Talking about impossible scenarios will get us nowhere.

I've been thinking about it and came to conclusion that creating a system that would search for what you need from to many tags, is almost impossible as a number of tags will always be missing and you are bound to end up getting odd pictures.
I think it is possible. It works quite well in Pytherworld IMHO, if you give the game enough images that are decently tagged. I've been using Image Tagger for quite some time to add tags to a local image archive here for testing. Of course, occasionally you get an odd picture. With fine tuning, I believe this can be made a rare occasion.
The advantage you buy with this system is that it can create random events (combinations of images and text that are not pre-defined) that reflect the ingame situation relatively closely, even if nobody ever foresaw this exact situation. In addition, every content that is added to the database will make the system better (if the content is tagged accurately).
The only high-quality alternative IMHO is the way Ashford Academy does it: Pre-defined events with text written especially for each image. That is great, but very hard to pull off for large amounts of images.


This can be mitigated somewhat by using "main categories" that will be checked primarily during the sorting.
Sounds like the scoring tags used in Pytherworld tasks.

Otherwise, a decent solution: create a number of unique tags for more/most demanding jobs and events and use that instead of trying to match tags to event content (texts, locations etc.).
If you don't use tags to dynamically match images to ingame situations, what do you need tags for? What you are suggesting sounds more like what Otherworld does, which you didn't like in the past.


IMHO: I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.
The +-sex tags always refer to the main character. "+finger pussy" means she fingers the pussy of another girl. "-lick pussy" means she has her pussy licked by someone else. In combination with the "partners" tag category, you can get a relatively complete description of what is going on for the main character while still having an amount of tags that is manageable.

Of course you can simplify the system, but the tradeoff is that you lose information. The less information you have, the less likely it is that the image matching routine will find a good image for your situation. If you want to have dynamic image matching, you need good tags. If you don't want to do all that tagging, don't go with dynamic matching. Let the image pack creators describe what they see on the images in terms of ingame text instead of tags.

Otherworld tries to have it both ways, use a simple tagging system and dynamically match images to ingame text. As you know, the results are quite generic.

Im_1: Should be: "lesbian", "finger pussy" <-- if we have the tag (we prolly should), "active" + other relevant tags
Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags
Pay attention.

How can ("lesbian", "finger pussy", "active") in image 1 mean that Belldandy fingers another girls pussy (=active act) while in image 2 ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "active") means that Belldandys pussy is licked (=passive act)? I suppose you meant Im_2 should be ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "passive")? Even if that assumption is true, you lose either what Belldandy is actively doing ("passive" tag on image) or you lose what is done to her ("active" tag on image). Lost information is information you can't use to make the ingame text more interesting.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 06:14:26 AM
What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?

I'd say: "lesbian", "dildo joined" + other relevant tags.

this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%282%29.jpg)

I don't know who the main girl here is...

"lesbian", "caress"

that (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%284%29.jpg)

"lesbian", "forced", "device"? I don't know, this is one of those pics I'd just tag "lesbian" and special event inside he json file if someone can come up with one.

Edit: I'd "special tag it" like a "female costumer attack" if the girl on the back is "MC", maybe it should even be a normal category?????????????
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 06:22:01 AM
Poor google...
Don't worry, I'm sure google is used to worse search terms...

Hundreds of tags could be great for 25000+ pics characters like Touhou, but they are unnecessary for 200+ pics characters, which often have 2-4 bj or les pics at best. Either we won't use most of events for them (and this is quite boring), or pictures won't  correspond to the text most of the time anyway.
I think that depends on how the events are coded. PyTFall often adds tidbits of text here or there if some condition is met. Detailed tags would be very useful for that approach.
The advantage detailed tagging provides is mainly for characters with many images, that is true. However, how do you suggest to find the image matching the current ingame situation best for characters with very many images? If the game does not know what's on the image, you will often end up with images not matching the event text even for characters that would have had a better image.

What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?
No, only the situation of the main character is described. In this case, using the tags from Image Tagger 0.2: "-dildo", "one girl"

What about this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%282%29.jpg) or that (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%284%29.jpg) pics, which tags we need for them?
For the first image and assuming the main character is the girl with the red horn: "-fondle", "one girl", "sad", "nude"
For the second image and assuming the main character is the girl lying on her back: "-undressing", "-bdsm", "afraid" and a number of clothing tags
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 06:40:59 AM
Do we need magic tag as such? There are pics where girls casting a spell or something.

- meeting (subtag for girls who don't have date pics?) (or date + profile will do...)
I guess date+profile will be enough.

@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...
1-2 pics per girl at best. And I mean huge packs, like One Piece and larger. If you think it's enough, be my guess and code such events  :)

- sitting
- spoon
Not sure I understand what do you mean by sitting, since we have on top already.
As for spoon, it's almost doggy according to wiki. Do we need a separate tag for it?

submission:
(need some input here) (active here should mean that main character is punishing other participant(s), passive is assumed and should not be used otherwise.)
- amount of people in the picture available already as tags.
- restrained
- torture (when apparent?)
I wonder if we should use les tag for such (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%287%29.jpg) pics.
Do we need spanking, lash, collar tags?

- bukkake (always without penetration?)
I think we should yse both bukkake and sex/anal for penetration.

- classic weapons
- modern weapons (includes futuristic kind?)
Magic?

- cosplay
- musician (music)
Dance.

What do you guys think about using +/- for active/passive indications btw??? I've realized while writing the above that in many cases it might work as well/better than active/passive.
It's kinda confusing to me, but if tags software will have decent tooltips/readme, I have no objections  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 07:10:53 AM
How does that make it less obscure in its meaning?

It's a main category to fall back to, obscure meaning is implied.

Working with thousands of tags is impossible for a hobbyist project.

The only high-quality alternative IMHO is the way Ashford Academy does it: Pre-defined events with text written especially for each image. That is great, but very hard to pull off for large amounts of images.

Both are impossible for PyTFall, however... The thing is that tagging system will mostly be used for random events (random as in events written for any girl in the game). My guess is that 99% of the modders when writing events for unique girl will use AA approach... Ren'Py makes that far to convenient.

I think it is possible. It works quite well in Pytherworld IMHO, if you give the game enough images that are decently tagged. I've been using Image Tagger for quite some time to add tags to a local image archive here for testing. Of course, occasionally you get an odd picture. With fine tuning, I believe this can be made a rare occasion.
The advantage you buy with this system is that it can create random events (combinations of images and text that are not pre-defined) that reflect the ingame situation relatively closely, even if nobody ever foresaw this exact situation. In addition, every content that is added to the database will make the system better (if the content is tagged accurately).

Maybe in half an year I will feel the same, if you remember I was against using python modules and special methods in my code half an year ago, now I can't get enough of those :) (Still against overuse of inheritance though... P ..cough th .. cough orld  :D )


If you don't use tags to dynamically match images to ingame situations, what do you need tags for? What you are suggesting sounds more like what Otherworld does, which you didn't like in the past.

Of course you can simplify the system, but the tradeoff is that you lose information. The less information you have, the less likely it is that the image matching routine will find a good image for your situation. If you want to have dynamic image matching, you need good tags. If you don't want to do all that tagging, don't go with dynamic matching. Let the image pack creators describe what they see on the images in terms of ingame text instead of tags.

Otherworld tries to have it both ways, use a simple tagging system and dynamically match images to ingame text. As you know, the results are quite generic.

I am planning to kill 95% of events in favor of simpler events based on existing images (so I almost always do checks for tags before event in launched).


Pay attention.

How can ("lesbian", "finger pussy", "active") in image 1 mean that Belldandy fingers another girls pussy (=active act) while in image 2 ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "active") means that Belldandys pussy is licked (=passive act)? I suppose you meant Im_2 should be ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "passive")? Even if that assumption is true, you lose either what Belldandy is actively doing ("passive" tag on image) or you lose what is done to her ("active" tag on image). Lost information is information you can't use to make the ingame text more interesting.

I realize that it might be almost as confusing as your approach but you pay attention as well. Also, see how many articles you can find suggesting that licking (as not being on the receiving side) pussy is "passive sex"... in fact, try finding one article from any reliable source...


Quote
I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.

I went with what is being "done" to the MC of a pic:

Image 1: while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "finger pussy"
Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy"


Quote
From perspective of what's being done to the MC (active/passive means if she's active in the scene like giving a helping hand or doing something other than receiving the "punishment")


Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl = "active"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl = "active"

active/passive is required to describe if Belldendy is doing "something" on the pic as may be reflection on her skill or willingness in the text.

Lesbian tag is not under any scrutiny. (I hope)

There is a loss of information, but otherwise we'd have to double almost every sex tag, I'd prefer to avoid that, but I've asked the team what they'd do in one of the above posts.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 07:30:30 AM
Well then, let's look at one of my packs.

First girl.
One (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/anal%20%283%29.jpg), two (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/bdsm%20%2810%29.jpg), three (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/bdsm%200.jpg), four (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/sex%20%288%29.jpg), five (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%2842%29.jpg).

Second girl
One (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/bdsm%20%2814%29.jpg), two (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/date%20%284%29.jpg), three (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%2880%29.jpg).

Third girl
One (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/strip%200.jpg), two (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28132%29.jpg).

Fourth girl
One (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%2895%29.jpg), two (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/profile%20%28116%29.jpg), three (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/nude%20%2820%29.jpg).

Do we need any additional tags for these ones?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, don't forget about places tags and portrait tag.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 07:33:01 AM
Do we need magic tag as such? There are pics where girls casting a spell or something.

Might be useful, lets add it...

I guess date+profile will be enough.

Ok, I'll get rid of it.

Not sure I understand what do you mean by sitting, since we have on top already.

Usually considered two different positions, we can remove "sitting" if you think it's to much.

As for spoon, it's almost doggy according to wiki. Do we need a separate tag for it?

It states that it's also possible... not almost doggy? Oh, and it should be "spoons" or "spooning" I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoons_sex_position

I wonder if we should use les tag for such (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/les%20%287%29.jpg) pics.

I don't believe so... only if there are no other les pics at all maybe. But them we might fall onto profile or come up with defaults (no heads/faces) for main categories and maybe even some sub categories (like in Valet Pletej).

Do we need spanking, lash, collar tags?

We have collar in the software I believe. Spanking is a nice catch, will be useful for slavetraining with a default pic as we will not have the luxury of "skipping" those interactions at all...

lash are VERY rare... and often hard to use because often the girl is lashed all over the body... we have to think of something here.

I think we should yse both bukkake and sex/anal for penetration.

Ok, I'll clarify that on the next tags review.

Magic?

- magic weapons as well than.

Dance.

We should have dancing in the software already (I am not listing all tags we'll use, tags that are in the software are either repeated here or I imply that we have them already)

It's kinda confusing to me, but if tags software will have decent tooltips/readme, I have no objections  :)

Yeah... it's either that or active/passive. We need to choose.


PS: Are there many "healing pics"? Without sex or anything like that? There are many healers/doctors/priests in games/manga/anime...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 07:38:16 AM
Do we need any additional tags for these ones?

Maybe:

- tired (high fatigue)
- gambling (possibly for the future)

rest should be doable...

Also, don't forget about places tags and portrait tag.

Software has them both already.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
It's a main category to fall back to, obscure meaning is implied.
I see. Maybe "oralsex" or even "oral" would be a more obvious name for a category for oral sex tags?

My guess is that 99% of the modders when writing events for unique girl will use AA approach... Ren'Py makes that far to convenient.
I know. I always thought using Ashford Academies approach would be a good fit for PyTFall.


Also, see how many articles you can find suggesting that licking (as not being on the receiving side) pussy is "passive sex"...
It's not. Licking someone's pussy is an active act. No argument there. But getting your own pussy licked is passive. And that is exactly what I wrote that is happening in image 2.
Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy"
Remember that we agreed that tags describe what is happening to the main character? Well, the main character is Belldandy, and her pussy is being licked. That's passive. What's hard to understand here?

I went with what is being "done" to the MC of a pic:
Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags
No, you did not describe what is happening to the main character in image 2. The main character is Belldandy and her pussy is getting licked, which should get this image a "passive" tag according to your rules, because Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is getting licked. According to your rules, "active" implies that Belldandy is doing something and "lick pussy" implies that someone is licking a pussy. Since you used both tags, this means that Belldandy is licking the pussy of another woman. Now lets compare that to what I said is happening in image 2:
Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy
Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is being licked. Therefore, Belldandy is passive in regard to the "lick pussy" act. Therefore, the image should have a "passive" tag, not the "active" tag you gave it.


There is a loss of information, but otherwise we'd have to double almost every sex tag, I'd prefer to avoid that, but I've asked the team what they'd do in one of the above posts.
If you decide to keep it simpler because you don't need the additional information, I won't object. I just recommend not to rely on image tags to match images to ingame situations if you plan to use simple tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
@Rudi

I have two questions about the software:

1)
You've said that you've already tagged the images, does it mean that you've used tags as those are in the software?

I want to know if it's to late to change tags like reading to read or resting to rest (we're used to that) but it would work either way.

2)
Please clarify on these tags:

exposed
-undressing
+undressing
pov (I think it's might be our profile tag)
generic (like a default?)

ignore/delete/move (I can guess but I am confused why they are in the front raw, where the most used tags should be so maybe they have other meaning)

Intended difference in:
singer from learn singing
musician from learn an instrument
dancer from learn dancing

is fondle better name for cuddle? (or at least acceptable name for cuddle?)

Difference between ffm sex to "partners": one guy, one girl
Difference between mmf sex to "partners": two guys

By "other people" do you mean people just stand there watching the act?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 08:17:03 AM
Are there many "healing pics"? Without sex or anything like that?
Not really. The only pro healer I have is Tsunade, and even she doesn't have any. A couple of characters have nurse costume though or cast some noncombat spell  :)

Btw, what about singing? Should it be a part of music or a separate tag?

Yeah... it's either that or active/passive. We need to choose.
Maybe we should just use tags like "MC is licking" and "MC is been licked" or something?
---------------------------

I believe we should make beta version of tags and start tagging. I'm sure there will be new questions about new tags from me during it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 08:24:14 AM
I see. Maybe "oralsex" or even "oral" would be a more obvious name for a category for oral sex tags?

Without any shadow of a doubt, it would be, but blowjob is kinda a "historic" category on these forums that should have been called oral from the beginning... Also oral "might" imply tonging or " non bj type of licking", blowjob does not.

It's not. Licking someone's pussy is an active act. No argument there. But getting your own pussy licked is passive. And that is exactly what I wrote that is happening in image 2.Remember that we agreed that tags describe what is happening to the main character? Well, the main character is Belldandy, and her pussy is being licked. That's passive. What's hard to understand here?
No, you did not describe what is happening to the main character in image 2. The main character is Belldandy and her pussy is getting licked, which should get this image a "passive" tag according to your rules, because Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is getting licked. According to your rules, "active" implies that Belldandy is doing something and "lick pussy" implies that someone is licking a pussy. Since you used both tags, this means that Belldandy is licking the pussy of another woman. Now lets compare that to what I said is happening in image 2:Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is being licked. Therefore, Belldandy is passive in regard to the "lick pussy" act. Therefore, the image should have a "passive" tag, not the "active" tag you gave it.

I can't get though to you on this one... "active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the MC participating in ANY WAY in the act or just does nothing but getting fucked.

Active Anal (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/anal%200.png)
Passive Anal (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/anal%203.jpg)

To be used in texts together with "mood" tags to describe her skill/libido during the jobs events for example...

If Belldandy is doing stuff to the other girl, it's active. Other tag describes WHAT is being DONE TO THE MC, not what the MC is doing.

If you decide to keep it simpler because you don't need the additional information, I won't object. I just recommend not to rely on image tags to match images to ingame situations if you plan to use simple tags.

As I've said, what we're trying to do here right now, is to find all the tags we think that we might require that are not in the software and "golden middle" on far to go with the tag amount.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 08:34:38 AM
Not really. The only pro healer I have is Tsunade, and even she doesn't have any. A couple of characters have nurse costume though or cast some noncombat spell  :)

- nurse then? We have miko in the software. No nurse that I could find but I've noticed lingerie... I though it was missing.

Maybe we should just use tags like "MC is licking" and "MC is been licked" or something?

Maybe, it's a lot less confusing...

I believe we should make beta version of tags and start tagging. I'm sure there will be new questions about new tags from me during it.

Not sure we're ready but ok, I'll make a new list and try to make a new layout for software.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 08:42:36 AM
- nurse then? We have miko in the software.
Yup. Maybe also offensive/nonoffensive tags for magic, and second one could be used as healing too.
Or maybe just one general "healing" tag for anything that resembles it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 09:12:12 AM
Beta-Tags-Roundup
(as we discussed here)

"Main Tags":

battle_sprite
battle

stripping
solo
anal
bestiality
blowjob
lesbian
sex
bdsm
group


profile
quest
entertainment
resting


"Sub tags":

sex:

- footjob
- handjob

blowjob:
- 69
- titsjob

solo:
- masturbation
- selfpleasure (other than masturbation)

lesbian:
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag) (KILL THIS IN FAVOR OF "lick pussy + lesbian""???)
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
- strapon
- dildo joined (double ended dildo or similar device)
- mc cunnilingus


General sex (applicable to more than one main sex category, those categories MUST be specified when tagging):

- active
- passive


- deflowered
- covered in cum
- covered in come solo (like Dark said, loads of these pics out there and events are easy to write) <-- can be understood from solo general tag

New tags??? (implies that mc of a pic is doing it):
- mc fingers pussy
- mc fingers anus
- mc squeezes her tit(s)
- mc licks pussy
- mc licks anus
- mc caresses (or fondles)
- mc dildo pussy
- mc dildo anal
- mc dildo (just holding it)
- mc strapon
- mc pussy strapon
- mc anal strapon (still means MC is doing it)
- mc anal beads

- lick pussy
- lick anus
- finger pussy
- finger anus
- caress tits
- hug
- kissing
- kissed (forcefully?)
- strips <-- removed to avoid confusion.
- dildo
- anal beads
- device
- missionary
- doggy
- ontop
- onside (research required for a better name I guess)
- standing
- suspended (girl is clinging to the guy, can be a part of standing in sex, bdsm might have a different meaning :0 )
- sitting
- spooning
- caressed
- forced (sometimes apparent from the pic even if the girl is not restrained, we could use it in events)

submission:
(active here should mean that main character is punishing other participant(s), passive is assumed and should not be used otherwise.)
- amount of people in the picture available already as tags.
- restrained
- torture (when apparent?)
- lashed
- spanked
- mc spanking

bestiality:

- tentacles

group:
(need some input here as well) (but other than using amount(gender) of people and type(s) of intercourse, should we even add more tags?)
- bukkake

battle:

- classic weapons (generic)
- modern weapons (includes futuristic kind?)
- magic weapons

entertainment:

- cosplay
- musician (music)

rest:

- reading
- bath (CW, please clarify if we need this together with bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations)
- nap (CW, please clarify if we need this together with sleeping?)

"Descriptor tags" (aka Sub/sub tags):

clothing:

- nude
- lingerie
- cat (neko)
- maid
- bunny
- nurce

actions:

- shopping
- healing
- tired
- gambling
- magic
- date
- sport
- cooking
- eating (sub tag for rest maybe, but it doesn't matter)

state:

- drunk
- pregnant
- transformed (as applicable to many girls...)

"Flag Tags":

- night
- winter
- autumn (usually apparent by looking at trees/grass)
- partner hidden
- partner visible should be implied.
- no bg
- simple bg


What else? Should I remove/adjust something?

Are there many feet fetish pics? I though that was getting big in Japan but haven't seen a lot of those before, on the other hand, it's been a while since I've made a pack...

Modders will understand some of this as well as makers of this video understood these lyrics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIwrgAnx6Q8 :D
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 10:11:32 AM
Without any shadow of a doubt, it would be, but blowjob is kinda a "historic" category on these forums that should have been called oral from the beginning...
Historic reasons explain a lot of things. Thanks for the explanation.



"active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the MC participating in ANY WAY in the act or just does nothing but getting fucked.

To be used in texts together with "mood" tags to describe her skill/libido during the jobs events for example...
The tags in the mood category are exactly what I would use to convey the meaning you would convey with active/passive. None of the currently available tags really fit the mood of the images though IMHO.
I think our argument shows that it is quite hard to explain the meaning of active/passive as you understand it. Maybe other words would be easier to understand, for example "lewd", "lustful" or "sensual" for "active" and "indifferent", "shy" or "passionless" for "passive".
I'm not saying active/passive makes no sense the way you use it, it actually does. I am saying that it is very easy to confuse the meaning you want these tags to have with other meanings they could have in the context of sexual interaction.
I could paraphrase the first sentence of the above quote to highlight the confusion:
"active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the MC participates actively or passively in the act, regardless of whether the MC actively or passively participates in the act.
(the first part uses your meaning, the second part my meaning of active/passive)



1)
You've said that you've already tagged the images, does it mean that you've used tags as those are in the software?
I want to know if it's to late to change tags like reading to read or resting to rest (we're used to that) but it would work either way.
I have used the tags as they are now in Image Tagger and I have used several other versions before that. Direct translations are easy to do via simple mass tagging scripts. Something like
Code: [Select]
for image in database:
  oldtags = tags.readxmp(image)
  newtags = set()
  for tag in oldtags:
    newtags.add(translationtable[tag])
  tags.writexmp(image, newtags)
As far as I recall, I used the -ing ending for consistency. If we can get rid of -ing for all tags, it's fine by me.

2)Please clarify on these tags:

exposed
-undressing
+undressing
pov (I think it's might be our profile tag)
generic (like a default?)
Exposed is used to say that you can see parts of the body that you usually can not see. For example, if a girl wears a bra, you can't see her breasts. However, she might have pulled the bra down, so her breasts are exposed. So, in addition to the "bra" tag for the bra, the image gets an "exposed" tag.
I also use the tag to indicate that a girl is putting her pussy on display by bending over, spreading her legs and so on.
One intended use for this tag is something like the "Expose Her" job of Slave Maker.

The undressing tags are a problem. Currently, following the logic of the sex tags, they mean:
-undressing --> main character is being undressed (does not say who is doing the undressing)
+undressing --> main character is undressing someone (does not say who is being undressed)
I used to have just "undressing", but than I could not say that the main character is actually undressing her partner, not herself; I'd also like to be able to say that the main character is being undressed by someone else.

"pov" means point of view and indicates that an image shows the main character from the point of view of the player character. The rationale is that those images are preferable for slave training tasks because they do not impose a specific look on the player character, so the player has more freedom in imagining his character.

"generic" is kind of a place holder tag and says that an image could be used for several different girls (for example a close up that does not show the head). It's a similar concept to generic images in Otherworld or Slave Maker, but I don't do anything with it currently (never got around to it).

Quote
ignore/delete/move (I can guess but I am confused why they are in the front raw, where the most used tags should be so maybe they have other meaning)
"ignore" means skip this image on database generation
"delete" means the image should be deleted at the next opportunity
"move" means the image was placed in the wrong folder, e.g. an image of Belldandy in the folder for Mio
They are where they are because thats were the general, catch-all tags category is. They could just as well be anywhere else.

Quote
Intended difference in:
singer from learn singing
musician from learn an instrument
dancer from learn dancing
Rarely used tags I'm not happy with. Those that start with learn should describe that the activities are currently trained, for example with a teacher, whereas the other tags are professions . I suppose a combination of location + activity tag could replace those.

Quote
is fondle better name for cuddle? (or at least acceptable name for cuddle?)
To fondle means to touch in intimate places and is in between caress and grope. Cuddling may involve fondling, but not necessarily. It's not really the same. I've used "fondle" for all kinds of foreplay that is not covered by other sex tags, so its kind of a catch-all tag. More detail might be useful there.

Quote
Difference between ffm sex to "partners": one guy, one girl
Difference between mmf sex to "partners": two guys
Partners are the people the main character interacts with directly. For example, in a girl-girl-boy (FFM) situation, the main character might kiss the other girl and do nothing else because the other two are currently fucking. This image would get "kiss", "one girl", "ffm sex" and maybe "one other guy". "ffm sex" is there to say that it's actually a threesome, even if the current actions do not clearly show that from the perspective of the main character.

Quote
By "other people" do you mean people just stand there watching the act?
Anybody who can be seen in the image but who does not directly interact with the main character belongs to "other people" . If what a person is doing results in the image getting a sex tag (or activity tag, like dancing), that person belongs to "partners".
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 10:42:04 AM
Ok, I understand. Now software modification question:

- How do I adjust the names of "main" windows like "action".

I am sure there will be more... :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 10:44:50 AM
You need to modify the xml file in the res folder (taggroups.xml or so).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 11:09:43 AM
You need to modify the xml file in the res folder (taggroups.xml or so).

Working on it, I've tried it but failed for 4 times before I've figured what was up...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 11:36:01 AM
Just to make sure I understand correctly: "main tags" are the names of categories for tags with somewhat similar meaning. So "penetration" could be a main tag for "fuck", "anal" and maybe "blowjob". "fitness" could be a main tag for "jogging", "exercising" and "yoga".

Regarding main tags
blowjob
lesbian
sex
group
I dislike those because they do not carry enough meaning. A new project is a good place to get rid of old traditions and start new ones ;)
"blowjob" should IMHO be "oral" or "oralsex"
"lesbian" does not tell you how many girls there are. Using three tags from the partner category instead ("one girl", "two girls", "more girls") gives you more precision and allows you to use these tags also for non-sexual situations that require a partner (dancing, learning/teaching stuff, sports).
"sex" is very generic in its meaning and could encompass most tags. If you can't guess from the category name the approximate contents of the category, it's a bad name.
"group" also seems to be quite generic as it does not tell you how many people and which gender are involved in the action. Using the tags from the "partner" category gives the game more information to work with.

Quote
profile
Is IMHO unnecessary as a tag. Profile images can be found by excluding other tag groups, e.g. sex tags. In addition, profile images are often used as fallback anyway when no better image can be found. The fallback option should not be limited by the absence of the "profile" tag on an image.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 11:37:11 AM
Working on it, I've tried it but failed for 4 times before I've figured what was up...
Sorry about that. If you have specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them.


UPDATE:

Regarding sub tags
- footjob
Seems to be quite specific. Do you have images to use that tag? Pack makers, what do you think?


Quote
- 69
Not necessary. For a heterosexual couple that can be described as ("one guy", "blowjob", "eat pussy")


Quote
- selfpleasure (other than masturbation)
Like, with toys?


Quote
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag)
Bad name, I agree. I vote for "eat pussy" instead as its even shorter than "lick pussy"


Quote
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
+1 for scissors


Quote
- dildo joined (double ended dildo or similar device)
Very specific. Pack makers, are there enough images to have a tag like that?

Quote
- cunnilingus
- mc cunnilingus
Why is that better than "+cunnilingus" and "-cunnilingus"? "mc cunnilingus" does not tell you if the main character is doing the cunnilingus or if it is done to her. With + and - all you have to remember is that it's from the perspective of the main character and + is an active act while - is a passive act. In addition, brothelsim also uses the +- system (I copied it from there ;) )

UPDATE: How about "cunnilingus" and "do cunnilingus"?


Quote
- covered in cum
How about "cumcovered" for brevity? Both are fine though.


Quote
submission:
I found the following useful:
"bondage" --> restrained with ropes
"shackled" --> restrained, but not with ropes
"secured" or "lockdown" -->  can't leave where she currently is
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 12:06:11 PM
Regarding main tagsI dislike those because they do not carry enough meaning. A new project is a good place to get rid of old traditions and start new ones ;)
"blowjob" should IMHO be "oral" or "oralsex"
"lesbian" does not tell you how many girls there are. Using three tags from the partner category instead ("one girl", "two girls", "more girls") gives you more precision and allows you to use these tags also for non-sexual situations that require a partner (dancing, learning/teaching stuff, sports).
"sex" is very generic in its meaning and could encompass most tags. If you can't guess from the category name the approximate contents of the category, it's a bad name.
"group" also seems to be quite generic as it does not tell you how many people and which gender are involved in the action. Using the tags from the "partner" category gives the game more information to work with.

Old habbits and thinking patterns are very hard to break, especially if those had been established for a reason. I don't think anyone on the team would agree to break the usual "WM" pattern. (you guys can correct me if I am mistaken).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 12:29:18 PM
Seems to be quite specific. Do you have images to use that tag? Pack makers, what do you think?

http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=footjob

Makinami and Erza right on the front page... 8k+ total hits...

Not necessary. For a heterosexual couple that can be described as ("one guy", "blowjob", "eat pussy")

I'd prefer not to confuse the hell out of myself when I am writing job events. Also, as I've said, I am planning to check for tags before running the events and 69 will not throw me a bs pic (that combo of 3 can). (69 can also means fingering pussy or handjob, am I supposed to check for all of those as well???)

Like, with toys?

Yeap, or massaging own tits.

Bad name, I agree. I vote for "eat pussy" instead as its even shorter than "lick pussy"

+1 for scissors

scissors and eat pussy than?

Very specific. Pack makers, are there enough images to have a tag like that?

I've seen quite a few with double ended dildos.

Why is that better than "+cunnilingus" and "-cunnilingus"? "mc cunnilingus" does not tell you if the main character is doing the cunnilingus or if it is done to her. With + and - all you have to remember is that it's from the perspective of the main character and + is an active act while - is a passive act. In addition, brothelsim also uses the +- system (I copied it from there ;) )

It might not be, but I've explained it in the main window better than you did with "active sex" and "passive sex" that plainly mean different things from what you intended. Maybe that's where the confusion came from.

UPDATE: How about "cunnilingus" and "do cunnilingus"?

eat pussy/get pussy eaten? :D

How about "cumcovered" for brevity? Both are fine though.

Sounds fine.

I found the following useful:
"bondage" --> restrained with ropes
"shackled" --> restrained, but not with ropes
"secured" or "lockdown" -->  can't leave where she currently is

Bondage is to general to mean restrained with ropes. I've renamed category to bdsm by the way...

lockdown is to uncommon with restrained and maybe shackled...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 07, 2013, 12:42:22 PM
Rest
- reading
- bath (CW, please clarify if we need this together with bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations)
- nap (CW, please clarify if we need this together with sleeping?)
Is this roundup supposed to be used with of without tags from tagger software? I'm kinda confused...

 for bath: I think nude+bathroom will be ok so theres no need for new tag (btw: I don't think I ever seen a bath attendant picture)
 for nap: we don't need this one, sleeping is fine.  There is a lot of pics with girl laying in bed or on the floor, but that's probably the very basic thing people imagine under "rest" so no secondary tag is needed.
------------
outfits are missing any type of medieval armors (for modern uniform and plugsuit from software are enought I think)
also dominatrix outfit could be good
and when we are at it, lolita fashion please!


