PyTFall > PyTFall: Game design

New image tagging concept

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DarkTl:

--- Quote from: livingforever on December 12, 2014, 02:48:23 PM ---You're not introducing a new concept, you just made some changes to the tags. It doesn't make a difference for the topic, but misleading titles are never a good thing.
--- End quote ---
It is a new thread about image tagging concept. I can't believe you actually want to discuss something as minor as another temporary thread's name.


--- Quote from: livingforever on December 12, 2014, 02:48:23 PM ---   

* Whenever this phrase applies it is generally a bad thing because it means that the tag is not distinct enough (e.g. beauty, etiquette, girlmeets, fashionable).
* Quest - Your description says that there shouldn't be much difference to a portrait... so why is it there in the first place?
* Emotions - I can't really see an obvious difference between confident and happy and between shy and uncertain.
* Bunny, cat, cow, dog - All unified as cosplay, is it necessary to be more detailed?
* Pyjamas, nurse, maid, sportswear, ... - Those essentially describe actions, not clothing, therefore the action tag should be enough (how a character dresses for the particular action isn't relevant, is it).
* Actions - Redundancy with clothing, see above.
* Sex equipment - Dildos and strapons are sex toys, sex toys are devices, devices are items. I don't think that a generalization hierarchy is how these tags should be handled.
* Deepthroat - Very detailed and somewhat hard to determine for most pictures.
* Group - Still has the problem that active and passive are being mixed together. Wether that is acceptable or not depends on how detailed you want to descripe the pictures on the front end.[/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l][/l]
--- End quote ---
1. We cannot adapt pictures, so we should adapt tags somehow instead.
I'm not sure about casual/fashionable/formal tags too, at very least we need better rules here. But I simply cannot describe etiquette and girlmeet tags better. If you can write better descriptions, feel free to do so.
3. I can, they are used in my packs, you can look at them. Emotion tags are not mutually exclusive btw. In fact, they still don't cover everything (like madness, very common for yandere).
4. I guess. They are pretty rare anyway.
5. Not always. There are plenty of actions you can do in pyjamas or nurse outfit, not just sleep or heal. Usually sexual actions, but not always.
7. Device means something other than didlos and strapons, random item means things that are not designed for sex at all. If you have better names, I'll change it.
9. I know. But I have no idea how to handle it better than just ignore some details. It's not like I don't want to desribe them.

Sprites, battle sprites and no bg tags:
- I changed quest to sprite. Sprites should be visually compatible with portraits.
- Battle sprites are used in BE, and only there. Might as well use a special tag for them.
- No_bg pictures are not equal to sprites. There are even nude/striptease pictures without bg, you simply cannot use them everywhere, especially with portraits.




@Xela, you can close the old thread, just don't delete it. And stick this one instead.[/list]

Xela:

--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 13, 2014, 07:45:23 AM [email protected], you can close the old thread, just don't delete it. And stick this one instead.

--- End quote ---

Done.

livingforever:
Hi!

--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 13, 2014, 07:45:23 AM ---It is a new thread about image tagging concept. I can't believe you actually want to discuss something as minor as another temporary thread's name.
1. We cannot adapt pictures, so we should adapt tags somehow instead.
I'm not sure about casual/fashionable/formal tags too, at very least we need better rules here. But I simply cannot describe etiquette and girlmeet tags better. If you can write better descriptions, feel free to do so.
--- End quote ---
No idea about etiquette because I still don't know what it's supposed to express.
Girlmeet is actually just a profile picture with attention focus on the player, so attentive or something similar would fit.


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 13, 2014, 07:45:23 AM ---Emotion tags are not mutually exclusive btw.
--- End quote ---
That is a problem. Tags describing the same part of the picture with the same level of detail should always be mutually exclusive. That is not something that I just came up with, it's a psychological issue. If there's more than one choice you will almost never get usable results.
And yes, I did confirm that with your packs.


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 13, 2014, 07:45:23 AM ---5. Not always. There are plenty of actions you can do in pyjamas or nurse outfit, not just sleep or heal. Usually sexual actions, but not always.
--- End quote ---
And in those cases it really matters what clothes the character is wearing?


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 13, 2014, 07:45:23 AM ---7. Device means something other than didlos and strapons, random item means things that are not designed for sex at all. If you have better names, I'll change it.
--- End quote ---
It's not about the names, it's about the strange generalization.
The best thing would propably be to have a sex toy tag and an other item tag and remove all others.
Have fun!

Xela:

--- Quote from: livingforever on December 13, 2014, 03:01:34 PM ---!No idea about etiquette because I still don't know what it's supposed to express.
Girlmeet is actually just a profile picture with attention focus on the player, so attentive or something similar would fit.

--- End quote ---

These two are a bit offbase...

