devolution

Poll

Sandbox, Story, Both?

Sandbox
11 (15.7%)
Story
11 (15.7%)
Both
48 (68.6%)

Total Members Voted: 69

Author Topic: Pie, Pi, and Carl Sagan  (Read 45828 times)

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Offline TF

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 10:49:39 PM »
I have to disagree, Mehzerz: Writing for a silent protagonist is probably easier, yes, but my main problem with it is that silent protagonists only really work well without ranges of choices. In games like Zelda your choices are generally limited to something like "Yeah, let's go" and "I'm not ready yet." Here we have a range of interactions being taken with girls, customers, and rivals. Even if nobody writes up dialogue for the protagonist (which I think would be a mistake,) he'll still have the dynamic reactions of someone making different decisions in different instances, we'll just have to imagine what they are saying by the context of the other characters' replies. (Which, if the writers have something specific in mind, poses the challenge of setting up the proper context in the *reply* for people to know what the pc was *supposed* to have said, and then you end up with the same "continuity" problem, anyway.)

To me the best solution is just making sure that whoever's committing the dialogue into the game proofreads the dialogue first and either edits it for consistency, or gives notes and has the contributing party edit it. I don't actually see it as being as much of a problem as other people though, since the pc's dialogue has always been fairly short and to the point, though, and if it's defined by player choices, the choices will define the dialogue and in essence provide the consistency required.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:51:40 PM by TF »

Offline fixet

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 11:14:37 PM »
silent protagonist

sometimes I think of him as a power-hungry authority figure, sometimes a sadist, a businessman, or just a guy trying to get by
it contributes to the game more than an actual character would, in my opinion


and just a friendly advice
don't approach anything with "it's ok, it will be moddable"
you're not todd howard, make shit right from the start

Offline Lorde

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 11:16:59 PM »
I actually wrote up a post detailing how I prefer neither. But then I realized, Unless you are a Link or a Gordon Freeman. You aren't actually silent. Take Dragon Age. Sure the character doesn't speak, but that's a lot of text being spewed out. And I don't think this game could possibly have a "pure" silent MC. A lot of the feed back players receive from this game is text based. And the images will probably never fit the scene that is playing out 100%. (we are basically gathering up fan images as pac creators.)

Sure we could script a scene that fits whats going on in an image, but that would be very limiting since you basically have to cross your fingers and hope artists drew the idea you had in your head. So script writers will rely more on text than on imagery to try and get a scene across. Doesn't necessarily mean that  the MC will speak, but we will be at least peering  inside his or her head when a scene plays out. As apposed to us imagining what their response was. (Like Imagining that Grodon just told Alyx Vance to go fuck off when she called him a man of few words.)


So I guess that's my take on it.
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Offline fires_flair

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 11:20:45 PM »
well, having some history beyond what there currently is, would help (for me at least) in making some types of events, and having some voice would help inspire and determine if I want to write some events out (like what will work or won't), so for me I would like to see a more lively MC, but I think as much should be left to chance as possible, with only minimal assumptions (but then I'm the person who never likes the given options in most games). I don't really know what a silent MC would be, except it kinda feels like some one who doesn't say anything, thus leaves a lot to desire, and makes script writing harder (if it's anything like it was in Zelda: Ocarina of Time, or games where it's more lead by 3rd party narratives then players choice). so some one who points, or is just lead along, grunts would be a bad thing.
so maybe a personality, or various personalities, to suit the choices that are made, but try to keep a minimum on the back story, or limitations. but more fleshed out then it is now. Having a character chose a history at the beginning would/could be helpful if there are going to be more then one personality- or advantage set. then the personality could be tied to the history, and past experiences based on that. though it would require a great deal more time to develop. there could be specific quests or quests tailored/altered to seem so for each history.
also I have to agree with Lorde this game can't have a purely silent MC, for the reasons he says.

