<-- Archived --> *Image tagging concept

[Xela]

Mid-Tags-Roundup
(as we discussed here)

"Main Tags":

battle_sprite
battle

stripping
solo
anal
bestiality
blowjob
lesbian
sex
submission
group


profile
quest
date
entertainment
resting
shopping

"Sub tags":

profile:

- meeting (subtag for girls who don't have date pics?) (or date + profile will do...)

sex:

- footjob
- handjob

blowjob:
- 69
- titsjob

solo:
- masturbation
- selfpleasure (other than masturbation)

lesbian:
- cunnilingus (we'll drive modders nuts with spelling errors, maybe "eat pussy" is a better tag) (KILL THIS IN FAVOR OF "lick pussy + lesbian"")
- tribadism (another bs word they came up with to make it sound more than it is, "scissors" might be a better tag)
- strapon
- dildo joined


General sex (applicable to more than one main sex category, those categories MUST be specified when tagging):

- active
- passive
- covered (in cum, I don't think we'll ever have another covered tag)
- covered solo (like Dark said, loads of these pics out there and events are easy to write)
- lick pussy (@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...)
- lick anus (@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...)
- finger pussy
- finger anus
- caress tits
- hug
- kiss
- strip
- dildo
- anal beads
- device
- missionary
- doggy
- ontop
- onside (research required for a better name I guess)
- standing
- suspended (girl is clinging to the guy, can be a part of standing in sex, bdsm might have a different meaning :0 )
- sitting
- spoon
- caress
- forced (sometimes apparent from the pic even if the girl is not restrained, we could use it in events)

submission:
(need some input here) (active here should mean that main character is punishing other participant(s), passive is assumed and should not be used otherwise.)
- amount of people in the picture available already as tags.
- restrained
- torture (when apparent?)

bestiality:

- tentacles

group:
(need some input here as well) (but other than using amount(gender) of people and type(s) of intercourse, should we even add more tags?)
- bukkake (always without penetration?)

battle:

- classic weapons
- modern weapons (includes futuristic kind?)

entertainment:

- cosplay
- musician (music)

rest:

- reading
- bath (CW, please clarify if we need this together with bathing attendant, bathrobe under clothing, bathroom under locations)
- nap (CW, please clarify if we need this together with sleeping?)

"Descriptor tags" (aka Sub/sub tags):

clothing:

- nude
- lingerie
- cat (neko)
- maid
- bunny

actions:

- sport
- cooking
- eating (sub tag for rest maybe, but it doesn't matter)

state:

- drunk
- pregnant
- transformed (as applicable to many girls...)

"Flag Tags":

- night
- winter
- autumn (usually apparent by looking at trees/grass)
- partner hidden
- partner visible
- no bg
- simple bg


PS: What do you guys think about using +/- for active/passive indications btw??? I've realized while writing the above that in many cases it might work as well/better than active/passive.

[rudistoned]

Try the very first video, it's quite good

Not in the mood for "research", sorry
Plus, I doubt my first google hit will be the same as yours (no, I'm not asking for a link...).

We just have "blowjob" tag, without give/get.

How does that make it less obscure in its meaning?

what I mean to say is that it is possible to work with a LOT of tags and possible to work with 1), point is to find the acceptable middleground.

Working with thousands of tags is impossible for a hobbyist project.
If you have just one tag, drop it completely and just use a directory.
If you have a tagging system, you need to decide how detailed you want it to be. If you think the +-tags are outside your "acceptable middleground", please just say so and maybe back it up with arguments. Talking about impossible scenarios will get us nowhere.

I've been thinking about it and came to conclusion that creating a system that would search for what you need from to many tags, is almost impossible as a number of tags will always be missing and you are bound to end up getting odd pictures.

I think it is possible. It works quite well in Pytherworld IMHO, if you give the game enough images that are decently tagged. I've been using Image Tagger for quite some time to add tags to a local image archive here for testing. Of course, occasionally you get an odd picture. With fine tuning, I believe this can be made a rare occasion.
The advantage you buy with this system is that it can create random events (combinations of images and text that are not pre-defined) that reflect the ingame situation relatively closely, even if nobody ever foresaw this exact situation. In addition, every content that is added to the database will make the system better (if the content is tagged accurately).
The only high-quality alternative IMHO is the way Ashford Academy does it: Pre-defined events with text written especially for each image. That is great, but very hard to pull off for large amounts of images.

