Whore Master Patch

[Number76]

On a topic somewhat different than the balance between slave/free girls, I've a few small notes on traits:

- Incroporial is misspelled. The correct spelling is Incorporeal.

- The following traits do not change skills/stats. If they have no secondary effect then I think they do nothing.
  - Psychic
  - Fake Orgasim Expert
  - Tsundere
  - Twisted
  - Futanari
  - Different Colored Eyes
  - Strange Eyes
  - Cat Girl
  - Your Daughter
  - Incest

[Aika]

So your approach is not even close to being as bulletproof as you imagined.

Xela, do try to be a little bit more open minded. We're brainstorming ideas, not trying to score points for being right. You don't need to attack anyone that has a different opinion than you or a different understanding of a topic/definition/whatever. He didn't even try to imply that his approach was bulletproof, he just proposed his ideas for how it could be handled. Can we please try to work together here? I REALLY don't want to have to play the "I'm the one developing this so what I say goes" card.


On further inspection of the code, slaves and free girls both cost you upkeep based on their accomodation level already. Higher accomodation level makes the girl like you more and hate you less. As far as I can tell, this is one of only two ways to reduce slave girl hate, with the other way being giving the girl a house share of 30% or less. The accomodation level calculations also look like they're broken, a possible case of too many programmers working on the same part of the code making things work funny. I'll take a look at that part of the code later and make sure it works right. Right now it looks like slave girls cost 25 gold per accomodation level, while free girls only cost 20? Yeah, this is getting reworked. It's probably also the reason Love is so easy to increase on slaves, it looks like slaves get both the slave and the free girl bonuses for higher accomodation levels.

So making free girls pay you for their upkeep goes on the TODO list. They're already counted against the number of rooms in the brothel, and you pay upkeep for having them. They work for you, they live in your brothel, it's only fair they pay you for their food and rent.

I like the idea of having free girls choose their own accomodation level. If they're willing to pay the extra, they can have a better room. We can easily disable the player's ability to modify a free girl's accomodation level. The logic for determining what accomodation level the girl will choose will be a bit more difficult.

It would be easy to implement a 'freegirl' bonus in the jobs. The free girl works harder to take care of more customers and get more pay, because she wants to earn enough for better accomodations. Slaves have no such motivation. This makes sense to me.

So with what we're looking at, slaves and free girls will have the following advantages/disadvantages:
Slaves:
Obedient ++
You pay upkeep -
You pay for all equipment -

Free:
Bonus to job performance +
Pays own upkeep +
Will buy own equipment on free time +
Rebellious --

This seem about right?

[Aika]

On a topic somewhat different than the balance between slave/free girls, I've a few small notes on traits:

- Incroporial is misspelled. The correct spelling is Incorporeal.

- The following traits do not change skills/stats. If they have no secondary effect then I think they do nothing.
  - Psychic
  - Fake Orgasim Expert
  - Tsundere
  - Twisted
  - Futanari
  - Different Colored Eyes
  - Strange Eyes
  - Cat Girl
  - Your Daughter
  - Incest

Cat Girl is the only one there that is really useless, I think. Maybe Futanari too. All of the others have secondary effects buried in the code somewhere, and certain jobs have penalties or bonuses for having certain traits. Tsundere may attack customers (with my code changes), Fake Orgasm Expert DOES offset Slow Orgasms and gives an additional small boost (did I forget to list the bonuses in the file?), Your Daughter comes up on the child when you knock up one of your girls, Incest comes up on the child when you knock up your daughter, and certain negative traits (malformed, slow learner, retarded, etc) have a higher chance of showing up when you knock up a girl with both the Your Daughter and Incest traits.

I haven't bothered to go through the code to correct spellings. Don't expect me to go grammar/spelling nazi anytime soon either, unless it's something I trip over while I'm working on that part of the code.