- footjob
Seems to be quite specific. Do you have images to use that tag? Pack makers, what do you think?
- dildo joined (double ended dildo or similar device)
Very specific. Pack makers, are there enough images to have a tag like that?
footjob - I have 5 of them out of 190 oral pics. Not much, but I would still like to have it. Dominant characters tend to have these.
double dildo - this one is kind of strange, I have 25 of them out of 72 les pics on my 3 Naruto girls, but only 1 in my whole NGE pack (87 les pics).  :)   


----------------
what to do with pics from old Date / Beauty / Ent categories? I was sorting pics here mostly just by the feeling I get from that pic and not by something specific on them. What tags we would call for date / having fun / beauty class now?
*edit* sorry, I overlooked the "entertainment" and "date" on the list.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 12:52:38 PM
eat pussy/get pussy eaten? :D
No, I'm actually serious. Use the same approach you did, but replace mc with do for the active act. That's clearer then the +- signs and just a little bit longer. I like it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 01:02:34 PM
Is this roundup supposed to be used with of without tags from tagger software? I'm kinda confused...

With, it is supposed to be added to the software if missing. This is what it currently looks now (Main tags and sex categories added):

(http://img134.imagevenue.com/loc89/th_164093637_07_10_201319_40_21_123_89lo.jpg) (http://img134.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164093637_07_10_201319_40_21_123_89lo.jpg)
     

Our current objectives:

- Determine what our tags are and add them to the software if missing.
- Try to preserve as many tags in the software as possible so it would be easier to use with other games.
- Try to figure out what kind of graphical layout (of the software) will work best with tagging for PyTFall.

(On GUI Layout) For example, we now have lists of tags that cover a lot of area, we could put them in scrolldown lists and have 5 or 6 of those per category for example... or we could rearrange the columns or change the contents of the columns and so on. I've made plenty of packs before so I am trying to make what I think would be most convenient for myself, but we'll discuss and adapt.

for bath: I think nude+bathroom will be ok so theres no need for new tag (btw: I don't think I ever seen a bath attendant picture)
 for nap: we don't need this one, sleeping is fine.  There is a lot of pics with girl laying in bed or on the floor, but that's probably the very basic thing people imagine under "rest" so no secondary tag is needed.
------------

Oki

outfits are missing any type of medieval armors (for modern uniform and plugsuit from software are enought I think)
also dominatrix outfit could be good
and when we are at it, lolita fashion please!

- medieval armor
- modern armor (futuristic as well)
- magical armor

- dominatrix
- lolita (I am not sure what lolita fashion is so tell me if one tag is not enough)
- goth ???(I've seen a couple but not many, anyone thinks we need it???)

footjob - I have 5 of them out of 190 oral pics. Not much, but I would still like to have it. Dominant characters tend to have these.
double dildo - this one is kind of strange, I have 25 of them out of 72 les pics on my 3 Naruto girls, but only 1 in my whole NGE pack (87 les pics).  :)

Pixxx guys love double ended dildos... they have plenty of those for all shows that they cover although only their naruto is of good quality...

I would like to keep both categories as well.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 01:06:50 PM
No, I'm actually serious. Use the same approach you did, but replace mc with do for the active act. That's clearer then the +- signs and just a little bit longer. I like it.

do it is.


-----------------------
Edit:
First time it actually makes some sense:

Code: [Select]
    "performed by mc":[
"do finger pussy",
"do finger anus",
"do squeezes own tits",
"do lick pussy",
"do lick anus",
"do caress",
"do dildo pussy",
"do dildo anal",
"do dildo",
"do strapon",
"do pussy strapon",
"do anal strapon",
"do anal beads"
    ],
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 01:14:52 PM
Old habbits and thinking patterns are very hard to break, especially if those had been established for a reason. I don't think anyone on the team would agree to break the usual "WM" pattern. (you guys can correct me if I am mistaken).
I don't care. I guess you could call it an easter egg for wm though, like average boobs for wm ex  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 01:24:07 PM
I don't care. I guess you could call it an easter egg for wm though, like average boobs for wm ex  :)

Yeap, but I am also not entirely sure how to program fallbacks without those categories, whole brothel part of the game seems to revolve around them...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 01:29:37 PM
I probably will have more propositions after actual tagging, but I have one now: what about flying characters? Do we need a tag for a flight?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 07, 2013, 01:35:29 PM

- lolita (I am not sure what lolita fashion is so tell me if one tag is not enough)
- goth ??? (I've seen a couple but not many, anyone thinks we need it???)
just type "lolita fashion" in google images and you'll understand in a second  :)   I just wanted to make its name longer so noone confuse it with lolis (it's true that small girls tend wear that more often, but there is for example lili (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110521065861/tekken/en/images/b/b5/Tt2-lili_(1).jpg) from tekken and others)
Actually, most common type of Goth costume I have seen on anime pics is a Goth Lolita...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 01:38:35 PM
I probably will have more propositions after actual tagging, but I have one now: what about flying characters? Do we need a tag for a flight?

WTF are "flying" characters? I don't recall any... is flight relevant to a pic?

Right at this moment I am not sure how we'll use it even if we tag it that way.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ok guys, this is a serious question... do we keep WMlike structure for convenience and good memories. Basically, whenever we tag a picture with "sex", "blowjob", "les" (more often than not) or "anal" category, we always assume there are two participants. It's just how it's always been with the old system. However now there is "one guy" and "one girl" tags... We need to decide how to handle this. I personally vote for old main tags with preserving their original meanings...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
just type "lolita fashion" in google images and you'll understand in a second  :)   I just wanted to make its name longer so noone confuse it with lolis (it's true that small girls tend wear that more often, but there is for example lili (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110521065861/tekken/en/images/b/b5/Tt2-lili_(1).jpg) from tekken and others)
Actually, most common type of Goth costume I have seen on anime pics is a Goth Lolita...

Ok... so

- lolita
- gothlolita
- goth

???
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 01:48:00 PM
WTF are "flying" characters? I don't recall any... is flight relevant to a pic?
Are you joking? Angels, winged demons, fairies, etc.
There are pics where they fly among the clouds or something.


Basically, whenever we tag a picture with "sex", "blowjob", "les" (more often than not) or "anal" category, we always assume there are two participants. It's just how it's always been with the old system. However now there is "one guy" and "one girl" tags
Aren't pics with more than two participants are group ones? We might need more tags for group, but why do we need to mix it with other categories?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 02:01:31 PM
Are you joking? Angels, winged demons, fairies, etc.
There are pics where they fly among the clouds or something.

Unless it's a transformation, I have no idea on what to do with those...

Aren't pics with more than two participants are group ones? We might need more tags for group, but why do we need to mix it with other categories?

True... But "group" in our meaning is gangbang...

Also:
WM "sex": "one guy" + "missionary" etc.
WM "les": "one girl" + "eat pussy" etc.
WM "blowjob": "one guy" + "blowjob" OR "one guy" + "titsjob" etc.
WM "anal": "one guy" + "anal"

The trouble here is while it's very convenient for me to keep the old thinking pattern and use those as kind of "two in one" tags, some non WM noob might not read the manual and tag "one girl" + "finger anus" as anal... similar example would be someone tagging every sexual image with "sex", something that someone coming from WM background would never do... that in turn would cause his pack to display absolutely chaotic images all over the place.

So... We need to decide how to handle this.


PS: We could use "hurt" for battles. Like Death in WM, people have found a lot of pics for that category if I recall.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 07, 2013, 02:15:36 PM
Ok... so

- lolita
- gothlolita
- goth

 ???
that's just too many tags for something this rare...
I think that just "lolita" outfit tag could suffice, because the difference between normal lolita and goth version for common viewer is only that the dress is not pink but black... But if you can think about something that could be made for the Goth outfit specifically... (other Goth outfits and makeup are too uncomon to consider I believe, and they often fit into formal dress anyway)
-----------------
We dismissed the dead category idea earlier in fear of gore pics I believe.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 02:23:22 PM
We dismissed the dead category idea earlier in fear of gore pics I believe.

Hurt will not likely result in the same issue. I recall using pics where Youruichi was being torn apart for death, but for hurt that would never apply.

- lolita ((it is than.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 02:36:46 PM
Unless it's a transformation, I have no idea on what to do with those...
Ok, I think they should be considered as sport ones then.

We could use "hurt" for battles. Like Death in WM, people have found a lot of pics for that category if I recall.
Such pics are very rare. Not every character has any decent death pics (why do you think wm had so much gore?), not to mention "light" gore that you want, apart from bdsm at least.

True... But "group" in our meaning is gangbang...
And how many pepple exactly you need in order to make group a gangbang?

I personally put sex pics with multiple people in group. Except for those with girls only, they go to les (I guess we need to do something about them too).

some non WM noob might not read the manual and tag "one girl" + "finger anus" as anal... similar example would be someone tagging every sexual image with "sex", something that someone coming from WM background would never do...
True. On the other hand, those tags are useful as base categories if nothing better is available.
Should we arrange a vote or something?  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 03:14:22 PM
Such pics are very rare. Not every character has any decent death pics (why do you think wm had so much gore?), not to mention "light" gore that you want, apart from bdsm at least.

Not death, just hurt (like they've just been to battle + some wounds). I could use those for Arena.

I personally put sex pics with multiple people in group. Except for those with girls only, they go to les (I guess we need to do something about them too).
True. On the other hand, those tags are useful as base categories if nothing better is available.

I know what we do... We don't need another les category, "les" + "more than 2 girls" + etc.

True. On the other hand, those tags are useful as base categories if nothing better is available.
Should we arrange a vote or something?  :)

Yeap, we'll try to write it in red and large font in the tagging manual. If we stick with WM structure, we should still tag "one guy" and "one girl" just in case...

I vote yes. And we are not going to poll "Should we keep nostalgic WM image categories on PinkPetals forum" :)


-------------------------------------
Another question: While Styles seem really useful, are we actually gonna tag per piece clothing? I have no idea how to make use of that information...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 07, 2013, 03:27:17 PM
Hurt will not likely result in the same issue. I recall using pics where Youruichi was being torn apart for death, but for hurt that would never apply.
Do ripped clothes count for this?
Ok, I think they should be considered as sport ones then.
If a flying is a common movement for that character (fairy...) I would consider it as a normal profile pic, unless she is flying really fast.
I personally put sex pics with multiple people in group. Except for those with girls only, they go to les (I guess we need to do something about them too).
I'm doing that too, even if there is just a person standing by. He is just waiting for his turn, doesn't he? Only other people I ignore are obvious stalkers in bushes nearby  :)
Another question: While Styles seem really useful, are we actually gonna tag per piece clothing? I have no idea how to make use of that information...
I also think that pieces of clothes are too much.
But those pieces in software contains some outfits that would be missing from styles if we don't use them. Like:
swimsuit, bikini, bloomers, plugsuit, long dress, panties(topless)...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 04:07:52 PM
Do ripped clothes count for this?

Maybe, depends on the picture.

If a flying is a common movement for that character (fairy...) I would consider it as a normal profile pic, unless she is flying really fast.

Yeap, me too.

I also think that pieces of clothes are too much.

Prolly to much as well and I have no idea how to use such an exact information about the girl in the game. Only when trying to convert items that are equipped to outfits in the profile picture type but that's to much work for everybody at very little benefit for the player...

swimsuit, bikini, bloomers, plugsuit, long dress, panties(topless)...

I'll add those to styles.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 07, 2013, 04:33:07 PM
Yeap, but I am also not entirely sure how to program fallbacks without those categories, whole brothel part of the game seems to revolve around them...
I might be able to help with that. Pytherworld has multiple fallback strategies if no suitable image is found right away. How do you do it now? Or how did you plan to do it using those categories?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 05:11:38 PM
I might be able to help with that. Pytherworld has multiple fallback strategies if no suitable image is found right away. How do you do it now? Or how did you plan to do it using those categories?

Plan was to use the categories, yes. Like I've said, our whole tagging strategy will revolve around those... I'd love to hear the sorting strategies but I am not sure how much I trust Pytherworld's fallbacks at it's stage of development and testing.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I am done with the PyTFall adaptation:

- All out main tags fit on single window
- All OW tags are preserved and if not used directly by our setup, can be found outside the window (or well inside it if you have a large monitor)
- I think setup is acceptable but it's more than open for discussion.

(http://img206.imagevenue.com/loc158/th_179358907_07_10_201323_52_46_123_158lo.jpg) (http://img206.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=179358907_07_10_201323_52_46_123_158lo.jpg)
     
PS: Does any of you has a screen with res lower than 1280x800 by the way???
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 05:17:57 PM
Oki, almost a days work  ::)

New Link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar

Tell me what you think, layout should be as in picture in the post above.

Edit: I've tried tagging some images, we're clearly missing "scared" and "deepthroat". I'll add those and upload the new version. Those two are in!

-----------------------------------------------
Ideas:

"spanked" + "do spanking" are prolly an overkill, since we decided to use active and passive to indicate who's doing what in bdsm? Should we kill those in favor of just spanking?

We could add "kisses" or "do kiss" for dates, I've seen a couple of pics like that?

Why exactly do we care what kind of weapon girl has? Why not just use "weapon" or "armed", from games perspective, it would make MUCH more sense, same thing counts for Armor.

We should remove "bathing attendant" to OW categories during the next review, as CW said: it doesn't have enough pics to be useful.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 06:43:54 PM
PS: Does any of you has a screen with res lower than 1280x800 by the way???
I have 1280x1024 at work. I guess it won't be quite the same.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 06:48:23 PM
I have 1280x1024 at work. I guess it won't be quite the same.

Will be about the same, you'll have some empty space at the bottom of the screen. Also, you can edit categories in json/xml files.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 07, 2013, 06:57:39 PM
"spanked" + "do spanking" are prolly an overkill, since we decided to use active and passive to indicate who's doing what in bdsm? Should we kill those in favor of just spanking?
Yup.

We could add "kisses" or "do kiss" for dates, I've seen a couple of pics like that?
Isn't it too much detail? And I do my best to avoid such pics for dates, at most of them you can clearly see that the man is not MC.

Why exactly do we care what kind of weapon girl has? Why not just use "weapon" or "armed", from games perspective, it would make MUCH more sense, same thing counts for Armor.
I agree with weapon part (we still do need magic tag, I think), as for armor, some characters wear it most of the time, like my last random soldier pack. Do we really need it?

We should remove "bathing attendant" to OW categories during the next review, as CW said: it doesn't have enough pics to be useful.
What to do with such pics then?  :)

Not death, just hurt (like they've just been to battle + some wounds). I could use those for Arena.
I understand. But such pics are very rare, even more rare than bath ones, at least for my current characters.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 07, 2013, 07:05:34 PM
Yup.
Isn't it too much detail? And I do my best to avoid such pics for dates, at most of them you can clearly see that the man is not MC.
I agree with weapon part (we still do need magic tag, I think), as for armor, some characters wear it most of the time, like my last random soldier pack. Do we really need it?

Oki, so @ next review:

"spanking"
"weapon"

(Armor was requested by CW so he decides) + (Could also be used for Arena/Exploration), question is if we need all three categories or will "armor" be enough?

What to do with such pics then?  :)

Tag them, I am not removing the tag from the software, simply moving it :)

Edit:

Oki, I am going to get some ZzzzZZzZzzzs. Leave your posts with requests and I'll post a new review tomorrow morning or you could just edit the json files yourselves.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 08, 2013, 12:43:01 AM
We could add "kisses" or "do kiss" for dates, I've seen a couple of pics like that?
I agree with DarkTl here, this will just not work. I think that a cute blushing pics is all that date needs for such situations.   
 _______________ i found that If i set two different things in s1/s2 and mood1/mood2 only the first is saved. also lolita  outfit and tired expresions selectioms are duplicated in program      
 
 ___________________  there are girls who wears armor/magician outfit as theirs standatd clothes and also a few pictures when girls wear those as warrior or witch/maho shoujo cosplays. i was just  thinking that if we were going that far to have something like nutse, we could also have a magician. but i don't really care that much.  modern doesnt feel nescesary to me if we keep uniform in.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 04:13:37 AM
_______________ i found that If i set two different things in s1/s2 and mood1/mood2 only the first is saved. also lolita  outfit and tired expresions selectioms are duplicated in program       

It would take me hours to find out what's going on there since the software wasn't written by me, prolly minutes to Rudi so I've examined style and mood categories and split them in two (as the only styles that can be doubles seem to be exposed and animal cosplay (like cat/bunny etc.))

Second mood is now with OW tags.

___________________  there are girls who wears armor/magician outfit as theirs standatd clothes and also a few pictures when girls wear those as warrior or witch/maho shoujo cosplays. i was just  thinking that if we were going that far to have something like nutse, we could also have a magician. but i don't really care that much.  modern doesnt feel nescesary to me if we keep uniform in.

Ok, so I've added:

(Mood)
"ecstatic" (usually after sex)
"uncertain" (usually during sex)
"defiant" (usually profile pics) (there are a lot of those for many characters and we could use those for slave training)
"confident" (maybe an overkill, slightly less defiant :) )
"cute" (maybe for profile pics, I'll remove it if you don't want/need this one)

(Other)
"weapon"
"armor"
"magician"
"witch"
"spanking"

and removed doubles:

"lolita"
"tired"
"weapons/armor specifications"
"spanked/do spanking"

===================================================
Link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 05:51:22 AM
Cute again? I removed cute trait because of its subjectivity, and now we have such tag?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 05:58:33 AM
Cute again? I removed cute trait because of its subjectivity, and now we have such tag?

As I've said, I'll remove it if it's not useful but cute as trait and as a tag are two different things.

PS: Take a look at Alkions dungeon: http://eliont-twilight.blogspot.ru/2013/10/30.html

We've finished testing it 10 mins ago and all bugs should be squashed...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 06:11:38 AM
It's a subjective and vague concept towards both a character and a separate picture of a character.

What we might need is a blush tag. There are pics where they blush even for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 06:43:40 AM
It's a subjective and vague concept towards both a character and a separate picture of a character.

It's a lot less subjective if applied to a specific look on the picture than to character as a trait.

What we might need is a blush tag. There are pics where they blush even for no apparent reason.

Might be to specific to be useful? But it will definitely apply to a LOT of pictures.

Also, there is no "pretty" or "beautiful" tag unless I am mistaken? It could be useful for events/quests where the girl took obvious effort to make herself pretty.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 06:49:42 AM
It's a lot less subjective if applied to a specific look on the picture than to character as a trait.
Can you give an example of objectively cute pic?

Also, there is no "pretty" or "beautiful" tag unless I am mistaken?
That's what beauty catagory was for, looks like we forgot about it. And about etiquette category too.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 07:35:38 AM
Can you give an example of objectively cute pic?

Objectively Cute Pic (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/cute-anime-girl.jpg)

We'll remove it in the next overview :)

That's what beauty catagory was for, looks like we forgot about it. And about etiquette category too.

I think there is some form of an etiquette category in the OW tags, "beauty" we should add as a subtag to profile, not as main.

So:

Remove:
"cute"

Add:
"beauty"
"etiquette"
"blushing" (maybe)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 07:43:11 AM
Objectively Cute Pic (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/cute-anime-girl.jpg)
Sorry, she doesn't seem cute to me, only pretty  :D

PS: Take a look at Alkions dungeon: http://eliont-twilight.blogspot.ru/2013/10/30.html (http://eliont-twilight.blogspot.ru/2013/10/30.html)
As always, unintuitiveness of interface is amazing  :D
I wonder why you can attack your allies if you want to.

EE looks interesting (BE is too simple though), I guess we could use it, but maybe with random encounters (or maybe new visible enemies will appear on the map over time) and probably with one-three full exploring patries instead of ~10 lone cbaracters.
 
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 02:12:55 PM
As always, unintuitiveness of interface is amazing  :D
I wonder why you can attack your allies if you want to.

Maybe he'll block it in the future but there are plenty of good games that allow attacking allies.

EE looks interesting (BE is too simple though), I guess we could use it, but maybe with random encounters (or maybe new visible enemies will appear on the map over time) and probably with one-three full exploring patries instead of ~10 lone cbaracters.

We'll figure something out, but not in he near future I expect.

==============================
Did you guys try tagging some images? Do we need any more tags or should something be removed/adjusted?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 02:16:35 PM
I'd say let's remove cute and add beauty and etiquette and start full-scale tagging. Without blush (an overkill, I think).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 02:48:31 PM
I'd say let's remove cute and add beauty and etiquette and start full-scale tagging. Without blush (an overkill, I think).

Oki, tell me when any girl with decent amount of pics is done, I wanna try loading new tags into the game and see what we can do with them. There is also quite a bit of work to be done for proper sorting and fallbacks. I guess it'll be one step at a time as usual.

For now, I'll see if I can put couple of hours into Arena tonight, it's been sitting on a shelf for a couple of days now.

=================================
Link:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 02:54:33 PM
So, should I use one guy/one girl tags for "standard" sex/anal pics?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 03:31:38 PM
So, should I use one guy/one girl tags for "standard" sex/anal pics?

Yeap, better compatibility with other games and we have no idea if WM system is actually better than straight approach. Lets add it for bj/sex/anal just in case if it's not to much trouble.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 03:37:18 PM
What's the difference between mood1 and mood2?

I think I'll tag one girl for a start and upload it, you will take a look then and tell me if something is wrong.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 03:41:15 PM
What's the difference between mood1 and mood2?

I think I'll tag one girl for a start and upload it, you will take a look then and tell me if something is wrong.

I expect that there is no difference, I though that there might be some crazy picture where two moods might be applicable.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 08, 2013, 04:07:59 PM
Did you guys try tagging some images? Do we need any more tags or should something be removed/adjusted?
Not yet, but if that's what we need now, then I try to quickly tag at least some when I get home and write my option.
------------------
I have found at least one Yukata pic for most girls, so I think it's worth its own outfit tag?
-----------------
I don't see mood2 in latest version.... EDIT *I see it now, sorry!*
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 04:21:07 PM
Current interface is unacceptable. Way too many tags, I tagged like 25 pics for half a hour.
Of course, it will be faster when I'll get used to it, but it still will take days to tag big packs.

Tagger need some kind of tabs. If I'm tagging profile pic, I don't need two dozen of sex subtags (even if I do, it will be rare, and in such rare cases I will select sex subtags tab), and vice versa.
For example, "background" tab with no bg, simple bg, night, winter, autumn, indoor, outdoor.

sex|les|anal|profile|background|clothing|etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
|X no bg                       indoor: living room       |
|O simple bg                outdoor: _______        |
|O night                                                            |
|O winter                                                          |
|X autumn                                                         |
|____________________________________|

Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.

Oh, and do we need accurate tags like library or stairs?

I don't see mood2 in latest version....
I downloaded the last version with Xela link, there is mood2 far to the right.

I expect that there is no difference, I though that there might be some crazy picture where two moods might be applicable.
Then for mood we need mood2 panel only.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 08, 2013, 04:51:50 PM
Tagger need some kind of tabs.
My development version already has them :)
I also moved the tag editor into the middle and the image viewer into a dockable window, as requested by Xela.

Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.
I know, tagging the clothing eats a lot of time. What I usually do when I start tagging a new bunch of pics is to just add the style tag and ignore all other clothing tags. That gives the game a basic idea what kind of clothing the girl is wearing. Later, when all the more important tags are in place, I go over the images a second time and add the clothing tags.

In general, tagging like this is a slower approach to image pack making, but you also get a lot more information about the images than just a general category. IMHO it's worth the trade off.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 05:03:06 PM
My development version already has them :)
I also moved the tag editor into the middle and the image viewer into a dockable window, as requested by Xela.
Now that's the version I want to work with  :)


Btw, is it possible to customise interface? For example, we use scissors tag for tribadism to avoid mistakes among modders, but can I somehow change its name to tribadism in interface only for my own convenience?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 05:10:58 PM
Current interface is unacceptable. Way too many tags, I tagged like 25 pics for half a hour.
Of course, it will be faster when I'll get used to it, but it still will take days to tag big packs.

It'll get a lot faster with experience I expect.

Let me explain to you what happened. When I saw this software for the first time (original layout version), one of the most inconvenient things seemed to be that on normal laptop screen, tagger would have to scroll sideways to get to some of the common tags. So before there is a version with some sort of solution to that problem, I've decided to put all tags that I felt would tag 99.5% of PyTFall's pictures in the sight of a laptop screen with a common resolution or any screen larger than that. Assuming you use the same window layout as in my pics.

Tagger need some kind of tabs. If I'm tagging profile pic, I don't need two dozen of sex subtags (even if I do, it will be rare, and in such rare cases I will select sex subtags tab), and vice versa.
For example, "background" tab with no bg, simple bg, night, winter, autumn, indoor, outdoor.

sex|les|anal|profile|background|clothing|etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
|X no bg                       indoor: living room       |
|O simple bg                outdoor: _______        |
|O night                                                            |
|O winter                                                          |
|X autumn                                                         |
|____________________________________|

No bg and autumn should be incompatible tags  ???

I understand what you're saying but even if Rudi adds tabs to the software at some point, it might become even harder to remember where the tags are. Also don't forget that with time, we may not even rename pics anymore so you will not have the convenience of pictures in by name categories. Tabs in such case will drive you nuts.


Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.

We've discussed this with CW in one of the previous posts and decided not to bother with it. Basically all tags in third large column called detail, are optional and might not be useful to PyTFall at all or at least not until a very late stage of development, they just remain from the original version (mood excluded but we have that already). We've decided not to bother with spectators if I recall.

Oh, and do we need accurate tags like library or stairs?

I am not sure... the thing is that lately I've been thinking that for events that require such detailed precision, it might be faster to clear backgrounds from 4 - 5 decent profile pics per girl and use those on a background of a library or stairs. For sex events, especially during jobs, I'd say only non residential tag would be useful to avoid obviously out of place pics. So it's just another decision that we have to make... on the other hand, if we are going to tag inside images, we might as well do it right?

@CW:

If you want me to make an event based on Yakata or use it yourself, I'll add it to styles.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 08, 2013, 05:35:52 PM
We still don't need two moods. Either mutually exclusive list or multimood panel.

No bg and autumn should be incompatible tags  ???

I understand what you're saying but even if Rudi adds tabs to the software at some point, it might become even harder to remember where the tags are. Also don't forget that with time, we may not even rename pics anymore so you will not have the convenience of pictures in by name categories. Tabs in such case will drive you nuts.
Let's say it's a backgroundless picture with a couple of autumn yellow leaves flying around girl  :)

As for tabs, that's a subjective thing. The software I'm often working with uses tabs very actively, so I get used to them.
I guess I'll finish Alice from Touhou for testing purposes, but I'd like to have tabs version before full-scale tagging. It will save a lot of time.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 08, 2013, 05:40:49 PM
Ok, I just started and I don't understand a few things right of the bat:

What is active/passive? (I got lost in the discussion about it earlier)
What is the difference between on side and spooning positions?
May I also tag this (http://img24.eu/images/jddhs4v6.jpg) as POV?
Artistic BGs are supposed to be tagless? (as they are neither simple, nor showing anything)
Do we want mood tags for sex pics too?


If you want me to make an event based on Yukata or use it yourself, I'll add it to styles.
Summer festival where these are worn was in almost every romantic VN or anime I have seen... but I really doubt I will ever made event like that.
In girlpacks, I was using these mostly for etiquette category.
--------------

I suggest to move topless from style1, to style2, so it can be combined with other outfits.
Also to remove panties (could be lingerie+topless) and witch (magician should be enough)
Rename bloomers to gym clothes (better name for a style)

I would add Yukata and Santa costume instead.

There are some tags that have original "learn" equivalent (singer x learn singing...). I think we should hide those in out version to avoid confusion.

---------------

While not perfect yet for sure, I don't really mind anything on our current layout that much.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 08, 2013, 05:55:26 PM
Plan was to use the categories, yes. Like I've said, our whole tagging strategy will revolve around those... I'd love to hear the sorting strategies but I am not sure how much I trust Pytherworld's fallbacks at it's stage of development and testing.
Yeah, I'd also rather fix my own bugs than someone elses...
You should know though that dynamic image selection based on tags has always been to core development effort in Pytherworld. The current system is the fourth or fifth major iteration/rewrite. It's not untested any more. I do concede that heavier usage will surely bring many solvable problems to the surface, but I'm confident that the basic approach will work. I have used this code with a database of about 15000 images and 180000 tags.

Now, let me take you through the process of selecting an image for a task in Pytherworld in order to explain the sorting strategy at work.

Selecting an image for a task in Pytherworld

Each image search starts with the complete database of images. Steps 1-3 are filtering steps that drastically reduce the size of the database. Steps 4-6 are concerned with sorting the remaining images according to how well they match the ingame situation.

1) In the first step, most images are excluded from the database to narrow down the search. This is done by removing all images that do not have a main character with the same race and hair color as the girl performing the task we want to find an image for.

2) Tasks may specify tags that must be on the image displaying the task. These are called required tags. All images that do not carry all required tags are removed from the database.

3) Tasks may also specify tags that must not be on the image displaying the task. These are called excluded tags. All images that carry any excluded tag are removed from the database.

Now our goal is to sort all remaining images according to how well they represent the task we want to visualize.

4) Our first consideration are the looks of the girl performing the task. We will create a dictionary that contains all tags that can be used to describe the looks of a character and assign each tag a score between -500 and +500, depending on how similar that tag is to the looks of the girl. Example:
Our girl has light blonde hair. The tag "lightblonde hair" will get +500. "darkblonde hair" will get +400. "black hair" will get -500 and so on.

5) At this point, the image ranking rules specified by the task, the scoring tags, come into play. Every task may provide a dictionary of tags and scores which reflects that some tags may be nice to have but are not essential (positive score), while others should probably not be on the task image, but are no dealbreakers either (negative score).
The scoring tags are combined with the dictionary from 4) to create the scoringdict. Using this dict, we can calculate a score from the tags on each image and therefore rank all images according to how well they reflect our task and girl.

6) Based on the ranking performed in 5), we would like to select an image that reflects our task well. The best match is the image with the highest score, but always choosing the same image is boring. We don't know how many other good images there are, so we want a selection of images with high scores to choose from. To that end, we take the scoredict and calculate the maximal score that can theoretically be achieved in this ranking. Then we reduce the maximal score by a user-defined percentage (5 to 25% are useful values) and get a threshold score that each image must reach to get into the final selection. If no image reaches the threshold, we know our search did not yield any good matches and can take countermeasures or just lower the threshold. Another possible route is to start a search for a profile image, which is the fallback strategy used in Pytherworld.

7) From our final selection of nicely matching images we simply take the ten with the highest score and randomly pick one.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 08, 2013, 06:01:12 PM
Now that's the version I want to work with  :)
I know. I'd like to get a few additional changes in before I release a new version though. A release usually eats up all the spare time I have for a day.