This can be mitigated somewhat by using "main categories" that will be checked primarily during the sorting.

Sounds like the scoring tags used in Pytherworld tasks.

Otherwise, a decent solution: create a number of unique tags for more/most demanding jobs and events and use that instead of trying to match tags to event content (texts, locations etc.).

If you don't use tags to dynamically match images to ingame situations, what do you need tags for? What you are suggesting sounds more like what Otherworld does, which you didn't like in the past.

IMHO: I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.

The +-sex tags always refer to the main character. "+finger pussy" means she fingers the pussy of another girl. "-lick pussy" means she has her pussy licked by someone else. In combination with the "partners" tag category, you can get a relatively complete description of what is going on for the main character while still having an amount of tags that is manageable.

Of course you can simplify the system, but the tradeoff is that you lose information. The less information you have, the less likely it is that the image matching routine will find a good image for your situation. If you want to have dynamic image matching, you need good tags. If you don't want to do all that tagging, don't go with dynamic matching. Let the image pack creators describe what they see on the images in terms of ingame text instead of tags.

Otherworld tries to have it both ways, use a simple tagging system and dynamically match images to ingame text. As you know, the results are quite generic.

Im_1: Should be: "lesbian", "finger pussy" <-- if we have the tag (we prolly should), "active" + other relevant tags
Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags

Pay attention.

How can ("lesbian", "finger pussy", "active") in image 1 mean that Belldandy fingers another girls pussy (=active act) while in image 2 ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "active") means that Belldandys pussy is licked (=passive act)? I suppose you meant Im_2 should be ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "passive")? Even if that assumption is true, you lose either what Belldandy is actively doing ("passive" tag on image) or you lose what is done to her ("active" tag on image). Lost information is information you can't use to make the ingame text more interesting.

[Xela]

What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?

I'd say: "lesbian", "dildo joined" + other relevant tags.

this

I don't know who the main girl here is...

"lesbian", "caress"

that

"lesbian", "forced", "device"? I don't know, this is one of those pics I'd just tag "lesbian" and special event inside he json file if someone can come up with one.

Edit: I'd "special tag it" like a "female costumer attack" if the girl on the back is "MC", maybe it should even be a normal category?

[rudistoned]

Poor google...

Don't worry, I'm sure google is used to worse search terms...

Hundreds of tags could be great for 25000+ pics characters like Touhou, but they are unnecessary for 200+ pics characters, which often have 2-4 bj or les pics at best. Either we won't use most of events for them (and this is quite boring), or pictures won't  correspond to the text most of the time anyway.

I think that depends on how the events are coded. PyTFall often adds tidbits of text here or there if some condition is met. Detailed tags would be very useful for that approach.
The advantage detailed tagging provides is mainly for characters with many images, that is true. However, how do you suggest to find the image matching the current ingame situation best for characters with very many images? If the game does not know what's on the image, you will often end up with images not matching the event text even for characters that would have had a better image.

What about double dildo during les? Another tag, since they are both active?

No, only the situation of the main character is described. In this case, using the tags from Image Tagger 0.2: "-dildo", "one girl"

What about this or that pics, which tags we need for them?

For the first image and assuming the main character is the girl with the red horn: "-fondle", "one girl", "sad", "nude"
For the second image and assuming the main character is the girl lying on her back: "-undressing", "-bdsm", "afraid" and a number of clothing tags

[DarkTl]

Do we need magic tag as such? There are pics where girls casting a spell or something.

- meeting (subtag for girls who don't have date pics?) (or date + profile will do...)

I guess date+profile will be enough.

@Dark, I don't believe this is rare at all...