[Number76]

Cat Girl is the only one there that is really useless, I think. Maybe Futanari too. All of the others have secondary effects buried in the code somewhere, and certain jobs have penalties or bonuses for having certain traits. Tsundere may attack customers (with my code changes), Fake Orgasm Expert DOES offset Slow Orgasms and gives an additional small boost (did I forget to list the bonuses in the file?), Your Daughter comes up on the child when you knock up one of your girls, Incest comes up on the child when you knock up your daughter, and certain negative traits (malformed, slow learner, retarded, etc) have a higher chance of showing up when you knock up a girl with both the Your Daughter and Incest traits.

I don't have a problem with traits not modifying a girl's core stats. I just wanted to make you and crazy aware of this. I'd also like to add MILF to the list of traits that doesn't modify a girl's skills/stats.

I also double checked Fake Orgasm Expert, it does not add anything to a girl's stats or skills when present by itself, which is fine. However when it is paired with Slow Orgasms, it further penalizes all of a girl's sex skills by -2. That seems like a bug to me.

[crazy]

I haven't bothered to go through the code to correct spellings. Don't expect me to go grammar/spelling nazi anytime soon either, unless it's something I trip over while I'm working on that part of the code.

I wouldn't even bother fixing spelling cause it will just break existing girls...  If people really start to make alot of girl packs again then maybe but otherwise I wouldn't that way people don't have to fix the already made packs.

[Popuri]

I do like the point about slaves and weapons.  Slaves not being allowed to serve as security would be a good and logical move, in my opinion.

Kind of an odd implementation that I was talking about earlier...

When a girl does a job that uses spirit in its calculation, add an 'if' statement to check if they are a slave.  If they are a slave, then use their spirit, up to a max of the value of PCLove.  Like :

int val = spirit;
if (val > PCLove)
{
     val = PCLove;
}

Pseudo-code, obviously, I forget the exact function call to access stat values, but should get my idea across.  Not perfect, but it's a way of adding a hurdle for a slave without crippling their performance.  Slaves _could_  be as good as a free girl at a job, but only if the PC has treated them well.  A slave who feels cherished would be more motivated to perform.

As well, not sure if it was in this thread earlier and I missed it, but how hard would it be to add something like a 'Job Agency'?  A place to hire Free Girls similar in format to the Slave Market.

[Aika]

I also double checked Fake Orgasm Expert, it does not add anything to a girl's stats or skills when present by itself, which is fine. However when it is paired with Slow Orgasms, it further penalizes all of a girl's sex skills by -2. That seems like a bug to me.

Ok, there's a bug in there somewhere. Fake Orgasm Expert should be negating Slow Orgasms and adding an additional +2 to all the sex skills. I'll have to dig in the code to find that little gremlin. It might just be a typecase error. Slow Orgasms by itself subtracts 2 from the sex skills.

[Romanul]

Regarding accommodation, may you can link it to the level of the brothel. For example, if a brothel is level one then it will only allow for accommodation up to level 3 (a random number i picked). You would have to upgrade your brothel to level 2 in order to allow for a higher accommodation.


Why the bother with upgrading the brothel?! Well it gives a money sink which is always good and can add further depth to the game.
Also, depending on how hard to code would be, you could make that the higher the level of the hotel:
-  the lower the number of rooms ( they are larger thus take more space).
- the more expensive the upkeep (harder to clean etc)
Just my two cents.
 

[Number76]

On further inspection of the code, slaves and free girls both cost you upkeep based on their accomodation level already. Higher accomodation level makes the girl like you more and hate you less. As far as I can tell, this is one of only two ways to reduce slave girl hate, with the other way being giving the girl a house share of 30% or less. The accomodation level calculations also look like they're broken, a possible case of too many programmers working on the same part of the code making things work funny. I'll take a look at that part of the code later and make sure it works right. Right now it looks like slave girls cost 25 gold per accomodation level, while free girls only cost 20? Yeah, this is getting reworked. It's probably also the reason Love is so easy to increase on slaves, it looks like slaves get both the slave and the free girl bonuses for higher accomodation levels.

So increasing a girl's accommodation level does do something. I never saw any obvious affect from changing it, so I assumed that it was a broken or half implemented feature. Then again I never tested it in detail either.