Btw, is it possible to customise interface? For example, we use scissors tag for tribadism to avoid mistakes among modders, but can I somehow change its name to tribadism in interface only for my own convenience?
Of course it's possible, but it will surely create confusing configuration options and general confusion about the real "value" of a tag. I doubt it's a good idea to be honest.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 06:29:01 PM
What is active/passive? (I got lost in the discussion about it earlier)

Two meanings:

1) From earlier post (normal sex pics):

Quote
"active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the mc participating in ANY WAY in the act or just does nothing but getting fucked.

Active Anal (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/anal%200.png)
Passive Anal (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/anal%203.jpg)

2) group and bdsm:

"active" - Would mean that the girl is doing the punishment (acting out the act).

"passive" - Most pics will be like this, girl is taking the punishment or having bdsm/group act performed to her.

What is the difference between on side and spooning positions?

Spooning = they both lie vertically
onside = girl is on the side, guy is standing, kneeling.


May I also tag this (http://img24.eu/images/jddhs4v6.jpg) as POV?

If I understood Rudi correctly, yes. But it's what I've called "partner hidden" so we might use both or just one tag.


Artistic BGs are supposed to be tagless? (as they are neither simple, nor showing anything)

Yes, it's implied.


Do we want mood tags for sex pics too?

Yes and especially "indifferent", "ecstatic" and so on. I think I can use them in brothel events. If nothing applies, don't tag them with mood tags.

I suggest to move topless from style1, to style2, or remove it completely as we have exposed tag here that could mean the same.

Remove it might be an overkill, topless pics we can most likely find use for...

- move topless

Also to remove panties (doesn't make sense) and witch (magician should be enough) styles
I would add Yukata and Santa costume instead.

- remove witch

- add santa
- add yukata
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 08, 2013, 06:42:38 PM
If I understood Rudi correctly, yes. But it's what I've called "partner hidden" so we might use both or just one tag.
Ok, partner hidden is it then. (both are equally confusing  :D ) (Tag for images that could be used for player interactions seems like one of the most useful ones)

Yes and especially "indifferent", "ecstatic" and so on. I think I can use them in brothel events. If nothing applies, don't tag them with mood tags.

Ok, I'll try... it's just really hard to tell sometimes from all those funny faces  :)


Thanks for all answers!

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 08, 2013, 07:00:07 PM
Yeah, I'd also rather fix my own bugs than someone elses...
You should know though that dynamic image selection based on tags has always been to core development effort in Pytherworld. The current system is the fourth or fifth major iteration/rewrite. It's not untested any more. I do concede that heavier usage will surely bring many solvable problems to the surface, but I'm confident that the basic approach will work. I have used this code with a database of about 15000 images and 180000 tags.

--------------------------------

It may take a very long time for me to fall into thinking pattern like this. You have coded it from a whole different perspective. It's almost like a facial/body recognition software of sorts.

I see tagging system as very powerful tool to use in creating better/more precise random events and checks for availability of those events. I don't expect it to get any more advanced than that in PyTFall so most of these steps are not applicable.

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 09, 2013, 02:22:14 AM
The only facial/body recognition at work here is the human mind. The rest is just comparing combinations of keywords and finding an optimal match. Finding the best image for a particular situation, e.g. a random event, is exactly what it's built for. Since the code is already written, I thought you might want to take advantage of that.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 04:12:13 AM
I think we should use mood2 panel after all. There are pictures where mood could be interpreted in different ways.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 04:25:48 AM
The only facial/body recognition at work here is the human mind. The rest is just comparing combinations of keywords and finding an optimal match. Finding the best image for a particular situation, e.g. a random event, is exactly what it's built for. Since the code is already written, I thought you might want to take advantage of that.

That would prolly be wise... Let me play around with one properly tagged girl in familiar PyTFall environment for a bit to figure out what's what.

I think we should use mood2 panel after all. There are pictures where mood could be interpreted in different ways.

Oki
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 08:43:08 AM
I believe all mutually exclusive lists, like dress or in/out, should be in alphabetical order, except 2-3 most common ones that should be on top, like casual/nude/bikini for dress, generic/bedroom/living for in and generic/beach for out.

Secondly, I don't see anything close to onsen, except pool. Should I use it?

And we don't have street/city/something similar for outdoor.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
I believe all mutually exclusive lists, like dress or in/out, should be in alphabetical order, except 2-3 most common ones that should be on top, like casual/nude/bikini for dress, generic/bedroom/living for in and generic/beach for out.

You can reposition them as you like in JSON.

Secondly, I don't see anything close to onsen, except pool. Should I use it?

I'll add the tags we've discussed in other thread and onsen than.

And we don't have street/city/something similar for outdoor.

- "urban" I think? Will mean there are buildings nearby?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 09:12:49 AM
You can reposition them as you like in JSON.
Um, which one?

- "urban" I think? Will mean there are buildings nearby?
Yup, obvious city street and/or buildings.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 09:23:24 AM
Um, which one?

scenetags, charactertags, clothingtags in tags folder. They should appear in the same order in the game as they are in the lists.

I'll add new tags and upload a fresh review.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
Everything we've discussed + I've removed "bloomers". We could get rid of a lot of tags I expect, but for now, lets just tag a girl or two to see how it goes...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 09:52:16 AM
Nice, the more customizable interface the better  :)
I expect to finish tagging of the girl with 500+ pics today. It's not that hard when you get used to ignore excess tags (but with tabs you won't even need that, I believe).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 09, 2013, 10:39:31 AM
Everything we've discussed + I've removed "bloomers".
If you don't like bloomers, then change it to a gym or sport tag instead, but please keep it somehow.  :(
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 10:44:20 AM
If you don't like bloomers, then change it to a gym or sport tag instead, but please keep it somehow.  :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomers_%28clothing%29

How is this sportclothing? What tag do you need?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 09, 2013, 11:05:55 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomers_%28clothing%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomers_%28clothing%29)

How is this sportclothing? What tag do you need?
If you actually look at the bottom of that article, you'll see a part about using them in Japan schools even with a picture example  :)  It's just another clothing fetish, same like blue school swimsuits.
 Hinata (http://img24.eu/images/e5y4vg6.jpg) , Hotaru (http://img24.eu/images/md414wp.jpg) , Asuka (http://img24.eu/images/zkbge5yb.jpg) , Rei (http://img24.eu/images/u96yqe.jpg) ...
Correct non-confusing tag would be "gym uniform"


Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 11:16:22 AM
If you actually look at the bottom of that article, you'll see a part about using them in Japan schools even with a picture example  :)  It's just another clothing fetish, same like blue school swimsuits.
 Hinata (http://img24.eu/images/e5y4vg6.jpg) , Hotaru (http://img24.eu/images/md414wp.jpg) , Asuka (http://img24.eu/images/zkbge5yb.jpg) , Rei (http://img24.eu/images/u96yqe.jpg) ...
Correct non-confusing tag would be "gym uniform"

Gym uniform added.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 12:10:26 PM
Do we need both strip general tag and stripping subtag? What's the difference?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 09, 2013, 12:30:01 PM
Gym uniform added.
Thanks!


Do we want active/passive on every sex picture, or I can leave it empty for pics that could be both?
Also, must every pics have a main category?



And I think "Ripped clothes" could be a good s2 tag.


I should also have one character tagged later today.
*EDIT* I fell exhausted after 300 images, so it will be at tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 01:00:57 PM
Anyway, here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79429937/Touhou.7z) 500+ tagged character with a separate xml. Without that additional  stripping subtag.

I can safely say that with the current amount of tags and interface my productivity is about 200 pics per day (and I mean tagging only). Not too many.
We defenitely could remove a lot tags, primarily because we are tagging not to tag, but to use tags in code, and some of them are hard to use there.
Also some tags, like passive/active, are very vague, and some tags are useless, like "no bg". All my pics have background, ecxept for quest, battle sprite and portrait. Because I convert them to jpg to save some space.

I think we don't need beast after all. Since we decided to not use such pics, let's stick to this decision unless people will ask about it.

I still think we can live without "rare" positions, like spoon or on side. Maybe also standing.
They all could be described by missionary and doggy.

Talking and walking are pretty rare and seem useless to me.
Talking usualy means a lot of different characters, I don't use such pics. And walking is a vague thing, since we can't use animated pics anyway.

I guess we could use as many dress styles as we want, but do we really need such a high accuracy like gym uniform (+summer dress and/or sport tags) or yukata (=formal tag)? I mean, how are you gonna use such rare things in the code?
Same for secretary and long dress, an overkill to me. We already have more general formal and fashionable tags.

I think we don't need empty room (=generic indoor) and basement (=dungeon or generic), office (=pretty much living room), shack (rare), stable(even more rare), stairs(=generic), studio (=stage) and maybe workshop (quite rare, often the same as generic or living).

Harbor and hills are ovekill too.

Running, exercise and sport are too much for one type of pics.

I guess it's all the complaints that I have for now  ;D
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 02:03:40 PM
@Dark

Amount of tags we have now seems like an overkill. I agree with everything except removing "rare" sexual positions because I already had plans on what to do for those tags... but many locations can be removed or moved elsewhere as well as some clothing styles.

Otherwise, I'll try to load your tags into the game and see what's what.

@CW

Not every tag must have a main category, pure date pics for example are assumed to have no bg and profile + date with bg (but I can straighten that out with code later).

Add:

- ripped clothes


Active/Passive might not be clear for every picture BUT I think we'll have good use for pics where player can definitely tell.

==================================================
@Dark (again)

I would have used different tags for quite a few images but that's unavoidable with pack making. One important thing, is that "one girl" should prolly ALWAYS mean extra girl, not the mc of the pic.

In any case, lets see if I can load this prototype, I need to refresh my memory on how the whole loading thing works as I haven't touched it in a while.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 02:17:13 PM
I agree with everything except removing "rare" sexual positions because I already had plans on what to do for those tags... but many locations can be removed or moved elsewhere as well as some clothing styles.
Maybe you could provide a couple of hentai examples for spoon and onside then? Wiki has too schematic images, so I'm not sure I understand their meaning  :)

Active/Passive might not be clear for every picture BUT I think we'll have good use for pics where player can definitely tell.
Maybe we сould use active only then? Usually you can tell if a girl is active or not, while passive is more vague concept.

Not every tag must have a main category, pure date pics for example are assumed to have no bg and profile + date with bg
Too late, I considered date pics as profile ones  :)
Although some of them do have simple background (I don't have no bg at all, as I mentioned).

I would have used different tags for quite a few images but that's unavoidable with pack making
Be my guest and verify all our packs if you have spare time  ;)

One important thing, is that "one girl" should prolly ALWAYS mean extra girl, not the mc of the pic.
Lol. I asked you if I should put one girl and one guy tags on "usual" sex/anal/bj pics. You said that I should.
Btw, if there just was sex on a pic, but you don't see a guy anymore, it means sex+one girl tag to me.

I do not mind though. This way such tags will be used in group only = faster tagging. As for "invisible" guy, I'll just use hidden partner tag.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 09, 2013, 03:17:45 PM
I think we don't need empty room (=generic indoor) and basement (=dungeon or generic), office (=pretty much living room), shack (rare), stable(even more rare), stairs(=generic), studio (=stage) and maybe workshop (quite rare, often the same as generic or living).
"generic indoor" means a simple wall or window or corner as background, something that is so generic that it could be found in most buildings. An empty room, however, is just that and therefore more specific. A "generic indoor" pic could show part of a bedroom, an "empty room" pic could not.

A "studio" is a special purpose room such as a dancing studio or fitness studio. IMHO it does not look like a stage.

A "workshop" pic should show work benches or tools, both of which should not be on "generic indoor" or "living room" pics.


Harbor and hills are ovekill too.
"harbor" seems too specific, I agree. "hills" is the only location tag for non-flat terrain.



UPDATE:
One important thing, is that "one girl" should prolly ALWAYS mean extra girl, not the mc of the pic.
That is exactly how it's meant to work. After all, "one girl" is a tag from the "partners" category ;)
In addition, it makes no sense to have a tag that will be on every image in the database. It may make sense if male slaves are implemented at some point, but I'd suggest to worry about that when (if) it happens.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 09, 2013, 03:36:36 PM
"generic indoor" means a simple wall or window or corner as background, something that is so generic that it could be found in most buildings. An empty room, however, is just that and therefore more specific. A "generic indoor" pic could show part of a bedroom, an "empty room" pic could not.
If I see a part of bedroom, I will use bedroom tag.
What I don't understand is the difference between generic and empty in terms of coding. Why we need a separate tag, what events could be implemented in an empty room only, but not in generic?

A "studio" is a special purpose room such as a dancing studio or fitness studio. IMHO it does not look like a stage.
Yeah, that could be useful in theory. But none of my packs, and I mean all my packs, have pics with studio background. So I think it's just too rare. At least stage is much more common.

A "workshop" pic should show work benches or tools, both of which should not be on "generic indoor" or "living room" pics.
Not as rare, but still rare. It was hard to find a simple workshop background for a weapon shop, workshop backgrounds with specific characters even more rare. Unless we talking about inventor/smith/whatever. Since only several characters will use this tag, we might as well use backgroundless pics on empty workshop background if we'll need it.

"harbor" seems too specific, I agree. "hills" is the only location tag for non-flat terrain.
Hills are usualy covered with grass = meadow. I think hills without grass look like rocks or something. And we don't have rocks tag, btw.
Maybe we could use one tag like wasteland for such places, however I don't remember many such pics.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
Ok, so with some tinkering, I finally managed to load new girl with all of her tags into PyTFall:

Quote
INFO     PytFall 0.32    Loading: Tag Database
INFO     PytFall 0.32.tags loaded 6378 images from tags.json files
INFO     PytFall 0.32    It took 0.384000062943 secs to execute!

Quote
INFO     PytFall 0.32    Loading: Tag Database
INFO     PytFall 0.32.tags loaded 6880 images from tags.json files
INFO     PytFall 0.32    It took 0.625 secs to execute!

Extra time prolly comes from string manipulations I had to do to each image in order to make tagger's JSONs work with PyTFall, I'll find better/faster way in the future or maybe we can get tagger to do most of the work on JSON creation. Otherwise everything seems to be going rather well, I'll play with it some more tonight.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 05:02:31 PM
Oki, finally got a report out:

Code: [Select]
u'+undressing': 5,
 u'active': 22,
 u'anal': 5,
 u'angry': 23,
 u'armor': 1,
 u'autumn': 2,
 u'bar': 1,
 u'bathing attendent': 3,
 u'bathroom': 5,
 u'battle': 14,
 u'battle_sprite': 1,
 u'bdsm': 27,
 u'beach': 8,
 u'beauty': 3,
 u'bedroom': 91,
 u'bikini': 14,
 u'blowjob': 10,
 u'bukkake': 2,
 u'bunny': 3,
 u'caress tits': 1,
 u'caressed': 4,
 u'casual': 330,
 u'cat': 1,
 u'classroom': 2,
 u'cleaning': 3,
 u'confident': 78,
 u'cooking': 1,
 u'couple group sex': 1,
 u'cumcovered': 2,
 u'dancer': 2,
 u'date': 8,
 u'defiant': 16,
 u'deflowered': 3,
 u'device': 7,
 u'dildo joined': 1,
 u'do caress': 5,
 u'do finger pussy': 2,
 u'do squeezes tits': 4,
 u'doggy': 3,
 u'dominatrix': 1,
 u'drunk': 2,
 u'dungeon': 3,
 u'eating': 10,
 u'ecstatic': 69,
 u'ent': 19,
 u'etiquette': 3,
 u'exposed': 95,
 u'fashionable': 8,
 u'fighting': 9,
 u'finger pussy': 3,
 u'footjob': 4,
 u'forced': 3,
 u'forest': 9,
 u'formal': 7,
 u'gambling': 2,
 u'gangbang': 1,
 u'generic indoor': 80,
 u'generic outdoor': 26,
 u'group': 9,
 u'handjob': 3,
 u'happy': 71,
 u'harbor': 1,
 u'healing': 1,
 u'hug': 1,
 u'indifferent': 113,
 u'kissed': 1,
 u'kissing': 2,
 u'kitchen': 1,
 u'lashed': 9,
 u'les': 21,
 u'library': 4,
 u'lingerie': 18,
 u'living room': 18,
 u'lolita': 11,
 u'long dress': 4,
 u'magic': 10,
 u'magician': 3,
 u'maid': 8,
 u'masturbation': 14,
 u'meadow': 3,
 u'missionary': 15,
 u'more girls': 1,
 u'more guys': 2,
 u'musician': 3,
 u'night': 23,
 u'no bg': 6,
 u'nude': 60,
 u'one girl': 100,
 u'one guy': 43,
 u'onsen': 2,
 u'onside': 1,
 u'ontop': 12,
 u'pajamas': 13,
 u'park': 7,
 u'partner hidden': 43,
 u'passive': 64,
 u'pool': 1,
 u'portrait': 1,
 u'profile': 321,
 u'provocative': 37,
 u'quest': 3,
 u'reading': 15,
 u'rest': 73,
 u'restrained': 24,
 u'road': 2,
 u'sad': 51,
 u'santa': 1,
 u'scared': 13,
 u'schoolgirl': 5,
 u'selfpleasure': 1,
 u'sex': 42,
 u'shopping': 1,
 u'shy': 113,
 u'simple bg': 129,
 u'solo': 18,
 u'stage': 4,
 u'standing': 3,
 u'strip': 36,
 u'studying': 2,
 u'summer': 2,
 u'swimsuit': 5,
 u'tired': 28,
 u'titsjob': 7,
 u'topless': 15,
 u'torture': 2,
 u'two girls': 22,
 u'two guys': 6,
 u'uncertain': 82,
 u'uniform': 4,
 u'urban': 1,
 u'waitress': 5,
 u'weapon': 24,
 u'winter': 1,
 u'yard': 1,
 u'yukata': 3
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 09, 2013, 08:48:30 PM
Ok... took a while, but I think that I've finally got it working.

A gallery to inspect the tags:


(http://img43.imagevenue.com/loc595/th_364993276_10_10_20133_14_14_122_595lo.jpg) (http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=364993276_10_10_20133_14_14_122_595lo.jpg) (http://img230.imagevenue.com/loc205/th_364994759_10_10_20133_16_38_122_205lo.jpg) (http://img230.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=364994759_10_10_20133_16_38_122_205lo.jpg)

In the viewport to the right: Tag sorting button vs amount of images tagged with that tag for the character.
Above the picture: All tags of the image displayed.
Left/Right buttons do the obvious thing.

DB version has been updated to 0.32!

Important:

1) Do not mix the old and new tagging methods for the same girl! (if you tag the girl with software and have her in old style "folder-wide" tags.json file, delete her from the old file). Actually, nothing bad will happen even if you have her twice but you might get bad "imagename" tags, especially if those were not renamed as in the old system.

2) When you create JSON files with tagging software (file name must be tags.json), make sure that all pics are in their respective place in pytfall folder (like "\game\content\chars\naruto\Hinata" (the usual)). Save the file into that very same GIRL folder, not the show folder where the old system puts them. (it doesn't really matter where you put the files as long as it in char or rchar folders, problem is that you might overwrite the oldstyle filename based JSON).

3) You do not have to press the rebuild buttons to get new tags, they will just be loaded into the game (if you press build button, like I've said, nothing bad or game breaking will happen but tags will be loaded from both files and you could get some weird tags in the gallery (will not effect gameplay otherwise)).

@3 Couldn't sleep so I've killed populating "old system" tags to json if there is a tags.json file in girl's folder. Now Build buttons can be freely used again.

4) Arena is sorting teams and warriors but it is only possible to fight dogfights and currently noone will dare to accept challenge from the hero there cause his stats are through the roof. Also, only part of stats are being upgraded even if hero wins. I am planning to do the "winning" screen next.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 06:27:17 AM
You can create a json with tagger? I don't see such an option in the interface.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 10, 2013, 06:42:43 AM
You can create a json with tagger? I don't see such an option in the interface.

I think it's called "export" or something similar. Remember that the images must be in the correct folder in the game or path will be screwed up.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 07:14:23 AM
You mean if I, for example, store a girl in D:\PytFall\Girls\Ar_tonelico\Jacqli, then I can't just save tags inside Jacqli folder and upload it? And at first I have to put the girl in Pytfall content\chars\Ar_tonelico\Jacqli folder, and only then I can safely export tags?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 10, 2013, 07:43:43 AM
You mean if I, for example, store a girl in D:\PytFall\Girls\Ar_tonelico\Jacqli, then I can't just save tags inside Jacqli folder and upload it? And at first I have to put the girl in Pytfall content\chars\Ar_tonelico\Jacqli folder, and only then I can safely export tags?

That's what I mean, girls enter the game without id tags so game has to get them from somewhere.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 07:49:36 AM
I don't understand why I cannot just save tags json inside Jacqli folder, wherever it was, and upload Ar_tonelico folder?
Then someone will download it to play with and copy it to content\chars folder.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 10, 2013, 08:13:27 AM
I don't understand why I cannot just save tags json inside Jacqli folder, wherever it was, and upload Ar_tonelico folder?
Then someone will download it to play with and copy it to content\chars folder.

How detailed would you like explanation to be?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 08:15:39 AM
We don't need girls to be in game folder when we create data xmls/jsons. Tags jsons are the same, except you need one for every girl instead of one per pack.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 10, 2013, 08:28:43 AM
We don't need girls to be in game folder when we create data xmls/jsons. Tags jsons are the same, except you need one for every girl instead of one per pack.

They are actually somewhat different... but that's not the point. Right now code will misread the path on the load unless girl was in the correct folder during export. I'll improve it soon, but right now, it will not work.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 08:40:39 AM
Hm, ok. I hope you don't use absolute paths there, otherwise even a different name of the logical drive will screw up everything.

One more thing, from this point (starting from sage random pack) my packs will have simplified pics names, since we won't need special names with the tags system in the future.
I suppose already existing "correctly" named characters should be enough for testing.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 10, 2013, 09:24:50 AM
Hm, ok. I hope you don't use absolute paths there, otherwise even a different name of the logical drive will screw up everything.

One more thing, from this point (starting from sage random pack) my packs will have simplified pics names, since we won't need special names with the tags system in the future.
I suppose already existing "correctly" named characters should be enough for testing.

I've just updated tags classes file in DB. Now it'll work like you want but at a cost that new-style tags.json file MUST be in the girl's folder when the game is launched. Previously, you could have put it anywhere in char/rchar respective folders and it would have worked.

We don't really need any old-style packs... I was 30% done with the arena after battle pop up screen before going back to tags code.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 10, 2013, 09:32:54 AM
Thanks, that's much more convenient for me.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 10, 2013, 08:21:19 PM
Ok, I've made my first attempt to tag something (here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6enmi4pbmq97t4t/tagtest.rar)) and I agree that we could remove some tags, those are my candidates:


in "do -" category there are 3 dildo and strapon tags (should have reversed tags, not it's own extra ones)
"eat pussy", "do eat pussy" (=lick)
"kissed" (=caressed)
"masturbation", "selfpleasure" (=solo+finger pussy or other action)
"bukkake" (=group+cumcovered)
"no bg" (I don't have it anywhere outside battle_sprite/quest where it's obvious and portrait where we don't care)
"running" (=exercise)
"studying" (=reading)
 "talking", "walking" (too vague)


and some actions looks too rare to be useful: gardening, gambling, meditating, healing
and locations too: studio, stairs, stable, shack, basement, workshop, harbor, road


also, "cosplay" would make sense as a style1 tag, because cosplaying girl can't wear anything else at the same time anyway
-------
I didn't miss anything serious in tags, interface of the program is also ok. What gives me the most trouble is describing emotions. I'll ask about a few of those later.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 04:41:43 AM
Ok, I've made my first attempt to tag something (here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6enmi4pbmq97t4t/tagtest.rar)) and I agree that we could remove some tags, those are my candidates:


in "do -" category there are 3 dildo and strapon tags (should have reversed tags, not it's own extra ones)
"eat pussy", "do eat pussy" (=lick)
"kissed" (=caressed)
"masturbation", "selfpleasure" (=solo+finger pussy or other action)
"bukkake" (=group+cumcovered)
"no bg" (I don't have it anywhere outside battle_sprite/quest where it's obvious and portrait where we don't care)
"running" (=exercise)
"studying" (=reading)
 "talking", "walking" (too vague)


and some actions looks too rare to be useful: gardening, gambling, meditating, healing
and locations too: studio, stairs, stable, shack, basement, workshop, harbor, road


also, "cosplay" would make sense as a style1 tag, because cosplaying girl can't wear anything else at the same time anyway
-------
I didn't miss anything serious in tags, interface of the program is also ok. What gives me the most trouble is describing emotions. I'll ask about a few of those later.

Very similar to what Dark said...

- lick is not specific enough to replace eat pussy.
- kissed = forcefully kissed and should be removed only if there are not enough pics.
- no bg might become useful if we start clearing more pics. Also if we just borrow cleaned up pics from OW/SM/SimBro.
- running can be useful if it's not to rare.
- studying, you are prolly right but it can include tags like writing, chemistry and god knows what else...

I think both of you need to come up with a clear list of tags to be added and removed in the following format:

Add:
- bazooka

Remove:
- masturbation

and post them so we could discuss and adjust the tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 05:51:32 AM
- no bg might become useful if we start clearing more pics. Also if we just borrow cleaned up pics from OW/SM/SimBro.
- running can be useful if it's not to rare.
- studying, you are prolly right but it can include tags like writing, chemistry and god knows what else...
1) I'm not going to start anything like that. I guess we could keep that tag only in case if we'll have someone else who want to do it.
2) It is rare, just like walking. I personally think we should use exercising or sport only.
3) I guess you right. Reading is just read a book, studying is actually study something in a lab, or even make your homework.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if we need caressed. Mostly they either caress boobs or crotch, or kissing, and we have other tags for this all.

I believe we don't need passive. Active is enough, all that's not active is pretty much passive.

Not sure if we need deepthroat. Such pics are not too common, and I do not quite imagine how this tag can be used in the code. Bj is bj.
Same for selfpleasure, it's almost = mast.

Do we really need forced? If it's a rape or something, then we should just use bdsm main tag in addition to sex tags.

Do we need stripper if we already have strip main tag? I don't think so.

Meditating is probaly good for events, but I think it's quite rare. Don't recall anything like that in my packs.

About dress, long dress=formal or casual, secretary is pretty rare; yukata we could keep, but it's almost formal to me; whore = lingerie.
Instead of gym we could use summer (you won't wear something like that during winter), and I'm not sure if we need uniform, it's quite vague concept.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 06:29:16 AM
Seriously, keep to the format, it's not that difficult:

Add:
- bazooka (comment)

Remove:
- masturbation (comment)

======================================
On "rare" tags: when we'll have slavetraining, it's bound to have much more categories than we presently use. That means that we'll have to use "generic" faceless pics (or profile pics, depending on what we'll go with) in a bunch of places, one of the points of tagging software is to allow using as many girl pics instead of generic/profile as possible. It's not really that bad if a tag is uncommon, it still can be very useful to the game.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 07:17:02 AM
Lol, ok.

Add:
- sportswear (instead of gym, for anything having to do with sports)
- wilderness (like rocks, hills, etc outside of the city, but still not forest or meadow)
- random item tag for mast. device is a device for mast (like vibrator), random item is a book, weapon, furniture, etc.

Remove:
- bazooka (if you really added that  :) )
- passive (all that not active is passive)
- deepthroat (too detailed to me, there are other types of bj, but we don't use them, right?)
- selfpleasure (pretty much synonym to mast, why bother?)
- deflowered (I usually avoid such pics, since they could be used only once at best, and not all characters are virgins anyway)
- caressed (we have hug, kiss, finger/lick, squeezes tits, what else can you caress that much?)
- forced (=bdsm main tag, or scared/etc tags)
- beast/tentacles
- meditating (way too rare, i think, even though I like this tag)
- gardening (same)
- walking/talking (we don't have animated pics anyway, so it's vague thing)
- running/sport (and use exercising only)
- no bg (=quest, even if we'll have a lot of such pics)
- long dress (=formal or fashionable)
- santa (we don't have new Year)
- secretary (=formal)
- whore (kinda vague)
- maybe yukata (quite common, but = formal dress to me)
- maybe schoolgirl too (there are a lot of school pics, but how is this tag useful for the code?)
- maybe uniform (what is uniform in the given context anyway? not sure I understand)
- basement (=dungeon)
- empty room (usually you can't tell if the room is completely empty, so = generic indoor)
- office (too specific)
- shack (same)
- stable (same)
- stairs (=generic)
- maybe studio (I know rudi wants to keep it, but it still seems way too rare to me)
- workshop (same, don't recall any workshop pics)
- harbor (rare, often=beach)
- hills (don't recall any hills in all my packs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could keep some not too rare tags if you want, but I wonder if they will be useful for the code, considering their rarity.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 07:51:28 AM
Lol, ok.

Add:
- sportswear (instead of gym, for anything having to do with sports)
- wilderness (like rocks, hills, etc outside of the city, but still not forest or meadow)
- random item tag for mast. device is a device for mast (like vibrator), random item is a book, weapon, furniture, etc.

Remove:
- bazooka (if you really added that  :) )
- passive (all that not active is passive)
- deepthroat (too detailed to me, there are other types of bj, but we don't use them, right?)
- selfpleasure (pretty much synonym to mast, why bother?)
- deflowered (I usually avoid such pics, since they could be used only once at best, and not all characters are virgins anyway)
- caressed (we have hug, kiss, finger/lick, squeezes tits, what else can you caress that much?)
- forced (=bdsm main tag, or scared/etc tags)
- beast/tentacles
- meditating (way too rare, i think, even though I like this tag)
- gardening (same)
- walking/talking (we don't have animated pics anyway, so it's vague thing)
- running/sport (and use exercising only)
- no bg (=quest, even if we'll have a lot of such pics)
- long dress (=formal or fashionable)
- santa (we don't have new Year)
- secretary (=formal)
- whore (kinda vague)
- maybe yukata (quite common, but = formal dress to me)
- maybe schoolgirl too (there are a lot of school pics, but how is this tag useful for the code?)
- maybe uniform (what is uniform in the given context anyway? not sure I understand)
- basement (=dungeon)
- empty room (usually you can't tell if the room is completely empty, so = generic indoor)
- office (too specific)
- shack (same)
- stable (same)
- stairs (=generic)
- maybe studio (I know rudi wants to keep it, but it still seems way too rare to me)
- workshop (same, don't recall any workshop pics)
- harbor (rare, often=beach)
- hills (don't recall any hills in all my packs)

+ agree/ - disagree

Add:
- sportswear (+)
- wilderness (+ (maybe nature?))
- random item tag for mast. device is a device for mast (like vibrator), random item is a book, weapon, furniture, etc. (+ vague...)

