Pink Petal Games

PyTFall => PyTFall: Game design => Topic started by: DarkTl on January 06, 2015, 02:37:26 PM

Title: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 06, 2015, 02:37:26 PM
Let's sort out items.
What I think about current system:

1) Body+arms+feet are overkill. Every time I create a cool armor, I have to duplicate it twice without a good reason. So there should be 1 body slot that includes all parts when needed.

2) I want underwear slot, probably not for MC though.  It should be unavailable even for view, unless the girl is a slave or a lover (in which case it's 100% available like any other slot). It still exists though, and AI can choose what to wear.

3) Two slots, for big and small weapon, are fine. Though we shouldn't call them weapon slots anymore (there are shields, infamous dildo sword and stuff like fans), more like right and left hand slots.

4) All less important items like rings, amulets, capes, some of existing boots and gloves too should be combined into one general class. There should be several general slots, I think about 3-4.

You can put into these slots any general items (like cape+ring+boots, or three amulets for example) as long as their id is not the same (for example, you cannot wear three rings of constitution, but ring of constitution + small ring of constitution + ring of power are ok).

5) Misc slot is a problem. The very idea of gradually working items is fun and useful, but often we need this functional on non misc items, or we need misc items that give normal bonuses. Perhaps it could be possible to extend the idea, so that any item could be gradually working, yet giving normal bonuses at the same time too if needed?

6) If we free misc slot by sharing its mechanics, I'd rather use the slot itself for something else. Maybe for things like furniture (like our stripping pole) that give small bonuses to all girls in the current building, or for pets (we already have a couple).

7) Perhaps we should abandon the idea of changing traits via items. We don't have many traits, and they are quite important. It's also too simple to equip an item and stop being clumsy instantly.

 8) How about requirements for items? Not stats, but occupation and rank. For example, only warriors can wear heavy armors, and only best of them (4 rank and higher) can wear dragon skin armor.
I know it reduces player's freedom though, at least occupation part. But rank part seems reasonable anyway.

9) I wonder if we need two slots for body, one for work and one for free time. Someone had this idea at some point, but I'm not really sure if it will be useful.
You see, warriors don't wear armor all the time (usually), and strippers don't continue to wear nothing after work too.
The problem is that we don't see girls too much outside of work, and when we do, items don't matter much either.

But the very idea is reasonable.

Of course we don't have to use second slot for such cases. In fact, we could use instead one more algorithm for autoequipping system, that based solely on traits and charisma, and not on other stats or occupation.

10) I'm not really sure about universal disposition bonus when you give an arbitrary item to a girl. Plate armor seems a bit inappropriate for a stripper, even very good plate armor, like from mithril.
In fact, I think that a stripper should refuse to take such an item, unless you already fully control her inventory, and have a disposition penalty.
So items could use gifting limitations, like bad occupation and bad trait. Iirc, so far we have good trait and bad trait fields only for autobuying system.

11) Gifts... I'm not really sure here. I think they should have something special about them, not just be items that rise disposition.
At very least they could rise arbitrary stats. Like joy or some skill.

12) Sex toys. I think we should put them in underwear slot too, they suit perfectly. Though you can wear both underwear and toy at the same time, but this is a minor discrepancy.

13) Elements for weapons and body armor. Like fire, water, etc. With numbers too (fire 2).
I'm not sure yet how will we use them in BE, but we can do it for sure. I basically don't want to set all elemental fields in the future, when we'll begin to work with BE, if I can do it right now, and the game could just ignore them meanwhile.

14) Sets.
They are arbitrary sets of items that could be equipped at the same time, and give some arbitrary bonuses when all items in a set are equipped currently.
Many people already asked for sets, so I guess we should give them.

The problem is how to tell the player how many items a set includes, how to tell that this item is a part of a set, and where and how to display this bonus.
All this can be written in description, but that seems quite clumsy to me.

Also, I kinda dislike the idea that we have to check all slots to determine if a set is completed or not. I guess we could use flags instead, so when you equip an item, it gives some hidden flag, and when there are enough such flags with the same id, they give a bonus.

15) I remember one of problems in our current items system!

It's about termination of temporary effects. If you drink a potion that temporary gives you 1000000 hp for one day, you will be dead the next morning without additional scripting. It's a major issue, really.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 06, 2015, 02:47:01 PM
Forgot about this one.
16) Locked slots for slaves. I mentioned them, it's when you can enable autoequipping, but lock some slots for it.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 06, 2015, 03:42:31 PM
Let's sort out items.
What I think about current system:

1) Body+arms+feet are overkill. Every time I create a cool armor, I have to duplicate it twice without a good reason. So there should be 1 body slot that includes all parts when needed.

Lets :)

I vote against this! (Do I get two votes as the most active member of the dev team?  ::) )

I think if this is put to the vote, you'll loose every time. The lure of having a matching set of armor is too appealing and familiar.

2) I want underwear slot, probably not for MC though.  It should be unavailable even for view, unless the girl is a slave or a lover (in which case it's 100% available like any other slot). It still exists though, and AI can choose what to wear.

... Yeah, slot is not a problem, but we have content for underwear with current system? And i don't like all the extra logic, not at this development stage anyway. Basically I don't care, if noone object added complexity, this is on as a new slot.

3) Two slots, for big and small weapon, are fine. Though we shouldn't call them weapon slots anymore (there are shields, infamous dildo sword and stuff like fans), more like right and left hand slots.

As long as we don't allow dual weapon yielding with super bonuses. I have a bit of an issue with this because one would expect being able to equip two large weapons and also distinguish between large weapon that requires two hands. Our items system is already very advanced... stuff like this messes it up even further. I don't even know how to vote here becaues I don't know what "baggage" this "simple" request carries with it.

4) All less important items like rings, amulets, capes, some of existing boots and gloves too should be combined into one general class. There should be several general slots, I think about 3-4.

You can put into these slots any general items (like cape+ring+boots, or three amulets for example) as long as their id is not the same (for example, you cannot wear three rings of constitution, but ring of constitution + small ring of constitution + ring of power are ok).

I plainly vote against... why would we want unspecified accessory slots when we have good content for specific slots?

5) Misc slot is a problem. The very idea of gradually working items is fun and useful, but often we need this functional on non misc items, or we need misc items that give normal bonuses. Perhaps it could be possible to extend the idea, so that any item could be gradually working, yet giving normal bonuses at the same time too if needed?

I am not sure... misc items always have their own logic when applied all over the code. Maybe we can do something like allowing any item having misc/normal.consumable "Effects" (for internal use with the game). Maybe it can work, maybe there will be some deal breaker in the code, I can't tell atm.

6) If we free misc slot by sharing its mechanics, I'd rather use the slot itself for something else. Maybe for things like furniture (like our stripping pole) that give small bonuses to all girls in the current building, or for pets (we already have a couple).

Maybe...

7) Perhaps we should abandon the idea of changing traits via items. We don't have many traits, and they are quite important. It's also too simple to equip an item and stop being clumsy instantly.