Offline Mehzerz

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2010, 12:23:47 AM »
well, having some history beyond what there currently is, would help (for me at least) in making some types of events, and having some voice would help inspire and determine if I want to write some events out (like what will work or won't), so for me I would like to see a more lively MC, but I think as much should be left to chance as possible, with only minimal assumptions (but then I'm the person who never likes the given options in most games). I don't really know what a silent MC would be, except it kinda feels like some one who doesn't say anything, thus leaves a lot to desire, and makes script writing harder (if it's anything like it was in Zelda: Ocarina of Time, or games where it's more lead by 3rd party narratives then players choice). so some one who points, or is just lead along, grunts would be a bad thing.
so maybe a personality, or various personalities, to suit the choices that are made, but try to keep a minimum on the back story, or limitations. but more fleshed out then it is now. Having a character chose a history at the beginning would/could be helpful if there are going to be more then one personality- or advantage set. then the personality could be tied to the history, and past experiences based on that. though it would require a great deal more time to develop. there could be specific quests or quests tailored/altered to seem so for each history.
also I have to agree with Lorde this game can't have a purely silent MC, for the reasons he says.


I have to agree in thinking a purely silent MC would leave little to be desired in this game. One that gives some minor thoughts or details on a subject may be necessary.


Seems you guys are more prone to the more "Mass Effect/Kotor" Bioware type game MCs. Where there's three or four personalities per individual choice. But they largely don't speak unless asked a question or for input on a subject. In my opinion silent MC's seem secondary, like part of the group but not the leader. If you played Persona 4 it seemed like the main characters best friend was more of the MC than he was. That's something I'd largely like to avoid with WM.


So I guess what I'm trying to say the MC who only speaks AFTER given a particular alignment choice or the like, might very well be perfect for WM. A personality would largely be defined by your actions rather than his words. If you played Mass Effect each option gave widely different personalities, and they got away with it because people normally chose a particular path which all flowed together. The best part about this option is that the MC would also be easier to write since you'd have to write three or four definite personalities.
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Offline TF

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2010, 01:25:33 AM »
I think we're actually fairly well in line on this. It seems, perhaps, that I've been taking the word "silent" as much more of an absolute than some people. My idea of a non-silent protagonist wasn't a particularly verbose one, but certainly one who speaks when necessary or when spoken to (like the "I run a business in town; why don't you come work for me?" line.)

Offline Lorde

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2010, 02:01:21 AM »

Seems you guys are more prone to the more "Mass Effect/Kotor" Bioware type game MCs. Where there's three or four personalities per individual choice. But they largely don't speak unless asked a question or for input on a subject. In my opinion silent MC's seem secondary, like part of the group but not the leader. If you played Persona 4 it seemed like the main characters best friend was more of the MC than he was. That's something I'd largely like to avoid with WM.


This is actually a very good point with Persona. It's very hard to convey a story through a silent MC. Often times, you have to write for the MC through the other characters. So you end up more like a spectator than an actual participant in the story. Sometimes it works. Especially with great character design. P3's mc came across as someone who would just stand there with his hands in his pockets listening to an mp3 player while the Seniors made all the plans. Then, go whack something over the head when they decided what to do. P4, not so much.

The alternative of course (and persona sorta touched on this with the Social Link part) is to have the MC not as silent but speaking through a multiple choice set up. So this way, you don't end up like P4 where another character steals the spotlight. (In WM's case, the girls would most likely steal the spotlight. Or maybe even well scripted gang leaders.) 

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Offline DocClox

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2010, 02:03:09 AM »
don't approach anything with "it's ok, it will be moddable"
you're not todd howard, make shit right from the start

Right for whom?

It seems not everyone has the same conception of what is right for this game

Offline LordJerle

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2010, 02:25:11 AM »
Right for whom?

It seems not everyone has the same conception of what is right for this game

I realize not everybody's familiar with the development process, so I shall enlighten him.
There's the planning phase, where you draw out a plan, maybe write a storyboard and jot down design ideas.
Then there's the coding phase, which may, or may not, involve scraping up whoever you can find to code.
Then there's the alpha phase, where you test something that may or may not crash your computer and force you to reinstall whatever OS you have.
Then there's beta, where you know it won't cause you to rip your hair out while trying to hunt down that pesky windows install disk, but it's still quite buggy so you unleash your creation upon numerous people, while you laugh at their plight and expect them to tell you every little bug they find. 
Then there's final release, which most of the bugs have been ironed out.  There may still be a few bugs here and there, but overall it's pretty well stable. 
I'd also like to note... Superman for 64 completely skipped the beta phase and went straight to final release... Shoving Lois Lane into the floor to keep her safe was the best bug EVER!
There is no such thing as a perfect game with perfect design that's bug free.  That's a myth.  Different strokes for different folks.  Some people like Dragonball Z, some people don't.  Some people are entrapped by the idiocy of American Idol, some aren't.  Don't come in here spouting your "Make shit right from the start" crap.  If you want a game made your way, make it yourself.  The source is available, edit it to your liking, and play it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:30:19 AM by LordJerle »

Offline TF

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2010, 02:29:49 AM »
Right for whom?