Remove:
- bazooka (Just a random example)
- passive (+)
- deepthroat (- I want to keep and use this one)
- selfpleasure (+ prolly a stupid idea on my part, I thought it would be useful for some pics)
- deflowered (+/- I've encountered one or two in yours or CW's pack. Either agree no to use those or flag them.)
- caressed (+)
- forced (+, I thought that would be really easy to use in code but you're right)
- beast/tentacles
- meditating (- We just never look for these, could come useful)
- gardening (+)
- walking/talking (+)
- running/sport (-/+ Running we can remove, sport is different from exercise)
- no bg (-)
- long dress (... I don't know, I can't tell if it's useful or not in code.)
- santa (@CW's recent request?)
- secretary (+ it's a fetish... but you're right)
- whore (+ dressed as an obvious trump... but as strange as it sounds, I don't think it's all that useful :) )
- maybe yukata (- CW's recent request...)
- maybe schoolgirl too (- why the feck not? Awesome category to display on school reports at the very least...)
- maybe uniform (military or professional, I don't know how this is useful though...)
- basement (+, it's not the same as a dungeon, but basement is super freaking rare)
- empty room (+ it's more useful for OW as they have different kinds of rooms, still I think it's easier to clean a couple of pics with simple backgrounds to no bg and display on top of room backgrounds than to tag 1000s of images with specific tags)
- office (+)
- shack (+)
- stable (+)
- stairs (+ == generic)
- maybe studio (+ we either leave and use all specific locations or leave a few relevant to the game)
- workshop (+)
- harbor (+)
- hills (+)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could keep some not too rare tags if you want, but I wonder if they will be useful for the code, considering their rarity.

Interactions and slavetraining I expect (as I've pointed out in previous post).

Another thing, we should really remove a couple of backgrounds from simple bg profile pics, it's usually not very difficult and those are bloody useful... if not now, later in development.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 08:16:51 AM
- No bg
What's the difference between no bg and quest then? I don't see it.

- Wildness.
We have meadow, park, forest. They all have plants, and they could be considered as nature too.
What I mean is a tag for some place without plants, and not totally urban. Rocks, caves, etc.

- Deflowered
If there are such pics in my packs, it's because I overlooked them. I found a couple of such pics while tagging Alice and deleted them, the same I'll do with others during tagging.

- Long dress
It's either summer, formal or fashionable to me. It's like having a "red dress" tag, anything can be long or red.

- Uniform
Too general concept to me. It will be hard to use in code. Either remove or give a much more accurate determination.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 10:58:04 AM
- No bg
What's the difference between no bg and quest then? I don't see it.

- Wildness.
We have meadow, park, forest. They all have plants, and they could be considered as nature too.
What I mean is a tag for some place without plants, and not totally urban. Rocks, caves, etc.

- Deflowered
If there are such pics in my packs, it's because I overlooked them. I found a couple of such pics while tagging Alice and deleted them, the same I'll do with others during tagging.

- Long dress
It's either summer, formal or fashionable to me. It's like having a "red dress" tag, anything can be long or red.

- Uniform
Too general concept to me. It will be hard to use in code. Either remove or give a much more accurate determination.

- no bg (I want more no bg pics even if I have to remove the backgrounds myself (when enough code is ready to make a game).

- wilderness (+ to add)

- deflowered (+ to remove)

- long dress (+ to remove)

- uniform (+ to remove)

Lets wait for a work from CW and update tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 11:21:10 AM
You mentioned that the game is able to remove simple backgrounds by itself. Maybe you should test it and find out how exactly simple those bg should be. It could solve this problem.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 01:19:23 PM
You mentioned that the game is able to remove simple backgrounds by itself. Maybe you should test it and find out how exactly simple those bg should be. It could solve this problem.

I said maybe, turned out it was an insane idea.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 01:43:12 PM
Too bad.
Why do you want many bg-less pics all of a sudden? What are you going to do with them?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 01:59:19 PM
Too bad.
Why do you want many bg-less pics all of a sudden? What are you going to do with them?

We'll add buildings in the future, basic types of rooms maybe, I've seen some games display bgless images on top of room background and it look good.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 11, 2013, 02:51:54 PM
I'll try to look for software that able to remove simple bg automatically. Maybe there is such a thing.

Still don't see any difference between quest main tag and no bg subtag. I believe we should keep only one of those tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 03:09:03 PM
I'll try to look for software that able to remove simple bg automatically. Maybe there is such a thing.

Still don't see any difference between quest main tag and no bg subtag. I believe we should keep only one of those tags.

Scripts for photoshop might be a good bet.

I've updated DB with the Arena post battle screen and removed the pre-battle checks for dogfights. Test it when you can, I want to know if animations cause any trouble. You'll have to turn the dogfights screen off manually to fight (disabled method was responsible for that).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 11, 2013, 04:46:14 PM

Still don't see any difference between quest main tag and no bg subtag. I believe we should keep only one of those tags.

quest = a set of images that can change from one to another (in attempt to create something similar to visual novel characters)
no bg = standalone bg-less image


At least that was my earlier idea. So there is a little difference, but if it could be useful for something, that's another question...



Lets wait for a work from CW and update tags.


I will not tag more girls then these two for a while

-----------------

We really need to make clear what formal dress is, because there are two options:


1) something to wear on formal social events like a ball, opera, audiences... an "evening dress"
2) formal clothes that a politician, manager, representative or teacher would wear for work

So we should combine either:

formal+long dress (lolita and yukata could fit in too if we really need to reduce outfits) for first type
or
formal+secretary (uniform could fit in too) for the second

and leave the other tag in, because if we remove both at once and leave just formal in it could be confusing a bit

-------
change:
- gym uniform to sportswear (yup, it's a better name)

remove:
- santa (there are pics with this costume sometimes, but I don't really care about it)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 11, 2013, 05:14:32 PM
I will not tag more girls then these two for a while

change:
- gym uniform to sportswear (yup, it's a better name)

remove:
- santa (there are pics with this costume sometimes, but I don't really care about it)

**Typo
I meant "word" not "work".

If noone will come up with anything else by tomorrow, I'll adjust the tags (or Dark can just do it in his soft and post it here).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 11, 2013, 06:11:53 PM
Ok

Then my word is, that I pretty much agree with all your responses to DarkTls list.


---------
Add:
- ripped clothes (just a reminder)

Remove:

- yukata (=formal, for simplicity sake)


Not sure about removing (as they have no clear alternative to merge with):

- plugsuit (it is a quite distinctive outfit, but I have no idea where it could be useful)
- uniform (also no clue about events for it, but this is at least much more common.)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 12, 2013, 06:09:22 AM
I imagine plugsuit will be useful for evangelion mostly  :)

Don't forget about mood, we need mood2 panel only.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2013, 06:23:17 AM
I imagine plugsuit will be useful for evangelion mostly  :)

Don't forget about mood, we need mood2 panel only.

Feel free to remove/add stuff yourself, you've prolly figures json files by now. If you don't want to, I'll do it myself.

Does anyone like jigsaw puzzles? I want to add one to our new gallery? And how did the Arena post combat screen test????
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 12, 2013, 07:31:48 AM
You do remember which resolution I have at work, right?  :)
I don't care about puzzles, but if it won't require too much time to code, why not.
And I'm still downloading last version. For some reason db gives me only 50kB/sec today.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2013, 08:02:58 AM
You do remember which resolution I have at work, right?  :)
I don't care about puzzles, but if it won't require too much time to code, why not.
And I'm still downloading last version. For some reason db gives me only 50kB/sec today.

You don't have to make it for your resolution. About 300 lines of code but it's borrowed and only needs to be adjusted to pytfall. It's kinda fun... maybe we can award experience for it or something, I'll upload it to DB soon.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 12, 2013, 08:10:26 AM
We cannot leave mood2 at the far right. And when I put it to mood 1 place, it's clearly not suitable for widescreen resolutions.

Lol, 4 hours left for db. I guess it will finish downloading towards evening.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 12, 2013, 11:31:05 AM
We cannot leave mood2 at the far right. And when I put it to mood 1 place, it's clearly not suitable for widescreen resolutions.

Lol, 4 hours left for db. I guess it will finish downloading towards evening.

Oki,

I think jigsaw puzzle is more or less ready :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 24, 2013, 12:51:59 PM
Do we need +undress and -undress tags? We already have tags like exposed and nude, so I'm not sure if we need that kind of details.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: rudistoned on October 24, 2013, 04:25:55 PM
Those two tags are conceptually broken, so they should be replaced IMHO.




Simple option: undress
Means the main character of the image undresses, is undressed by someone else or undresses someone else




Detailed option: Three tags that distinguish the above meanings
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 25, 2013, 07:23:38 AM
Here (https://mega.co.nz/#!fpYk3KSJ!RwFKOk-SwgllGUrgv11aMHVd7ohBdINKIhmAzKSIs8M) is the new version.

In addition to changes that we talked about solo is mast now in main tags. I've removed mast subtag (=main mast tag), pov (=partner hidden), added undress subtag in "other" and ripped in style instead of pony (let's avoid pony mania in the project).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on October 25, 2013, 08:12:58 AM
Great! I agree with your changes.

I only find it strange to have one dildo/strapon tag in sex to mc, but three in performed by mc.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 25, 2013, 08:56:14 AM
Indeed. Here (https://mega.co.nz/#!38YwQRwY!CswxzhV1JpY2bBHh-F8F9T9goBVSGTeFaWbnYpsp4Io) is the version with all tags.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 25, 2013, 09:41:53 AM
Damn, forgot to remove empty room. Here (https://mega.co.nz/#!X1ZWwRhZ!eR1RAF-v7qWxhHg0dgDiDyH0Wo1lGXt6zJiibzKQaDk).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on October 25, 2013, 12:21:43 PM
Rudi has released Tagger with tabs (0.3)...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on October 26, 2013, 06:24:04 AM
Tabs version here (https://mega.co.nz/#!HoACgIKD!L4iWK3myfXTq90-u2M3ihlIVkCw09TyNkahZfq8E6bk). Let me know if we need more tabs  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 10, 2014, 08:51:23 AM
I'll continue here...



I'll don't have access to code right now, but it should be possible. Even if it isn't, I'll code an option to exclude tags. There are bound to be issues with tags system, it's a new design that I've never worked with but group and bdsm pics should never appear in normal sex category unless those were misstagged (bdsm/group/sex are all main tags from the same category). If you or Dark tagged bdsm or group tag with sex even if characters in the pic are having sex, it was an error.
   
I used sex,anal and blowjob tags for group and bdsm pics. Because I just don't see a way how to properly tag them otherwise with current set of tags.
In a double penetration pics, tags would be: group, sex, anal, on top, doggy, two guys
Without using these, in this case, you can imagine the same thing: group, on top, doggy, two guys
But if a guy on bottom is having a blowjob instead: group, anal, blowjob, doggy, two guys
Without these tags it would be just: group, doggy, two guys - and you just can't know from position alone if it's a normal or anal sex and have no idea what the second customer is doing (waiting in a line perhaps?)
same for bdsm pics.
So it just seemed to me that it could work if we exclude group and bdsm tags from standard whore job.


 
We'll get it right after a couple of versions... Dark was right for example, one girl/one guy (of whatever) tags should have been used for any extra guy/girl except the MC. His approach would have been easier to work with, but I'll try to correct all of that stuff with code.
 
Huh? That's not the way we are doing it? I tagged every sex pics with one guy, except maybe for some guy-less creampie pics. It seemed kind of natural when I was doing it... my bad...
-----------
I figured that the profile tag is for pics that appears in profile screen, so all those nude, maid, sportswear, swimsuit, date and whatever pics that I don't want to show there will be without main tag. Is that right? (To be honest, I don't really get this main tag thing at all)


And there's a lot more I'm confused about...
(just wondering, I gladly correct my tags, I have only 3k pics done so far, which is much less then DarkTl anyway)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 10, 2014, 09:51:15 AM
If you or Dark tagged bdsm or group tag with sex even if characters in the pic are having sex, it was an error.
How are we supposed to tell then what is going on at bdsm pics? There are pics with tied characters, pics with tied characters having sex, pics with tied characters having group or lesbian sex, etc.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 10:33:38 AM
How are we supposed to tell then what is going on at bdsm pics? There are pics with tied characters, pics with tied characters having sex, pics with tied characters having group or lesbian sex, etc.

I never thought about it that way. In this case, we should have had two tags: "normalsex" for WM type "sex" main category and "sex" as a descriptor for group or bdsm main categories. In any case, bdsm will be added post Alpha so we don't have to think about that now. I borrowed a laptop so I could get some extra development time, I am downloading my DB content now so I'll have access to tagger and PyTFall SDK in 3 hours (I have more than 14 GB in my DB PyTFall folder that's not shared so it'll take a while), I thought Rudi coded in an option to exclude specific tags on show already but I've never used it :(

Anyways: That's why this is called pre-alpha development and prototyping :)


Huh? That's not the way we are doing it? I tagged every sex pics with one guy, except maybe for some guy-less creampie pics. It seemed kind of natural when I was doing it... my bad...

Don't... it doesn't matter at all for the Alpha and I expect that we'll have to retag the packs for the beta...

I figured that the profile tag is for pics that appears in profile screen, so all those nude, maid, sportswear, swimsuit, date and whatever pics that I don't want to show there will be without main tag. Is that right? (To be honest, I don't really get this main tag thing at all)


And there's a lot more I'm confused about...
(just wondering, I gladly correct my tags, I have only 3k pics done so far, which is much less then DarkTl anyway)


I am confused about some of the tags as well... We'll figure it out as we go.

As for the main type of tags, it's like in WM, imagine you can only use one tag for whore job, "sex" for example. There is your main category... Rest of tags should serve as descriptors so we can match pics to texts better and maybe even include some logic (like tracking what positions girl may prefer) in the future. It gets more confusing when tags like "handjob" or "footjob" fall into "blowjob" main category, but that's how it is... maybe we should rethink that.

But when "sex" tag that is supposed to be main, is used as a descriptor, it breaks my own approach to the tagging system...

"profile" tag in WM includes everything you've mentioned... but I haven't determined how we should use it yet. I think that Dark, coming from WM background might have tagged all of those as "profile". I prolly would as well. But your approach will not mess up anything, so it's not wrong either.

In many of these cases, I simply need to adapt more and more of the game to the new tagging system and after a bit of playing, we'll see what will work best.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 10, 2014, 01:04:17 PM
Ok...
So I remove other main tags from pics that already have one (group and bdsm pics), unless they could be used for both.
And add blowjob tag for every hand,foot and titsjob.


Do we want a cumshot pics in blowjob category too? (I came across a few and tagged them as one guy+bukkake)


----
And what we will do with the service job? It doesn't have a main category yet.
We have tags for waitressing and cleaning (and maybe cooking) actions but these pics are rare.
And a more common pics with maid and bunny costumes, usually with cute looks, but not really doing something.
----
"profile" tag in WM includes everything you've mentioned... but I haven't determined how we should use it yet. I think that Dark, coming from WM background might have tagged all of those as "profile". I prolly would as well. But your approach will not mess up anything, so it's not wrong either.

My concern is, that I would like to show girl's typical outfit in profile menus, not maid/lolita/swimsuit/cosplay/nude pics, these I would like to use only in places where they belong (service job, beach, beauty class...).
And also not every profile image is good for walk in the city, even if it have the same location. For example, I don't want to use Asuka (NGE) in her plugsuit in the city, I would rather have only her schoolgirl, casual and summer pics there.
And we can't really predict these. Sakuya's (Touhou) Maid costume is so significant for her, that I would consider every of her other outfits, even casual T-shirt, to be a special beauty case  :) .
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 10, 2014, 01:08:18 PM
That's beginning to get way too complicated even for us, not to mention other pack makers in the future. We'll have to rework tagging system, at least post Alpha for sure. Two types of "sex" are an overkill without a doubt.
I'll do in on Monday at work, unless someone wants to do it right now :)

We probably don't need most of main categories. They are convenient for us, but they confuse others and don't help the game. For example, we have dress, room and mood tags, so profile tag is not necessary.
While ent main category basically means a leisure of some kind, typically at beach or in bikini.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 10, 2014, 01:12:21 PM
We have tags for waitressing and cleaning (and maybe cooking) actions but these pics are rare.
And a more common pics with maid and bunny costumes, usually with cute looks, but not really doing something.
I believe it should work this way: you need a cleaning picture for cleaning job, and if a girl doesn't have a cleaning picture, you will use maid picture; if there is no maid picture, then any indoor picture. Something like that.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 10, 2014, 01:38:27 PM
I believe it should work this way: you need a cleaning picture for cleaning job, and if a girl doesn't have a cleaning picture, you will use maid picture; if there is no maid picture, then any indoor picture. Something like that.
That's the way to select the most accurate picture - great for events, but I'm not sure about normal next day jobs. Because if a girl have 10 maid pics, but only one is cleaning one, you'll never see the other nine.
On the other hand, main tag approach would select a maid picture at random, show it, and then if it find a cleaning tag, write some additional text about cleaning. (that's the way sex is codded now if I understand it correctly). Good thing is, that you'll see all pics over time, bad is that the best picture will be shown only 1/10 of the time, same like the others those are not as good.
So I believe the best would be a combination of these two, something that would show the correct one most of the time, but sometimes also the other ones.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 10, 2014, 02:11:00 PM
Something different:
Don't you guys think it would be better to use portraits or specially tagged images in select girl menu instead of common profile pics?

Profile pics are interesting, but they are changing a lot so it's a little confusing to look for a girl based on her looks and they're too small to actually see something.
Portraits should be much easier to navigate, but also a little boring...
...but if we tag a selection of pics, one for each of happy/sad/indifferent moods and change those accordingly, the screen could look much more interesting.
And even more if we could manage to add small icons representing important statuses next to the texts, that would increase it's usefulness a lot.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 02:20:48 PM
300 files left to download to DB out of 16k... Ren'Py better run on this laptop :)

Rudi's approach for example is to launch the event regardless if there is a pic for it available, than assign "weight" to every tag on scale from 0 to 100 and than a pic with the highest weight is shown. Game tracks pics that were displayed recently so one pic is not shown over and over again. This seems like VERY complicated and dangerous approach to me...

What I do right now in next day job events in PyTFall is to get a list of all events that have texts coded into the game and randomly choose one. This might have limitations as well. Also we need to decide if we want to use some generic pics as a fallback OR create a different fallback system (right now if non of the tags is found, profile is used).

I DO NOT ADVICE TO REDO ANY OF THE PACKS AT THE MOMENT. Lets add some more code and see what's what. I usually get things right by trial and error...

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 02:26:59 PM
Something different:
Don't you guys think it would be better to use portraits or specially tagged images in select girl menu instead of common profile pics?

Profile pics are interesting, but they are changing a lot so it's a little confusing to look for a girl based on her looks and they're too small to actually see something.
Portraits should be much easier to navigate, but also a little boring...
...but if we tag a selection of pics, one for each of happy/sad/indifferent moods and change those accordingly, the screen could look much more interesting.
And even more if we could manage to add small icons representing important statuses next to the texts, that would increase it's usefulness a lot.

Per game element tagging might also work, but would require a lot of effort. Might be simpler to use "profile" + "mood". Portraits will be weird because most girls have only one or two of those and you'll get a lot of same random girl portrait pics as in arena.

BTW: Do we have Hinata, Sakura and TenTen tagged somewhere? I still only have the old filename based version? 220 files left...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 10, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
Per game element tagging might also work, but would require a lot of effort. Might be simpler to use "profile" + "mood". Portraits will be weird because most girls have only one or two of those and you'll get a lot of same random girl portrait pics as in arena.
I was thinking about creating a new tag (like "selection") and add it to some profile pics that displays girls from waits up (these looks best here in my option), one for each important mood.
But I completely forget about the Rgirls...


I like how it was done for the Rgirl in one WM versions - where the game selected one profile pics for the Rgirl on her creation and that one stayed with her forever without changing. Maybe that could work here too?



BTW: Do we have Hinata, Sakura and TenTen tagged somewhere? I still only have the old filename based version? 220 files left...
No, I don't have them updated yet. I'm tagging Haruhi now, but I can switch to these three. But I'm in the middle of school exams now, so I can't tell when it will be done...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 03:19:45 PM
There is no hurry. We'll see, maybe per game element tags will be the way to go and we'll add tags like "selection". 3 files left... I almost have access to the code again :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 11, 2014, 01:14:04 AM
Because if a girl have 10 maid pics, but only one is cleaning one, you'll never see the other nine.
That's because we most likely don't have any events that require pure maid pics yet. We just need to add such events in the future.
Maid pics also could be used for waitress job, btw.

I DO NOT ADVICE TO REDO ANY OF THE PACKS AT THE MOMENT. Lets add some more code and see what's what. I usually get things right by trial and error...
Yup, retagging will be post alpha. And I don't tag packs I'm currently working on.
Not to mention that we need an option to quickly delete unused tags for a start.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 11, 2014, 05:33:48 AM
I've had a sleep on it... so some thoughts on the tagging system:

Explanation first, so we're all on the same page:

Rudi's database works like this: Tag: ["pic1", "pic2, ..."]. It has a bunch of methods to access the data. Tags and pics are loaded in the game once on start.

Right now during jobs we do this:

When a job runs:
1) Check if girl has an image: "sex", "missionary" available. Is yes, "sex_missionary" event is added to a list.

2) After all events had been added, game randomly chooses one.

3) Corresponding text and pic are loaded into the NextDayList with all other info. When pic is loaded, data base is accessed twice. First to get all the images with "sex", "missionary" tags, than to get all tags with "excluded" tags (like "bdsm" and "group"). Then all pics in the first batch are being removed if they are also in the second.

This will not work (perfectly) either. Even if we exclude "bdsm" and "group" tags during 1) as well, it might still be flawed. Also database would have to be accessed four times to get one single event...

For now it seems to be working fast enough but I have not testing this with a lot of girls yet. One way to improve this approach is to do 1) once on the startup, but it's a code thing, I doubt we'll run into a speed problem even with how things are now. In order to improve current approach, we would have to exclude a whole bunch of tags, and even THEN it might not work :(

===========================
Basically, I currently see two options here:

1) Rudi's approach of running the event anyway, assign "weight" to tags and have the game pic the best matched pic.

2) Approach that I've originally intended. All "Main" categories, actually, become "Main" and cannot be used as sub descriptors. If you need sex as a sub tag, lets call WM sex category "normalsex" or "whorejob_sex". Basically, just like in WM, you would only tag an image you would conceder as acceptable for appearing during sex act of the whore job. Descriptors like "location", "mood", "outfit", "position" would all be secondary. I think this will work really well and that is actually how I assumed you were tagging.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 11, 2014, 09:45:36 AM
Basically, our "main" catagories are just usual categories from wm. But since we already have much more tags than wm had, we have outgrown it.

While the second approach may be easier for coding, it requires a great deal of knowledge about the game from a pack maker. Even now many tags don't have a main category.
We also might need new tags for new jobs/events in the future that may or may not have a main category as well.

On the other hand, as Cherry mentioned in his example with Asuka and Sakuya, pack makers will have more control over packs with the first approach, with sorting pictures rather than describing them.

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 11, 2014, 10:50:45 AM

The advantage in main tags is, that if we make something like "service_job" tag, then, even if a girl doesn't have any obvious waitress or maid/bunny pics, a pack maker can select at least a few pictures that will not hurt the eyes as much as a fall to normal profile pic could (not a pic with character clad in armor and weapons...).
Or sort out outfits that we couldn't predict when making the events (let's say, let the girl doing service in china clothes, because it's still better then schoolgirl)


But that may be a lot of tags...
And there could be a problem if we decide to expand the game in the future with new stuff to do (for example a girl posing for a photo)


--------------------
Jobs are kind of understandable in terms of main tags, but what about other things:


We once talked about that it will be nice if we could add a beach location in the city, place a standard girlmeets here but let all the girl there appear only in her bikini, swimsuit or summer clothes.


I expect a lot of locations, dates or events could want to use tags like this and we surely can't have main tag for everything in game, like "beach date main tag".
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 11, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
Basically, our "main" catagories are just usual categories from wm. But since we already have much more tags than wm had, we have outgrown it.

While the second approach may be easier for coding, it requires a great deal of knowledge about the game from a pack maker. Even now many tags don't have a main category.
We also might need new tags for new jobs/events in the future that may or may not have a main category as well.

On the other hand, as Cherry mentioned in his example with Asuka and Sakuya, pack makers will have more control over packs with the first approach, with sorting pictures rather than describing them.

Well, I am HEAVILY in favor of "main" pinpoint tags. To call any image without whose seems to me like a coding nightmare that I couldn't enjoy (and I usually enjoy coding for PyTFall, except for when I get stuck on the one design for weeks/month).

Try calling a profile pic without main categories. You'll basically have to exclude all sex tags (without main categories, there are couple of dozen of those), all professional tags, couple of locations probably as well. Same for sex pics, the amount of tags you'd have to exclude every time would be REALLY annoying.

At the same time with main categories, you just specify a category, that's it. Next you can check for additional parameters but you automatically know that you're on the right track...

It would prolly be a good idea to add a number of main categories we require in PyTFall and also some logical once (like inside/outside (in general) for example).


--------------------
Jobs are kind of understandable in terms of main tags, but what about other things:


We once talked about that it will be nice if we could add a beach location in the city, place a standard girlmeets here but let all the girl there appear only in her bikini, swimsuit or summer clothes.


I expect a lot of locations, dates or events could want to use tags like this.

Well, with main tags, such a pic would be tagged as: "profile", "bikini". Maybe beach as a location as well. Without main tags, you'd have to exclude sh!tloads of tags as you do not have a profile main category (or similar if you want to use profile exclusively for profile screen).

===
Small fix to SF was pushed...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 11, 2014, 01:50:47 PM
Ok. I agree that we should keep using main tags. So within the concept we already have, my suggestion is:


1) Adding a profile_screen (and maybe girl_list_screen) tag and let the game look for this tag in screens first and use profile tag if it didn't find one. (so it's not required)
Otherwise using Profile main tag in a way you and DarkTl used it until now (=I add it to all pics where I didn't have it, like nude pics)

=I'm hoping for something that will keep the Profile main tag usefulness for making events while giving an option to remove all those not-normal appearances from girl's profile. (and it will give an option to create a pic that will show in profile screen but not anywhere else)


2) Add these three blowjob, anal and vaginal sub tags for group and bdsm pics. Also number of participants ("one guy" tag) make sense for these two only. (maybe also for a dance pics)


And anything else we find out

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 11, 2014, 02:39:04 PM
Ok. I agree that we should keep using main tags. So within the concept we already have, my suggestion is:


1) Adding a profile_screen (and maybe girl_list_screen) tag and let the game look for this tag in screens first and use profile tag if it didn't find one. (so it's not required)
Otherwise using Profile main tag in a way you and DarkTl used it until now (=I add it to all pics where I didn't have it, like nude pics)

=I'm hoping for something that will keep the Profile main tag usefulness for making events while giving an option to remove all those not-normal appearances from girl's profile. (and it will give an option to create a pic that will show in profile screen but not anywhere else)


2) Add these three blowjob, anal and vaginal sub tags for group and bdsm pics. Also number of participants ("one guy" tag) make sense for these two only. (maybe also for a dance pics)


And anything else we find out

Yeap, I am in favor of this. Actually this does not really cancel the "weight" approach either, I am thinking about coding that in as well at some point.

Also I don't think profile should include Nude pics. I never built packs like that for WM, still, some people did and it wasn't to weird.

===============================
Right now I am still messing with our usual show method, I've added first tag as a main tag, if an image with all tags is not found, game will try to find: first + second tags, than first + third and so on. Only than fall back to the profile.

Otherwise... some thoughts on tagging system, using approach with main tags:

We can use profile for profile screen IF (and this will be VERY useful for coding and simple to tag):

We add highest level of tags:
sex pic (should include bdsm/restrained tags as well)
clean pic

For locations (also high level):
inside
outside
simple bg (could be used for both)

Rest, current tags are fine, we just need separate tags for sex/anal/bj on bdsm/group and those as an act during job.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2014, 02:13:12 AM
Yeah, more main tags (or rather at least one main tag for any type of picture) will help.

Also, even with separate tags for sex/anal/bj on bdsm/group there are pictures that may be used for different main categories. For example, strip and mast for something like that (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1389474000/097af97b0c7fbf832412de2e0bf04296.jpg) (not the best example, but a quick one). Or rest and strip for a lying, half-naked girl, etc.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2014, 03:22:08 AM
Well, since blowjob main cat would likely include handjob, footjob and etc. it can also be tagged with blowjob subtag for example.

I believe this will work and will not be to hard to explain.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2014, 11:56:40 AM
Also, if we'll use that approach when you tag everyone except the MC, we might not need group main tag at all. Just sex with "two guys" or "more guys" instead.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2014, 12:03:23 PM
Also, if we'll use that approach when you tag everyone except the MC, we might not need group main tag at all. Just sex with "two guys" or "more guys" instead.

Yes we will... it's a coding thing, I'd have to write another type otherwise and it's easier to work with.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2014, 12:07:44 PM
Are you sure then about tagging everyone on pictures except the MC? I mean, absolutely sure, not just kinda sure, like it was the last time I asked?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2014, 01:18:30 PM
Are you sure then about tagging everyone on pictures except the MC? I mean, absolutely sure, not just kinda sure, like it was the last time I asked?

I've solved all current issues by extending girls show method.

However:

Under how we've been tagging now, there is almost no way to differentiate between group or bdsm pic with either: MC + Female, MC + Male, MC + Male + Female. It would have to be done by a very confusing and somewhat flawed way: MC + Female = "bdsm" + "les", MC + Male = "bdsm" + exclude sh!tloads of tags, MC + Male + Female = "bdsm" + well... maybe "group" subtag and STILL exclude sh!tloads of tags.

I think that "one guy" and "one girl" as any other girl and guy except the MC, makes more sense. In fact even adding "solo" tag to the same cattegory will save as from calling: "bdsm" + exclude 6 tags (6 - 12 times accessing the database)... BUT since I will not work with "bdsm" and "group" until after the Alpha, I can only be almost absolutely sure :( Your logic with how an image might be called is as good as my own.

PS: Once again, I seem to have solved all issues with code for the Alpha, pics are being displayed VERY well currently and with CW's testing, we constantly improve upon it...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 12, 2014, 05:04:23 PM
Is accessing database really such bad thing (=noticeably slowing the game)? I know that we are not Google search, but still, I wouldn't expect 12 conditions for a database to be a problem in this time and age...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2014, 05:12:09 PM
Is accessing database really such bad thing (=noticeably slowing the game)? I know that we are not Google search, but still, I wouldn't expect 12 conditions for a database to be a problem in this time and age...