1-2 pics per girl at best. And I mean huge packs, like One Piece and larger. If you think it's enough, be my guess and code such events 

- sitting
- spoon

Not sure I understand what do you mean by sitting, since we have on top already.
As for spoon, it's almost doggy according to wiki. Do we need a separate tag for it?

submission:
(need some input here) (active here should mean that main character is punishing other participant(s), passive is assumed and should not be used otherwise.)
- amount of people in the picture available already as tags.
- restrained
- torture (when apparent?)

I wonder if we should use les tag for such pics.
Do we need spanking, lash, collar tags?

- bukkake (always without penetration?)

I think we should yse both bukkake and sex/anal for penetration.

- classic weapons
- modern weapons (includes futuristic kind?)

Magic?

- cosplay
- musician (music)

Dance.

What do you guys think about using +/- for active/passive indications btw??? I've realized while writing the above that in many cases it might work as well/better than active/passive.

It's kinda confusing to me, but if tags software will have decent tooltips/readme, I have no objections 

[Xela]

How does that make it less obscure in its meaning?

It's a main category to fall back to, obscure meaning is implied.

Working with thousands of tags is impossible for a hobbyist project.

The only high-quality alternative IMHO is the way Ashford Academy does it: Pre-defined events with text written especially for each image. That is great, but very hard to pull off for large amounts of images.

Both are impossible for PyTFall, however... The thing is that tagging system will mostly be used for random events (random as in events written for any girl in the game). My guess is that 99% of the modders when writing events for unique girl will use AA approach... Ren'Py makes that far to convenient.

I think it is possible. It works quite well in Pytherworld IMHO, if you give the game enough images that are decently tagged. I've been using Image Tagger for quite some time to add tags to a local image archive here for testing. Of course, occasionally you get an odd picture. With fine tuning, I believe this can be made a rare occasion.
The advantage you buy with this system is that it can create random events (combinations of images and text that are not pre-defined) that reflect the ingame situation relatively closely, even if nobody ever foresaw this exact situation. In addition, every content that is added to the database will make the system better (if the content is tagged accurately).

Maybe in half an year I will feel the same, if you remember I was against using python modules and special methods in my code half an year ago, now I can't get enough of those (Still against overuse of inheritance though... P ..cough th .. cough orld  )

If you don't use tags to dynamically match images to ingame situations, what do you need tags for? What you are suggesting sounds more like what Otherworld does, which you didn't like in the past.

Of course you can simplify the system, but the tradeoff is that you lose information. The less information you have, the less likely it is that the image matching routine will find a good image for your situation. If you want to have dynamic image matching, you need good tags. If you don't want to do all that tagging, don't go with dynamic matching. Let the image pack creators describe what they see on the images in terms of ingame text instead of tags.

Otherworld tries to have it both ways, use a simple tagging system and dynamically match images to ingame text. As you know, the results are quite generic.

I am planning to kill 95% of events in favor of simpler events based on existing images (so I almost always do checks for tags before event in launched).

Pay attention.

How can ("lesbian", "finger pussy", "active") in image 1 mean that Belldandy fingers another girls pussy (=active act) while in image 2 ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "active") means that Belldandys pussy is licked (=passive act)? I suppose you meant Im_2 should be ("lesbian", "lick pussy", "passive")? Even if that assumption is true, you lose either what Belldandy is actively doing ("passive" tag on image) or you lose what is done to her ("active" tag on image). Lost information is information you can't use to make the ingame text more interesting.

I realize that it might be almost as confusing as your approach but you pay attention as well. Also, see how many articles you can find suggesting that licking (as not being on the receiving side) pussy is "passive sex"... in fact, try finding one article from any reliable source...

I think we need to agree on describing either what's been done to MC of the event or what she's doing. If we use both, we'll require separate tags for every participant (prolly an overkill) and I don't see another solution.

I went with what is being "done" to the MC of a pic:

Image 1: while that girl fingers Belldandys pussy --> "finger pussy"
Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy"

From perspective of what's being done to the MC (active/passive means if she's active in the scene like giving a helping hand or doing something other than receiving the "punishment")

Image 1: Belldandy licks the pussy of another girl = "active"
Image 2: Belldandy fingers the pussy of another girl = "active"

active/passive is required to describe if Belldendy is doing "something" on the pic as may be reflection on her skill or willingness in the text.

