Whore Master Patch

[crazy]

And your point is more than valid, a non slave should have the ability to quit and be more demanding of particular jobs that they like than normal slaves. That would be one of those obvious improvement I like so much

I agree non slaves should quit instead of running away and should be more demanding of jobs.  I know for a fact that I'll be making it to where non slaves quit instead of running away.  Making them more demanding is something for later on.  Akia is handling most of the girl changes though so maybe he will add that while I work on new places and such.

[kaneage]

Again i think we are having a linguistic issue rather than a functionality issue.

@Xela  "Try to describe a person of low spirit but in high spirits"

People who have high spirit tend to display happiness, courage, cheer, ect.  These things are fleeting however as a person with high spirit can also be sad, cowardly, gloomy and ect. and it works in vice versa with low spirit.  The thing is there IS a mechanic in the game that shows this. Happiness.  Happiness is ever changing ea turn either with work, assault, or candy. It always changes and and can do so quickly.  Now you can make the arguement that it is not what Happiness is or what it means, BUT the mechanic you describe repeatedly as "high spirits" i believe is the same mechanic as happiness in the game.  so there is an ingame working of high/low happiness paired with high/low spirit. 

"Love in WM...       but we're not debating that."

Neither was I. my example was completely out of WM context.  I wanted to show the arbitrary nature of the the word love and compare it to the word spirit.
to me the spirit mechanic reminds me of the Sex Skills mechanic. Heres what i mean...

Spirit                      Sex Skills
Courage                 Oral
Cheer                     Anal
Happiness              Group

Spirit is all of those things listed under it as are Sex skills all of its own.  the difference is the sex skills are actually divided up with seperate functions with in the game while spirit is not.  It is kept whole and used when any of those qualities below are needed for game mechanics.  Courage for rebelliousness? use spirit. Cheer for bar jobs? use spirit.  Happiness is in the game but im not sure if its tied to spirit thou im sure it is. im not saying spirit needs to be divided up, just showing the current way it works. then again maybe it does.

Regarding all of the slavery stuff, you took what i said to the extreme.  of course slaves were not all shells of themselves.  people can and do recover but as a person who works in the medical field I can personally attest to the mental scarring that occurs after traumatic events and i stand by what i said.  3 days v 3 years the patient will have a vastly different recovery road.   you said spirit is a long term stat so it takes a long time to break and a long time to repair.  people after these events can still be happy and laugh but in WM terms that is Happiness, not spirit.  Low spirit should make happiness hits larger if we going for realism. (not sure if that is how it works in game. just throwing that out there)

PS. after rereading my post my tone maybe a bit rough but i actually enjoy the debate. its late and im sure fatigue played into it

[Xela]

People who have high spirit tend to display happiness, courage, cheer, ect.

 For the love of god, you can keep making sh!t up in English as much as you please. BUT: Yours is a FALSE statement. People in High Spirits are happy and cheerful. 

This is what you mean:

 6  spirits  [plural]  : feelings of happiness or unhappiness 
▪ Spirits were low [=people were unhappy] after our team lost again.  ▪ We need to do something to lift your spirits. [=to make you feel better/happier]  ▪ It's hard work, but try to keep your spirits up. [=keep a happy and positive attitude]  ▪ We were all in high spirits [=happy, cheerful] after the game.  ▪ She was in low spirits. [=she was unhappy]  ▪ He's still in the hospital, but he's in good spirits. [=happy and positive] — see also  high-spirited,   low-spirited

In order to mean that it has to be in PLURAL!

This is what I mean:
The English word spirit comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning "breath", but also "spirit, soul, courage, vigor",

4 a  : a desire or determination to do something [count]  ▪ His many disappointments never broke his spirit. [=never took away his desire to succeed]  ▪ He has a strong fighting spirit. [noncount]  ▪ She's a good athlete with a lot of skill and spirit. 

and similar meanings I have written in previous posts.

Again i think we are having a linguistic issue rather than a functionality issue.

I have described how this is a functionality issue, quote that and counter with argument, not going to repeat myself again...

Now you can make the arguement that it is not what Happiness is or what it means, BUT the mechanic you describe repeatedly as "high spirits" i believe is the same mechanic as happiness in the game.  so there is an ingame working of high/low happiness paired with high/low spirit. 

Never described a mechanic 'high spirits', it is a lot like happiness in WM I suppose. Simply means that we don't need Spirit in a sense of 'spirits'.

"Love in WM...       but we're not debating that."

Neither was I. my example was completely out of WM context.  I wanted to show the arbitrary nature of the the word love and compare it to the word spirit.

And I countered your example by stating that love is similar in meaning while spirit and spirits are not or at least not as similar... Quote and try to see how your answer resonates with previous argument.

to me the spirit mechanic reminds me of the Sex Skills mechanic. Heres what i mean...

Spirit                      Sex Skills
Courage                 Oral
Cheer                     Anal
Happiness              Group

Spirit is all of those things listed under it as are Sex skills all of its own.  the difference is the sex skills are actually divided up with seperate functions with in the game while spirit is not.  It is kept whole and used when any of those qualities below are needed for game mechanics.  Courage for rebelliousness? use spirit. Cheer for bar jobs? use spirit.  Happiness is in the game but im not sure if its tied to spirit thou im sure it is. im not saying spirit needs to be divided up, just showing the current way it works. then again maybe it does.