Doesn't look like it's slowing us down... still we wont know until we test it with lots of characters. Still, if it can be easily avoided?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 12, 2014, 05:44:03 PM
Btw. even with "one girl" tag, you still can't easily get a MC+female bdsm pic, because if you request a Bdsm+one girl, you can get Bdsm+one girl+one guy/two guys/more guys Bdsm group pic.  But it is an improvement. 
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2014, 06:03:22 PM
Btw. even with "one girl" tag, you still can't easily get a MC+female bdsm pic, because if you request a Bdsm+one girl, you can get Bdsm+one girl+one guy/two guys/more guys Bdsm group pic. But it is an improvement.

Good point... Still, it's easier to get mc + 1m + 1f...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 13, 2014, 01:01:42 AM
I see. Still, we probably don't need "one guy" and "one girl" tags for sex, anal and les categories.

What about ent main category? Do you use it, or going to use in the future?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 13, 2014, 02:01:03 AM
I see. Still, we probably don't need "one guy" and "one girl" tags for sex, anal and les categories.

Nope, seems kinda useless...

What about ent main category? Do you use it, or going to use in the future?

Not yet, I am not entirely sure what that category includes. Is it supposed to allow easier "ent", "beach" for a beach pic for example? Tags like "dancer, musician, cooking, etc." are kind of "main categories of their own". I hope noone will decide to tag sex pic with cooking, even if that might be correct at times... Even then, "sex pic"/"clean pic" main categories in the future will substitute even that.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 13, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
For now ent means activities of some kind (mostly at beach, but not limited to), leisure (sewing or creation of dolls, even puppet-show for characters like Alice Margatroid), playing games (including video games), relaxing in onsen, etc.
Basically, it's like rest, but much more active.

Oh, that remindes me, while I have yet to see a picture for meditation tag, there are a lot of pics with sleeping characters. I guess we could use sleeping tag.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 13, 2014, 03:43:11 AM
would it be possible to automaticaly create some of the derived tags? Like for example let the game tag all bdsm pics without one guy,one girl,two guys etc. with bdsm_solo, all sex without group and bdsm as whorejob_sex...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 13, 2014, 05:16:33 AM
I am not sure how to use ent... we can go without it I suppose.

Sleeping tag would definitely not hurt... maybe playing as well, but we will likely need more tags for slave training post alpha anyway.

@CW:

Not sure, what if someone tags lesbian pic as whorejob_sex? It is possible without a question, might even be easy, but it once again might confuse modders.

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on January 13, 2014, 06:16:50 AM
I was thinking about it in this way:
 We want a Group main tag for easier coding and fever acces to database. But that tag is not needed for describing a picture, if we use a more precise number of participants (two guys...) because its obvious that anything more than one is a group. So if its possible to let the game create that tag after loading jsons, then it could be removed from tagger, but still used in code as main tag.
 
 just a trail of thoughts I get while trying to sleep
 
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on January 13, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
Maybe... bdsm can have two guys tag as well. Also someone could tag dancing pic in the same manner. It's worth giving a thought, it might work.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: mcmanus82 on March 29, 2014, 11:48:16 AM
Hi

I'm working on image tagger specifically for PytFall, it is in nearly finished state as it can load from tags.json but not save yet.

I have attached a screenshot of it(hopefully) and in the textbox on the lower right, you can see tags that were not added by me yet, as they were not in the char packs prior to alpha or i missed them  :-[

So.. the question would be how final are the tags in the released alpha's girl packs? Are there any not used leftovers?
A complete list would not hurt, but i doubt that exists yet.

Also, im planing a tags stat window for the current folder, what would be useful is a list of possible or needed combinations, so i can check against those and point out what images are not covered by the pack.

I will be out for the rest of today, so.. yeah going to check up on this tomorrow.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on March 29, 2014, 12:25:55 PM
List of used tags is planned to change after alpha. In our current tagger software, there are some tags that we don't want anymore, and also some that are missing. And Xela want to add some slave training, and that will surely need new tags too. It's all open for debate now.


So while we have some packs tagged for testing them in the game, it's generally not a good idea to start making new ones for alpha now, as these will surely have to be rettaged in the future.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on March 29, 2014, 12:39:03 PM
Hi

Hi and welcome :)

So.. the question would be how final are the tags in the released alpha's girl packs? Are there any not used leftovers?
A complete list would not hurt, but i doubt that exists yet.

They are not even close to final I fear, we'll be either revising the system completely or at the very least adding new tags as we enable more and more game modules.

You can find the current taglist list in our own tagger:

link (https://mega.co.nz/#!Glx1AC5A!GgLVP65QOiowHBbOE5Wf_c6_qoF2_6eThiM9lu39ZSw)

Also, im planing a tags stat window for the current folder, what would be useful is a list of possible or needed combinations, so i can check against those and point out what images are not covered by the pack.

Super useful! Would it be very difficult to create some form of a replacement mechanism per tag for all images?

I will be out for the rest of today, so.. yeah going to check up on this tomorrow.

Oki, our own tagger cannot be developed any further as it was created by Rudi who disappeared some time ago. It lacks features like stats, substitute tag with other tags and so on. It's code is in open text but there doesn't seem to be a way to rip the Qt interface :( So we cannot add anything to it other than modding it with new tags which can be done with xml/json.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on March 29, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Yup, new tagger is very welcomed. Aside from rethinking what tags to use, this is what we are missing the most:
(from out latest discussion about it, page 146 on general discussion thread)

It lacks some basic yet extremely useful functions.
* "jump to N" option or something like that for pictures, very useful for large packs, right now it only has previous and next buttons;
* an option to delete the currently displayed picture; right now to delete any picture you have to close the tagger and delete it manually, otherwise there will be problems;
* an option to delete any unknown tags, will be very useful to delete others' tags and those tags that we don't use anymore.While the tagger can be used even now, it's far from being ready.
All functions from rudi's tagger, except that "guess tags from images names" thing, are welcomed. Including easy modifying tags menus.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on March 29, 2014, 01:20:36 PM
I'm working on image tagger specifically for PytFall, it is in nearly finished state as it can load from tags.json but not save yet.
I'd say it has more user-friendly interface then our current tagger, I like that list of pictures on the left (it solves the problem with previous/next buttons from Rudi's tagger). Any help with new tagger will be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: mcmanus82 on March 31, 2014, 09:40:30 AM
You can find the current taglist list in our own tagger:
I have checked it and i'm about half done with merging tags and grouping from it.

Super useful! Would it be very difficult to create some form of a replacement mechanism per tag for all images?
When i was thinking about the Stats window and how to make it, i came up with a query like approach. This is all just an idea yet, nothing is coded.

It would look something like this, listbox or checkedListBox to select main tag, operation type(has tag, missing tag...), multiple CheckedListBoxes separated by and/or logical operators containing actual tags by grouping.
This would be a single query line and you could add multiple lines.

This could be applied to replacing concept too, in the same manner.
But lets get back to this once tags are up to date and saving is implemented :)

* "jump to N" option or something like that for pictures, very useful for large packs, right now it only has previous and next buttons;
I would think the listbox on the left should be sufficient, im planning next and prev buttons with hotkeys.
I also came up with the idea that, if you double click a panel or its label, all checkboxes in that panel are cleared. good/bad? (its already done :) )

* an option to delete the currently displayed picture; right now to delete any picture you have to close the tagger and delete it manually, otherwise there will be problems;
Very doable, however it will most likely have to reload the folder, but it will do it automatically.

* an option to delete any unknown tags, will be very useful to delete others' tags and those tags that we don't use anymore.
With the current approach the code has it will do remove them by default when you save. The save method is not a modify, it is a delete old file -> create new(tags.json)
So yeah, if this is a problem let me know. There will be some kind of notification if unknown tags were found when loading a folder.

All functions from rudi's tagger, except that "guess tags from images names" thing, are welcomed. Including easy modifying tags menus.
Guess tags is not planned at all, dynamic tag adding by users is not planned for first working release, however i will most likely add a CheckedListBox to the UI, that will load custom tags from a file and will use them as the other checkboxes.

----

Other stuff:
ProfileSad ProfileAngry tags are obsolete?
I could not find the REST - COMBAT - DANCE(not dancer) tags in the old tagger, however it is extensively used in packs. dead?
Lolita tag refers to clothing/behavior and not physical build?


Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on March 31, 2014, 09:59:14 AM
Other stuff:
ProfileSad ProfileAngry tags are obsolete?
I could not find the REST - COMBAT - DANCE(not dancer) tags in the old tagger, however it is extensively used in packs. dead?
Lolita tag refers to clothing/behavior and not physical build?

- Yeap.
- I think those were renamed.
- I think so.

===
Might be best to wait for Dark/CW to answer these questions as well. I am not very familiar with the tagging system and that is already becoming a problem. After I am done with fixing all bugs and doing a code review (getting rid of poorly designed outdated code and trying to move as much of the logic as possible to Python modules/buildins that are executed in C instead of Python), I need to tag at least one girl or pack myself to figure out the system better.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on March 31, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
Guess tags is not planned at all, dynamic tag adding by users is not planned for first working release, however i will most likely add a CheckedListBox to the UI, that will load custom tags from a file and will use them as the other checkboxes.
Well, there will be some changes in the future (for example, we already could use sleep tag). You probably don't have enough time to make a new version every time we add something new, so custom traits will be useful.

Or you can give us the source code and explain in general terms how to add/remove traits to your tagger  :)
ProfileSad ProfileAngry tags are obsolete?
We use combinations like profile + sad or profile + angry now.

I could not find the REST - COMBAT - DANCE(not dancer) tags in the old tagger, however it is extensively used in packs. dead?
We do have the rest tag in the old tagger, in main tags iirc, and we use it. We use battle instead of combat now, and dancer instead of dance.

The last two tags are consequences of "guess tags from images names" option that I forgot to shut down, we never used them. Basically, when the image name was combat (1).jpg, it "guessed" to add combat tag.

Lolita tag refers to clothing/behavior and not physical build?
For physical build and behavior we use traits. Thus, it refers to clothing only.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on March 31, 2014, 05:35:22 PM
 It's a little early, but even without new content, this is my option what we could change in tags:


Add:
- nap (or sleep)
- bath
to be used with rest, ent could stay as subtag for rest too


- apron
- santa
to styles, because they're not that rare


- gym storage (one of the more popular sex locations)
- sportground (we have a sport, exercise, sportswear but no playground)


And some expressions are not that clear
- surprised vs uncertain
- "in love" (blushing and sparkling eyes) vs provocative (sexually)
- scared vs in pain
(but maybe it's too much)

 Remove:
-meditating
-healing
-drunk
-autumn
-studying
-eat pussy
-do eat pussy


Do something with the "active" tag, because it's the most annoying one right now.


Decide if we want to specify group sex pics more.


use "simple bg" for all graphic background (but that would be annoying to set) and/or use some "other" location tag for all these not applicable locations like spaceships... (so they could be excluded if needed)
Because in current system, tagless images can squeeze themselves almost everywhere and make a mess

Also, establish a more clear usage for battle and fighting/magic tags, or rename them for that purpose
- For guard job (also for arena gms) best would be pics with girls in some intimidating pose.
- when brawling happens, or in arena, it should use a more action pic, girl charging into attack, hurting fireballs...
- pics of girl fighting vs someone. We could use these in combat class now and automated exploration job in the future.
(in regards of this it may be woth note that:
"magic" tag without "battle" tag means non-combat magic
"weapon" tag could be used in more places, for example with "strip" for new text variant)


add something like "girlsmeet" tag to clearly state what pics are good for use in the city. It's now really awkward to set that.
this is a beach atm:
Code: [Select]
for_gm_selection = ["sex", "anal", "les", "blowjob", "bdsm", "group", "mast", "strip", "nude", "ripped", "battle", "cosplay", "cooking", "waitress", "musician", "singer", "studying", "hurt", "pajamas", "lingerie", "scared", "angry"]
all_indoor_tags = ["generic indoor", "arena", "bar", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "living room", "library", "shop", "stage"]
Code: [Select]
img=entry.show("bikini", "beach", "swimsuit", "summer", exclude=for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"], type="any"and that is one of the better locations
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on March 31, 2014, 05:40:32 PM
No kidding about the purpose signs (girlsmeets, slave-training, interactions etc.). Database needs to be accessed with every exclusion...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: mcmanus82 on March 31, 2014, 06:31:17 PM
Done with about 90% of tags in old tagger.. getting late :)

Made the code ready for dynamically adding tags(was 2 hours...), but did not get to the part to actually do the implementing.

Did not find these in old one, are they defunct or planned?
Biceps, abs, shoulders, muscle, legs

I like the idea to have more precise and/or descriptive tags, i had trouble figuring out some myself, so if anyone wishes to clerify the most complex ones, i will add them as tooltips. So that new taggers/pack makers can make sense of it more easily.

Well, there will be some changes in the future (for example, we already could use sleep tag). You probably don't have enough time to make a new version every time we add something new, so custom traits will be useful.

With the current system its about 5 minutes adding 5 new tags manually, add checkboxes, link event, append tag strings to DB. No editing var lengths or other such stuff is needed.

Or you can give us the source code and explain in general terms how to add/remove traits to your tagger  :)

Will happen :)

We do have the rest tag in the old tagger, in main tags iirc, and we use it. We use battle instead of combat now, and dancer instead of dance.

Missed that one, combat/dance removed.

For physical build and behavior we use traits. Thus, it refers to clothing only.

Moved to clothing styles.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 01, 2014, 12:54:00 AM
to be used with rest, ent could stay as subtag for rest too
For what purpose? I mean, what kind of images should use it?

- surprised vs uncertain
- "in love" (blushing and sparkling eyes) vs provocative (sexually)
Uncertain cannot be fully replaced by surprised. There are a lot of sex images with precisely uncertain expression (like she is not sure if she enjoys it or not), and not surprised (reminds me that joke "there is no rape, there is surprise sex"  ::) ).
Blushing and sparkling eyes = shy + happy or something?

Remove:
-meditating
-healing
-drunk
-autumn
-studying
You probably right, those tags are super rare...

-eat pussy
-do eat pussy
...but these ones are not.

Do something with the "active" tag, because it's the most annoying one right now.
Yup. It is also the most subjective tag.

add something like "girlsmeet" tag to clearly state what pics are good for use in the city.
We already have date tag for this purpose, if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 01, 2014, 12:59:13 AM
Did not find these in old one, are they defunct or planned?
Biceps, abs, shoulders, muscle, legs
Rudi's tagger was originally designed for his own game, that game uses these tags. We don't.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 02, 2014, 03:52:23 PM
Uncertain cannot be fully replaced by surprised. There are a lot of sex images with precisely uncertain expression (like she is not sure if she enjoys it or not), and not surprised (reminds me that joke "there is no rape, there is surprise sex"  ).Blushing and sparkling eyes = shy + happy or something?
I didn't mean to replace anything
Quote
...but these ones are not.
I'm sure I've never used that one and I never will - because there is "lick pussy" tag for the same thing.
Quote
We already have date tag for this purpose, if I'm not mistaken.
I was using it special dresses or just "more cute than normal" pics - when a girl is making herself pretty but still casual for a date with you. It was used in date example (at the very end), but that's gone now so that tag is not in use atm.
 Dunno what to do with it.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: mcmanus82 on April 03, 2014, 03:08:38 AM
I have a release worthy build of the new ImageTagger, i would like to make a new topic for it to keep it organized, would it be fine in here, the "Game design" thread?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 03, 2014, 04:30:02 AM
I'm sure I've never used that one and I never will - because there is "lick pussy" tag for the same thing.
Yup, I guess you right.
 
I was using it special dresses or just "more cute than normal" pics - when a girl is making herself pretty but still casual for a date with you. It was used in date example (at the very end), but that's gone now so that tag is not in use atm.
Iirc, profile+date = pictures for girlsmeets with the current code.
 
I have a release worthy build of the new ImageTagger, i would like to make a new topic for it to keep it organized, would it be fine in here, the "Game design" thread?
Sure.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 03, 2014, 08:39:25 AM
I have a release worthy build of the new ImageTagger, i would like to make a new topic for it to keep it organized, would it be fine in here, the "Game design" thread?
Is it possible to load and save tags to images, or is it using just .json files?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 03, 2014, 09:22:21 AM
^Nope. No one but Rudi knows how exactly that stuff works. And he didn't left any notes.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 03, 2014, 09:41:39 AM
^Nope. No one but Rudi knows how exactly that stuff works. And he didn't left any notes.

 I see... that's too bad. I really became accustomed to sorting and renaming images by tags and to be able to write them by hand in photoshop. That was a great time saver sometimes.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 03, 2014, 09:46:05 AM
You could try to suggest it to mcmanus82 in his thread. Maybe he will figure it out  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: mcmanus82 on April 03, 2014, 02:37:43 PM
Is it possible to load and save tags to images, or is it using just .json files?
Its just the json, nothing is changed in the images themselves.

I will look into it, but no promises. Editing image headers is quite outside of my comfort zone :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on April 03, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
I see... that's too bad. I really became accustomed to sorting and renaming images by tags and to be able to write them by hand in photoshop. That was a great time saver sometimes.

^Nope. No one but Rudi knows how exactly that stuff works. And he didn't left any notes.

As I've said before, our tagger logic is in human readable format and pretty well documented. Problem with our tagger is GUI.

Code that writes to XMP is long and complicated even in Python so unless Windows has a ready, easy to use set of instructions repeating Rudi's work in C# would be a pain in the @ss with a very limited benefit...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 04, 2014, 02:16:47 AM
I wonder if there is a way to quickly delete all metadata from pictures...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 04, 2014, 12:47:01 PM

Iirc, profile+date = pictures for girlsmeets with the current code.
"date" tag is not used anywhere in the game right now (but not excluded either), and I'm sure I never used both these tags on one picture in my packs. But I'm more than willing to change that, if we decide on it (both the code and images).


I do not agree with "Profile"+"Date", because problem is with locations that use outfits not best suited for profile screen:
"Profile" + "Date" + "bikini/swimsuit/beach" - "pool" for beach gms, would mean that we will have bikini pics in profile screen and it's not good to start excluding tags from that one (it's the most used screen and Xela don't want to slow the game with excluding tags  too much)



So I think it's best to use a separate Main tag for girlmeets. Now it depends if you think that pictures like this one:
(http://img24.eu/m-vjniebqd.jpg) (http://img24.eu/v-vjniebqd.jpg)
could use a special tag, to have the possibility to use them in some lovely private date scenario in the future, or not (move those pictures to beauty tag or delete them from packs as not useful).

Depending on that we could made a new tag (for example "GM") and keep "Date" as it subtag (no "Date" -> use "GM") or for less rettaging (maybe you used it like it?) use current "Date" tag as main gms tag and made a new subtag for pics like these, or if you don't think we need them, just use current "Date" tag without adding anything (like you said you think it could be at first = I'll just set all gm location to "Date")

(combination with "Profile" will not mean anything extra, just that it's used for both)




or something else entirely...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 04, 2014, 01:27:22 PM
Xela suggested to use profile+date for girlsmeets back then, and I agreed. If he didn't code it yet after all this time, well, job well done, Xela  :D

Ok, let's say we'll use GM for girlsmeets. GM pics are (mostly) profile pics that can be used for girlsmeets as well with no questions asked, ie for example a girl standing somewhere on the street in a decent position, not sitting in a bathroom half-naked or something.

Now, date tag is what confuses me most, because it's almost like Xela's Active tag or wm's Cute trait, something subjective, not entirely obvious for everyone. Basically, you mean something like "girl in a more or less pretty dress and in a more or less good mood makes it clear that she likes MC"?  :)

I guess that could be useful on many occasions, however, I expect such pictures will be rare for characters that don't have tons of pics like Asuka or Touhou girls.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 04, 2014, 03:14:22 PM
Ok, let's say we'll use GM for girlsmeets. GM pics are (mostly) profile pics that can be used for girlsmeets as well with no questions asked, ie for example a girl standing somewhere on the street in a decent position, not sitting in a bathroom half-naked or something.

Yes, that's it. Advantage is in selecting a pics from anywhere (like, if we add a "palace district", formal clothes pics to be used here from otherwise "etiquette" pics).
It should be very simple, like it was intended. It's mainly just the early confusion with swimsuit and ent pics that caused this to be a little messy now. I'll try it in my version with a testing girl.

Quote
Now, date tag is what confuses me most, because it's almost like Xela's Active tag or wm's Cute trait, something subjective, not entirely obvious for everyone. Basically, you mean something like "girl in a more or less pretty dress and in a more or less good mood makes it clear that she likes MC"?  :)
Yes, something like that  :) . I usually tend to put unusual outfits (=not what the girl normally wear on most other pics) to categories like "beauty" or this one. Also, it's very unlikely something like this can support expressions (it's even hard for normal profile sometimes), so "likes MC" is a good vague description.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 15, 2014, 10:52:14 AM
I separated battle and fighting tag. "battle" is now used for normal guard job and in arena girlsmeets, "fighting" is used for guard job when there was a fight with customers and in arena after-match report.


I also prepared code in all girlsmeets location to use new "girlsmeets" tag. It's commented out now.


I wanted to repair tags in jobs and add tags like "sleep" to rest with some simple texts there, but that turned out to be much more complicated, so it had to wait....


If you don't agree with something, I revert it back.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 15, 2014, 01:43:02 PM
We also could use profile+weapon tag for guards, probably. Otherwise, why have weapon tag at all?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 15, 2014, 02:29:40 PM
I just thought, because Guard is a main job, that it could use a dedicated tag category. And "fighting" was not used anywhere...
When girl have a significant weapon, she usually have it on almost all pics (Airi...) and mages usually have none. And because we allowed changing occupation, player can make warrior from first schoolgirl, so "weapon" is not really dependable.
But yes, we could add some series of checks using profile instead, like weapon first, confident look second or something... "battle" just seemed easier to me.


And about usefulness of tag like "weapon" and some others - no idea.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 16, 2014, 07:32:45 AM
While "weapon" tag could be useful theoretically, I doubt we actually will use it. I don't remember, perhaps it was Rudi's tag originally.

I separated battle and fighting tag. "battle" is now used for normal guard job and in arena girlsmeets, "fighting" is used for guard job when there was a fight with customers and in arena after-match report.
So battle is when a girl only looks like she is ready for combat (weapon, armor, etc), and fighting is when she actually attacks someone?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on April 18, 2014, 04:10:22 AM
So battle is when a girl only looks like she is ready for combat (weapon, armor, etc), and fighting is when she actually attacks someone?
Yes, right now it is like that. But it's easy to change...
---------
Like I said in general thread, it seems that we need to add a few tags for the sake of performance, so there is no main tag that is often used alone...
It would be good to move "blowjob" to the same level as "handjob", "titsjob"...  but I have no clue how to name main tag for this group then... Any Idea?




EDIT: keeping "blowjob" main tag as it is and adding "BJ" or something for normal blowjob pics may be better alternative
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on April 18, 2014, 04:41:45 AM
Hard to say. Maybe stimulation?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 11, 2014, 12:05:48 PM
Hey everyone!
Bad time to get a summer cold, but let's see how much I can get done today!

Considerations
First conclusionsFirst approach [notes]
A few notes on the notes:
Required: At least one image with this tag is required for a character
Hidden: The tag doesn't need to be displayed in the tagger
Own text description: If the tag is used as fallback, the text description is also changed to be more general

Remaining problems
What about futas or customer groups? Differentiate between male and female interaction/groups or simply display multiple names for the same tag?

What if a slave is forced into a job with no fitting image present? Show a profile picture and a generic fail text or just don't allow the assignment?


First round of discussion
Go for it!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 11, 2014, 04:37:17 PM

I believe that unless you want from Xela to recode the whole thing (good luck with that, I failed even when proposing a one function to read what tags are in chosen image  :) ), you need to make your concept more compatible with the game. Also something similar to what you call "fallback" and "blocking" is already in there.
-----


This is how tags work in Pytfall:
Code: [Select]
has_image(self, *tags):This function returns True is a girls has images with specified tags. Most of the jobs are coded using this, so the girl will not do something if she doesn't have an image for it.
Example:
Code: [Select]
if self.client.act == 'sex':
               
                acts = list()
                if self.girl.has_image("sex", "doggy"):
                    acts.append("sex_doggy")
                   
                if acts:   
                    act = choice(acts)
                else:
                    act = None


                elif act == "sex_doggy":
                    self.txt.append("He ordered %s to bend over and took her from behind. \n"%self.girl.nickname)
                    self.img = self.girl.show("sex", "doggy", resize=(740, 685))


                else:   
                    self.txt.append(choice(['He wanted some old-fashioned straight fucking. \n']))                    self.img = self.girl.show("sex", resize=(740, 685))
one position from Whore job report
-------------
Show method we use to display images by tags
Code: [Select]
show(self, *tags, **kwargs):
            '''Returns an image with the supplied tags.
have 3 types of possible behaviors
Code: [Select]
types:
                     - normal = normal search behaviour, try all tags first, then first tag + one of each tags taken from the end of taglist
                     - any = will try to find an image with any of the tags chozen at random
                     - first_default = will use first tag as a default instead of a profile and only than switch to profile
and it's also possible to exclude any tags from the search
Examples:
Code: [Select]
chr.show("nude", "simple bg", type="first_default", exclude=main_sex_tags) to show a nude pics in girlmeets
Code: [Select]
self.girl.show("maid", "cleaning", "cooking", "bunny", "waitress", exclude=main_sex_tags + ["strip"], resize=(740, 685), type="any") images for service course
Code: [Select]
show("bikini", "beach", "swimsuit", exclude=for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"], type="any") current beach girlmeets




There are some flaws, but this is what we have now. (a few pages back you can find a post where I tried to explain what the main issue is)
I'm sorry if you know all of this, but what I want to say is, that talking about tags now is not making something out of a blue but improving, so your concept would be much easier to understand if you can point out what parts of the current system are those that you are not satisfied with.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 11, 2014, 05:03:38 PM
I'm sorry if you know all of this, but what I want to say is, that talking about tags now is not making something out of a blue but improving, so your concept would be much easier to understand if you can point out what parts of the current system are those that you are not satisfied with.

Please check the fourth conclusion again. The current system is bad because it's basically a patchwork. If you want to make it good then a few small changes just won't do.

If what you want are algorithms, sure, no big deal. But before discussing how to implement a concept, the first requirement is that the concept is more or less final. If you just want to know what exactely is wrong with the current system then check the considerations - the current system complies with none of them (except for the fourth, sorry for missing that).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 11, 2014, 06:41:12 PM
  • Level of detail
    Tags are supposed to descripe the situation in one word, everything else is most likely not important enough to be mentioned

No, tags are supposed to describe situation in many words. I don't understand what you mean by this.

   
  • Gender differentiation
    Text descriptions (and therefore customers) aren't gender neutral
  • Fallbacks
    A hierarchical fallback system should be in place

Gender is obvious.

Fallbacks as a part of tagging system is absurd. This is something that should be handled with sorting logic.

Lets say you have a picture of a girl in a bunny suit that will be used during slave training for mimicry and during jobs for service/casino. You'll want different fallbacks. There are dozens of examples like this.

   
  • Blocking
    If a tag without explicit fallback is not present, block the action
  • Ease of use
    The tags should be intuitive and not overloaded

True, the latter might not be possible without giving away tagging freedom.

   
  • Quick tagging
    All tags should fit on one editor page and should be grouped
First conclusions
  • 1 & 2: Different tags for different customer types/genders are needed (at least externally)
  • 2 & 3: The fallback tree is separated for each customer type
  • 3 & 4: Defining the character's allowed occupations is no longer necessary - either an image with the parent tag for a job category is there or it's not
  • 5 & 6: The concept is based on a bottom-up approach
  • 2 & 5 & 6: The tagger hides non relevant tags or renames them based on the customer gender

Quick tagging as in removing sex tags if profile is chosen would be awesome. But that isn't easy to customize (2 + 5 + 6)

"ParentJob" is not going to fly. We will add jobs and I've already wrote what I think about hierarchy.

[/list]First approach [notes]
  • Prostitute [required, hidden, own text description]
    • Sex [hidden, own text description]
      • Vaginal [not displayed for M/M]
      • Anal
    • MakeOut [hidden, own text description]
      • Blowjob [displayed as "Licking" for F/F]
      • Handjob [displayed as "Fingering" for F/F]
      • Titjob [not displayed for F/F and M/M]
      • Footjob
      • Grinding
  • Profile [required]
    • Freetime [character is resting]
    • Exhausted [auto-rest triggered]
      • Injured [aggressive customer triggered]
  • Beach [if no image present, character won't appear on the beach]
  • (Other locations) [same as above]
  • Fighter [if no image present, character can't have the profession]
    • Arena
    • (Others)
  • (Other jobs) [same as above]

Incomplete but it looks fine.

A few notes on the notes:
Required: At least one image with this tag is required for a character
Hidden: The tag doesn't need to be displayed in the tagger
Own text description: If the tag is used as fallback, the text description is also changed to be more general

Remaining problems
What about futas or customer groups? Differentiate between male and female interaction/groups or simply display multiple names for the same tag?

What if a slave is forced into a job with no fitting image present? Show a profile picture and a generic fail text or just don't allow the assignment?

You didn't cover who's taking the action on the pictures.

I believe that unless you want from Xela to recode the whole thing (good luck with that, I failed even when proposing a one function to read what tags are in chosen image  :) )

I don't remember this, what do you mean?

Please check the fourth conclusion again. The current system is bad because it's basically a patchwork. If you want to make it good then a few small changes just won't do.

If what you want are algorithms, sure, no big deal. But before discussing how to implement a concept, the first requirement is that the concept is more or less final. If you just want to know what exactely is wrong with the current system then check the considerations - the current system complies with none of them (except for the fourth, sorry for missing that).

I don't think calling the current concept "patchwork" is either fair or accurate. The concept and purpose of tagging system is to provide maximum amount of information for any given image.

We've started possible with amount of tags we have now * 1.5 or 2.

Dark/CW tagged a couple of girls and got rid of the tags we thought that we'd never use.

After that a bit of tagging again, we got rid of all tags that were far to rare and added some that could be of use for events in the future and were available for a bunch of girls.
======================================================

I am yet to see how you're planning to handle future updates to the game with your concept. Conveniently writing "OtherJobs" basically means that every time a job is added, Dark/CW would have to go though  20 - 30 thousands of images to add new hierarchies and structure. That's beyond absurd. Not mentioning that I can derive any form of heirachy imaginable and write it to a dict for quick access and checking of jobs/events/access in 1/10000 of the time it would take them to go through the images.

The power of current system is that it carries insane amount of information about the image and enables almost unlimited expansion of the game without re-tagging to include new trees. There is nothing you can do with the tree system that would get the job done half as well.

That's my take on the topic anyway. Dark/CW have tagged +/- 30 000 of images between them so these decisions are ultimately up to them.[/list]
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 11, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Hey there!
Alright, there seem to be a few things that seem really off to me, so I'll start with them.

