devolution

Author Topic: <-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept  (Read 173371 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2013, 02:48:31 PM »
I'd say let's remove cute and add beauty and etiquette and start full-scale tagging. Without blush (an overkill, I think).

Oki, tell me when any girl with decent amount of pics is done, I wanna try loading new tags into the game and see what we can do with them. There is also quite a bit of work to be done for proper sorting and fallbacks. I guess it'll be one step at a time as usual.

For now, I'll see if I can put couple of hours into Arena tonight, it's been sitting on a shelf for a couple of days now.

=================================
Link:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43556362/IT-PyTFall%20edition.rar
Like what we're doing?

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2013, 02:54:33 PM »
So, should I use one guy/one girl tags for "standard" sex/anal pics?

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2013, 03:31:38 PM »
So, should I use one guy/one girl tags for "standard" sex/anal pics?

Yeap, better compatibility with other games and we have no idea if WM system is actually better than straight approach. Lets add it for bj/sex/anal just in case if it's not to much trouble.
Like what we're doing?

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2013, 03:37:18 PM »
What's the difference between mood1 and mood2?

I think I'll tag one girl for a start and upload it, you will take a look then and tell me if something is wrong.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2013, 03:41:15 PM »
What's the difference between mood1 and mood2?

I think I'll tag one girl for a start and upload it, you will take a look then and tell me if something is wrong.

I expect that there is no difference, I though that there might be some crazy picture where two moods might be applicable.
Like what we're doing?

Offline CherryWood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 643
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2013, 04:07:59 PM »
Did you guys try tagging some images? Do we need any more tags or should something be removed/adjusted?
Not yet, but if that's what we need now, then I try to quickly tag at least some when I get home and write my option.
------------------
I have found at least one Yukata pic for most girls, so I think it's worth its own outfit tag?
-----------------
I don't see mood2 in latest version.... EDIT *I see it now, sorry!*
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:33:39 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2013, 04:21:07 PM »
Current interface is unacceptable. Way too many tags, I tagged like 25 pics for half a hour.
Of course, it will be faster when I'll get used to it, but it still will take days to tag big packs.

Tagger need some kind of tabs. If I'm tagging profile pic, I don't need two dozen of sex subtags (even if I do, it will be rare, and in such rare cases I will select sex subtags tab), and vice versa.
For example, "background" tab with no bg, simple bg, night, winter, autumn, indoor, outdoor.

sex|les|anal|profile|background|clothing|etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
|X no bg                       indoor: living room       |
|O simple bg                outdoor: _______        |
|O night                                                            |
|O winter                                                          |
|X autumn                                                         |
|____________________________________|

Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.

Oh, and do we need accurate tags like library or stairs?

I don't see mood2 in latest version....
I downloaded the last version with Xela link, there is mood2 far to the right.

I expect that there is no difference, I though that there might be some crazy picture where two moods might be applicable.
Then for mood we need mood2 panel only.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:29:02 PM by DarkTl »

Offline rudistoned

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2013, 04:51:50 PM »
Tagger need some kind of tabs.
My development version already has them :)
I also moved the tag editor into the middle and the image viewer into a dockable window, as requested by Xela.

Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.
I know, tagging the clothing eats a lot of time. What I usually do when I start tagging a new bunch of pics is to just add the style tag and ignore all other clothing tags. That gives the game a basic idea what kind of clothing the girl is wearing. Later, when all the more important tags are in place, I go over the images a second time and add the clothing tags.

In general, tagging like this is a slower approach to image pack making, but you also get a lot more information about the images than just a general category. IMHO it's worth the trade off.

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2013, 05:03:06 PM »
My development version already has them :)
I also moved the tag editor into the middle and the image viewer into a dockable window, as requested by Xela.
Now that's the version I want to work with  :)


Btw, is it possible to customise interface? For example, we use scissors tag for tribadism to avoid mistakes among modders, but can I somehow change its name to tribadism in interface only for my own convenience?

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2013, 05:10:58 PM »
Current interface is unacceptable. Way too many tags, I tagged like 25 pics for half a hour.
Of course, it will be faster when I'll get used to it, but it still will take days to tag big packs.

It'll get a lot faster with experience I expect.

Let me explain to you what happened. When I saw this software for the first time (original layout version), one of the most inconvenient things seemed to be that on normal laptop screen, tagger would have to scroll sideways to get to some of the common tags. So before there is a version with some sort of solution to that problem, I've decided to put all tags that I felt would tag 99.5% of PyTFall's pictures in the sight of a laptop screen with a common resolution or any screen larger than that. Assuming you use the same window layout as in my pics.