Any idea simplifies the concept without compromising gameplay, I support. This is one of those ideas. We can come up with series of events to control some traits if we that is required. Or counters/large events during the gameplay.

8) How about requirements for items? Not stats, but occupation and rank. For example, only warriors can wear heavy armors, and only best of them (4 rank and higher) can wear dragon skin armor.
I know it reduces player's freedom though, at least occupation part. But rank part seems reasonable anyway.

We discussed this. There is already a powerful, complicated mechanic in place that negates effects of powerful items when equipped on weak characters... Adding more..., whenever we add more to something that (imo) we've already taken care of (to a good degree), we are f%cking up the game and ourselfs along with it. At least that's how I feel about it.

9) I wonder if we need two slots for body, one for work and one for free time. Someone had this idea at some point, but I'm not really sure if it will be useful.
You see, warriors don't wear armor all the time (usually), and strippers don't continue to wear nothing after work too.
The problem is that we don't see girls too much outside of work, and when we do, items don't matter much either.

But the very idea is reasonable.

Of course we don't have to use second slot for such cases. In fact, we could use instead one more algorithm for autoequipping system, that based solely on traits and charisma, and not on other stats or occupation.

Yeap, one line of code can do this for you without any additional code (autoequip method you've mentioned). We just need to add casual set to it but it's very easy to do. Basically I vote yes in favor of using auto-equip system.

10) I'm not really sure about universal disposition bonus when you give an arbitrary item to a girl. Plate armor seems a bit inappropriate for a stripper, even very good plate armor, like from mithril.
In fact, I think that a stripper should refuse to take such an item, unless you already fully control her inventory, and have a disposition penalty.
So items could use gifting limitations, like bad occupation and bad trait. Iirc, so far we have good trait and bad trait fields only for autobuying system.

You don't get any bonus when giving items to characters atm unless it's through gift system. I acutally have no idea what happens if you give them items that raise disposition, I prolly just coded that like you've asked me to when the system was initially designed. I can take a look at the code and find out, logically, I would think that only consumable items could have such effect when being equipped (consumed).

11) Gifts... I'm not really sure here. I think they should have something special about them, not just be items that rise disposition.
At very least they could rise arbitrary stats. Like joy or some skill.

Joy is a good bet, maybe they already do. Skill, we have plenty of other items for that, it's not the purpose of gifts to do so.

12) Sex toys. I think we should put them in underwear slot too, they suit perfectly. Though you can wear both underwear and toy at the same time, but this is a minor discrepancy.

I think they should be misc... seems like a bloody good fit. Also it prevents overpowering through items that generate stuff while being worn (sex toys tend to have this effect in many games).

13) Elements for weapons and body armor. Like fire, water, etc. With numbers too (fire 2).
I'm not sure yet how will we use them in BE, but we can do it for sure. I basically don't want to set all elemental fields in the future, when we'll begin to work with BE, if I can do it right now, and the game could just ignore them meanwhile.

You can put anything you like in items fields and game will ignore it all for as long as it doesn't anticipate it. This is more or less a safe bet so it's reasonable.

14) Sets.
They are arbitrary sets of items that could be equipped at the same time, and give some arbitrary bonuses when all items in a set are equipped currently.
Many people already asked for sets, so I guess we should give them.

The problem is how to tell the player how many items a set includes, how to tell that this item is a part of a set, and where and how to display this bonus.
All this can be written in description, but that seems quite clumsy to me.

Also, I kinda dislike the idea that we have to check all slots to determine if a set is completed or not. I guess we could use flags instead, so when you equip an item, it gives some hidden flag, and when there are enough such flags with the same id, they give a bonus.

Sets are easier to add than you think.

From you I'll need:

"set": {name: "DragonBone Armor", effects: {"mod": {"magic": 100, "defence": 100, "attack": 100}, "max": {"attack": 100, "defence": 100}}, desc="Kickass armor set!"}

My approach would be to:

Add "name" to Effects and Description to tooltip when hovered (same as for traits).

If just one item of a set is equipped, there is a small red ball in the top left corner of the slot. If two or more, they turn yellow. If all (even if all is just two), they all turn green. Player can just click on the slot to take a look at the items name, it should be apparent when the entire set is called. In an odd case where it's not apparent, hint should be added to items description.

*I went with effects in my proposal because there is a system in place in the code where Effects can literally do whatever the f#ck. We can have item sets from developers and good modders that do truly unique things.

15) I remember one of problems in our current items system!

It's about termination of temporary effects. If you drink a potion that temporary gives you 1000000 hp for one day, you will be dead the next morning without additional scripting. It's a major issue, really.

I've fixed this very long time ago.

16) Locked slots for slaves. I mentioned them, it's when you can enable autoequipping, but lock some slots for it.

More else/elif forks...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 06, 2015, 04:17:54 PM
As long as we don't allow dual weapon yielding with super bonuses. I have a bit of an issue with this because one would expect being able to equip two large weapons and also distinguish between large weapon that requires two hands. Our items system is already very advanced... stuff like this messes it up even further. I don't even know how to vote here becaues I don't know what "baggage" this "simple" request carries with it.
Well, you could try to come up when better names. The fact remains that they are not longer just weapons.
There is no new logic involved, except "non-weapon" weapon type that I mentioned already. Shields just give you defence instead of attack.

... Yeah, slot is not a problem, but we have content for underwear with current system? And i don't like all the extra logic, not at this development stage anyway. Basically I don't care, if noone object added complexity, this is on as a new slot.
Content here is not a problem either. Logic makes perfect sense, the slot will be irrational without it. So if you don't want to code hidden stuff, the slot is useless. If you want to code it, I'll make it.

I plainly vote against... why would we want unspecified accessory slots when we have good content for specific slots?
...good content?

The very fact that we have a separate slot (even two in this case) for rings forces me to make multiple various rings. Same with amulets, same with capes.
Meanwhile most of them don't have a real meaning because I created them only to have them, not because I found a cool icon or had a decent idea. Using them as general items will provide freedom for creativity, and it also will allow us to freely use unusial items like earrings for example, as a part of those general items.

Basically, creating an armor or a weapon or even an underwear is much more simple and interesting process then creating those damn rings (let them burn in hell).

You don't get any bonus when giving items to characters atm unless it's through gift system. I acutally have no idea what happens if you give them items that raise disposition, I prolly just coded that like you've asked me to when the system was initially designed. I can take a look at the code and find out, logically, I would think that only consumable items could have such effect when being equipped (consumed).
Ok, now that's some news to me.
What does dismod field do then?  :D

Joy is a good bet, maybe they already do.
Not in the json anyway. Maybe in the code, but I doubt it.

More else/elif forks...
That's more important (in terms of fetishes  ::) )  than you probably think.
For example, you want slaves in collars, or, I don't know, maid slaves. Collar/maid gown equipped and locked, no more wasting time on it ever.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 06, 2015, 04:39:43 PM
Well, you could try to come up when better names. The fact remains that they are not longer just weapons.

We'll think on it...

There is no new logic involved, except "non-weapon" weapon type that I mentioned already. Shields just give you defence instead of attack.