I don't think calling the current concept "patchwork" is either fair or accurate. The concept and purpose of tagging system is to provide maximum amount of information for any given image.
Conveniently writing "OtherJobs" basically means that every time a job is added, Dark/CW would have to go though  20 - 30 thousands of images to add new hierarchies and structure. That's beyond absurd. Not mentioning that I can derive any form of heirachy imaginable and write it to a dict for quick access and checking of jobs/events/access in 1/10000 of the time it would take them to go through the images.
I disagree. No, I don't just disagree, I think that is absurd (or maybe beyond absurd  ;) ). I have never in my life seen a working system that is based on infinite information instead of necessary information. It might seem convenient for you as a developer that you don't have to redo some tagging after adding a new job/location/whatever, but for the user that has to deal with what's there it's horrible and it definitely shouldn't stay this way.
Besides that, what is the advantage of tagging things that might never make it into the final game instead of tagging things after they are added?

After that a bit of tagging again, we got rid of all tags that were far to rare and added some that could be of use for events in the future and were available for a bunch of girls.
Argh, that philosophy again. You basically do lots of unnecessary work by using a top-down approach and then try to make decisions based on that work instead of just designing it bottom-up - and I really don't understand why.

I am yet to see how you're planning to handle future updates to the game with your concept.
If you are just referring to (re-)tagging effort, it doesn't make any difference wether I have to tag tons of things that aren't used yet or add additional tags after they were added. If you are referring to the general expandability of the tags, I don't see the problem.

The power of current system is that it carries insane amount of information about the image and enables almost unlimited expansion of the game without re-tagging to include new trees. There is nothing you can do with the tree system that would get the job done half as well.
Indeed. And I have absolutely no interest in designing a system that carries an insane amount of unused information. Actually, I want the opposite: A system that only carries relevant information.

No, tags are supposed to describe situation in many words. I don't understand what you mean by this.
Definitely not. Tags are keywords that are supposed to carry as much information as possible in one word. If you want to descripe a situation as detailed as possible, use a description.



So much for the general things. Now let's continue with less important stuff...

That's my take on the topic anyway. Dark/CW have tagged +/- 30 000 of images between themselves so these decisions are ultimately up to them.
I can hold against that with exactely 15658 images that I use to test different tagging approaches. If we can settle the conceptional problem I will gladly publish all of those packs.

Fallbacks as a part of tagging system is absurd. This is something that should be handled with sorting logic.
Uhm... I don't see the point. What do you mean by sorting logic? And why should that not be part of the tagging concept?

Lets say you have a picture of a girl in a bunny suit that will be used during slave training for mimicry and during jobs for service/casino. You'll want different fallbacks. There are dozens of examples like this.
And what stops you from tagging the image as both "Slave training" and "Service"?

Quick tagging as in removing sex tags if profile is chosen would be awesome. But that isn't easy to customize (2 + 5 + 6)
Doesn't sound too difficult. Click -> add the tag normally. Ctrl+Click -> remove other professions.

"ParentJob" is not going to fly.
I don't get it (propably my bad), what's "ParentJob" in this case?

You didn't cover who's taking the action on the pictures.
Indeed, and I didn't plan to. The prostitute takes the action, have you ever gone to a brothel to please someone else?

Oh my, so many quotes.
€: And no, calling the current system a patchwork wasn't fair, sorry if that was offensive. I would never have imagined that you actually have unused tags on purpose.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 11, 2014, 08:03:58 PM
I disagree. No, I don't just disagree, I think that is absurd (or maybe beyond absurd  ;) ). I have never in my life seen a working system that is based on infinite information instead of necessary information. It might seem convenient for you as a developer that you don't have to redo some tagging after adding a new job/location/whatever, but for the user that has to deal with what's there it's horrible and it definitely shouldn't stay this way.
Besides that, what is the advantage of tagging things that might never make it into the final game instead of tagging things after they are added?

It's not "infinite", did you miss the part when I wrote that tags were through through and filtered out by the only two people who'd created native content for this game on any large scale?

It has also been very clearly stated by Dark I believe that users are not forced to tag images as thoroughly as development team does.

I already stated the advantage, which is that no retagging would be required as we add new modules to the game.

Argh, that philosophy again. You basically do lots of unnecessary work by using a top-down approach and then try to make decisions based on that work instead of just designing it bottom-up - and I really don't understand why.
If you are just referring to (re-)tagging effort, it doesn't make any difference wether I have to tag tons of things that aren't used yet or add additional tags after they were added. If you are referring to the general expandability of the tags, I don't see the problem.

I need to see Dark/CW state that iterating over all images after major addons is the same as tagging them once with a larger pool of tags.

Indeed. And I have absolutely no interest in designing a system that carries an insane amount of unused information. Actually, I want the opposite: A system that only carries relevant information.

From the perspective of writing actual code, pinpoint/relevant tags are obviously far more convenient to use. This has a disadvantage that on expansion, whole thing would likely have to be tagged with new tags.

Definitely not. Tags are keywords that are supposed to carry as much information as possible in one word. If you want to descripe a situation as detailed as possible, use a description.

Yeah well, we'll never agree on this premise :)

So much for the general things. Now let's continue with less important stuff...
I can hold against that with exactely 15658 images that I use to test different tagging approaches. If we can settle the conceptional problem I will gladly publish all of those packs.

Feel free to share, I'd love to take a look of how different systems could be loaded and called from the game.

Uhm... I don't see the point. What do you mean by sorting logic? And why should that not be part of the tagging concept?

Because it can't be. I mean routines for sorting images and picking the best one from those available. There is no point in trying to do it with tagging because it'll have to be done with code in a lot of cases anyway.

And what stops you from tagging the image as both "Slave training" and "Service"?

Nothing, we're already doing it but if you have to specify fallbacks when calling images in the game, there is no need for doing that during the tagging.

Doesn't sound too difficult. Click -> add the tag normally. Ctrl+Click -> remove other professions.
I don't get it (propably my bad), what's "ParentJob" in this case?

If you say so.

I meant fallback/parent category.

Indeed, and I didn't plan to. The prostitute takes the action, have you ever gone to a brothel to please someone else?

LoL You tagged 15658 images and typed this... At least Dark/CW'll have a laugh :D
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 11, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
It's not "infinite", did you miss the part when I wrote that tags were through through and filtered out by the only two people who'd created native content for this game on any large scale?
Mathematically speaking, a system that is based on adding as much information as possible and then filtering out what's not needed will always be countably infinite. I did not miss that part.

It has also been very clearly stated by Dark I believe that users are not forced to tag images as thoroughly as development team does.
Nobody needs to create packs in general. Is that a reason for you not to write a tagging software? No, it's not. You want people to use your systems at some point in the future, so why do you keep telling me that nobody is forced to do anything?

I already stated the advantage, which is that no retagging would be required as we add new modules to the game.

I need to see Dark/CW state that iterating over all images after major addons is the same as tagging them once with a larger pool of tags.
I'd definitely say so - after passing almost all 15k images with my systems (including several revisions) and 6299 with yours, I still feel like the 15k cost me less time. I didn't use a stopwatch though.

Because it can't be. I mean routines for sorting images and picking the best one from those available. There is no point in trying to do it with tagging because it'll have to be done with code in a lot of cases anyway.
I still don't get it (you may now call me stupid). Are we still talking about the same thing?
There is no "best" image available in my approach. Either the tag is there or it's not. If it's not, try again with the parent tag. Recurse. If the tag doesn't have a parent and no image with the tag is present, block the action.

Nothing, we're already doing it but if you have to specify fallbacks when calling images in the game, there is no need for doing that during the tagging.
See above. Every tag that is not on the first level has a parent tag. If no image with the tag is present, try the parent tag.
For the example: If no image with the "casino" tag is there, try its parent tag "service". If that still doesn't have an image, the action shouldn't be possible.
Likewise, if no image with the "mimicry training" is present, try "slave training" (or whatever the parent tag would be for that).

Parent tags can be defined with a very simple tree structure. No need to hardcode anything.

LoL You tagged 15658 images and typed this... At least Dark/CW'll have a laugh :D
I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that sounds like you're trying to make fun of me. That statement was serious. Prostitutes are paid to please me, not to be pleased by me. If the image shows the second situation, it doesn't belong into the pack.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 11, 2014, 09:15:37 PM
Mathematically speaking, a system that is based on adding as much information as possible and then filtering out what's needed will always be countably infinite. I did not miss that part.

Before we start multiplying infinities, we have chosen a number of tags. So practically speaking the amount is finite, lets not get carried away.

Nobody needs to create packs in general. Is that a reason for you not to write a tagging software? No, it's not. You want people to use your systems at some point in the future, so why do you keep telling me that nobody is forced to do anything?

I referenced Dark and I told you that cause it's true.

I'd definitely say so - after passing almost all 15k images with my systems (including several revisions) and 6299 with yours, I still feel like the 15k cost me less time. I didn't use a stopwatch though.

Well, I've tagged about 300 images so I rely on Dark/CW in these matters. They were in favor of the tag it once approach I believe.

I still don't get it (you may now call me stupid). Are we still talking about the same thing?
There is no "best" image available in my approach. Either the tag is there or it's not. If it's not, try again with the parent tag. Recurse. If the tag doesn't have a parent and no image with the tag is present, block the action.

I see, our concept often assumes picking best images based on location, clothing, mood (expression), maybe more. I think this is a source of confusion, we strive to create a system that would allow to pick images as precise to the requirement of an event as possible, you're trying to narrow it down to it's base.

See above. Every tag that is not on the first level has a parent tag. If no image with the tag is present, try the parent tag.
For the example: If no image with the "casino" tag is there, try its parent tag "service". If that still doesn't have an image, the action shouldn't be possible.
Likewise, if no image with the "mimicry training" is present, try "slave training" (or whatever the parent tag would be for that).

The trouble is that service tag would also include pics of a girl cooking stuff, cleaning, doing dishes. There is no way in seven hells you'd want to show that instead of a bunnygirl in a casino environment, examples like that are all over the place, can't you see that it's crap? I don't really know how else to explain that hierarchical system based on tags themselves instead ingame sorting logic is absurd. Rudi been two years at it before he introduced tagging system to us (we started out with WMlike system ourselves). We've been at it for almost an year of not longer ourselves. Noone could come up with a far better design than we have now that would be applicable. Rudi's original system is based on a very complex weight based selection that I didn't want to deal with at my level of coding skill when that system was implemented.

For the example: If no image with the "casino" tag is there, try its parent tag "service". If that still doesn't have an image, the action shouldn't be possible.
Likewise, if no image with the "mimicry training" is present, try "slave training" (or whatever the parent tag would be for that).

So we do a casino job when we have a cooking pic...

Likewise, if no image with the "mimicry training" is present, try "slave training" (or whatever the parent tag would be for that).

And so we do bunny training when we have ponygirl pic...

Parent tags can be defined with a very simple tree structure. No need to hardcode anything.

........

I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that sounds like you're trying to make fun of me. That statement was serious. Prostitutes are paid to please me, not to be pleased by me. If the image shows the second situation, it doesn't belong into the pack.

Ofcourse I don't mean it that way. We just spent so much time coding events where a costumer girl would prefer licking prostitutes tits... or a cunt... or enjoying fucking the prostitute with a strapon and so on... came up with an extensive system to relay who's acting out on the image and wrote events and texts based on that.

Somehow you tagged 15k images and never considered that? Or suggested that we throw away all those pics? Delete the events? Get rid of the concept to simplefy the system?

I thought laughing would beat crying over it...

Look, sorry if I come out as hostile, it's definitely not the intent, especially towards someone who's offering to help developing the game but we've been over all of it with Dark and CW. I think I provide reasonable arguments from a standpoint of considerable experience and thinking the system through and you're throwing mathematical infinities as counter arguments at me...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 04:10:33 AM
All tags should fit on one editor page and should be grouped
Well, they should be grouped indeed, but one page thing should be optional (since tags list is xml/json based, ideally it should be customizable, like in Rudi's tagger). Tagger should not require big monitors with huge resolutions to work. I won't be able to tag at work otherwise, and I have a lot free time there.

Remaining problems
What about futas or customer groups? Differentiate between male and female interaction/groups or simply display multiple names for the same tag?
Rudi's tagger has tags like two males, one female, etc. They describe customer groups (excluding the girl, she is always there after all).
The problem with futa is lack of pack makers who willing to make futa packs  :D
If we'll get one, we always can expand the system. But I kinda doubt that we will in the near future.

Dark/CW tagged a couple of girls and got rid of the tags we thought that we'd never use.

After that a bit of tagging again, we got rid of all tags that were far to rare and added some that could be of use for events in the future and were available for a bunch of girls.
There still some doubtful tags exist. Since we going to retag pics (in either name or binary form) anyway after adding ST because it might require some new important tags for bdsm, we get rid of them.

If you are just referring to (re-)tagging effort, it doesn't make any difference wether I have to tag tons of things that aren't used yet or add additional tags after they were added. If you are referring to the general expandability of the tags, I don't see the problem.
The idea of regular retagging after adding every single system is not even considered. It will effectively discourage third party pack makers, and it will give us huge amounts of work without end. Tagging system should be as comprehensive as possible within reasonable limits and general game concept (ie a game that uses publicly available anime and hentai girls pictures).

I already have like 200000 untagged pics in new packs, and I stopped making them for now btw. It might be possible to retag again and again 15000 pics, but not hundreds of thousands.

I need to see Dark/CW state that iterating over all images after major addons is the same as tagging them once with a larger pool of tags.
Oh, that's simple. If I have to retag all my packs all the time, I will ragequit this dev team and join Old Huntsman's dev team, and my last words will be "see ya nerds"  :D

The prostitute takes the action, have you ever gone to a brothel to please someone else?
That's extremely narrow vision, sorry. I can't really give h examples right now since I don't have access to my packs all the time, but at very least the game is not about brothels and prostitutes only already.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 12, 2014, 05:36:09 AM
I need to see Dark/CW state that iterating over all images after major addons is the same as tagging them once with a larger pool of tags.
I can say for myself that updating packs with tags is relatively quick, as there is usually need to look at a small part of the images (only at sex images, only at combat images...).


But the real problem of this lies within modders that create something for the game and then went inactive and obviously can't update their work. Just looking at the WM packs, how many of then doesn't support newly added jobs. So we don't want for tags to be changed after the release, and cover as many possible situation as we could now, even if they're not all used yet. Better then have girls that can't do half of the future jobs because of missing new tags I suppose.


I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that sounds like you're trying to make fun of me. That statement was serious. Prostitutes are paid to please me, not to be pleased by me. If the image shows the second situation, it doesn't belong into the pack.
For pure whore job, this may be true, but we don't use sex pics there only. MC can have sex within private interaction (even with a warrior girl), and they're also used in classes and will be used for slave training.

But it's just a text governing tag I suppose...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 05:48:19 AM
Just looking at the WM packs, how many of then doesn't support newly added jobs.
Yup, good point.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 06:34:37 AM
Yup, good point.

Yeap. But it's not just that.

The tag based hierarchical system doesn't work, not even for sex images properly. We employ a very good tagging design with pinpoint precision showing, developer defined backups and customizable sorting logic on per case basis. No tree can beat that, no tree can even come close...

Otherwise, if we're talking retagging, we need a tag to exclude all sex tags other than profile (which is too general and not always applicable). That will improve tags lookup process significantly. ST tags after the concept is stable and I think that'll be it unless you guys can come up with some new tags applicable to a large number of pics. We obviously remove all tags you'd consider crap but lets not get carried away with that either. So far we stand 3 - 1 on the extensive vs pinpoint tagging concept unless I misread your posts :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 07:23:17 AM
And I have absolutely no interest in designing a system that carries an insane amount of unused information. Actually, I want the opposite: A system that only carries relevant information.
Unused yesterday, used tomorrow. You see, it's a long term project. It seems that many people think that we are about to finish it. That's probably why they quit pretty quickly without saying a word. In fact, this is only the beginning. The game can be developed for many years, with more new modules and systems.

Btw, the main our problem is not the system. The main problem here is notorious ready-to-use, purely based on xml/json list of tags, either binary or files names outputting tagger with polished gui. I'm so tired of alpha stage taggers  ::)

You could try to read Rudi's notes btw, both here and on Otherworld forum. He had some ideas about tags weight, they might be useful to improve the system.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 07:39:46 AM
You could try to read Rudi's notes btw, both here and on Oherworld forum. He had some ideas about tags weight, they might be useful to improve the system.

I always thought those were insane :)

But with some practice... it may work. Rudi definitely thought so and he spent more time thinking that through than all of us combined.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 08:04:58 AM
Hey everyone!
Alright guys, I think we can stop here. You convinced me that I won't be able to convince you.

Quick note to Xela: I still have no idea why you think that a hierarchical system doesn't work - you see problems where there are none. If working in a casino is part of the maid job, the maid outfit can be used just as well. And if the tag changes in order to use a fallback, so can the text description.

But that's not important now. I'll try to make my honest opinion short:
You guys spent a huge amount of effort and unnecessary time on a system that is fundamentally wrong. I mentioned it earlier, I've never seen a well working system built the way you do it before, I'm curious how you'll see this in a year or two.
Anyway, I can understand why you don't want to go back now, after all that effort.

As it stands now, I can promise you that you will (and propably already did) lose a lot of potential pack creators, simply because your system is so "extensive" that nobody wants to deal with it (except for very dedicated people).
As for me, I see it as a challenge. You guys made cleaning up the current concept a lot more difficult.
Also, I wish you lots of fun while doing exactely what you wanted to avoid with your system: Retagging. It propably won't be the last time.

Ok, that last line is very cynical, sorry  ;D .
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 09:09:43 AM
Quick note to Xela: I still have no idea why you think that a hierarchical system doesn't work - you see problems where there are none. If working in a casino is part of the maid job, the maid outfit can be used just as well. And if the tag changes in order to use a fallback, so can the text description.

Quick note to living:

Would you mind writing that one text?
============================================
By your design:

If we have a parent tag: MaidJob, we do the action.

Action = Dealer. (You don't like dealer tag or going to say it's a different parent category? Lets say: Serving tables.)

No pic was found for action... so we fall back to MaidJob. Action is still Serving Tables.

In MaidJob category we have: Pics of a girl cooking a dinner, pics of a girl cleaning the house with a feather duster...

We failed to find the exact tag... so we do the action (corresponding stat/monetary rewards/clients satisfaction modification) and we fall back on a general text describing Serving Tables action while showing either a cooking dinner or a cleaning picture. So, write me that text...

I've never seen a well working system built the way you do it before, I'm curious how you'll see this in a year or two.

As it stands now, I can promise you that you will (and propably already did) lose a lot of potential pack creators, simply because your system is so "extensive" that nobody wants to deal with it (except for very dedicated people).

Also, I wish you lots of fun while doing exactely what you wanted to avoid with your system: Retagging. It propably won't be the last time.

Our system is working marvelously. Pictures are very well matched with their jobs, fallbacks are developer defined and extendible without bothering content creators.

You may not have noticed but we didn't even write a tagging guide yet, because we always knew tagging system is unfinished and will require one last review before we feel justified asking modders to contribute.

No, it will be the last time.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Pinkutako on August 12, 2014, 09:23:06 AM
No, no.  What you guys are missing is what he has wanted to hear all along.   He wants this:  "Oh, wow, Livingforever, you are the smartest, bestest programmer of all time.  How can we not worship your every thought.  Let us completely drop our concept that we have been working on for over a year and do things your way, because you are Soooooo smart."


Ya,  nothing like a someone trying to railroad their own, unsolicited ideas into a project and then get huffy when no one listens.




From my end user viewpoint.  Livingforever is missing the entire point of the tags system.  Which is making the ingame text not only match the image, but have the ability to describe the image in detail.  This is the defining trait of this game IMHO. 
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 09:42:52 AM
No, no.  What you guys are missing is what he has wanted to hear all along.   He wants this:  "Oh, wow, Livingforever, you are the smartest, bestest programmer of all time.  How can we not worship your every thought.  Let us completely drop our concept that we have been working on for over a year and do things your way, because you are Soooooo smart."


Ya,  nothing like a someone trying to railroad their own, unsolicited ideas into a project and then get huffy when no one listens.

Clearly an overkill...

He's basically trying to do what (imo) cannot be done, it's not like we haven't entertained the idea of hierarchical tags before. Noone could make it work nearly as well as a system where sorting/image picking logic is done in code on per case basis.

From my end user viewpoint.  Livingforever is missing the entire point of the tags system.  Which is making the ingame text not only match the image, but have the ability to describe the image in detail.  This is the defining trait of this game IMHO.

**Ability to match picture to the setting/surroundings/atmosphere.

With the next release, we'll document the event system and tagging. Events are practically written in open text at this point.

g "I am a bit hungry!"
g "Want to go out and eat?"

is all it takes. Showing/transforming pictures is also very easy. With out tagging concept, events can be written with easy without any particular girl in mind while preserving very accurate image representation and specify fallbacks as required.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
So, no new tagger after all, I take it? Too bad.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 09:51:01 AM
So, no new tagger after all, I take it? Too bad.

? I am not sure I got that from his post...

Want me to code one to PyTFall? I could be done with a base prototype by tonight? (75% of logic required is already there).
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 10:23:18 AM
Would be cool. His last post sounds like an upset goodbye to me.

Though I'm not sure if it should be binary or name based, it's up to you, I guess.
And since we have a permanent coder for this one, it doesn't have to be purely xml/json based if it will be too difficult to implement.

I'll remind you what Rudi didn't finish in his tagger:
- an option to delete currently displayed picture; moreover, with his tagger you cannot even delete any picture in the folder, it just stops working;
- jump to N option or something like that; I personally like how mcmanus solved this problem.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 10:37:44 AM
Would be cool. His last post sounds like an upset goodbye to me.

Though I'm not sure if it should be binary or name based, it's up to you, I guess.
And since we have a permanent coder for this one, it doesn't have to be purely xml/json based if it will be too difficult to implement.

I'll remind you what Rudi didn't finish in his tagger:
- an option to delete currently displayed picture; moreover, with his tagger you cannot even delete any picture in the folder, it just stops working;
- jump to N option or something like that; I personally like how mcmanus solved this problem.

Ok, I cannot do a layout like Rudi's where you can move stuff around. Or rather I can but it'll take a good deal of time (don't think I can manage that by tonight). I am not going to bother with XMP either, there is little point in that.

I'll just come up with the most basic version. We'll all test it and add stuff to it as required.

PS: It's not really up to me... I need opinions:

Binary:
+ As fast as it's going to get
- Not readable without software
- Cannot add/get rid of an image you dislike without software

Files:
- Somewhat slower than binary
- There could be a very unlikely case where image name will get too long (Very unlikely)
+ Humanly readable
+ Can just delete any image you don't like without having to adjust anything anywhere
+ Can add an image without tagger just by memorizing basic tags (if we go with a pretty format obviously)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 11:02:17 AM
Hm, yeah, I forgot about deleting... Well, we do want players to delete any pictures that they don't like without too much fuss. On the other hand, the tagger might be a part of the release, so anyone could do it in the end.

How difficult it might be to delete a picture with binary type? I mean, could it be done by pressing one button after deleting all unneeded pictures, like "rebuild pack" or something? Or you have to manually delete all deleted pictures again?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 11:07:04 AM
How difficult it might be to delete a picture with binary type? I mean, could it be done by pressing one button after deleting all unneeded pictures, like "rebuild pack" or something? Or you have to manually delete all deleted pictures again?

Difficult to say. It should be doable: writing a script that forces a check of existing images vs database entries and deletes entries as required over all the images in the game... to be executed as requested by user.
Edit: This is doable but a bit clumsy due to a database structure....

On the other hand, filenames are just loaded at the game start or when a database rebuild is requested.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 11:12:59 AM
Ok, what about names approach? Does the game check all existing pictures every launch? Or we'll need an option to rebuild database after deleting pictures anyway?
Because right now with jsons approach you do need to run tagger and rebuild json after deleting, and it's not a big deal. Even if we wouldn't change our approach, players still couldn't delete pictures 100% freely.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 11:24:06 AM
Does the game check all existing pictures every launch?

You delete the picture and that's it. Same when editing a tag inside of a filename manually. Every time new game is started, database will be build based off the filenames. Database inside of the game will always have to be rebuild, doesn't matter what approach we take. Otherwise we'll have to create the database every time a save is loaded instead of getting one from the save.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 11:29:19 AM
I see. Well, let's take players friendly approach and use names then.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 11:38:11 AM
I see. Well, let's take players friendly approach and use names then.

I agree + going to binary or even loading binary instead of filename if binary file is available is always an option.

I am killing off jsons if there is going to be an update tonight. All images will have to be converted to filenames.

PS: You/CW can help out. There is a new tagdict.rpy (or something like that) file that maps two letter combinations to actual tags. See if you want to improve that. Like some obvious tags like Profile (pr) or BlowJob (bj) don't have to be obfuscated with letter + numeral as I did it.

Once that's done, we can all rename the files and get rid of JSONs.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 12:11:14 PM
Done, pushed. Base tags have recognizable designations now. Impossible to do for all tags of course, at least with 2 letters.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 12:28:36 PM
Done, pushed. Base tags have recognizable designations now. Impossible to do for all tags of course, at least with 2 letters.

Kewl

We'll need tabs I think, Ren'Py is having a bit of trouble with that many textbuttons. But I haven't tried using normal buttons yet, could be a lot faster...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 12:39:17 PM
We need them anyway. You need hentai tags when you tag hentai pics only.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 02:08:27 PM
Hey everyone!
I don't know if I should laugh or cry about the fact that I am being called huffy and upset, but you are the ones that immediately plan to exclude me without even bothering to read my post.
As for me, I see it as a challenge. You guys made cleaning up the current concept a lot more difficult.
Sounds quite clear to me. Maybe I phrased it wrong?

So... does having a different opinion than you make me a bad person? Do you want me to send you a CV to prove that my opinion is based on experience? Or do you just want to pretend that I was never here...
I don't blame your for clinging to a concept that you've been working for and with for a long time. But I think that you shouldn't blame me for sharing my unbiased, honest opinion.

In any case, all of that doesn't mean that I'm just disappearing.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 02:21:17 PM
I don't know if I should laugh or cry about the fact that I am being called huffy and upset, but you are the ones that immediately plan to exclude me without even bothering to read my post.Sounds quite clear to me. Maybe I phrased it wrong?

? I am not sure I got that from his post...

Don't generalize :)

We always need more people on the project. And having 4 taggers is better than 3 + One in Ren'Py will never work as well as one in Java, framework was never designed with that purpose in mind.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 02:26:08 PM
Don't generalize :)
You're right. Sorry.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
I have absolutely no interest in designing a system that carries an insane amount of unused information.
I believe it's impossible to do well something that doesn't interest you at all if you do not get paid for it.
If you are not interested in our tags system and want to help, there are dozens of other ways to help the project.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 02:36:50 PM
I believe it's impossible to do well something that doesn't interest you at all if you do not get paid for it.
If you are not interested in our tags system and want to help, there are dozens of other ways to help the project.
Please read the things that you are quoting. I said that I am not interested in designing a system like that. Since you are not interested in fundamental changes, the next step is to improve the system that is already in place - and I never excluded that option.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 02:42:07 PM
Please read the things that you are quoting. I said that I am not interested in designing a system like that. Since you are not interested in fundamental changes, the next step is to improve the system that is already in place - and I never excluded that option.

**We need to adds tags facilitating slave training.
**Remove all tags we may no longer require
**Add tags that significantly improve access to db like "clean" (not sex) There are two or three more of these.

Are we ready to kill off using JSON for ingame tags today? Or would it be wiser to wait until tomorrow with a bit fresher heads?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 12, 2014, 02:49:01 PM
I said that I am not interested in designing a system like that. Since you are not interested in fundamental changes, the next step is to improve the system that is already in place - and I never excluded that option.
Ok, I guess I misunderstood your intentions. We cannot make a final version without ST system anyway though, it probably should include more accurate tags for bdsm pics.

Are we ready to kill off using JSON for ingame tags today? Or would it be wiser to wait until tomorrow with a bit fresher heads?
I have two backups for all jsons and packs, there is nothing you can do to hurt me  8)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 02:56:35 PM
**We need to adds tags facilitating slave training.
**Remove all tags we may no longer require
**Add tags that significantly improve access to db like "clean" (not sex) There are two or three more of these.
I'll leave those changes up to you guys for now. I want to get a good overview over the current tags first (since I now understand your system behind them).

Are we ready to kill off using JSON for ingame tags today? Or would it be wiser to wait until tomorrow with a bit fresher heads?
Propably not today. Maybe I'll get some code written later - a conversion method (from JSON to filenames) is the first priority.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 03:19:24 PM
Propably not today. Maybe I'll get some code written later - a conversion method (from JSON to filenames) is the first priority.

That's done already.

I have two backups for all jsons and packs, there is nothing you can do to hurt me  8)

:D Good to know.

I ran into some minor issues so we'll convert tomorrow.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 12, 2014, 06:49:02 PM
That's done already.
And I even commented on the screenshot...

Well, in that case let's discuss the format real quick (because I love optimizations). Using two chars with a '-' as delimiter is fine, but the random identifiers should be put at the end of the string (because the last 4 characters [.jpg/.png] can be ignored anyway, so why not ignore the last 8 instead) and I think that two lowercase characters are easier to read (compared to one char and one digit).
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 12, 2014, 07:47:04 PM
And I even commented on the screenshot...

Well, in that case let's discuss the format real quick (because I love optimizations). Using two chars with a '-' as delimiter is fine, but the random identifiers should be put at the end of the string (because the last 4 characters [.jpg/.png] can be ignored anyway, so why not ignore the last 8 instead) and I think that two lowercase characters are easier to read (compared to one char and one digit).
Have fun!

The randomizer at the end is one less list slice indeed. We can rule out ".jpeg" extensions I guess. (This is now implemented)

We should prolly keep the numerals. They are very likely to help special tags standout a bit (pr, bj, le and etc.).

Edit:
**It's not yet possible to tag new images, only retag those that are already in the game. I'll add tagging new once tonight.
**It should be noted that with this tagger girls data file and folder with images would have to be created first (I don't want to invent an explorer in Ren'Py)
**Once it's in a better shape, it'll prolly make sense to to start the tagger separately from the main menu instead of main screen.