It seems not everyone has the same conception of what is right for this game

Make it right for me, damnit!

Offline Lorde

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2010, 02:39:35 AM »
Don't come in here spouting your "Make shit right from the start" crap.  If you want a game made your way, make it yourself.  The source is available, edit it to your liking, and play it.

I would sig this if I wasn't so disorganized and needed my work list staring at me in the face.

  Make it right for me, damnit!
 

But what if I want something different Then you?  :'(
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:43:25 AM by Lorde »
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* Yukari Takeba (Persona 3)
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Offline LordJerle

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2010, 02:49:14 AM »
I would sig this if I wasn't so disorganized and needed my work list staring at me in the face.

But what if I want something different Then you?  :'(

I want my girls to get drunk then accidentally kill a client during rough sex and get arrested >.>  Conjugal visits baby!

Offline Mehzerz

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2010, 02:59:26 AM »
Why isn't this a flying sim? I DEMAND MORE FLYING. THIS GAME SUCKS.


(Totally off-topic again)


So guys... sandbox or story? Oh and Personal MC or no? Mass Effect MC?
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Offline TF

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2010, 03:32:10 AM »
I hope that my vote's clear, but for the sake of conciseness:  Both, with story favored over sandbox; Personal character with voice, defined more by choices than predetermination.

Offline DocClox

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Re: Sandbox v Story (WM)
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2010, 04:05:34 AM »
I've been thinking about this. You know how part of the problem with the sandbox discussion was that different people used "sandbox" to mean different things? Well I think we're using "personality" in a couple of different ways, too.

Let's look at the Mass Effect examples. Shepard gets three responses to each option - roughly corresponding to good/neutral/evil in D&D terms. So some folks are taking the enirely sensible view that the Shepard who's willing to do something horrible and selfish in a given circumstance has a different personality to the one who's willing to say nice things in order to get to exactly the same place.  It's a reasonable way of looking at it. I mean Shepard doesn't know his choices are meaningless, after all.

On the other hand, I don't think it's the most useful way of looking at it. For the purposes of this disucssion, it's better to think of Shepard as a man (or woman) who like most of us is capable of both good and evil, and makes moral choices on a case  by case basis.

Looked at that way, Shepard has a fairly clear, singular personality. He's got your basic miliary mindset. He's goal oriented; a team player; no discernable sense of humour; he thinks IP licences are a really good idea (I wonder why) and he's a wee bit clueless when it comes to getting laid. That's how I think of Shepard's personality. The Good/Neutral/Evil options are better thought of as morality, and from a game design viewpoint, they are complimentary to the matter of personality.

In morality terms, I'd like to write events that (like Mass Effect) offer a range of moral responses. Unlike ME, I'd like them to make some sort of difference.

In terms of personality, I see the MC as having a clearly defined persona. He's a tough guy, but not brutal or mindlessly violent; he has a sense of humour, tending towards the dry, larconic end of the spectrum; he has a strong sense of right and wrong, and like many real world criminals, he's capable of getting upset by any moral outrage that he hasn't actually caused.

In a lot of ways, he's like a Raymond Chandler PI, dropped into a fantasy setting and working as a criminal rather than a detective. There's a quote from Chandler that puts it nicely.

Quote
But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid.  He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor -- by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it. He must be the best man in his world and a good enough man for any world...  He will take no man's money dishonestly and no man's insolence without a due and dispassionate revenge ... and his pride is that you will treat him as a proud man or be very sorry you ever saw him. He talks as the man of his age talks -- that is, with a rude wit, a lively sense of the grotesque, a disgust for sham, and a contempt for pettiness.