I know... but it feels like new logic is required or at least expected :(

Content here is not a problem either. Logic makes perfect sense, the slot will be irrational without it. So if you don't want to code hidden stuff, the slot is useless. If you want to code it, I'll make it.

There is no difference between hidden and displayed slot other than a few lines of code in screens. I'll take a look at it... slots are easy, I just don't want a mess with too many slots and hidden slot is not a good idea because you don't even know if characters has anything equipped.

...good content?

The very fact that we have a separate slot (even two in this case) for rings forces me to make multiple various rings. Same with amulets, same with capes.
Meanwhile most of them don't have a real meaning because I created them only to have them, not because I found a cool icon or had a decent idea. Using them as general items will provide freedom for creativity, and it also will allow us to freely use unusial items like earrings for example, as a part of those general items.

I don't like characters being able to equip multiple boots and capes. Even amulets seems odd. I can add this on the review but I believe it's a loss to the game.

Ok, now that's some news to me.
What does dismod field do then?  :D

It does nothing. We (or I) never figured how to use it property because items can be taken from characters, unequipped, bought by them in shops while being impossible to tag individually (I recall that I've already explained why). So in order not to create a really, really freaky mess, it was never coded in.

Not in the json anyway. Maybe in the code, but I doubt it.

I'll take a look, it can be done based on disposition bonus they provide. I think just giving them gifts should simply give joy in the label (being the only play where a gift can be given).

That's more important (in terms of fetishes  ::) )  than you probably think.
For example, you want slaves in collars, or, I don't know, maid slaves. Collar/maid gown equipped and locked, no more wasting time on it ever.

Right... I'll lock some items on a review. We can add a field ("locked": true) for example.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 06, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
There is no difference between hidden and displayed slot other than a few lines of code in screens. I'll take a look at it... slots are easy, I just don't want a mess with too many slots and hidden slot is not a good idea because you don't even know if characters has anything equipped.
But that's expected, right? When you see a random girl, you can't say if she has an underwear at all, and if she has, which exactly.
For slaves and lovers it will be visible all the time, for others you don't even see a slot there.

I don't like characters being able to equip multiple boots and capes. Even amulets seems odd. I can add this on the review but I believe it's a loss to the game.
Alright, let's put it another way. Instead of same id you cannot equip general items with the same type, where type is an arbitrary string in json. That's a one simple check.
So even if we use new items like earings, all of them will have earrings type, so no multiple earrings too.

Feels like a flexible system for modders as well.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 06, 2015, 05:12:17 PM
But that's expected, right? When you see a random girl, you can't say if she has an underwear at all, and if she has, which exactly.
For slaves and lovers it will be visible all the time, for others you don't even see a slot there.

A lot of stuff in the game works that way or assumed to work that way. Stats, Traits, Misc Items (some of them for sure), Inventory with no limits. It's a better not to hide it,

Alright, let's put it another way. Instead of same id you cannot equip general items with the same type, where type is an arbitrary string in json. That's a one simple check.
So even if we use new items like earings, all of them will have earrings type, so no multiple earrings too.

Feels like a flexible system for modders as well.

Prolly for the next review, I am too tired to properly consider this atm but it seems to me like a significant complication for auto-equip function that is far from being as straightforward as you may think.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: livingforever on January 06, 2015, 05:32:07 PM
Hi!
Alright, how to sort this...

There are multiple ways in which you want to change slots. Let's start with the most important one, the body equipment slots.
I think we should keep body equipment slots as they are, same with main hand and off hand slot (that you should also name that way), but I do understand DarkTI's point, so why not create an option for items to use multiple slots?
A two handed weapon could use both the main hand and the off hand slot for example. A full body armor could use all body slots and so on.
I think that would be a very simple and intuitive solution for a complex problem.

Next, the accessories like rings and amulets. I personally think that they should be seperated from the body slots and simply be called accessories. It's not as limiting as rings but not too general either.

I don't know about the underwear slot and to be honest I don't really care much about it, but I don't like hidden information in general.

Personally, I hate the miscellaneous slot. Not only is it a bother for the programmer, it's also a bother for the player because that slot is inconvenient and confusing. Either an item is consumable or it is equippable, the misc slot is both. Very strange and very unnecessary. I'd just remove it.

The free time armor slot - as Xela already mentioned - becomes obsolete with the auto-equip system.

Also, I'm all for simple requirements for some items. Why solve this with a complex stat system rather than just putting a required rank on the item?
Have fun!
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 03:28:34 AM
- Misc items are confusing indeed. They do have the same mechanics, but there is nothing else that unites them. There are pets, there are small items, and even furniture.

It's hard to imagine how girls handle all this stuff, especially since they keep misc bonuses everywhere, not just inside the building. I'd say if we keep misc slot, it should have a precise function, not just be a slot for graduatly working random items. Perhaps we should abandon obviously immovable objects at very least.

- We don't have many rings, especially good ones. And we have hands slot, so sometimes you shouldn't be able to equip rings anyway, like with plate armor gloves.
I propose to combine hand and ring slots into one slot. Hand is hand, either you wear a ring or a glove. Unless you one of those people who use in skyrim that mod for 10 rings slots  ::)

- Capes are a problem in terms of icons. It is the most rare category ever in this regard.
I propose to combine it either with head slot (they usually have a hood), or with neck slot (they are normally attached to the neck and shoulder area).

Also, I kinda dislike the idea of small magic amulets as such. I want neck slot only for jewelry and for things like collars and ribbons. So to combine neck and cape slots could be the best bet.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: MuteDay on January 07, 2015, 03:32:32 AM
lol at least for rings, wouldnt it be better to have only 2 ie you have two ring fingers, except characters that are either handless or 1handed

Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 07, 2015, 06:43:34 AM
Hi!
Alright, how to sort this...

There are multiple ways in which you want to change slots. Let's start with the most important one, the body equipment slots.
I think we should keep body equipment slots as they are, same with main hand and off hand slot (that you should also name that way), but I do understand DarkTI's point, so why not create an option for items to use multiple slots?
A two handed weapon could use both the main hand and the off hand slot for example. A full body armor could use all body slots and so on.
I think that would be a very simple and intuitive solution for a complex problem.

It may be simple to understand, but it's a b!tch to code and maintain. It's not just that we would no longer be able to assume that one item can take just one slot during iteration but the auto-equip method will require a lot of added complicated code to check if every item that takes up more than one slot is better than remainder of the pool with the best items when used in separate slots. To make matter worse, new suggested logic already requires to put in check for complete sets and do the same thing or end up with a rather sh!tty auto-equipment method.

I kinda like this as a solution but really hate this as implementation.

Next, the accessories like rings and amulets. I personally think that they should be seperated from the body slots and simply be called accessories. It's not as limiting as rings but not too general either.

I don't know about the underwear slot and to be honest I don't really care much about it, but I don't like hidden information in general.

I dislike these generalizations in games. But both ways are matter of personal preferences.

My attitude towards underwear is exactly the same.