- We need some kind of a system for tabs/isolation of tags displayed on the screen. Ren'Py plainly cannot handle so many buttons at the same time.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 17, 2014, 12:51:15 PM
Hi everyone!
While sorting all the tags so the access with the editor is faster and somewhat more intuitive, I came across a couple of tags that don't make much sense to me.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 17, 2014, 01:49:42 PM
- ent is an old terminology for pictures where girls just have fun, like playing some games or dancing. We don't really use it anymore, since there are much more accurate tags.
- quest means backgroundless pictures that used during events and dialogues, like characters sprites in VN games.
- we have joy, libido and various events. Thus, girls can have a certain mood.
- anal beads are, um, used a bit differently than dildo, if you know what I mean. You can't really equip them for example  ::)
- dildo: dildo equipped but not used; do dildo: the character uses dildo on someone; dildo anal/dildo pussy: someone is using dildo on the character. This way texts match pictures.
- active is Xela's vague idea about activity during sex, either the character just lying around or shows signs of participation, like touches herself in ecstasy or something.
- Eat pussy should be replaced with cunnigulus. Xela thought that this term could be unknown to some people. But this is an adult game, people who don't know what is it should wait a bit before playing it.
- partner hidden: if you cannot say who is s/he, the picture can be used everywhere, including sex with MC, because partner is unidentifiable. Otherwise it can be used only during events like sex with a customer or something, ie when partner doesn't really matter.
- weapon means that the girl has a weapon on the picture, but she is not fighting. I'm not really sure if we need it though.
- autumn/winter can be easily identified by red leaves or snow, unlike other seasons. In some cases this may be important, at least Xela thinks so.
- beauty means that the girls tries/learns to make herself prettier. Used for charisma schools mostly.
- etiquette is the same for refinement.
- undress: not exactly. Striptease job implies certain conditions. If a girl removes some clothes at night in the bedroom alone, or at the beach near ocean for example, you can't pretend that this is a striptease job in your brothel.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 17, 2014, 02:12:31 PM
Hi!  :)


•ent = it's not used as it was intended to. I suggest it will be replaced by "active rest" tag for rest job texts. Or stay and be used as that. It's for all those activities girls do that are not common enough to justify its own tag (like "reading" is).
•quest = these are for backgroundless sprite images. I'm specially using it for VisualNovel-like images in my pack. But only place where those are appearing atm is slave market.
•mood = mood is currently used is interactions and some job events - like, if the girl is beaten, and there is no "hurt" tag image, "profile"+"sad" is used. It's also needed for those "quest" VN pics to distinguish them. In combination with "sex" and "active" it can be used to look for rapeish like pics and so on. But mood is definitely not needed for most of the secondary categories, because there is usually not enough pics for that anyway. We need to talk about that in review.
•dildo = there are pics when the girl or a partner is holding a dildo in hand and it's unsure where it will be used  :)  but it really may be unnecessary detail not worth having a tag
•active = it is a confusing tag. We were totally confused by that one too  :)  It was supposed to be for pics where the girl is actively cooperating with the act.
•eat pussy = I say it is the same. I'm for removing it.
•weapon = we decided not to use this one
•simple bg = this one is for images that can be use anywhere (=simple colored or graphic background). No bg tag existed for backgroundless pics that were no VN sprites ("quest" tag) but that is not really needed so we can get rid of one of those ("quest or "no bg").  This simple bg tag need reconsideration too, because it's the most common case among pictures so it may be worth it for to be considered as default one with no tag. But there do exist pictures with backgrounds no suitable for pytfall world (too modern, alien, mecha...) so this needs to be considered too. But this primarily depends on discussion about another tag, "girlmeets" (=tag for girl wandering around the game world). And there's that system problem with using main tags only...
•autumn/winter - I suppose autumn is excessive detail, but winter is distinctive enough so it may stay.
•partner hidden - now this tag as one I consider important. It's for intimate interaction where MC is taking part in. We don't want to show Naruto having sex when MC is the one supposed to be there, and most importantly, there are usually plenty of pics with headless males or point of view pics for the packs for this tag. But maybe the name is confusing a bit, as the partner is clearly there and not hidden,
•beauty = beauty tag is for beauty school course right now. It doesn't mean a type of clothes like "fashionable". If we really need a outfits tags is another question... I tend to have a lot of pics under this tag, as I'm putting most of the clothes unusual for the character in question there.
•etiquette = same, etiquette is for school course, formal is a clothes tag.
•undress = is for girl dressing, undressing, but not putting on a strip show. So it's used with "profile" tag or "rest" tag usually. I've had some pictures like that in my packs, but it's hard to imagine any use for them in the game. So this one tag could go I suppose.




I think it may be good to talk (after we get to trait review) about every not totally obvious tag like this, and also talk about the all major game screen on how pictures should be called there, because only then it will be truly clear for everyone. And make a guide of what we agree upon.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 17, 2014, 03:20:41 PM
Thanks for the clarifications!
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 17, 2014, 03:53:38 PM
Thanks for the clarifications!
  • So ent is a general freetime tag. I guess it should be renamed.
  • quest and no bg could be combined as sprite
  • Definition of cunnilingus: Oral stimulation of the clitoris or vulva. Sounds like licking to me.

Ent is a legacy from WM, we don't actually use it in the game due to more precise tags being available so it doesn't matter much what happens to it.

sprite... I really like this one!

We're using lick all over the code. I think the other one was dropped from the concept but remained in XMP data, that's why new dict doesn't have it while some JSONs still do. Same thing counts for weapon I believe, there ware some ideas to pinpoint weapon being used as a sextoy and pointing out battle pics where the girl is clearly armed, but that was dropped too I believe as of not being very useful.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 17, 2014, 04:21:14 PM


  • So ent is a general freetime tag. I guess it should be renamed.
Ent is a legacy from WM, we don't actually use it in the game due to more precise tags being available so it doesn't matter much what happens to it.
"Rest" is a general freetime tag  :)  I thought that ent could be for pictures when the girl is going to actively spend her free time in the city, vs the standard rest, when she is doing something at home (that doesn't have other tags, let's say painting). But I just checked all rest pictures in my packs and it's not needed at all, because all activities outside home will have location tags like "urban", "park" etc. and I could base relevant texts on that. So we could freely remove "ent".

But we surely need this "taking a nap" tag there for rest and I would support "having a bath" also.


@livingforever
"do" tags are primarily meaned for lesbian pics, to determine who is pleasing who. For whore job, is the girls is doing something to her female customer, we use "do tags" for such pics, and "without do" normal tags if it's the other way around. (so there will be both if they are doing something to each other).
"Dildo" and "do dildo" tags are not that needed as it could be up to the modder to decide on how that dildo will be used. But he can't use both "dildo pussy" and "dildo anal" tags at once, because that would mean there are two dildos used at the same time. (talk about complicated... maybe we should just have some "sex toys used" tag and screw everything  :)  )
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 17, 2014, 05:00:27 PM
"do" tags are primarily meaned for lesbian pics, to determine who is pleasing who. For whore job, is the girls is doing something to her female customer, we use "do tags" for such pics, and "without do" normal tags if it's the other way around. (so there will be both if they are doing something to each other).
"Dildo" and "do dildo" tags are not that needed as it could be up to the modder to decide on how that dildo will be used. But he can't use both "dildo pussy" and "dildo anal" tags at once, because that would mean there are two dildos used at the same time. (talk about complicated... maybe we should just have some "sex toys used" tag and screw everything  :)  )
Wait a second. I am aware how those tags are used. I do not want to remove all of them. But what stops you from using both those tags? What's the point in having dildo, dildo pussy and dildo anal when you could either keep the more general tag or the more precise ones. Keeping all three just makes no sense.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 18, 2014, 02:23:50 AM
  • I figured that beauty and etiquette are for the schools, but what classifies an image with that tag? Applying make-up, balancing books on her head? Or is there more to it?
More or less, it's at the discretion of the pack maker. You could try to find pics with these tags in our packs.

  • I don't know about undress, depending on how you put it it's either redundant with strip or with rest. Also, the strip tag doesn't specify wether it's her job or not.
But we don't try to push pictures into categories at all cost. If picture is not suited for strip, but too indecent for a usual profile/rest because of undressing, it's profile+undress or rest+undress. Unless you can come up with a better tag.

@DarkTI: That is somewhat strange. If do dildo is active and dildo anal/pussy is passive, then why is there do dildo anal/pussy as well? I think you got a little confused there yourself, a good reason to remove do dildo and do strapon and use the more precise tags instead.
Because these tags were added by Xela, just like active. Nuff said  :)
I agree that we should try to handle it a bit differently.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Pinkutako on August 18, 2014, 09:01:55 AM
Wait a second. I am aware how those tags are used. I do not want to remove all of them. But what stops you from using both those tags? What's the point in having dildo, dildo pussy and dildo anal when you could either keep the more general tag or the more precise ones. Keeping all three just makes no sense.


Optimization is all well and good, but anything that removes text to image accuracy is a bad idea.  You could use a "sextoy used" tag for something like "Orihime used a sex toy on her client." or "the client used a sex toy on Orihime."  Sure, It's easier, but boring.  with that logic you could just use "Orihime had sex." for all sex interactions.  It's just dull.
  Now, speaking as a whiny, demanding end user. ;)  It absolutely matters who is using the dildo, where they are sticking it, and how many dildos are being used.  I can appreciate the desire for clean smooth running code, but the players don't see code.  we want accurate text for the image shown.  Probably more than game speed.  It doesn't matter to me if a tag library takes 0.003 seconds to load or 40 seconds. Granted I wouldn't want it to take a 15 minutes to start the game every time, but less than a minute is fine. 

Whiny End User complete.  :P
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on August 18, 2014, 10:11:39 AM
Whiny End User complete.  :P
If it only was this easy.
One of the things to consider is, that the more detail we go into with tags, the more the changes are that many girls will don't have a picture like that. Just let's say, if of 10 prostitutes, only 1 of them have a titsjob pics, then she'll be the only one ever doing that? It works like this now, but its a bit weird thing on its own. And I'm not really fond of the idea of filling the game with default pics...
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 18, 2014, 10:44:40 AM
Guys, again: I do not want to remove details. I want to remove absolutely redundant tags.
You see the problem here? It's redundant. Why does the do strapon tag exist if there are more precise ones? The same goes for do dildo.


I don't want to remove the more precise tags. I want to remove the more general one because it's unnecessary.

By the way, why is it pussy and anal and not vaginal and anal or pussy and ass (pointless nitpicking ftw)?

Also, on the note of tag occurence: Why don't you just use a statistical approach, especially for general things like the customer gender. There are 10 male customer images for 1 female customer image, so why not have 10 times more male customers to balance it out? This could even be calculated when the tags are loaded.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 18, 2014, 10:58:43 AM
Maybe we could use structures like "dildo" + "anally" + "by girl" or "strapon" + "vaginally" + "to girl" instead. In case if dildo is not used, it's just dildo.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Pinkutako on August 18, 2014, 11:43:53 AM


If it only was this easy.One of the things to consider is, that the more detail we go into with tags, the more the changes are that many girls will don't have a picture like that. Just let's say, if of 10 prostitutes, only 1 of them have a titsjob pics, then she'll be the only one ever doing that? It works like this now, but its a bit weird thing on its own. And I'm not really fond of the idea of filling the game with default pics...
I can understand that.  I suppose I don't see the girl lacking the images as much of an issue.  Default text is something that is already in the game.  The crazy packs that exist now default to general text because they aren't tagged the same.  I like the way the game handles that now; where  if the girl doesn't have an image with the tags it defaults to a general sex image and general text.  The ones that do have a specific image like a titsjob are a bonus when the text can describe it.    If the girl doesn't have the image variety then that only makes that one girl boring compared to the rest.  I agree that default titsjob images should be avoided, or similar situations.  You don't want a dark skinned girl defaulting to a light skinned titsjob image.  Better that the game just defaults to a sex, oral, or whatever image in the girls folder; as it does now.



Guys, again: I do not want to remove details. I want to remove absolutely redundant tags.
  • do strapon
  • do strapon pussy
  • do strapon anal
You see the problem here? It's redundant. Why does the do strapon tag exist if there are more precise ones? The same goes for do dildo.



Ahh, now I see what your saying.  if you have do dildo pussy and  do dildo anal, then do dildo is meaningless. 'Cuz that dildo is damn well going somewhere.  :D


Like I have said; I'm an end user.  I don't have to the knowledge or interest in hard coding.  The structure is up to you guys.  I'm just concerned with the end result.  ;D   
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 18, 2014, 11:53:46 AM
Maybe we could use structures like "dildo" + "anally" + "by girl" or "strapon" + "vaginally" + "to girl" instead. In case if dildo is not used, it's just dildo.

We thought about something along these lines before... I think it was rejected because it was before I've added the exclude to the image lookup process. Sounds like a decent idea that would eliminate a lot tags.

Unless someone can come up with a reason not to do it this way, it is definitely worth consideration.

***

Also, on the note of tag occurence: Why don't you just use a statistical approach, especially for general things like the customer gender. There are 10 male customer images for 1 female customer image, so why not have 10 times more male customers to balance it out? This could even be calculated when the tags are loaded.
Have fun!

Maybe one day... atm there are 10 000 things I'd consider more important that need to be done.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 18, 2014, 12:03:36 PM
I wonder if we still need general tags for better sorting.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 18, 2014, 12:05:37 PM
Ahh, now I see what your saying.  if you have do dildo pussy and  do dildo anal, then do dildo is meaningless. 'Cuz that dildo is damn well going somewhere.  :D

Well... matter of debate really.

do dildo pussy = Obvious text + Virginity check.
do dildo anal = Obvious Text
do dildo = All other pics where a girl is just holding a dildo with an evil look in her eyes or shoving it in clients mouse/between tits. It would allow to write better, more precise texts. It's a matter of debate if we require that but it's far from meaningless.

**This is being handled poorly in the game atm. We need to take a look at the jobs/events after new tagging system is ready.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on August 18, 2014, 12:16:19 PM
I wonder if we still need general tags for better sorting.

Depends, we need some, something like:

"clean":  (no implicit sexual content tag)
"gm": (usable for girlsmeets)
"water_selection": (water activities related)
"indoor": (Automatically added if ANY indoor tag is picked, we could use general indoor this way I think)
"outdoor": (same)
are required.

CW is prolly more versed in both tagging and tags application than I am. Maybe he has more...

+ I don't know if we should anticipate male/futa characters as well... this is hard to say atm.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Pinkutako on August 18, 2014, 12:35:29 PM
Well... matter of debate really.

do dildo pussy = Obvious text + Virginity check.
do dildo anal = Obvious Text
do dildo = All other pics where a girl is just holding a dildo with an evil look in her eyes or shoving it in clients mouse/between tits. It would allow to write better, more precise texts. It's a matter of debate if we require that but it's far from meaningless.


Perhaps meaningless was a poor choice.  At some point in the job text that dildo is going somewhere.  I don't think you really want the job text to read something like "The girl stood over her client holding a dildo with an evil look in her eye." and then just stop there.  the image may only display that but the game text should followup on the action in those cases.  In cases where the dildo is being held like that the game can decide where it goes from there.  If anything, the old system needs more tags like do dildo tits or do dildo mouth.

DarkTi is on the right track.  a "action" + "body location" + "by/to who"  system is probably the best solution.  It also leaves room to add on conditions like "mood". 


For Example: an image of a girl holding a dildo with a neutral expression (because mood is not what we are talking about). would have the action tag "dildo" but nothing else.  This would leave it up to the game text to randomly decide where it's going and who is using it.  Or if the image shows the holding a dildo standing over a client it would have both action tag "dildo" + "by girl" and the "body location" on the client is left up to the game to decide.

Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on August 18, 2014, 01:06:07 PM
Maybe we could use structures like "dildo" + "anally" + "by girl" or "strapon" + "vaginally" + "to girl" instead. In case if dildo is not used, it's just dildo.
I planned to implement something along that lines for the new tagger. Currently, I had in mind to use what's there and just structure it a little better on the GUI without changing the internal tags (for compatibility), but if you want to make those changes internally as well... I can help.

+ I don't know if we should anticipate male/futa characters as well... this is hard to say atm.
Considering the above, this should be an easy change. Just add the character gender to the equation and adjust the displayed tags.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 07, 2014, 09:30:07 PM
Yo.
So, I'm back from summer vacation - time to get things done.

At some point in the job text that dildo is going somewhere.  I don't think you really want the job text to read something like "The girl stood over her client holding a dildo with an evil look in her eye." and then just stop there.
QFT.

a "action" + "body location" + "by/to who"  system is probably the best solution.  It also leaves room to add on conditions like "mood".
This is easy to handle on my end (the tagger). But... (@Xela) can you handle resolving it properly?
When using this approach, maybe selecting a random (sex) image and then adjusting text and stats would be a lot easier (and faster) than generating a customer and then looking for the best image. That would also solve the statistical problem I mentioned earlier.
Naturally, that only works for prostitution. For player interaction, the same approach can be used, but the gender has to be locked and there may not be a second customer, but that shouldn't be too difficult. Job and profile pictures are a different story anyway.

Possible format:
Example tag (grouped for each customer):
Example usage:
Notes:To be honest, I'm not sure if this approach is a good idea. It definitely is clean and easy to handle internally and it would decrease the amount of effort needed for detailed tagging - but on the other hand increase the effort for general tagging. I guess making the voice and the body part of the action optional would solve that issue, but that would require more general description texts as well.


What do you guys think?
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 08, 2014, 05:10:20 AM
*Welcome back :)

As I've said in the gen thread, I will not have enough time for active development in the next few month so you'll have to discuss the system with Dark/CW and maybe Thewlis/Klaus/Lemoli + any ideas from the players.

We already have tag application system which can be expended indefinetly so you don't have to worry about that.

We need to add to the tagging system:

*Generalization tags to reduce database searches triggered by "exclude" such as *sex_tag (explicit sex), *nude_tag (explicit nudity), *clean_tag (no explicit sex/nudity).
*We need to add bondage category with descriptors for ST and possible new jobs.
*We may consider adding male/futa sexes and adapting sex tags to them.

As long as tagging software allows adding tags through json/xml, we're good for expansion.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 08, 2014, 11:01:49 AM
*Welcome back :)

As I've said in the gen thread, I will not have enough time for active development in the next few month so you'll have to discuss the system with Dark/CW and maybe Thewlis/Klaus/Lemoli + any ideas from the players.
Thanks and good luck with whatever you are busy with.

We already have tag application system which can be expended indefinetly so you don't have to worry about that.
My point was that for the above proposed changes, the tag format needs to be changed. Of course I could wrap all possible combinations into an own tag, but that would be a huge amount.

*Generalization tags to reduce database searches triggered by "exclude" such as *sex_tag (explicit sex), *nude_tag (explicit nudity), *clean_tag (no explicit sex/nudity).
*We need to add bondage category with descriptors for ST and possible new jobs.
*We may consider adding male/futa sexes and adapting sex tags to them.
I took a note, but I was trying to improve the concept before dealing with these kind of things:

When using this approach, maybe selecting a random (sex) image and then adjusting text and stats would be a lot easier (and faster) than generating a customer and then looking for the best image. That would also solve the statistical problem I mentioned earlier.
This is the key part. I want to reverse the logic for sex images. Instead of generating a situation and then looking for an image, look for an image and then generate the situation from the tags (which would be easy to do with the above format).

As long as tagging software allows adding tags through json/xml, we're good for expansion.
I planned a GUI for modifying the tags in any possible way (grouping, internal tag, external name, etc.). Actually, I've already written parts of it, but then realized that I'd like to improve the format first so it's propably obsolete.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 08, 2014, 03:54:30 PM
This is the key part. I want to reverse the logic for sex images. Instead of generating a situation and then looking for an image, look for an image and then generate the situation from the tags (which would be easy to do with the above format).

Thats how we use it at the moment, we check for available images and then pick one of the options (but first we pick general category assuming there is always a pic for it or use default text/pic instead).

Note that logic in jobs is not very flexible so changing it for tags significantly might mean a complete rewrite and that's not likely to happen any time soon unless Thewlis wants to take a stab at it.

It's prolly best to keep current loading system, just expand on it a bit and create a tagger that can write to files instead of JSON.

**In the FG I utilize new method of building images from images, we can use that for many jobs in the future I expect! Like a nude/cowgirl pic + generic milking of a tit (smaller side-picture) for any potential future milk-jobs in the future for example.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 08, 2014, 08:46:25 PM
Thats how we use it at the moment, we check for available images and then pick one of the options (but first we pick general category assuming there is always a pic for it or use default text/pic instead).
Still not what I mean.  ::)
I want to avoid checking for what's available. I want to pick a random image that is tagged as sex image and then parse the sex related tags to construct the text and the resulting stat increases.
No checking. No categories. No defaults. No static choice between the available options. Take any sex image, read the tags, construct the text, add relevant stats.

Note that logic in jobs is not very flexible so changing it for tags significantly might mean a complete rewrite and that's not likely to happen any time soon unless Thewlis wants to take a stab at it.
For now, that's fine. I only want to apply the concept to sex images, to see how it turns out. But if it turns out well, a similar concept could be applied for jobs at a later point in time.



Long €dit:
I had some time on my hands today, so I decided to make a few more points so you will (hopefully) never repeat this statement again:
It's prolly best to keep current loading system, just expand on it a bit and create a tagger that can write to files instead of JSON.
You really think so? Alright then, here's why not.

Pinkutako and DarkTI have already realized it: The sex tags currently are a mess and need a better format. If you don't believe me, here is a simple example.
Imagine a situation with more than two participants in the scene. For example, an image with the tags group, two girls, do dildo, dildo pussy, dildo anal. Read the tags carefully. Notice something? You have no idea what is actually going on in the scene. The tags do not define who is doing what to whom. This problem appears for every group image and propably for several other situations as well.

You think this is not a problem? It is. Why? Because you want detailed descriptions. That is the whole point of your system. But you can't provide detailed descriptions if the tags don't indicate what's going on in the scene. You could argue that you can always use more general descriptions as a backup plan, but that's exactely what you want to avoid with your tagging approach, so please don't bring it up - you'd be shooting in your own foot.

There is a second argument that you could bring up: Why use group images? If you're honestly asking yourself that question right now, allow me to quote Xela:
LoL You tagged 15658 images and typed this... At least Dark/CW'll have a laugh :D
Read the context if you aren't familiar with it. Xela told me that prostitution images in which the prostitute isn't taking the action should be allowed because there are a lot of images with that kind of situation. While I don't necessarily agree with the relevance of that argument, it is a valid point. So using passive prostitution images is fine, but group sex is not? Not cool.


That should make it clear that an improved tag format is needed (or at least very advisable if you want to keep up with your own standards and statements). Then the next question would be: Why do I want to change the way parsing works just because the tag format gets adjusted?
To put it simple: Because the new format makes parsing the tags a lot more complex. There is a context now, which means that you'd have to consider a ton of things when looking for an appropriate image. You'd have to include and exclude so many things that I definitely wouldn't want to write the code for it.


Now the problems should be clear. But what is the alternative, the solution?
And that is better because...?Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on September 10, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
I personally think that detailed description of group pictures is too difficult to implement, maybe even impossible. There could be a dozen or more characters and each one of them could do something, while pictures from other categories don't have anything like that.

In your example we have two girls besides the character, and the character is fucked by dildo in both holes, with text like "two female customers had some fun with character_name's both holes and dildo", pardon my English. We cannot say by whom, and I have no idea what do dildo could mean here, because this is plainly a bad tag (©Xela) without 100% clear sense.

However, I doubt it's possible to clearly tag every person in group pictures, what they do and with whom. We can only use information like what they do with the girl and what the girl does with them, no matter whom exactly. And build texts as vague as possible in this regard.

I want to pick a random image that is tagged as sex image and then parse the sex related tags to construct the text and the resulting stat increases.
What if we have a pack with small amount of pictures in sex categories? Like 1-2? It's not unusual even for big enough packs.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 11:23:48 AM
I personally think that detailed description of group pictures is too difficult to implement, maybe even impossible. [...]
Definitely not impossible. My proposition allows exactely that and it includes both tagging and parsing.

What if we have a pack with small amount of pictures in sex categories? Like 1-2? It's not unusual even for big enough packs.
Then there is little choice. But that applies for the current format as well, so it's not a downside.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 10, 2014, 03:46:12 PM
Now the problems should be clear. But what is the alternative, the solution?
  • Store images per character or don't store them at all. There's no point in having a tag database for all characters, the effort for sorting out a single one is too high.
    This will reduce the amount of images that need to be checked significantly.
  • Filter all unwanted tags before choosing a sex image (for example by mood, amount of customers, etc.).
    This will avoid having potentially unfitting images.
  • Pick one of the images randomly.
    This is a very low performance operation and will guarantee that every image is statistically equal.
  • Count the amount of customers and actions and choose an appropriate frame for the text description.
    You could also just concatenate the different descriptions, but that would be boring.
  • Insert the customers and actions into the description frame.
    Given that there are multiple frames and multiple descriptions for the same situation (chosen randomly), this will guarantee a lot of diversity.

Last two I do not completely understand. First three are non issues:

Code: [Select]
>>> Timer("100042 in S", "S=set(range(100000))").timeit(number=10000)
0.0006740093231201172

(Ten thousand lookups in a set of hundred thousand items... for an item that doesn't exists. Done in less than a microsecond.)

Image lookups are not slowing us down (at all, I've timed it in a game not so long ago). I've said it before I think that recoding image database itself in PyTFall is idiotic since perfecting other code will give a far better result. Remember my ServiceJob fix after I inserted timeit modules over the whole game? Knocked 15+ seconds of a 17 seconds of calculations (a test with 1300 characters)... We'd need to make image database few million/billion times faster to get those kinds of results. It's like trying to improve upon speed of light :)

What we need now is a tagger that can write to filenames and has features Dark asked for (quick image lookup, adding new tags, decent interface, some sorting options and etc.).

You really shouldn't worry about loopup speed when thinking about tagging system, I've requested generalization tags to replace our lists to "improve performance" but it's basically me "bullshiting" myself as those lookups are too fast to even be timed properly at their current state.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on September 10, 2014, 03:52:40 PM
We lack something for the group pics?  ??? I don't have any problem describing them with current set of tags at all. And I can easilly imagine whats going on in that dildo example. Seriosly I fail to see any problem there, as it is now.

(Based on the premise that we only want to know what is happening to the focused girl and what she is doing, like dark said in green - I don't think we need to care about customers)

Can you guys post some of those troublesome pics that you have problem tagging?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
...

Look, I know you said that you don't have much time at the moment, but you could at least read my post. Taking 3 out of 6 improvements and stating that they aren't necessary is an incredibly ignorant argument.
On a side note, "recoding" the database - which actually is just a quite simple change - isn't only intended to speed things up, it's also making things more clear so everyone reading the code has an easier time. Simple object oriented programming, no witchcraft required.
/rant

We lack something for the group pics?  ??? I don't have any problem describing them with current set of tags at all. And I can easilly imagine whats going on in that dildo example. Seriosly I fail to see any problem there, as it is now.

(Based on the premise that we only want to know what is happening to the focused girl and what she is doing, like dark said in green - I don't think we need to care about customers)
Can you describe the example to me then? Without generalizations?
If so, please answer these questions:
And these are just the open questions that are directly concerning the focused character. I agree that the rest isn't as important.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 10, 2014, 05:01:03 PM
Look, I know you said that you don't have much time at the moment, but you could at least read my post. Taking 3 out of 6 improvements and stating that they aren't necessary is an incredibly ignorant argument.
/rant

*I didn't mean to start another argument.

- Speed is not an issue with current database access.
- We need a decent tagger that can write to filenames.

was what I meant to say.

**I don't think we need that kind of precision with group/bdsm pictures.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
- Speed is not an issue with current database access.
- We need a decent tagger that can write to filenames.

was what I meant to say.

**I don't think we need that kind of precision with group/bdsm pictures.
So you didn't mean to say anything that I don't already know and left out your opinion on the matter.

So we need precision everywhere, so much that a tagging system such as yours is required, but not for groups and BDSM? I've covered that argument in my post.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on September 10, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
If so, please answer these questions:
Ok, so nothing is wrong, but you just want more detail?
I can't answer those from current tags of couse, but that level of description is beyond what I consider meaningfull. (At least for group pics)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 05:12:21 PM
Ok, so nothing is wrong, but you just want more detail?
I can't answer those from current tags of couse, but that level of description is beyond what I consider meaningfull. (At least for group pics)

And why should group pictures have more general descriptions than everything else?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Thewlis on September 10, 2014, 05:28:09 PM
If so, please answer these questions:
  • Are both dildos (vaginal and anal) held by the same girl?
  • Which of the two is the character using the dildo on?
  • What position are they in? Line? Circle? 69 with one bystander?[/l]
I fail to see why any of those questions are relevant. The entire point of having images is so that you don't need to know those things. You let the image tell the specifics, then include dialogue / general observations in the text.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
I fail to see why any of those questions are relevant. The entire point of having images is so that you don't need to know those things. You let the image tell the specifics, then include dialogue / general observations in the text.

You know what is really funny? This was exactely my point not too long ago. But it was refused a few pages back when I introduced another conceptional approach. So I don't think the others will find it valid now.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 10, 2014, 05:42:38 PM
So you didn't mean to say anything that I don't already know and left out your opinion on the matter.

So we need precision everywhere, so much that a tagging system such as yours is required, but not for groups and BDSM? I've covered that argument in my post.
Have fun!

I've (mistakenly?) got an impression that you thought a system speed was in question.

I personally think that detailed description of group pictures is too difficult to implement

QFT. *(imo) It's not reasonable (time-consumption vs gameplay value).

**Can we refocus on the tagger as a piece of software (layout, features) instead of a tagging concept in itself as that seem to cause nothing but friction?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 05:46:22 PM
**Can we refocus on the tagger as a piece of software (layout, features) instead of a tagging concept in itself as that seem to cause nothing but friction?
Don't worry, I'm taking care of that.

QFT. *(imo) It's not reasonable (time-consumption vs gameplay value).
Well, I presented you an easy way to get it done that includes performance increases (no, that is not the point), more detailed and more diverse descriptions for all sex activities, more intuitive tagging and statistical equalness of all images.
And you still think it's not worth it?
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on September 10, 2014, 05:50:49 PM
And why should group pictures have more general descriptions than everything else?
Because I don't thing that detail will be important in the game and because they tend to be much more varied then some other categories? probably... Group pics are a bit diffucult compared to everything else.

Basically a guess based on
- the "rarity" of such pics on boorus (some types are more popular then others among all characters)
- the "potential" of such category for the game (something like how many uses can I imagine for it)

It's hard to tell because there is always risk that something unexpected will be added to the game later. That's why we we waited with this for the slave training concept to lessen it...But we need to stop with the detail somewhere in any case, and my personal option is that what we have for group  is fine or that we could even go with a bit less detail. That's all.

If we could implement some pointers for pack creators into the tagger, then I think it could be fine to have different deepths of detail for various categories corespondingly to they usefullnes in game, withou confusing the people that much.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 05:58:07 PM
Because I don't thing that detail will be important in the game and because they tend to be much more varied then some other categories? probably...

Basically a guess based on
- the "rarity" of such pics on boorus (some types are more popular then others among all characters)
- the "potential" of such category for the game (something like how many uses can I imagine for it)

It's hard to tell because there is always risk that something unexpected will be added to the game later. That's why we we waited with this for the slave training concept to lessen it...But we need to stop with the detail somewhere in any case, and my personal option is that what we have for group  is fine or that we could even go with a bit less detail. That's all.
Thank you. I don't fully agree, but that is the first reasonable post that doesn't just say something like "Nah we don't need it".