I do not understand what you're trying to say here, at least not constructively.

Take yourself out of the WM universe and into RL for a minute for this example.  Picture 2 girls who were abducted and sold into slavery.  1 girl was rescued after 3 days while the other girl was rescued after 3 years.  how will their "spirits" differ? Id imagine that the girl rescued after 3 days, while still traumatic, will still be able to live a normal life afterward. The girl living that way for 3 years might be irreversibly damaged. Her "spirit", her positive emotion/aura/feeling may never return.

This is what i thought spirit in the game meant and why it decreased over time.  happiness is variable from day to day but a girls spirit is more long term.  High spirit makes me think the girl has hope. Thus the tie into rebellion.  People who are in high spirits tend to be more chipper rather than a shell of a person. this is the tie into the customer related jobs.  ultimately i feel spirit decreasing as a slave is how it should be. maybe to counter it free girls could have spirit increase.

Regarding all of the slavery stuff, you took what i said to the extreme.  of course slaves were not all shells of themselves.  people can and do recover but as a person who works in the medical field I can personally attest to the mental scarring that occurs after traumatic events and i stand by what i said.  3 days v 3 years the patient will have a vastly different recovery road.   you said spirit is a long term stat so it takes a long time to break and a long time to repair.  people after these events can still be happy and laugh but in WM terms that is Happiness, not spirit.  Low spirit should make happiness hits larger if we going for realism. (not sure if that is how it works in game. just throwing that out there)
 

Not sure what we are debating here either. You're the one who threw words like shell and irreversibly damaged. It's all relative, one can get really creative and inflect irreversible damage mentally even in 3 days. All of that is irrelevant for WM, we need to come to some kind of conclusion on what spirit stat should do in WM... Since you are comparing it's 'spirits' meaning to Happiness, why not simply use it in my context...

[b00marrows]

what about renaming "Spirit" to something more understandable?

[b00marrows]

options;
character, temperament, temper, persona, disposition, mind, will, will-power, attitude, bent, inclination, energy, ardor, desire, impetus, drive, urge, eagerness, zest, zeal, zealousness, fire, passion(s), enthusiasm, motivation, mettle, resolution

[Xela]

options;
character, temperament, temper, persona, disposition, mind, will, will-power, attitude, bent, inclination, energy, ardor, desire, impetus, drive, urge, eagerness, zest, zeal, zealousness, fire, passion(s), enthusiasm, motivation, mettle, resolution

LoL, we'll spent rest of your days arguing what energy, will and character mean

I think we're fine, Spirit makes sense in WM, maybe some tweaking is required thou. I am arguing cause we're making a game as well and it's a good practice to figure out how players view WM and stats in WM.

[b00marrows]

well to be honest i was SERIOUSLY confused about spirit, i dident know what it ment untill aika explained about it since than i realised it a common thing is games like this. but its commonly called other things; temperamnet , will-power, will, drive and enthusiasm seem to be most common.

that stat is one debate due to the LARGE amount of things that need to be taken into account for it, personaly Spirit should take a huge amount of info from the girls traits being enthisuastic, cheerfulla nd other things should increse it but having "BROKEN WILL" should lock it on 0, rather than have it as a normal stats i think it should be purely done by traits.

[CeeBod]

Heh interesting debate, but getting a little bogged down in semantics now    so how about a quick attempt to change the topic? -

I agree non slaves should quit instead of running away and should be more demanding of jobs.

I also agree that quitting rather than running away makes sense for the free girls, but there are a few things that bother me with the current way it plays out generally for free girls in WM - the backstory to a girl you meet in town deciding to come work for you is that she's destitute and therefore desperate, so you put her to work in your brothel.  Even on vanilla WM, I'd usually have new girls spend time training, and covering the non-sex jobs when they first start, purely because their sex stats are usually crap, and yet the girls would quite often refuse to work.  A broke, desperate girl rebelling at being asked to do some light cleaning work that I'm paying her for?  erm wut?  The being broke as motivation also doesn't really work later on, when a couple of months of waitressing seems to give the free girls enough money to buy more upgrades than I, the brothel owner can afford!
 
So, I'm not sure if this is practical, achievable or whatever, just proposing it in terms of a little added realism, but what about putting in some real financial pressures, and using that to drive free girls' rebelliousness?  For example, add a daily living cost for every girl - say 5 gold per slave girl (paid by you the owner) and 20 gold for a free girl (paid by the girl herself).  When she's poor (less gold than the price of a new pair of shoes maybe), then she has a big modifier to reducing rebelliousness - so she's likely to do even the jobs she hates, as she really needs the money.  Past that level her rebelliousness is back to normal until she reaches another gold threshold (or unless she drops back to poor after buying those new shoes she wanted!) - where she's now got enough saved up from working for you that she maybe starts to think she doesn't need to work for you any longer.  At that level she's much more likely to quit if you ask her to do something she doesn't want to - and PCLove and whatever stat is being used for job satisfaction become much more important.  If that affects game balance too much by making all the free girls quit after a few months, then maybe change the starting gold for free girls - can it be negative?  If so, then have free girls join you with debts to pay off - same deal, they're initially forced to do whatever you want them to by financial pressures, but you're going to have to take account of what they like/don't like doing, or sooner or later they will turn on you and tell you just where you can stick your job! (Or of course you can just go for the torture/enslave route or the love route to get them compliant enough)