Personally, I hate the miscellaneous slot. Not only is it a bother for the programmer, it's also a bother for the player because that slot is inconvenient and confusing. Either an item is consumable or it is equippable, the misc slot is both. Very strange and very unnecessary. I'd just remove it.

Also, I'm all for simple requirements for some items. Why solve this with a complex stat system rather than just putting a required rank on the item?

I'll answer about the misc slot in my post to Dark because he was the one who suggested it.

Stats logic (imo) is quite good and already at place... I'd really prefer to keep it.

============================================

- Misc items are confusing indeed. They do have the same mechanics, but there is nothing else that unites them. There are pets, there are small items, and even furniture.

It's hard to imagine how girls handle all this stuff, especially since they keep misc bonuses everywhere, not just inside the building. I'd say if we keep misc slot, it should have a precise function, not just be a slot for graduatly working random items. Perhaps we should abandon obviously immovable objects at very least.

You've requested the slot. When it was discussed, we've decided that if all items have this mechanic, snowball effect will be unmanageable and good items very hard to create without starting one.

The slot was also created to handle special case items found in WM and other games that do not really fit in normal slots. I think that it was a decent idea back then and that it's a decent idea now, why back out or limit it all of a sudden?

It doesn't need to be logical, not everything in the game can be. It's a good, interesting slot with it's own "powers". Not mentioning code for it is already written.

================================
- We don't have many rings, especially good ones. And we have hands slot, so sometimes you shouldn't be able to equip rings anyway, like with plate armor gloves.
I propose to combine hand and ring slots into one slot. Hand is hand, either you wear a ring or a glove. Unless you one of those people who use in skyrim that mod for 10 rings slots  ::)

- Capes are a problem in terms of icons. It is the most rare category ever in this regard.
I propose to combine it either with head slot (they usually have a hood), or with neck slot (they are normally attached to the neck and shoulder area).

Also, I kinda dislike the idea of small magic amulets as such. I want neck slot only for jewelry and for things like collars and ribbons. So to combine neck and cape slots could be the best bet.

lol at least for rings, wouldnt it be better to have only 2 ie you have two ring fingers, except characters that are either handless or 1handed

Really? We don't? I don't have 37 excellent rings with cool picture in my dev version right now? Even if you think that's no enough, I've proposed to add "LVL-1" text to pictures when they are displayed to allow rings with levels. Rings are actually excellent design in my opinion at least and we have some of the best content for it!

We've decided to roll with 3 rings in PyTFall, I see no good reason to change that.

*We do have 15 decent capes (1 or 2 have poorly cut images), I see no reason to change that either. Same thing for amulets. They also look well (positioned) in the equipment screens!

================================
This: "main hand and off hand slot", prolly is the best option to rename the slots we're gonna come up with.


************************************
More discussion points (for current items review, if you think something should be left for the next review, do tell :) ):

1) Do we need added test to display next to pictures?
2) Do we need to create more slots like "quest" or attributes like "character_id" (cannot be equipped to anyone except specific characters).
3) Do we need to create an option for the item to pick it's own background when displayed in inventories and slots? Some items have really dark pics, some have the opposite. It is impossible to pick one backgrounds that works for them all, but it should be possible to come up with two, one light and one dark. If we use the same frame for them, it should not look too out of place.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 09:18:00 AM
You do understand that without any traits modification AND without libido many items will become useless on spot, right?
Go ahead, count how many items use them, if you can do it via console.

Really? We don't? I don't have 37 excellent rings with cool picture in my dev version right now?
Pictures are cool, no doubt about it. Too bad we don't have enough stats or other changable things to give them meaning.
I would understand if we had like 25 various skills and 50 flags. But we don't.

You've requested the slot. When it was discussed, we've decided that if all items have this mechanic, snowball effect will be unmanageable and good items very hard to create without starting one.

The slot was also created to handle special case items found in WM and other games that do not really fit in normal slots. I think that it was a decent idea back then and that it's a decent idea now, why back out or limit it all of a sudden?

It doesn't need to be logical, not everything in the game can be. It's a good, interesting slot with it's own "powers". Not mentioning code for it is already written.
The idea of gradually working items is yours though.
I wonder if it's possible to make them to not work in some cases, like during exloration for example.

We do have 15 decent capes (1 or 2 have poorly cut images), I see no reason to change that either.
I hope you like those 15 capes a lot, because there will be no more decent icons. Even Gismo was unable to find more.

1) Do we need added test to display next to pictures?
2) Do we need to create more slots like "quest" or attributes like "character_id" (cannot be equipped to anyone except specific characters).
3) Do we need to create an option for the item to pick it's own background when displayed in inventories and slots? Some items have really dark pics, some have the opposite. It is impossible to pick one backgrounds that works for them all, but it should be possible to come up with two, one light and one dark. If we use the same frame for them, it should not look too out of place.
1) I don't understand this one  :D
2) Yup, character_id would be priceless. Though I doubt quest items need a slot for equipping, they just have to be there. Like keys, for example.
3) Yeap, makes sense.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 09:51:01 AM
Aha!
I managed to open some resourses from Dungeons and Dolls after all  ;D

Yeah, well, the good news: that now we have cool items and even can easily add demountable android in the game, like an assistant for example.
The bad news: still no textures for maze.
 
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 07, 2015, 10:40:28 AM
You do understand that without any traits modification AND without libido many items will become useless on spot, right?
Go ahead, count how many items use them, if you can do it via console.

Many items mod more than just libido and/or traits. That's not the point.

Also I have not yet removed traits assignment through items either.

And also... we will have more and more skills as we move forward.

And... :D New skills system allow as to mod three multipliers and theoretical + practical skills. Meaning a lot more possible content for items.

Pictures are cool, no doubt about it. Too bad we don't have enough stats or other changable things to give them meaning.
I would understand if we had like 25 various skills and 50 flags. But we don't.

We're bound to at some point. But there are plenty of combinations as well. If you're having trouble coming up with new items, just focus on the once we have. If you really run out of options even for that I can take a look at it myself.

The idea of gradually working items is yours though.
I wonder if it's possible to make them to not work in some cases, like during exloration for example.

Possible but not necessary. It doesn't all need to be perfect and make total sense.

I hope you like those 15 capes a lot, because there will be no more decent icons. Even Gismo was unable to find more.