Tagger need some kind of tabs. If I'm tagging profile pic, I don't need two dozen of sex subtags (even if I do, it will be rare, and in such rare cases I will select sex subtags tab), and vice versa.
For example, "background" tab with no bg, simple bg, night, winter, autumn, indoor, outdoor.

sex|les|anal|profile|background|clothing|etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
|X no bg                       indoor: living room       |
|O simple bg                outdoor: _______        |
|O night                                                            |
|O winter                                                          |
|X autumn                                                         |
|____________________________________|

No bg and autumn should be incompatible tags  ???

I understand what you're saying but even if Rudi adds tabs to the software at some point, it might become even harder to remember where the tags are. Also don't forget that with time, we may not even rename pics anymore so you will not have the convenience of pictures in by name categories. Tabs in such case will drive you nuts.


Secondly, detailed dress tags will take too much time. One thing is to select nude/casual/whatever from the list, another is describe every little thing. First part of Touhou pack has 1800 pics, I'll go crazy before I'll tag them all.

We've discussed this with CW in one of the previous posts and decided not to bother with it. Basically all tags in third large column called detail, are optional and might not be useful to PyTFall at all or at least not until a very late stage of development, they just remain from the original version (mood excluded but we have that already). We've decided not to bother with spectators if I recall.

Oh, and do we need accurate tags like library or stairs?

I am not sure... the thing is that lately I've been thinking that for events that require such detailed precision, it might be faster to clear backgrounds from 4 - 5 decent profile pics per girl and use those on a background of a library or stairs. For sex events, especially during jobs, I'd say only non residential tag would be useful to avoid obviously out of place pics. So it's just another decision that we have to make... on the other hand, if we are going to tag inside images, we might as well do it right?

@CW:

If you want me to make an event based on Yakata or use it yourself, I'll add it to styles.
Like what we're doing?

Offline DarkTl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4737
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2013, 05:35:52 PM »
We still don't need two moods. Either mutually exclusive list or multimood panel.

No bg and autumn should be incompatible tags  ???

I understand what you're saying but even if Rudi adds tabs to the software at some point, it might become even harder to remember where the tags are. Also don't forget that with time, we may not even rename pics anymore so you will not have the convenience of pictures in by name categories. Tabs in such case will drive you nuts.
Let's say it's a backgroundless picture with a couple of autumn yellow leaves flying around girl  :)

As for tabs, that's a subjective thing. The software I'm often working with uses tabs very actively, so I get used to them.
I guess I'll finish Alice from Touhou for testing purposes, but I'd like to have tabs version before full-scale tagging. It will save a lot of time.

Offline CherryWood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 643
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2013, 05:40:49 PM »
Ok, I just started and I don't understand a few things right of the bat:

What is active/passive? (I got lost in the discussion about it earlier)
What is the difference between on side and spooning positions?
May I also tag this as POV?
Artistic BGs are supposed to be tagless? (as they are neither simple, nor showing anything)
Do we want mood tags for sex pics too?


If you want me to make an event based on Yukata or use it yourself, I'll add it to styles.
Summer festival where these are worn was in almost every romantic VN or anime I have seen... but I really doubt I will ever made event like that.
In girlpacks, I was using these mostly for etiquette category.
--------------

I suggest to move topless from style1, to style2, so it can be combined with other outfits.
Also to remove panties (could be lingerie+topless) and witch (magician should be enough)
Rename bloomers to gym clothes (better name for a style)

I would add Yukata and Santa costume instead.

There are some tags that have original "learn" equivalent (singer x learn singing...). I think we should hide those in out version to avoid confusion.

---------------

While not perfect yet for sure, I don't really mind anything on our current layout that much.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:27:09 PM by CherryWood »

Offline rudistoned

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2013, 05:55:26 PM »
Plan was to use the categories, yes. Like I've said, our whole tagging strategy will revolve around those... I'd love to hear the sorting strategies but I am not sure how much I trust Pytherworld's fallbacks at it's stage of development and testing.
Yeah, I'd also rather fix my own bugs than someone elses...
You should know though that dynamic image selection based on tags has always been to core development effort in Pytherworld. The current system is the fourth or fifth major iteration/rewrite. It's not untested any more. I do concede that heavier usage will surely bring many solvable problems to the surface, but I'm confident that the basic approach will work. I have used this code with a database of about 15000 images and 180000 tags.