There are three approaches to tagging in games similar to ours:

*1 "Profile" pic and x amount of sex pics without tags (SimBro 1x, MisBro)
*Specific tags for each character (SM series, partly OW)
*Tags for each picture (WM, most SimBro games)

And than there is our system designed by Rudi that very thoroughly tags the pictures in attempt to pick the best possible option for each event... originally the lookup process was supposed to give a "weight" for every tag (default 100, no limits). I decided not to do that because that seemed difficult to code (at my skilllevel 2 years ago) and hard to debug so we went with simpler approach (I think I've described it already).

etiquette for example is a picture of characters showing skill in, knowledge of or otherwise displaying high society behavior or an action that can be associated with it.

It can be a very well (expensive) dressed character in a beautiful room, or character that shows courtesy, or a well dressed character having a tea from a nice cup and etc. These are used during etiquette training (skills in refinement) or during jobs that we do not yet have. This is a "base" tag that is enriched by other tags like mood, dancing, service and etc...

Girlsmeets we can prolly do without especially if we go with the "sex", "clean", "nude" prime tags. *Note here that we should prolly have no_cloth tag if we don't already have one.


--- Quote from: livingforever on December 13, 2014, 03:01:34 PM ---That is a problem. Tags describing the same part of the picture with the same level of detail should always be mutually exclusive. That is not something that I just came up with, it's a psychological issue. If there's more than one choice you will almost never get usable results.

--- End quote ---

I am not sure that is true:

confident, defiant

angry, defiant

sad, scared

tired, uncertain

are in no way mutually exclusive. In fact, a very common picture is that of a tired and confident character after a battle has been won... We are not using this a lot atm so I am not sure how it will play out in practice. One thing I can tell that even a simple "sad", "happy", "indifferent" auto lookup I've added is working out really well. One can see girls mood just by looking at picture, it's a huge improvement already.


--- Quote from: livingforever on December 13, 2014, 03:01:34 PM ---And in those cases it really matters what clothes the character is wearing?

--- End quote ---

ATM: No, writing events like that is something we cannot afford with dev team of our size. It's impossible to say what will happen in few years from now.

Xela:

--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 12, 2014, 09:15:24 AM ---Profile - when a girl does nothing, or something insignificant that doesn't matter much. Pictures that you usually can see in girl's profile every turn.
- beauty: tag for beauty school and similar activities, like applying makeup before a mirror; sometimes it can be used with profile tag, sometimes not, it's up to pack maker.
- etiquette: same for etiquette school and similar activities.
- girlmeets: this tag states that a picture is usable for girlsmeets. Not every picture could be tagged with it, things like sitting on invisible chairs or lying characters probably should not have this tag.
- battle - for pictures that could be used at arena, after exploration ,etc. Ie when a character is ready for combat or for example has a weapon, but not actually fighting.

--- End quote ---

We could review profile and girlsmeets tags...


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 12, 2014, 09:15:24 AM ---Battle_sprite - specific pictures that are used in BE. They should be backgroundless.

Sprite - characters portraits without backgrounds. Widely used, ideally there should be 1 portrait per emotion. Also ideally either clothes should be the same, or they should not be seen.

--- End quote ---

battle_sprite is solid.

Sprite is a bit odd. It means the same thing as "portrait".


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 12, 2014, 09:15:24 AM ---Quest - full sized pictures without background that suit portraits. Meaning that ideally there shouldn't be much difference in clothes between quest and portrait pictures if portraits display clothes.
We don't need many, but we need at least one.

Tags that could exist regardless of other tags.
- Emotions: angry, confident, defiant, ecstatic, happy, indifferent, sad, scared, shy, tired, uncertain.

- Places:
- beach;
- nature (meaning forest/meadow/anything else with plants and stuff, things park go here, since even when you can the difference, it's not very important in the game);
- wildness (caves, rocks, etc. ie anything outside of city that cannot use nature tag);
- living room (for all rooms that look suitable for living, and generic indoor for others);
- city (for urban outdoor pics);
- stage; this tag is pretty rare, but it will help to exclude generally unsuitable pictures that still could be used for jobs and events;
- generic indoor and generic outdoor for all others that are not suitable for above-mentioned tags.

--- End quote ---

Quest: (We wanted to rename this to Sprite?) Same clothes, preferably a normal haircut (most characters have one). Different basic moods are an options here but at least one with indifferent (no particular mood) tag should be there.

I should prolly auto-exclude everything except summer unless specified... Will try to look into it if this bugs us (hasn't so far).

Nature is a bit of an issue here... it doesn't seem to be useful at all as getting a picture of deep woods in the park is just as absurd as getting a picture of park in deep woods. Might be best to simply remove this and use backgrounds and quest-like tags instead.

*In fact... As I've recently displayed in SE, it's quite easy to create pictures from backgrounds + Quest-type pics for jobs as well. Getting a correct picture from tags is very, very difficult due to there being so few and them being very hard to describe properly (or rather requiring dozens of tags to describe locations properly). We need beach... we need indoor and outdoor and living room, city and stage I can understand even though I've in practice. The thing here is that I am not entirely sure that we'll have an instance when we will be able to use nature or wilderness instead of general outdoors. They are not specific enough...