(http://s1.postimg.org/s4ys3vl2z/Cape_1.png) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/wob0pe2yj/Cape_1.gif) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/qefr2e3jv/Cape_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qefr2e3jv/)(http://s1.postimg.org/jchtg6zy3/Cape_2.png) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/pz4h9dhmj/Cape_2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pz4h9dhmj/)(http://s1.postimg.org/5ho4bguwr/Cape_12.png) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/jqj5fsk1n/Cape_3.png) (http://postimg.org/image/jqj5fsk1n/)(http://s1.postimg.org/md39ah0mz/Cape_4.png) (http://postimg.org/image/md39ah0mz/)(http://s1.postimg.org/o27r4sqyj/Cape_5.png) (http://postimg.org/image/o27r4sqyj/)(http://s1.postimg.org/ku39rr4or/Cape_6.png) (http://postimg.org/image/ku39rr4or/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/d3whmm2d7/Cape_7.png) (http://postimg.org/image/d3whmm2d7/)(http://s1.postimg.org/nbjmcrdyz/Cape_8.png) (http://postimg.org/image/nbjmcrdyz/)(http://s1.postimg.org/m6pk7dri3/Cape_9.png) (http://postimg.org/image/m6pk7dri3/)(http://s1.postimg.org/tiv0cx9q3/Cape_10.png) (http://postimg.org/image/tiv0cx9q3/)(http://s1.postimg.org/olhfrt7qz/Cape_11.png) (http://postimg.org/image/olhfrt7qz/)(http://s1.postimg.org/b20lm3trv/Cape_13.png) (http://postimg.org/image/b20lm3trv/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/uhbdf7n23/Cape_14.png) (http://postimg.org/image/uhbdf7n23/)(http://s1.postimg.org/gqbya44fv/Cape_15.png) (http://postimg.org/image/gqbya44fv/)(http://s1.postimg.org/9glbuajjv/Cape_16.png) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/cfxaeizcr/Cape_17.png) (http://postimg.org/image/cfxaeizcr/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/60y9husmz/Cape_18.png) (http://postimg.org/image/60y9husmz/)(http://s1.postimg.org/cih61d30b/Cape_19.png) (http://postimg.org/image/cih61d30b/)(http://s1.postimg.org/xyihfasfv/Cape_20.png) (http://postimg.org/image/xyihfasfv/)(http://s1.postimg.org/k7ilqtsvv/Cape_21.png) (http://postimg.org/image/k7ilqtsvv/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/wr4jn32bf/Cape_22.png) (http://postimg.org/image/wr4jn32bf/)(http://s1.postimg.org/jbhixmttn/Cape_23.png) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/wi6yx5piz/Cape_24.png) (http://postimage.org/)(http://s1.postimg.org/n94sn1gmz/Cape_25.png) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/hrgsczat7/Cape_26.png) (http://postimg.org/image/hrgsczat7/) (http://s1.postimg.org/ryuqbn7nf/Cape_27.png) (http://postimg.org/image/ryuqbn7nf/) (http://s1.postimg.org/bhlipzbej/Cape_28.png) (http://postimg.org/image/bhlipzbej/) (http://s1.postimg.org/8kyhpp5kr/Cape_29.png) (http://postimg.org/image/8kyhpp5kr/) (http://s1.postimg.org/kbcf72yd7/Cape_30.png) (http://postimg.org/image/kbcf72yd7/)

1) I don't understand this one  :D

I meant text. If we need an option to add text to pictures when displaying items? We can prolly leave it until we have more skills/content and may require more items than we can find icons for...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 11:29:31 AM
C'mon, most of those capes are 100% cartoonish. Have some standards, it's not DisneyFall ::)
I'd take only 3 of them. While there are literally hundreds of other items types in db, non cartoonish ones.

Let's clarify something. What skills do we have currently? Refinement and service I remember. Anything else?

I meant text. If we need an option to add text to pictures when displaying items? We can prolly leave it until we have more skills/content and may require more items than we can find icons for...
I still don't understand how is that supposed to look, or how can we use it. Items already have descriptions, right?
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 07, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
C'mon, most of those capes are 100% cartoonish. Have some standards, it's not DisneyFall ::)
I'd take only 3 of them. While there are literally hundreds of other items types in db, non cartoonish ones.

Matter of opinion, I threw couple of them into the game, they look great. But it's your call.

Let's clarify something. What skills do we have currently? Refinement and service I remember. Anything else?

At this moment, game will recognize:

anal
vaginal
oral
service
strip

But we never discussed this. I think we should add dancing and (possibly) split service or simply keep it as kind of a general skill and add bartending, cleaning and waiting (being a waitress).

I still don't understand how is that supposed to look, or how can we use it. Items already have descriptions, right?

My idea was to add text to the picture itself so we could use one icon for several similar items that only differ by level (and stats/skill VALUES that they provide). So for such items, we would now just show a picture but a picture together with a small text in the right, top corner of a picture. Same as amount of stackable items right now but in the top corner. It's not a must but an option...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: livingforever on January 07, 2015, 12:25:14 PM
Hi!
I'll just focus on the stuff that I have a relevant opinion for...
And we have hands slot, so sometimes you shouldn't be able to equip rings anyway, like with plate armor gloves.
I propose to combine hand and ring slots into one slot. Hand is hand, either you wear a ring or a glove.
Again, this could be solved with multi-slot items.

I kinda like this as a solution but really hate this as implementation.
I definitely see your point, I didn't consider the problems with auto-equip. Put it on the wishlist  :) .

It doesn't need to be logical, not everything in the game can be. It's a good, interesting slot with it's own "powers". Not mentioning code for it is already written.
[...]
Stats logic (imo) is quite good and already at place... I'd really prefer to keep it.
The thing is this: When I said that it's a hassle for the programmer and the player, I did keep in mind that it's already coded.
Still, it is hard to maintain in the long term on the programmer's side.
But even more important is that it's unintuitive for the player. Even the most complex, most well thought out system anyone can come up with is useless if the player doesn't want to deal with it.

The same goes for the item requirements. It's not that it doesn't work as it is, but it's terribly unintuitive for the player. A simple requirement would be a lot easier to understand and deal with.
Have fun!
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 01:00:14 PM
So we need a list of skills before remaking items. Otherwise there are not enough changeable things. And as big one as possible at the current stage.

My idea was to add text to the picture itself so we could use one icon for several similar items that only differ by level (and stats/skill VALUES that they provide). So for such items, we would now just show a picture but a picture together with a small text in the right, top corner of a picture. Same as amount of stackable items right now but in the top corner. It's not a must but an option...
Wait, but many icons are quite small. And not because I resized them, they already were.
Unless by small text you mean 1-3 letters, there is no enough space.

As for the very idea of leveled items... Well, the idea is very common in arpgs like diablo. I'm not sure how well it will work in our case though. If you can make the process automatic, ie without me making multiple copies of the same item, I have no objections. Maybe something like 3 subtypes of items: worn out, normal and first-class.

===================================================================================================
There is another topic I want to discuss. It has a lot in common with items system, because items are the main difference here.
I'm talking about gender duality. My thoughts:

- It seems a popular option, it used in many games. Of course if we implement it fully, it will give us a lot work with little returns.

- In my opinion, its popularity is based on the wish to have a hot, pretty MC and, possibly, have some lesbian action too.

- To provide both without giving an option to select MC's gender, we could take OW approach, where the game basically has two main characters, MC and assistant. Though we use less of unique dialogues and more of simple content.

- One another thing that makes it useful is Lesbial trait. Doing something with a purely lesbian character for a male MC without paying for that is unrealistical. It's not a major issue, but it's an issue. Unless you feel like using that system from SM3 with floating sexual preferences.


I thought about it for some time, after we discussed it with someone about half a year ago. I had several ideas so far:
- a quest item to transform MC temporarily. We can say that the effect is short, so there is no need to rewrite all events, yet when needed it will be there.