[Xela]

Heh interesting debate, but getting a little bogged down in semantics now    so how about a quick attempt to change the topic? -I also agree that quitting rather than running away makes sense for the free girls, but there are a few things that bother me with the current way it plays out generally for free girls in WM - the backstory to a girl you meet in town deciding to come work for you is that she's destitute and therefore desperate, so you put her to work in your brothel.  Even on vanilla WM, I'd usually have new girls spend time training, and covering the non-sex jobs when they first start, purely because their sex stats are usually crap, and yet the girls would quite often refuse to work.  A broke, desperate girl rebelling at being asked to do some light cleaning work that I'm paying her for?  erm wut?  The being broke as motivation also doesn't really work later on, when a couple of months of waitressing seems to give the free girls enough money to buy more upgrades than I, the brothel owner can afford!
 
So, I'm not sure if this is practical, achievable or whatever, just proposing it in terms of a little added realism, but what about putting in some real financial pressures, and using that to drive free girls' rebelliousness?  For example, add a daily living cost for every girl - say 5 gold per slave girl (paid by you the owner) and 20 gold for a free girl (paid by the girl herself).  When she's poor (less gold than the price of a new pair of shoes maybe), then she has a big modifier to reducing rebelliousness - so she's likely to do even the jobs she hates, as she really needs the money.  Past that level her rebelliousness is back to normal until she reaches another gold threshold (or unless she drops back to poor after buying those new shoes she wanted!) - where she's now got enough saved up from working for you that she maybe starts to think she doesn't need to work for you any longer.  At that level she's much more likely to quit if you ask her to do something she doesn't want to - and PCLove and whatever stat is being used for job satisfaction become much more important.  If that affects game balance too much by making all the free girls quit after a few months, then maybe change the starting gold for free girls - can it be negative?  If so, then have free girls join you with debts to pay off - same deal, they're initially forced to do whatever you want them to by financial pressures, but you're going to have to take account of what they like/don't like doing, or sooner or later they will turn on you and tell you just where you can stick your job! (Or of course you can just go for the torture/enslave route or the love route to get them compliant enough)

You also kidnap girls, also get them from catacombs, easier to edit girlmeet script if you ask me. And girls rarely cost you more than they bring in, especially in vanilla.

[Marquis]

On refusing to do a job:


I find it strange that a girl with Happiness 100 and Obedience 100 should ever rebel when asked to do a non-sex job, even if her spirit and confidence are 100.
I also find it strange that girls start at Happiness 100 when they're slaves, captured, kidnapped, given by dad or destitute.
I think Happiness should start at 50, so it has room to be improved which would reduce rebelliousness instead of just scolding.


Rebelliousness could be something like:
Base rebelliousness = Spirit +Confidence -Obedience -Happiness
These could be weighted (e.g. Obedience x 1.5) to tweak the result.


There could be adjustments for:
job desirability (e.g. whore= +10 rebel) - this can also be affected by whethe a girl likes/dislikes a job
traits (e.g. nympho in sex job is -10 rebel, shy entertainer is +5 rebel)
high PCLove or PCFear
other stuff like a 'destitution' modifier.


Even without reducing spirit or confidence, making the girl happier or matching her job with her traits will make her more likely to obey.

[Xela]

On refusing to do a job:


I find it strange that a girl with Happiness 100 and Obedience 100 should ever rebel when asked to do a non-sex job, even if her spirit and confidence are 100.
I also find it strange that girls start at Happiness 100 when they're slaves, captured, kidnapped, given by dad or destitute.
I think Happiness should start at 50, so it has room to be improved which would reduce rebelliousness instead of just scolding.


Rebelliousness could be something like:
Base rebelliousness = Spirit +Confidence -Obedience -Happiness
These could be weighted (e.g. Obedience x 1.5) to tweak the result.


There could be adjustments for:
job desirability (e.g. whore= +10 rebel) - this can also be affected by whethe a girl likes/dislikes a job
traits (e.g. nympho in sex job is -10 rebel, shy entertainer is +5 rebel)
high PCLove or PCFear
other stuff like a 'destitution' modifier.


Even without reducing spirit or confidence, making the girl happier or matching her job with her traits will make her more likely to obey.

Wow... a really good post. This is something to consider.

[b00marrows]

thats a good point, never thought of it untill now. seems weird that you can make her have sex with stragers on a luck roll but she wont mop the floor on an unlucky one...

[Xela]

Another topic... Drugs. They should effect health, not happiness. That is something that is poorly designed.

[DarkTl]

If addict girl doesn't have enough money to buy them, she definitely will be unhappy.

[blind]

Are there any girl packs that work with the latest version?  Failing that are there any ways to modify existing packs to work.  Forgive my ignorance please.