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 12, 2014, 09:15:24 AM ---- Clothes:
- armor, bikini, dominatrix, lingetie, maid, miko, nurse, pajamas, plugsuit, schoolgirl, sportswear, swimsuit are self-explanatory.
- exposed (not actually nude or topless, but not "safe for work" either),  ripped (when clothes are clearly damaged a lot), topless, nude (no or almost no clothes at all).
- cosplay: any type of cosplay, including animals.
- transformed: for characters that can transform to some another form with different clothes.
- casual, formal, fashionable: now these could be a bit tricky. It often depends on character and pack maker. For example, if some character has 95% images with maid clothes tag, then normal clothes that would be casual for other characters will be fashionable, and all those maid pictures will be casual+maid.

-Background:
- no bg: pictures with transparent backgrounds. Not all formats support it, currently we mostly use png.
- simple bg: pictures with monochromatic and/or indeterminate background, usually it's pure white color or some abstract pattern.

Action tags: bathing (all kinds from shower to pool), cleaning, cooking, dancer, eating, exercising, fighting, gambling, healing, wounded, magic, musician, reading, rest, shopping, singer, sport, studing, undress, waitress, striptease.

--- End quote ---

Clothes... I've suggested to create "primetags":

sex: Explicit Sexual Content
nude: Any explicit nudity (even a nipple showing), bikini does NOT fit here, topless does.
clean: Pic without any sexual or nude content.

If we do this, clothing "nude" tag will have to be renamed or primetag will have to be given a different name.

We're not doing cow, neko, pony and etc. here?

No "onsen" specific tag in actions or locations? Bathing seems to general... it's a popular option (working, resting in onsen).


--- Quote from: DarkTl on December 12, 2014, 09:15:24 AM ---Sex - any type of sexual activity.
- equipment: anal toy, dildo, device, random item, strapon.
- partner: one/two/three/more girls/guys, partner hidden.
- sex poses: 69, doggy, missionary, onside, ontop, scissors, sitting, spooning, standing.
- additional tag: deepthroat (only for blowjob actions).
- active/passive, fuck or be fucked.
- action type: anal/oral/vaginal/hand/foot/masturbation.
So if we have two phrases: 1)passive+female+vaginal+strapon 2)active+female+oral+vaginal, it means les action where the character is fucked by strapon while licking (somehow) her partner's vagina.

Group is basically any sex tag + more than 1 partner. Often it's difficult to describe resulting pose, so we avoid it.  We still could use sex action and zones tags to describe in general what's going on with the girl. Ie in case of double penetration we take vaginal+anal. If she also uses her hands, we throw handjob too.
In case of group actions it's enough to specify partners and used character's body parts. For example, three guys+vaginal+anal+oral.
Group pictures have one subtag: bukkake.
There is one general sex tag: cum covered. It requires no partner, and it's a universal tag, since almost anything could happen with the girl before she became like this. So it could be used in many cases if there is no a better picture.

For bdsm:
- restrained, suspended, whipped, spanked, they are quite common and useful for ST.
- leashed, quite common too.
- torturing, suffers pain except whips and spanking.
- forced orgasm, even though we could use restrained+ecstatic or something, it's not exactly the same, since it can be done without partners or even without restraining.

--- End quote ---

Your new sex approach seems absurd... I can't even begin to translate this into code:


--- Quote ---So if we have two phrases: 1)passive+female+vaginal+strapon 2)active+female+oral+vaginal, it means les action where the character is fucked by strapon while licking (somehow) her partner's vagina.
--- End quote ---

"passive, active, female, vaginal, strapon, oral" so how in the world can you tell if passive should be applied to strapon, vaginal or oral? Same goes for active and same goes for strapon, who is being fucked with a strapon and how is impossible to tell.

Our sex tagging is very good... if you want, just improve on the system, don't try to replace it.

Group:
We need three distinctions here that are critical:
- Is character being taken by a group or is a part of a group taking someone else.
- Is it voluntary or not (when possible to tell).
- is it BDSM pic as well (just one tag, no extra description, cannot be BDSM tags in itself or subtags will come into conflict)
*I believe that we do no need to specify what a character is doing when being a part of a group at all. When being taken, only these are important: taken in ass, pussy, mouth, actively masturbating and if any of the member of a group are masturbating in the vicinity. The subtags you suggested will also be useful and can be used with other sex pics.


BDSM:
- torturing should be tortured.
Not sure we that we need forced orgasm.

Things to specify:
Is the character on receiving or dominating end.
Partner types (same system can be used as for sex)
I'd prefer a special tag if there is just the character present on the picture (because otherwise it would once again be required to exclude a lot of tags). *This can be automated through tagging software or through tags loading process (latter will prolly (very) slightly delay the game loading process).

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