Now, let me take you through the process of selecting an image for a task in Pytherworld in order to explain the sorting strategy at work.

Selecting an image for a task in Pytherworld

Each image search starts with the complete database of images. Steps 1-3 are filtering steps that drastically reduce the size of the database. Steps 4-6 are concerned with sorting the remaining images according to how well they match the ingame situation.

1) In the first step, most images are excluded from the database to narrow down the search. This is done by removing all images that do not have a main character with the same race and hair color as the girl performing the task we want to find an image for.

2) Tasks may specify tags that must be on the image displaying the task. These are called required tags. All images that do not carry all required tags are removed from the database.

3) Tasks may also specify tags that must not be on the image displaying the task. These are called excluded tags. All images that carry any excluded tag are removed from the database.

Now our goal is to sort all remaining images according to how well they represent the task we want to visualize.

4) Our first consideration are the looks of the girl performing the task. We will create a dictionary that contains all tags that can be used to describe the looks of a character and assign each tag a score between -500 and +500, depending on how similar that tag is to the looks of the girl. Example:
Our girl has light blonde hair. The tag "lightblonde hair" will get +500. "darkblonde hair" will get +400. "black hair" will get -500 and so on.

5) At this point, the image ranking rules specified by the task, the scoring tags, come into play. Every task may provide a dictionary of tags and scores which reflects that some tags may be nice to have but are not essential (positive score), while others should probably not be on the task image, but are no dealbreakers either (negative score).
The scoring tags are combined with the dictionary from 4) to create the scoringdict. Using this dict, we can calculate a score from the tags on each image and therefore rank all images according to how well they reflect our task and girl.

6) Based on the ranking performed in 5), we would like to select an image that reflects our task well. The best match is the image with the highest score, but always choosing the same image is boring. We don't know how many other good images there are, so we want a selection of images with high scores to choose from. To that end, we take the scoredict and calculate the maximal score that can theoretically be achieved in this ranking. Then we reduce the maximal score by a user-defined percentage (5 to 25% are useful values) and get a threshold score that each image must reach to get into the final selection. If no image reaches the threshold, we know our search did not yield any good matches and can take countermeasures or just lower the threshold. Another possible route is to start a search for a profile image, which is the fallback strategy used in Pytherworld.

7) From our final selection of nicely matching images we simply take the ten with the highest score and randomly pick one.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:21:19 PM by rudistoned »

Offline rudistoned

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2013, 06:01:12 PM »
Now that's the version I want to work with  :)
I know. I'd like to get a few additional changes in before I release a new version though. A release usually eats up all the spare time I have for a day.

Btw, is it possible to customise interface? For example, we use scissors tag for tribadism to avoid mistakes among modders, but can I somehow change its name to tribadism in interface only for my own convenience?
Of course it's possible, but it will surely create confusing configuration options and general confusion about the real "value" of a tag. I doubt it's a good idea to be honest.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Image tagging concept
« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2013, 06:29:01 PM »
What is active/passive? (I got lost in the discussion about it earlier)

Two meanings:

1) From earlier post (normal sex pics):

Quote
"active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the mc participating in ANY WAY in the act or just does nothing but getting fucked.

Active Anal
Passive Anal

2) group and bdsm:

"active" - Would mean that the girl is doing the punishment (acting out the act).

"passive" - Most pics will be like this, girl is taking the punishment or having bdsm/group act performed to her.

What is the difference between on side and spooning positions?

Spooning = they both lie vertically
onside = girl is on the side, guy is standing, kneeling.


May I also tag this as POV?

If I understood Rudi correctly, yes. But it's what I've called "partner hidden" so we might use both or just one tag.


Artistic BGs are supposed to be tagless? (as they are neither simple, nor showing anything)

Yes, it's implied.


Do we want mood tags for sex pics too?

Yes and especially "indifferent", "ecstatic" and so on. I think I can use them in brothel events. If nothing applies, don't tag them with mood tags.

I suggest to move topless from style1, to style2, or remove it completely as we have exposed tag here that could mean the same.

Remove it might be an overkill, topless pics we can most likely find use for...

- move topless

Also to remove panties (doesn't make sense) and witch (magician should be enough) styles
I would add Yukata and Santa costume instead.

- remove witch

- add santa
- add yukata
Like what we're doing?