Lesbian tag is not under any scrutiny. (I hope)

There is a loss of information, but otherwise we'd have to double almost every sex tag, I'd prefer to avoid that, but I've asked the team what they'd do in one of the above posts.

[DarkTl]

Well then, let's look at one of my packs.

First girl.
One, two, three, four, five.

Second girl
One, two, three.

Third girl
One, two.

Fourth girl
One, two, three.

Do we need any additional tags for these ones?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, don't forget about places tags and portrait tag.

[Xela]

Do we need magic tag as such? There are pics where girls casting a spell or something.

Might be useful, lets add it...

I guess date+profile will be enough.

Ok, I'll get rid of it.

Not sure I understand what do you mean by sitting, since we have on top already.

Usually considered two different positions, we can remove "sitting" if you think it's to much.

As for spoon, it's almost doggy according to wiki. Do we need a separate tag for it?

It states that it's also possible... not almost doggy? Oh, and it should be "spoons" or "spooning" I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoons_sex_position

I wonder if we should use les tag for such pics.

I don't believe so... only if there are no other les pics at all maybe. But them we might fall onto profile or come up with defaults (no heads/faces) for main categories and maybe even some sub categories (like in Valet Pletej).

Do we need spanking, lash, collar tags?

We have collar in the software I believe. Spanking is a nice catch, will be useful for slavetraining with a default pic as we will not have the luxury of "skipping" those interactions at all...

lash are VERY rare... and often hard to use because often the girl is lashed all over the body... we have to think of something here.

I think we should yse both bukkake and sex/anal for penetration.

Ok, I'll clarify that on the next tags review.

Magic?

- magic weapons as well than.

Dance.

We should have dancing in the software already (I am not listing all tags we'll use, tags that are in the software are either repeated here or I imply that we have them already)

It's kinda confusing to me, but if tags software will have decent tooltips/readme, I have no objections 

Yeah... it's either that or active/passive. We need to choose.


PS: Are there many "healing pics"? Without sex or anything like that? There are many healers/doctors/priests in games/manga/anime...

[Xela]

Do we need any additional tags for these ones?

Maybe:

- tired (high fatigue)
- gambling (possibly for the future)

rest should be doable...

Also, don't forget about places tags and portrait tag.

Software has them both already.

[rudistoned]

It's a main category to fall back to, obscure meaning is implied.

I see. Maybe "oralsex" or even "oral" would be a more obvious name for a category for oral sex tags?

My guess is that 99% of the modders when writing events for unique girl will use AA approach... Ren'Py makes that far to convenient.

I know. I always thought using Ashford Academies approach would be a good fit for PyTFall.

Also, see how many articles you can find suggesting that licking (as not being on the receiving side) pussy is "passive sex"...

It's not. Licking someone's pussy is an active act. No argument there. But getting your own pussy licked is passive. And that is exactly what I wrote that is happening in image 2.

Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy --> "lick pussy"

Remember that we agreed that tags describe what is happening to the main character? Well, the main character is Belldandy, and her pussy is being licked. That's passive. What's hard to understand here?

I went with what is being "done" to the MC of a pic:

Im_2: Should be: "lesbian",  "lick pussy", "active" + other relevant tags

No, you did not describe what is happening to the main character in image 2. The main character is Belldandy and her pussy is getting licked, which should get this image a "passive" tag according to your rules, because Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is getting licked. According to your rules, "active" implies that Belldandy is doing something and "lick pussy" implies that someone is licking a pussy. Since you used both tags, this means that Belldandy is licking the pussy of another woman. Now lets compare that to what I said is happening in image 2:

Image 2: while that girl licks Belldandys pussy

Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is being licked. Therefore, Belldandy is passive in regard to the "lick pussy" act. Therefore, the image should have a "passive" tag, not the "active" tag you gave it.

There is a loss of information, but otherwise we'd have to double almost every sex tag, I'd prefer to avoid that, but I've asked the team what they'd do in one of the above posts.