I think group pictures aren't even that rare. The problem is that - while searching - many aren't marked as such.
The potential for the game should be about the same as lesbian pictures (statistically speaking). It's another customer type, not more, not less.

And yes, your tagging system is based on minimizing the risk of having to retag things later on, but the current possibilities for group tags might require exactely that. The approach that I descriped is definitely more future-proof.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 10, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Well, I presented you an easy way to get it done that includes performance increases (no, that is not the point), more detailed and more diverse descriptions for all sex activities, more intuitive tagging and statistical equalness of all images.
And you still think it's not worth it?

I can't see (foresee) that I guess. Do note that we currently already getting a pool of images that fit the tags and pick randomly from that pool as it is.

Your proposals, best that I could understand them, do require somewhat significant amount of recoding of the current content and I do not mean just adjustment of tags in current lookup routines. It's something I'd prefer to avoid, especially if it can be avoided without a hit on development time.

*Going to get some zzzzs. Have fun for the rest of the night (or any tod of your timezones) :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 10, 2014, 06:28:32 PM
Your proposals, best that I could understand them, do require somewhat significant amount of recoding of the current content and I do not mean just adjustment of tags in current lookup routines. It's something I'd prefer to avoid, especially if it can be avoided without a hit on development time.

Well, I will never be able to change that, no matter how many reasons I can come up with. If you are not willing to make improvements, no improvements will be made.

While that is making me somewhat sad, it's your choice.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 11, 2014, 02:17:31 AM
Well, I will never be able to change that, no matter how many reasons I can come up with. If you are not willing to make improvements, no improvements will be made.

While that is making me somewhat sad, it's your choice.
Have fun!

We'll make improvements/changes when we see in practice what new issues and challenges are as we start retagging for group/bdsm and "!maybe!" adding futa/gay to the game.

What we do right now is not practical as more often than not, when proposals are made, they are not well understood without practical examples.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on September 11, 2014, 03:28:01 AM
Definitely not impossible. My proposition allows exactely that and it includes both tagging and parsing.
I don't understand how. It's not the best example of difficult group picture, but still please explain how are we supposed to describe it in details:
(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1410379200/thumb_a3e02b1b90757e753116ea3bc9432c87.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1410379200/a3e02b1b90757e753116ea3bc9432c87.jpg)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on September 11, 2014, 11:59:50 AM
We'll make improvements/changes when we see in practice what new issues and challenges are as we start retagging for group/bdsm and "!maybe!" adding futa/gay to the game.
I want to be honest here: That is a major problem with your development that will always slow you down and I mentioned that in one of my first posts here (remember, I told you that you should plan things through before implementing half assed solutions).

Anyway, there is no need to discuss this here. As an experienced programmer (including games) I know that it's true, if you don't think so then it's none of my business.

What we do right now is not practical as more often than not, when proposals are made, they are not well understood without practical examples.
I don't understand how. It's not the best example of difficult group picture, but still please explain how are we supposed to describe it in details:
Well, if that is your only problem...

One thing before I get to the example: I did not include any example pictures in my posts - and that was intentional. I wanted you to consider the tag example I gave you so you have to imagine the situation without looking at the picture and saying "well it's obvious".

Let's get something clear first: The example, if seen from the point of view of the black haired girl in the center, isn't just "not the best", it's the worst case scenario. Essentially, it's just a sex image with bystanders. DarkTI and CherryWood already mentioned it and I agree, I do not intend to change the idea of one focused character.

Therefore, to make it more interesting, let's assume that the main character is the guy in the picture. This could be the case either if he's the prostitute or if we add a tag to the image that defines the customer as focus (although I don't think that's necessary).

Let's start by tagging it with the current system:
group, more girls, sex, hug, others (that are irrelevant for the scene itself)
Before you complain, I do realize that the tags currently are designed for straight and lesbian sex with a female main character, but even if you add new tags (e.g. suck tits) you will have a hard time understanding what's going on in the scene.

So what do we know about the scene? There are multiple girls, any of them has sex with the focused character, any of them is hugging the main character.
That's not much. Looking for a description, you could say that it's group sex and nothing else (except for details like mood, background, etc.).

But what would the tags look like in my approach? Let's see:
[female, sex, active, vagina], [female, lick, active, tits], [female, cuddle, passive, tits], more girls, others
Again, before the complaints arise, yes, that is a lot more information. But unlike before, the tags are grouped, so the tagging effort increase is minimal, if present.

Now what do we know? There are three girls interacting with the main character, one is having sex, one is being licked, one is cuddling with him and some other girls are around without doing anything.
I think it's obvious that this is a lot more to work with. Now comes the part that (I guess) Xela cares about the most: Constructing the description.

Naturally, all these elements can be randomized (different phrasing and words), so this is a very short example.





Time for a comparison:
Harry has sex with a bunch of girls. He's being hugged and sucks a tit in the process.

In the midst of a pile of girls, Harry is fucking a girl's pussy and sucking on another female's tits while being cuddled up to a third women's tits.


So there's your much more detailed description. Since it can have several random elements, it's also a lot more diverse.
The tagging would be based on customers, so it does take a few more clicks to finish an image, but it's also a lot more intuitive.
Of course, the other advantages mentioned before still apply. And no Xela, the current system is not statistically equal. Two images with the same tags are equal, nothing more.

That being said, I have kind of given up on trying to convince you of new concepts, mostly because you are very hesitant to implement changes that aren't absolutely necessary - so you don't really need to explain your position, a simple "no" will do here. I'm a perfectionist, you're not, end of story.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on September 11, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
That being said, I have kind of given up on trying to convince you of new concepts, mostly because you are very hesitant to implement changes that aren't absolutely necessary - so you don't really need to explain your position, a simple "no" will do here. I'm a perfectionist, you're not, end of story.

Kewl!

*Should be noted that we moved to filenames in the end (wasn't necessary but preferred) :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 13, 2014, 07:27:59 AM
I made for myself a list of how tags are currently used, but maybe you may want to take a look too:

Code: [Select]
for revision: 592
(note: tags are checked from last one in Default)


School


Beauty: beauty
Combat: battle
Dance: dancer
Etiquette: etiquette
Service: maid cleaning cooking bunny waitress (Any) - main_sex_tags strip
Sex: sex anal les blowjob


Jobs general


too much dirt: profile angry
low hp to work: profile sad
too tired to work: profile sad
dead: profile
customer refuse girl: profile sad
girl refuse customer: profile angry
bad occupation: profile angry


Strip Job


no client: profile sad
chat (low AP): profile happy
learn (low AP): succes: profile happy
learn (low AP): fail: profile sad
rest (low AP): rest
strip: strip


Whore Job

(no description)
sex - bdsm mast group
sex ontop - bdsm mast group
sex doggy - bdsm mast group
sex missionary - bdsm mast group
sex onside - bdsm mast group
sex standing - bdsm mast group
sex spooning - bdsm mast group
anal - bdsm mast group
anal ontop - bdsm mast group
anal doggy - bdsm mast group
anal missionary - bdsm mast group
anal onside - bdsm mast group
anal standing - bdsm mast group
anal spooning - bdsm mast group
blowjob - deepthroat handjob footjob titsjob bukkake bdsm mast group
blowjob deepthroat - bdsm mast group
blowjob handjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob footjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob titsjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob bukkake - bdsm mast group
les - bdsm mast group
les dildo joined - bdsm mast group
les lick pussy - bdsm mast group
les do lick pussy - bdsm mast group
les lick anus - bdsm mast group
les do lick anus - bdsm mast group
les finger pussy - bdsm mast group
les caress tits - bdsm mast group
les hug - bdsm mast group
les strapon - bdsm mast group
les do strapon - bdsm mast group
lea anal strapon - bdsm mast group
les do anal strapon - bdsm mast group
les anal beads - bdsm mast group
les do anal beads - bdsm mast group
les dildo pussy - bdsm mast group
les do dildo pussy - bdsm mast group
les dildo anal - bdsm mast group
les do dildo anal - bdsm mast group

event, good security: profile
event, beaten, 1: hurt
event, beaten, 2: profile sad
event, win: profile happy


Rest Job


garden 2 (70%): rest generic outdoor forest meadow park
garden 1 (70%): rest generic outdoor forest meadow
no garden : rest
if no rest tag: profile happy
magic trait, 2 girls: profile happy
magic trait + garden - harvest: rest generic outdoor forest meadow
magic trait + rep - city walk: profile urban
magic trait, read -reading
athletic, no slave - beach: beach bikini topless - main_sex_tags
athletic, slave - exercise: exercising sport (Any)
smart genius, 2 girls: profile happy
smart genius, else - translating: reading studying (Any)
nerd + garden - strange device: rest generic outdoor forest meadow (first)
nerd, else - reading: readind studying (Any)
beauty traits big boobs, no slave - sunbathing:
beauty traits big boobs, slave - heavenly body: profile exposed beauty
nymphomaniac - self fun: mast
exibitionnist: strip exposed topless nude undress - main_sex_tags
profi maid: cleaning


Service Job


cleaning forbidden: profile
bartending: waitress maid (Any) - main_sex_tags
club waitress: bunny waitress - main_sex_tags
cleaning: maid cleaning (Any) - main_sex_tags


Guard Job


guard: battle
responded to brawl: fighting
relaxing if not brawl: rest


Fighters Guild


rest + onsen: onsen rest (Any) - main_sex_tags
rest, else: rest
training, 2 girls: battle
training: battle
exploring report: battle_sprite
cleaning: maid cleaning (Any) -main_sex_tags
bartending: waitress maid (Any) -main_sex_tag


Afterjob report


wage, +: profile happy
wage, =: profile
wage, -: profile angry
low joy: profile sad
left employment: profile sad
suicide: profile sad


Interaction


exibitionins GM: nude simple_bg (First) - main_sex_tags
sex GM: sex partner hidden (First) - scared
about job, happy: profile happy
about job, neutral: profile indifferent
about job, sad: profile sad
sex all, refuse: profile angry - nude bikini swimsuit exposed beach
sex all, refuse, slave: profile defiant - nude bikini swimsuit exposed beach
sex: sex partner hidden - beach generic outdoor
blowjob: blowjob partner hidded - beach generic outdoor
anal: anal partner hidden - beach generic outdoor
les: les - beach generic outdoor


Slave market


select: nude - main_sex_tags
store: quest - main_sex_tags


GM Locations


mage tower: generic outdoor magician miko (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection
tavern: profile (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "living room", "library", "shop", "stage", "beach", "forest","meadow", "onsen", "park", "pool", "ruin", "urban", "wilderness"]
city beach + left: bikini beach swimsuit (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"]
city beach right: bikini beach swimsuit summer (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"]
beach cafe: bikini swimsuit summer casual (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["ruin", "wilderness", "meadow", "forest", "winter"]
beach cafe main: bikini casual swimsuit summer (Any) - for_gm_selection + ["arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "library", "shop", "stage", "ruin", "wilderness", "meadow", "forest", "winter"]
arena outside: weapon arena armor battle (Any) - main_sex_tags + water_selection + ["strip", "nude", "cooking", "waitress", "musician", "singer", "studying", "hurt", "bar", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "living room", "library", "shop", "park", "fighting" , "magic"]
forest entrance: profile forest (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban", "yard"]
main street: profile - for_gm_selection + water_selection + ["forest", "meadow", "ruin", "wilderness", "arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "stage"]
city park: generic outdoor park forest meadow (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban"]
park gates: profile - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban", "forest"]


Other


girllist: profile - nude bikini swimsuit beach angry scared ecstatic
arena: fighting
portrait: portrait
battle sprite: battle_sprite


Slave Training
? (don't understand the code yet)
trainer: profile


main_sex_tags = ["sex", "anal", "les", "blowjob", "bdsm", "group", "mast"]
for_gm_selection = ["sex", "anal", "les", "blowjob", "bdsm", "group", "mast", "strip", "nude", "ripped", "battle", "cosplay", "cooking", "waitress", "musician", "singer", "studying", "hurt", "pajamas", "lingerie", "scared", "angry"]
water_selection = ["beach", "onsen", "pool", "swimsuit", "bikini"]


Unused tags:


musician
singer
ent
cumcovered
dildo
kissed
device
active
69
scissors
lashed
restrained
spanking
torture
one guy
two guys
more guys
one girl
two girls
more girls
cosplay
date
eating
gambling
healing
magic
meditating
no bg
autumn
winter
night
drunk
transformed
ripped
cat
dog
cow
dominatrix
fashionable
formal
lolita
nurse
pajamas
plugsuit
schoolgirl
sportswear
summer
confident
provocative
tired
uncertain
*another bunch of tags are used only for excluding and therefore may be not needed with better organisation
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on November 15, 2014, 06:31:11 AM
I made for myself a list of how tags are currently used, but maybe you may want to take a look too:

Code: [Select]
for revision: 592
(note: tags are checked from last one in Default)


School


Beauty: beauty
Combat: battle
Dance: dancer
Etiquette: etiquette
Service: maid cleaning cooking bunny waitress (Any) - main_sex_tags strip
Sex: sex anal les blowjob


Jobs general


too much dirt: profile angry
low hp to work: profile sad
too tired to work: profile sad
dead: profile
customer refuse girl: profile sad
girl refuse customer: profile angry
bad occupation: profile angry


Strip Job


no client: profile sad
chat (low AP): profile happy
learn (low AP): succes: profile happy
learn (low AP): fail: profile sad
rest (low AP): rest
strip: strip


Whore Job

(no description)
sex - bdsm mast group
sex ontop - bdsm mast group
sex doggy - bdsm mast group
sex missionary - bdsm mast group
sex onside - bdsm mast group
sex standing - bdsm mast group
sex spooning - bdsm mast group
anal - bdsm mast group
anal ontop - bdsm mast group
anal doggy - bdsm mast group
anal missionary - bdsm mast group
anal onside - bdsm mast group
anal standing - bdsm mast group
anal spooning - bdsm mast group
blowjob - deepthroat handjob footjob titsjob bukkake bdsm mast group
blowjob deepthroat - bdsm mast group
blowjob handjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob footjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob titsjob - bdsm mast group
blowjob bukkake - bdsm mast group
les - bdsm mast group
les dildo joined - bdsm mast group
les lick pussy - bdsm mast group
les do lick pussy - bdsm mast group
les lick anus - bdsm mast group
les do lick anus - bdsm mast group
les finger pussy - bdsm mast group
les caress tits - bdsm mast group
les hug - bdsm mast group
les strapon - bdsm mast group
les do strapon - bdsm mast group
lea anal strapon - bdsm mast group
les do anal strapon - bdsm mast group
les anal beads - bdsm mast group
les do anal beads - bdsm mast group
les dildo pussy - bdsm mast group
les do dildo pussy - bdsm mast group
les dildo anal - bdsm mast group
les do dildo anal - bdsm mast group

event, good security: profile
event, beaten, 1: hurt
event, beaten, 2: profile sad
event, win: profile happy


Rest Job


garden 2 (70%): rest generic outdoor forest meadow park
garden 1 (70%): rest generic outdoor forest meadow
no garden : rest
if no rest tag: profile happy
magic trait, 2 girls: profile happy
magic trait + garden - harvest: rest generic outdoor forest meadow
magic trait + rep - city walk: profile urban
magic trait, read -reading
athletic, no slave - beach: beach bikini topless - main_sex_tags
athletic, slave - exercise: exercising sport (Any)
smart genius, 2 girls: profile happy
smart genius, else - translating: reading studying (Any)
nerd + garden - strange device: rest generic outdoor forest meadow (first)
nerd, else - reading: readind studying (Any)
beauty traits big boobs, no slave - sunbathing:
beauty traits big boobs, slave - heavenly body: profile exposed beauty
nymphomaniac - self fun: mast
exibitionnist: strip exposed topless nude undress - main_sex_tags
profi maid: cleaning


Service Job


cleaning forbidden: profile
bartending: waitress maid (Any) - main_sex_tags
club waitress: bunny waitress - main_sex_tags
cleaning: maid cleaning (Any) - main_sex_tags


Guard Job


guard: battle
responded to brawl: fighting
relaxing if not brawl: rest


Fighters Guild


rest + onsen: onsen rest (Any) - main_sex_tags
rest, else: rest
training, 2 girls: battle
training: battle
exploring report: battle_sprite
cleaning: maid cleaning (Any) -main_sex_tags
bartending: waitress maid (Any) -main_sex_tag


Afterjob report


wage, +: profile happy
wage, =: profile
wage, -: profile angry
low joy: profile sad
left employment: profile sad
suicide: profile sad


Interaction


exibitionins GM: nude simple_bg (First) - main_sex_tags
sex GM: sex partner hidden (First) - scared
about job, happy: profile happy
about job, neutral: profile indifferent
about job, sad: profile sad
sex all, refuse: profile angry - nude bikini swimsuit exposed beach
sex all, refuse, slave: profile defiant - nude bikini swimsuit exposed beach
sex: sex partner hidden - beach generic outdoor
blowjob: blowjob partner hidded - beach generic outdoor
anal: anal partner hidden - beach generic outdoor
les: les - beach generic outdoor


Slave market


select: nude - main_sex_tags
store: quest - main_sex_tags


GM Locations


mage tower: generic outdoor magician miko (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection
tavern: profile (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "living room", "library", "shop", "stage", "beach", "forest","meadow", "onsen", "park", "pool", "ruin", "urban", "wilderness"]
city beach + left: bikini beach swimsuit (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"]
city beach right: bikini beach swimsuit summer (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["pool", "onsen", "winter"]
beach cafe: bikini swimsuit summer casual (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + ["ruin", "wilderness", "meadow", "forest", "winter"]
beach cafe main: bikini casual swimsuit summer (Any) - for_gm_selection + ["arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "library", "shop", "stage", "ruin", "wilderness", "meadow", "forest", "winter"]
arena outside: weapon arena armor battle (Any) - main_sex_tags + water_selection + ["strip", "nude", "cooking", "waitress", "musician", "singer", "studying", "hurt", "bar", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "living room", "library", "shop", "park", "fighting" , "magic"]
forest entrance: profile forest (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban", "yard"]
main street: profile - for_gm_selection + water_selection + ["forest", "meadow", "ruin", "wilderness", "arena", "bathroom", "bedroom", "classroom", "kitchen", "stage"]
city park: generic outdoor park forest meadow (Any) - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban"]
park gates: profile - for_gm_selection + all_indoor_tags + water_selection + ["urban", "forest"]


Other


girllist: profile - nude bikini swimsuit beach angry scared ecstatic
arena: fighting
portrait: portrait
battle sprite: battle_sprite


Slave Training
? (don't understand the code yet)
trainer: profile


main_sex_tags = ["sex", "anal", "les", "blowjob", "bdsm", "group", "mast"]
for_gm_selection = ["sex", "anal", "les", "blowjob", "bdsm", "group", "mast", "strip", "nude", "ripped", "battle", "cosplay", "cooking", "waitress", "musician", "singer", "studying", "hurt", "pajamas", "lingerie", "scared", "angry"]
water_selection = ["beach", "onsen", "pool", "swimsuit", "bikini"]


Unused tags:


musician
singer
ent
cumcovered
dildo
kissed
device
active
69
scissors
lashed
restrained
spanking
torture
one guy
two guys
more guys
one girl
two girls
more girls
cosplay
date
eating
gambling
healing
magic
meditating
no bg
autumn
winter
night
drunk
transformed
ripped
cat
dog
cow
dominatrix
fashionable
formal
lolita
nurse
pajamas
plugsuit
schoolgirl
sportswear
summer
confident
provocative
tired
uncertain
*another bunch of tags are used only for excluding and therefore may be not needed with better organisation

This is very useful, well done.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on November 15, 2014, 08:22:42 AM
Hi!
I made for myself a list of how tags are currently used, but maybe you may want to take a look too:
Thanks, good job.

I know I said that I don't want to take part in concept discussions anymore - so this is not part of the discussion, feel free to ignore it.
Anyway, I can't help but notice two things right away:
First, you told me several times how well thought out your current tags are and that you want to expand rather than reduce the tag set, yet there are 51 completely unused tags, not counting the ones only used for exclusion.
Second, you told me several times that the mood tags are used in several different places without profile, yet I found only a single occasion where that is actually the case. Assuming that CherryWood's list is complete, you outright lied to me.

Before you rant that the game is far from complete and that everything will be fine in the final version: Yes, whatever you say. But the tags might need a little more work than you want to admit.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on November 15, 2014, 08:58:12 AM
Any update on the new tagger?
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on November 15, 2014, 09:05:59 AM
I'm currently experimenting with some advanced interface components (the portrait selection in an existing image for example).

I haven't coded the character editor yet (imports from data.xml, .girlsx, .rgirlsx and .json, editor UI and export to .json), but that's pretty much the only big part that isn't done yet (where done means coded, not tested).
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on November 15, 2014, 09:39:22 AM
I'm currently experimenting with some advanced interface components (the portrait selection in an existing image for example).

I haven't coded the character editor yet (imports from data.xml, .girlsx, .rgirlsx and .json, editor UI and export to .json), but that's pretty much the only big part that isn't done yet (where done means coded, not tested).
Have fun!

You can prolly skip the editor (for now), it's too early as a lot is bound to change.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 15, 2014, 10:21:02 AM
Before you rant that the game is far from complete and that everything will be fine in the final version: Yes, whatever you say. But the tags might need a little more work than you want to admit.
Dunno...

I would actually say that only thing in dire need of decision will be how to tag group and bdsm categories (and that could be solved as simple as saying that "group"+"sex"+"anal" = DP pic, with no need to change anything in that case), and maybe some helper tags like "service" (cause just "bunny" or "maid" outfits gives unpleasant results like battle maids or too ecchi pics sometimes). All other stuff seems to be just minor issues that we might want to improve (or simplify), but not much happen if we don't.



Codewise the system to check tags and display images seem to be fine. I'm only thinking about replacing all the simple instances like:
Code: [Select]
self.show("profile","happy", resize=(500, 600))With something like:
Code: [Select]
self.show("profile", "indifferent", "happy", exclude=["scared", "angry"],resize=(500, 600))to display more acceptable pics in case first one is not found.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on November 15, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
...
Codewise the system to check tags and display images seem to be fine. I'm only thinking about replacing all the simple instances like:
Code: [Select]
self.show("profile","happy", resize=(500, 600))With something like:
Code: [Select]
self.show("profile", "indifferent", "happy", exclude=["scared", "angry"],resize=(500, 600))to display more acceptable pics in case first one is not found.

I was planning to automatically apply "mood" tags unless such behavior is not desired. Don't replace this stuff (yet). I'll add simplified version of the system soon.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 15, 2014, 12:21:59 PM
I was planning to automatically apply "mood" tags unless such behavior is not desired. Don't replace this stuff (yet). I'll add simplified version of the system soon.
Ok  :)
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 05, 2014, 11:50:03 AM
Alright, let's do it. Let's recall basics for a start.

Profile - when a girl does nothing, or something insignificant that doesn't matter much. Pictures that you usually can see in girl's profile.
- beauty: for beauty school and similar activities; sometimes it can be used with profile tag, sometimes not, it's up to pack maker.
- etiquette: same for etiquette school and similar activities.
- girl_meets: pictures that are supposed be used when you meet girls outdoors. Not every picture could be used for that, things like sitting on invisible chairs or lying characters probably should not have this tag. Perhaps we should change it to meets or meetings.
- date: profile pictures that allow you to assume that the girl there is on a date. Like, she is holding someone's hand, happily looking, etc. Quite vague, but still could be used for actual dates.
- battle - for pictures that could be used at arena, after exploration ,etc. Ie when a character is ready for combat, but not actually fighting.

Battle_sprite - specific pictures that are used in BE.
Portrait - nuff said.

Sex - any type of sexual activity.
- equipment: anal toy, dildo, device, random item, strapon
- partner: one/two/three/more girls/guys, partner hidden
Let's leave other sex tags for now and decide what to do with other tags.

Tags that exist regardless of main tags.
- Emotions: angry, confident, defiant, ecstatic, happy, indifferent, sad, scared, shy, in pain, tired, uncertain
- Places: arena, bar, bathroom, beach, classroom, dungeon, forest, generic indoor, generic outdoor, kitchen, library, living room, meadow, onsen, park, pool, road, ruin, shop, stage, urban

- Clothes: armor, bikini, bunny, casual, cat, cosplay, cow, dog, dominatrix, exposed (not actually nude or topless, but not "safe for work" either), fashionable, formal, lingetie, lolita, magician, maid, miko, nude, nurse, pajamas, plugsuit, ripped, schoolgirl, sportswear, swimsuit, topless, transformed

- Time: autumn, evening, night, summer, winter - should be used to exclude obviously inappropriate by time pictures.

- Actions: cleaning, cooking, dancer, eating, exercising, fighting, gambling, healing, hurt, magic, musician, reading, rest, shopping, singer, sport, studing, undress, waitress, striptease
There are a lot of pictures for shower and bath. We need some general tag for them too, but I'm not sure which one.

- Backgrounds: no bg, simple bg

Did I miss something so far? Anyone want to add something? It's been awhile, I'm sure I forgot something.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: Xela on December 05, 2014, 01:30:58 PM
- girl_meets: pictures that are supposed be used when you meet girls outdoors. Not every picture could be used for that, things like sitting on invisible chairs or lying characters probably should not have this tag. Perhaps we should change it to meets or meetings.

You misunderstood why me and CW requested this. girlsmeets tag should simply state that a pic is usable for girlsmeets, it should not suggest that it's outside. We'll handle locations with other tags.

Girlsmeets seem like a large concept in the game that we've put quite a bit of time and effort into, it makes sense to have a tag to make them better.

- date: profile pictures that allow you to assume that the girl there is on a date. Like, she is holding someone's hand, happily looking, etc. Quite vague, but still could be used for actual dates.

If we made a decision to use full sized sprites supported by portraits, this we no longer need. I think that it makes sense to use this format for any future dates as well.

- Places: arena, bar, bathroom, beach, classroom, dungeon, forest, generic indoor, generic outdoor, kitchen, library, living room, meadow, onsen, park, pool, road, ruin, shop, stage, urban

This could prolly be simplified. Tags like these have also proven to be very difficult to impossible to use in the game correctly.

============
Otherwise, you guys can decide for yourselves. Tagging system is working fairly well already and I am not quite sure what should be done to simplify/complicate things. It depends on far to many factors.

You can start a new thread if you like, to keep track of decisions we make in the front post.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 05, 2014, 02:50:54 PM
Alright, let's try it with sex tags.

For bdsm:
- dominant, when the girl is on dominant side. Such pictures exist, but they are quite rare. So perhaps we don't need it.
- restrained and suspended, both are very common.
- whipped and spanked, quite common and useful for ST.
- leashed, quite common too.
- torturing, suffers pain except whips and spanking.
- forced orgasm, even though we could use restrained+ecstatic or something, it's not exactly the same, since it can be done without partners or even without restraining.

I thought about rape before, but it's just sex tag+sad/angry.

For sex:
Sex poses: 69, doggy, missionary, onside, ontop, scissors, sitting,  spooning, standing.
Additional tag: deepthroat (only for blowjob actions)

Now I'm not sure if we should use that approach with body zones, like vaginal, oral, etc. proposed by livingforever, or stick to our old system.

For group:
group is basically any sex tag + more than 1 partner. Often it's difficult to describe resulting pose, so we avoid it.  We still could use sex action and zones tags to describe in general what's going on with the girl. Ie in case of double penetration we take vaginal+anal. If she also uses her hands, we throw handjob too.
Group pictures have one subtag: bukkake.

Most sex pictures have one general tag: cum covered. It requires no partner, and it's a universal tag, since almost anything could happen with the girl before she became like this. So it could be used in many cases if there is no a better picture.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on December 05, 2014, 06:21:15 PM
Now I'm not sure if we should use that approach with body zones, like vaginal, oral, etc. proposed by livingforever, or stick to our old system.
That was part of the skill discussion and is not necessarily related to tags.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 06, 2014, 06:06:32 AM
It's usually obvious it case of straight sex who does what. So if we use one simple "oral" tag, it means usual blowjob.
Now in case of lesbian actions it's not so simple, since multiple actions could be done in the same time. Same could be said about groups.

Perhaps we could handle it via tagging software, if it would allow to create several describing phrases, with the help of several drop-down menus for example.
So it's:
1) active/passive, fuck or be fucked. I don't really share Xela's idea about those tags, so we could use them here.
2) partner, male/female.
3) action type, anal/oral/vaginal/hand/foot
4) (otional) toys

So if we have two phrases: 1)passive+female+vaginal+strapon 2)active+female+oral+vaginal, it means les action where the character is fucked by strapon while licking (somehow) her partner's vagina.

It would allow us to describe even group actions more or less accurate.
It doesn't exclude tags like one/two/three/more guys, since not everyone can participate in the current action.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: livingforever on December 06, 2014, 07:25:38 AM
Hi!
Perhaps we could handle it via tagging software, if it would allow to create several describing phrases, with the help of several drop-down menus for example.
Done. Not with dropdowns, but the concept is easy to implement with what is already implemented.

It doesn't exclude tags like one/two/three/more guys, since not everyone can participate in the current action.
Done as long as the actions don't need to be assigned to the acting characters (which can't be handled with the current tagging concept anyway).
Have fun!
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 06, 2014, 08:50:57 AM
There is one uncertainty remains.
This construction [1)passive+female+vaginal+strapon 2)active+female+oral+vaginal] clearly describes les action, but if we describe a group action, you can't say what's going on exactly. She can lick anyone, and anyone could use strapon. I'm not sure how to handle it. Perhaps we shouldn't try to handle it at all.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 07, 2014, 04:31:46 AM
I gave it some thought, in case of group actions it's probably enough to specify partners and used character's body parts.
Title: Re: Image tagging concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 08, 2014, 06:10:04 AM
I couldn't force myself to get rid of emotion tags. Some of them are more common, but all of them are not rare. And there are many cases when you cannot describe a picture without one of currently existing tags.

As for places tags, I propose:
- beach (very common);
- nature (meaning forest/meadow/anything else with plants and stuff, also park goes here, since even when you can the difference, it's not very important),
- wildness (caves, rocks, etc. ie anything outside of city that is not nature),
- bathroom, pool and onsen we replace with bath action tag+generic indoor/outdoor+clothes tags,
- classroom is an overkill when we have school uniform tag,
- living room for all rooms that look suitable for living, and generic indoor for others,
- city and road for main urban outdoor pics, and generic outdoor for others.
- even though stage tag is pretty rare, it also will help to exclude generally unsuitable pictures that still could be used for jobs and events.

I'll think about clothes tags, we probably have too many either.