- brother+sister main heroes. You select 2 characters in the beginning, you have two MCs with two inventories and either shared or separated stats.

- now, after I unpacked all items from Dungeons and Dolls, we have an option to build an android, just like in that game, by searching for more parts and special dresses in dungeons. She also could be an assistant who tells players how to play. It's a very powerful system, they even have sectional h-pictures for variously builded androids.

Note I'm not saying that we have to code it today or tomorrow, like Xela likes to assume sometimes.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: MuteDay on January 07, 2015, 01:14:08 PM
and if you need a one built im going to be making one for my game which with a simple change of the a text box can be used for other game

Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 07, 2015, 01:42:09 PM
and if you need a one built im going to be making one for my game which with a simple change of the a text box can be used for other game

One what?

So we need a list of skills before remaking items. Otherwise there are not enough changeable things. And as big one as possible at the current stage.
Wait, but many icons are quite small. And not because I resized them, they already were.
Unless by small text you mean 1-3 letters, there is no enough space.

As for the very idea of leveled items... Well, the idea is very common in arpgs like diablo. I'm not sure how well it will work in our case though. If you can make the process automatic, ie without me making multiple copies of the same item, I have no objections. Maybe something like 3 subtypes of items: worn out, normal and first-class.

I did mean just a few letters, like LVL-1 or ULT (Ultimate). But you're prolly right, lets keep this option open for future reviews.

There is another topic I want to discuss. It has a lot in common with items system, because items are the main difference here.
I'm talking about gender duality. My thoughts:

- It seems a popular option, it used in many games. Of course if we implement it fully, it will give us a lot work with little returns.

- In my opinion, its popularity is based on the wish to have a hot, pretty MC and, possibly, have some lesbian action too.

- To provide both without giving an option to select MC's gender, we could take OW approach, where the game basically has two main characters, MC and assistant. Though we use less of unique dialogues and more of simple content.

- One another thing that makes it useful is Lesbial trait. Doing something with a purely lesbian character for a male MC without paying for that is unrealistical. It's not a major issue, but it's an issue. Unless you feel like using that system from SM3 with floating sexual preferences.


I thought about it for some time, after we discussed it with someone about half a year ago. I had several ideas so far:
- a quest item to transform MC temporarily. We can say that the effect is short, so there is no need to rewrite all events, yet when needed it will be there.

- brother+sister main heroes. You select 2 characters in the beginning, you have two MCs with two inventories and either shared or separated stats.

- now, after I unpacked all items from Dungeons and Dolls, we have an option to build an android, just like in that game, by searching for more parts and special dresses in dungeons. She also could be an assistant who tells players how to play. It's a very powerful system, they even have sectional h-pictures for variously builded androids.

Note I'm not saying that we have to code it today or tomorrow, like Xela likes to assume sometimes.

Genders are easier to add today than they were when we last talked about them. I think that was about the same time I suggested that we'll do a complete rewrite of the core-code because it was originally written for SimBro remake, later WM remake and later advanced resulting in a bit of a mess.

We have a lot of work atm and noone to provide content for male characters that I am aware of but we might introduce proper gender support at later points.

Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: MuteDay on January 07, 2015, 01:49:12 PM
a Image Tagger
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 07, 2015, 01:51:58 PM
a Image Tagger

Dark and living are working on taggers but if yours is going to be moddable, the more the merrier :)
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: MuteDay on January 07, 2015, 01:53:59 PM
mine will be ready to show ya in say 3 hours at the max, if you want it customized further just let me know and ill update it for you :) i offer to help for 2 reasongs
1) i love programming
2) i know it helps people when they can worry more about little crap then the large crap
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 07, 2015, 03:53:24 PM
I did mean just a few letters, like LVL-1 or ULT (Ultimate). But you're prolly right, lets keep this option open for future reviews.
No, you can go ahead and code that text, I will find a use for it. I'm just not sure about levels system.

noone to provide content for male characters
Mmm, content? I figured the differences between genders are inventory (female items instead of male ones) and actions in bed (lesbian only). That's how they do it in all h-games anyway  :)
Oh, and MC sprite, of course.

...though I'm beginning to like the idea of ripping android system from D&D. Even more than female MC option.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2015, 09:50:20 AM
I have a request for items system. We could use a chest (perhaps in MC's house in terms of gui) that could storage any items just like MC himself, except quest ones to not mess with scripts. That will be a place for items that you don't want to sell and don't want in your inventory all the time.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
I have a request for items system. We could use a chest (perhaps in MC's house in terms of gui) that could storage any items just like MC himself, except quest ones to not mess with scripts. That will be a place for items that you don't want to sell and don't want in your inventory all the time.

Ok, I take a look at that as well.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2015, 10:36:20 AM
We lack an ability to simply give items to a girl from girls screen. Right now you can only do it via equipment, ie equip something then equip other item, in which case the first item will remain in her inventory.
It's a bit strange, don't you think?
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2015, 11:08:48 AM
We lack an ability to simply give items to a girl from girls screen. Right now you can only do it via equipment, ie equip something then equip other item, in which case the first item will remain in her inventory.
It's a bit strange, don't you think?

That's what we have items transfer screen for.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2015, 11:34:19 AM
It doesn't have any filters. Good luck finding a one random girl when you have 100 per brothel and 5 brothels.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2015, 12:08:56 PM
It doesn't have any filters. Good luck finding a one random girl when you have 100 per brothel and 5 brothels.

You've been developing the game for two years and for 1.5 we had access to items transfer screen for just the mc and the girl from every girlsprofile screen... Now it looks like a sack thanks to Gismo. Before it was IT (Items Transfer). I know you're having trouble with those icons/buttons on top stripe but there are 6 or 7 of those in total, how hard can it really be to remember what they do?
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2015, 02:01:38 PM
Quite hard. Every time I need a transfer screen, I begin to search it starting from MC inventory, and brothels screen is the last place where I look because judging by name it's about brothels, not items management  ::)

But it has nothing to do with my mlg navigation skills. Girls screen has all possible filters. Transfer screen only has items type filter.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2015, 03:05:33 PM
But it has nothing to do with my mlg navigation skills. Girls screen has all possible filters. Transfer screen only has items type filter.

I have no idea what you're saying here...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 12, 2015, 03:25:43 PM
Show me some filter for girls here:
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 12, 2015, 03:43:02 PM
Show me some filter for girls here:

? The point is to enter there from girls profile, not from brothel, there will be one girl and mc there then...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 13, 2015, 04:10:09 AM
Ah, I see. My bad.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 11:29:28 AM
I am getting really sick of this items sh*t, seem like no matter how much logic added or code  improved, there is something left. What's worse, I believe that people will find the designs confusing, too complicated and close to impossible to really keep track of for this many characters. Imo, we're dealing with items concept in a really poor way :( confusing something that should be done in RPG game with three to ten characters tops with something that should be done in a game with 200+.