If you decide to keep it simpler because you don't need the additional information, I won't object. I just recommend not to rely on image tags to match images to ingame situations if you plan to use simple tags.

[Xela]

@Rudi

I have two questions about the software:

1)
You've said that you've already tagged the images, does it mean that you've used tags as those are in the software?

I want to know if it's to late to change tags like reading to read or resting to rest (we're used to that) but it would work either way.

2)
Please clarify on these tags:

exposed
-undressing
+undressing
pov (I think it's might be our profile tag)
generic (like a default?)

ignore/delete/move (I can guess but I am confused why they are in the front raw, where the most used tags should be so maybe they have other meaning)

Intended difference in:
singer from learn singing
musician from learn an instrument
dancer from learn dancing

is fondle better name for cuddle? (or at least acceptable name for cuddle?)

Difference between ffm sex to "partners": one guy, one girl
Difference between mmf sex to "partners": two guys

By "other people" do you mean people just stand there watching the act?

[DarkTl]

Are there many "healing pics"? Without sex or anything like that?

Not really. The only pro healer I have is Tsunade, and even she doesn't have any. A couple of characters have nurse costume though or cast some noncombat spell 

Btw, what about singing? Should it be a part of music or a separate tag?

Yeah... it's either that or active/passive. We need to choose.

Maybe we should just use tags like "MC is licking" and "MC is been licked" or something?
---------------------------

I believe we should make beta version of tags and start tagging. I'm sure there will be new questions about new tags from me during it.

[Xela]

I see. Maybe "oralsex" or even "oral" would be a more obvious name for a category for oral sex tags?

Without any shadow of a doubt, it would be, but blowjob is kinda a "historic" category on these forums that should have been called oral from the beginning... Also oral "might" imply tonging or " non bj type of licking", blowjob does not.

It's not. Licking someone's pussy is an active act. No argument there. But getting your own pussy licked is passive. And that is exactly what I wrote that is happening in image 2.Remember that we agreed that tags describe what is happening to the main character? Well, the main character is Belldandy, and her pussy is being licked. That's passive. What's hard to understand here?
No, you did not describe what is happening to the main character in image 2. The main character is Belldandy and her pussy is getting licked, which should get this image a "passive" tag according to your rules, because Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is getting licked. According to your rules, "active" implies that Belldandy is doing something and "lick pussy" implies that someone is licking a pussy. Since you used both tags, this means that Belldandy is licking the pussy of another woman. Now lets compare that to what I said is happening in image 2:Belldandy is not doing the licking, she is being licked. Therefore, Belldandy is passive in regard to the "lick pussy" act. Therefore, the image should have a "passive" tag, not the "active" tag you gave it.

I can't get though to you on this one... "active" and "passive" as I proposed basically describe if the MC participating in ANY WAY in the act or just does nothing but getting fucked.

Active Anal
Passive Anal

To be used in texts together with "mood" tags to describe her skill/libido during the jobs events for example...

If Belldandy is doing stuff to the other girl, it's active. Other tag describes WHAT is being DONE TO THE MC, not what the MC is doing.

If you decide to keep it simpler because you don't need the additional information, I won't object. I just recommend not to rely on image tags to match images to ingame situations if you plan to use simple tags.

As I've said, what we're trying to do here right now, is to find all the tags we think that we might require that are not in the software and "golden middle" on far to go with the tag amount.

[Xela]

Not really. The only pro healer I have is Tsunade, and even she doesn't have any. A couple of characters have nurse costume though or cast some noncombat spell 

- nurse then? We have miko in the software. No nurse that I could find but I've noticed lingerie... I though it was missing.

Maybe we should just use tags like "MC is licking" and "MC is been licked" or something?

Maybe, it's a lot less confusing...

I believe we should make beta version of tags and start tagging. I'm sure there will be new questions about new tags from me during it.

Not sure we're ready but ok, I'll make a new list and try to make a new layout for software.

[DarkTl]

- nurse then? We have miko in the software.

Yup. Maybe also offensive/nonoffensive tags for magic, and second one could be used as healing too.
Or maybe just one general "healing" tag for anything that resembles it.