======================
That aside:
- Code for equipment slots/dolls is unified.
- Code for items display is unified to about 80%.
- Different backgrounds (light/dark) are added (and texts adjusted accordingly)
- Most screens improved.
- Unique items (only to be equipped to MC or other unique characters) are added.
- Quest items logic is 90% added.

There is still a very long TODO list to take out in the items field, but I strongly doubt that I'll ever get to finish this crap before I run out of steam. Rest we'll finish for the release after the next.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 18, 2015, 11:51:45 AM
You rejected all my proposals to simplify the system, without exceptions. I'm powerless  ::)
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 12:01:23 PM
I am not the one who came up with a list of 16 proposals and a new thread ;)

Going to adapt shops a bit, maybe add sets and "maybe" add offhand/mainhand slots instead of smallweapon/weapon. Rest can prolly wait. + You proposals of "simplification" do not simplify anything in the design.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 18, 2015, 01:27:21 PM
Gloves+body+boots =/= one general slot in terms of difficulty.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 01:32:15 PM
Gloves+body+boots =/= one general slot in terms of difficulty.

Yeah, but we handle slots through iteration so there is no change what so ever in terms of logic, all that does:

1) Remove the possibility for proper battle item-sets.
2) Forces me to adapt the positioning of the slots onscreen.
3) Kills a bunch of items already created for the game.

It does not reduce the amount of code or simplify the logic. That's why I rejected it.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 18, 2015, 01:47:45 PM
You should take a look at those items threads in User Mods. People want moar items with new mechanics. And items have to do something, there is no way around it.
If fact, items that we have are quite simple. They can change current and max stats, affect skills (almost the same thing) and add/remove traits and effects (effects = manipulations with stats again currently).
Eventually we'll have something to do with BE, and items will have new stats and traits to change, possibly related to elements and spells.

If you want to talk about complex stuff, we should talk about chance to trigger various, different effects during equipping/consuming (btw I believe wm has something like this already), or about weight limit/inventory limit.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 18, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
I wonder how useful could be a new field that can multiply current stats just like we already do with skills... I'm afraid that max values will negate its usefulness.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 02:33:22 PM
...

What a load of cr@p... items system in pytfall includes (besides the usual icons/price/slots and etc.):

- Modifying stats (min/max/mod) guided by a very complex system.
- Modifying skills through 5 fields.
- Adding/removing traits.
- Auto-equipping system (very complex btw + about to get worse if I actually manage to pull off sets and decide to check for that).
- Auto-buying system.
- Ways to add them to areas in exploration.
- Ways to win them in the area.
- Adding/Removing spells.
- Filtering based on sex.
- Sorting logic for slots: (misc, consumable, equipable).
- Adding/Removing effects. (we do have this, just not enough effects)
- Dealing with stat-growth while being maxed-out, true/added by items traits, traits memory on removal of items and making sure that items don't take stats with them after a max-out. (WM/Most games don't have even this btw.)
- Sorting by locations (shops, arena, se and etc.)
- Maximum stats allowed (reminds me: Add max to skills as well!)
- Type tracking.
- Blocking effects for x amount of days for consumables.
- Reusable/self-desctructing items for misc.
- Different rules for Slaves and Freefolk.
- Quest items.
- Gift items.
- Unique items.
...
- Area effects such as for a building, types, all girls (possibly even gamewide, I don't remember).
- Items transfer screen (personal or building-wide).
- Equipping items from Characters or directly from MCs inventory.
- Paging + Filtering system.
- Actual auto-equip logic during SE.
- Girls go on shopping tours and game reports what they've bought.
- Add gold/experience.
- Poison over overeating.

Pff... it's f#cked up :(

I wonder how useful could be a new field that can multiply current stats just like we already do with skills... I'm afraid that max values will negate its usefulness.

Prolly not very useful.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 04:36:37 PM
I prolly forgot quite a bit as well, like free girls tracking what you gave to them...
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: livingforever on January 18, 2015, 04:41:10 PM
Hi!
People want moar items with new mechanics.
What a load of cr@p... items system in pytfall includes (besides the usual icons/price/slots and etc.):
Items with mechanics =/= Mechanics related to items.

Also, my project got extended until the 6th of February...
Have fun!
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 18, 2015, 07:29:53 PM
Items with mechanics =/= Mechanics related to items.

No sh!t :)

But I've stated a lot of items mechanics as well and it should be noted that "Mechanics related to items" can mess up added items logic or require more work/hours (like the auto-equip method adds a lot of work for some simple addons which we previously discussed).
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 19, 2015, 10:00:48 AM
- Almost no mins. I had to cut most of them off (same goes for traits), because there were multiple problems with them in the game, according to you.

- Skills=stats in terms of players logic, since they are numbers that can be changed via training and items, and should be as high as possible when possible.

- What traits do? They used for checks, they change stats and add/remove effects. Effects change stats too, just in a bit unusual way. But we cannot afford a lot of checks for a lot of traits (see new traits concept thread, yeah). So absolute majority of traits will change stats only.

- Spells right now are close to useless without good, interesting and distinctive BE, or at least SE where AI use spells.
Because we don't even have spells outside of BE, even though there could be dozens of spells, like healing and buffs.

Almost everything that items do they do with stats. Moreover, they do it strictly predictable, with no side effects or possible danger involved (something that wm has).

When I'm talking about unique items, I imagine stuff like, for example, containers (whether it summoning amulet or stasis chamber on icon) that give you random or unique characters.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 19, 2015, 02:10:30 PM
- Almost no mins. I had to cut most of them off (same goes for traits), because there were multiple problems with them in the game, according to you.

True, this is limited for a number of reasons.

- Skills=stats in terms of players logic, since they are numbers that can be changed via training and items, and should be as high as possible when possible.

Not true, systems are very, very different.

- What traits do? They used for checks, they change stats and add/remove effects. Effects change stats too, just in a bit unusual way. But we cannot afford a lot of checks for a lot of traits (see new traits concept thread, yeah). So absolute majority of traits will change stats only.

They can also exclude one-another and change stats, skills in very different manners.

- Spells right now are close to useless without good, interesting and distinctive BE, or at least SE where AI use spells.
Because we don't even have spells outside of BE, even though there could be dozens of spells, like healing and buffs.

That's a whole other concept.

Almost everything that items do they do with stats. Moreover, they do it strictly predictable, with no side effects or possible danger involved (something that wm has).

That's true in part, in WM they can drug the character, add bad traits. But that's fairly similar to what our Effects do, we can add Drugged effect or a couple of these kind of effects. But WM does one thing really smart, they do not report item effects in a table, they just hint on effects in the description unless I forgot.

When I'm talking about unique items, I imagine stuff like, for example, containers (whether it summoning amulet or stasis chamber on icon) that give you random or unique characters.

Maybe... it's actually not that hard to code in. We just need to create event labels and run them when item is consumed. But same thing can be done with events system... we had that for a while and noone really created a single unique event to get a character.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 19, 2015, 03:02:56 PM
we had that for a while and noone really created a single unique event to get a character.
When I imagine a decent special event to get a character (other than unique girlmeet), it always involves exploration or battle. At the current level it will look pathetic at best.
So dialogues is all you can count on (or rather monologues, since MC is silent), maybe little quests like collect something x 10.

Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 19, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
When I imagine a decent special event to get a character (other than unique girlmeet), it always involves exploration or battle. At the current level it will look pathetic at best.
So dialogues is all you can count on (or rather monologues, since MC is silent), maybe little quests like collect something x 10.

Might be a failure of imagination on your part, they build entire games with just the dialogue :)

Game has an insane number of opportunities, locations and battle setups. Most do require knowledge of the code but noone ever asked me anything in that department either except CW.

Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)

Very true, this requires a lot of time. Hopefully we'll get something that will last at least a few releases this time, if not till the 1.0.

I am going to get the height method together, set the default to "average" and maybe add some more stuff to items.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 19, 2015, 06:23:50 PM
Though I have my hands absolutely full with retagging, items, traits and girlmeets  ::)

And please don't do anything for items yet... there are still some fields under question.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 19, 2015, 11:53:01 PM
We lack exploration, not even as an engine, but as an option. You can only go to some usual location and look for something there.
Thus it's impossible to truly hide something in order for players to search for it or even chance upon.

Yeah, I guess you could hide something via SE. But it has nothing to do with MC (= player himself), since your girls will find it automatically and behind scenes.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 20, 2015, 07:23:18 AM
Very true, this requires a lot of time. Hopefully we'll get something that will last at least a few releases this time, if not till the 1.0.
I'm not really sure if it possible to add something to tag system at least. We already have all available decent pics in packs, and if it's possible to find more somewhere, it would require a huge amount of time. Same goes for tags, even if we add some new categories, pictures for them are too rare to be widely used.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 20, 2015, 08:28:02 AM
We lack exploration, not even as an engine, but as an option. You can only go to some usual location and look for something there.

I am not sure what you mean with "option", we have engines, you've seen Jake's engine possibilities, you've seen the pseudo3D thing and now there is an example of rpg-maker like engine in the cookbook that runs really, really well, not mentioning Alkions design and my ancient walkabout. But any of these will require insane amount of effort, time and resource. I doubt that we'll have proper exploration until post 1.0.

Thus it's impossible to truly hide something in order for players to search for it or even chance upon.

Yeah, I guess you could hide something via SE. But it has nothing to do with MC (= player himself), since your girls will find it automatically and behind scenes.

Matter of opinion, people manage excellent quests, events in faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar simpler designs than ours. SM for once... they have insane amount of on map content in a simpler map while many of the request/events do not even deal with st goals at all but add stats/skills/experience/items and etc.

Hiding...
- How about a barely visible button masking itself in the background?
- Or have all but one (or just all) characters from a specific origin?
- Or only after specific day (157)?
- Or to appear after a certain level, stat(s), skill(s) have been reached?
- Or on the full moon?
- Or only on Wednesday?
- Or only when a specific item(s) is equipped?
- Or only after some unique interaction with the character?
- Or SE... they will not find anything if you only add the item to the location after/during a quest/event.
- Or taking a specific place in the Arena ladders.
- Or, or, or, or... conditions are limitless, whatever you want to hide, will be hidden unless they are fulfilled.

Even with the most basic VN tools and a couple of characters, people make awesome games with events, multi-endings, choices and etc. This "one thing is missing because we don't have "IT", (this one last thing that we need to kick ass) :D" is bs and an excuse. With a bit of imagination and effort, possibilities are already endless.
==============================================


I'm not really sure if it possible to add something to tag system at least. We already have all available decent pics in packs, and if it's possible to find more somewhere, it would require a huge amount of time. Same goes for tags, even if we add some new categories, pictures for them are too rare to be widely used.

You're prolly right or at least I hope that you are :)

==============================================
On items front... should we add fields like "battleready" or even a separate slot for items that we want to add to BE. I am sick of the items code, going to take a look at BE for while, see if I now have enough skill to understand it better so interface can be improved and maybe some new options added or at the very least, make the life simpler for me in the future.

Otherwise, maybe I can take a shot at building out own simple BE.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 20, 2015, 09:28:40 AM
I am not sure what you mean with "option", we have engines, you've seen Jake's engine possibilities, you've seen the pseudo3D thing and now there is an example of rpg-maker like engine in the cookbook that runs really, really well, not mentioning Alkions design and my ancient walkabout.
You think we can use Jake's engine possibilities? No we don't unless he also has tons of graphic resources that we will never be able to obtain for free.
SE is our best bet.

- Or, or, or, or... conditions are limitless, whatever you want to hide, will be hidden unless they are fulfilled.
Pixel hunting is a bad thing even in pure quest games, and should be prosecuted  ::)

I'm not talking about hiding events. I mean items and places. Can you find an ancient artifact or an abandoned temple in the middle of a street or two meters away from the city, even on the full moon? Maybe once, but not all the time.
So we need SE, and a well developed one (not one location without any maps at all, yeah).

Otherwise, maybe I can take a shot at building out own simple BE.
I don't know what to do with BE. I don't want to use our current one, that's for sure. Either it has to be heavily modified, or we need a new one.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 20, 2015, 09:38:26 AM
I don't know what to do with BE. I don't want to use our current one, that's for sure. Either it has to be heavily modified, or we need a new one.

How? I want to put some time into this tonight, what do you think we should do? And what kind of BE do you see in PyTFall?

There are two options the way I see it:

1) Modify Jakes BE to jump through our hoops, I am looking into it right now.

Pros:
- Core and main loop are ready.
- We can get normal RPG battle scheme and move about battle scheme like the mockup if you run pytfall.arena.test() in the console.

Cons:
- It's fairly advanced and complicated engine due to a large amount of possible schemes so it is hard to develop.

2) Create our own:

Pros:
- We can do what we like with it.

Cons:
- Starting from scratch and multiple schemes will be a real pain in the butt.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 20, 2015, 09:51:27 AM
For a start, it is just as alien concept as wm traits were before I reworked them. Now we can have thousands of traits as long as they only change stats and skills, none of them will need new checks and almost all existing chracters are covered (some are not, but they would require special scripting anyway, no matter what we do with traits).

What Jakes BE requires from us?
- Rare, wide backgrounds.
- Animated spells with side view (not common too).
- Battle sprites (we can easily use portraits and lose nothing).
Meanwhile I don't think it supports rows  ;)
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 20, 2015, 10:04:25 AM
I hate portraits in battle-engines. It doesn't support rows, no. Animated spells should be a must, it does not require an animation. You can do with a sounds, some default or nothing at all I expect.

The rpg type BE I actually really like and don't believe it to be foreign at all.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 20, 2015, 10:17:47 AM
I see you avoided backgrounds question  :)
But our best bg (for arena) is custom made. There will be no more, at least from the same person.
Title: Re: New items concept
Post by: Xela on January 20, 2015, 10:50:07 AM
I see you avoided backgrounds question  :)
But our best bg (for arena) is custom made. There will be no more, at least from the same person.

Just forgot. We'll find backgrounds, I don't worry about that. I am done with work for today, going to take a break and start looking into BE options.