This also likely explains the fact that I have sometimes seen girls auto-magically fall in love with the player when they've been effectively ignored. What I've seen basically amounts to:

1. Acquire a girl and put her in some random job.
2. Continue to play for awhile, say 10 weeks.
3. Examine the girl and note that her feelings toward the player have improved. Given enough time she's head over heels in love.

On that note, perhaps pclove increases should be capped at a certain level without the player's personal interaction. There might be a few exceptions (stalker girl who follows you everywhere and writes creeply detailed fantasies in her diary every night) but the majority of girls aren't going to think that the player is her true love without a little personal attention.

So making free girls pay you for their upkeep goes on the TODO list. They're already counted against the number of rooms in the brothel, and you pay upkeep for having them. They work for you, they live in your brothel, it's only fair they pay you for their food and rent.

I like the idea of having free girls choose their own accomodation level. If they're willing to pay the extra, they can have a better room. We can easily disable the player's ability to modify a free girl's accomodation level. The logic for determining what accomodation level the girl will choose will be a bit more difficult.

I think both of these ideas are great. Please do implement them.

[Xela]

Xela, do try to be a little bit more open minded. We're brainstorming ideas, not trying to score points for being right. You don't need to attack anyone that has a different opinion than you or a different understanding of a topic/definition/whatever. He didn't even try to imply that his approach was bulletproof, he just proposed his ideas for how it could be handled. Can we please try to work together here? I REALLY don't want to have to play the "I'm the one developing this so what I say goes" card.

Was 05:05 in the morning after a day and a night figuring out stuff in Python, PyGame, Photoshop that I did not understand.

So making free girls pay you for their upkeep goes on the TODO list. They're already counted against the number of rooms in the brothel, and you pay upkeep for having them. They work for you, they live in your brothel, it's only fair they pay you for their food and rent.

I like the idea of having free girls choose their own accomodation level. If they're willing to pay the extra, they can have a better room. We can easily disable the player's ability to modify a free girl's accomodation level. The logic for determining what accomodation level the girl will choose will be a bit more difficult.

 How did we get here? Free girls already pay you a cut of their earnings... this suggestion just complicates the game.
 Also, since it is your brothel, you should set the rules and pay for things like rooms and nice furniture, what I meant earlier by upkeep  are sleeping quarters and meals for slaves. If you are willing, this is something that you can make game more interesting with, if player is willing to pay more cash for slave upkeep, slaves are happier, there is a lower chance to rebel and maybe even a better work enthusiasm.
 
 Free girls on the other hand would prefer to live in the city and in their own apartment, I do not understand what 'accommodations' are supposed to mean for a free maid, free guard or a free stripper/whore. Many of free girls might have a family, own home, hobbies and stuff like that...

 So in short my original proposal was to have free girls pay for their own PERSONAL needs without players interference. While at the same time you cover slave girl's personal/lively needs.

 PS: BTW, I am not trying to be right all the time, I am trying to root out ideas that are clear, make sense and are easy to explain to players so you could make a game that is fun, makes sense, easy to play and one that is not counterintuitive.

 Edit: 'Easy to play' is not the right choice of words. I mean a game that is does not require instructions to explain a manual on how to play the game and why game mechanics work as they do.

[DarkTl]

I mean don't you think that girl you just enslaved that your now making whore herself to anyone would be telling everyone that you enslaved her?

Exactly. I personally think that enslavement, even "voluntary", should at least cost you money to bribe guards, and perhaps lower your reputation among clients, especially if new slave has marks of torturing (I mean scars traits, broken will and so on).

[b00marrows]

Exactly. I personally think that enslavement, even "voluntary", should at least cost you money to bribe guards, and perhaps lower your reputation among clients, especially if new slave has marks of torturing (I mean scars traits, broken will and so on).

2 things;
 1. i don't think slaves are aloud to talk (if they do bad things happen/they aren't trusted)
 2. due to the use of rep at the moment reducing it because you made a slave makes no sense ...  on the other hand it should lower disposition(think it already dose this) and put a minor boost on "suspicion" maybe?

[DarkTl]

i don't think slaves are aloud to talk (if they do bad things happen/they aren't trusted)

Perhaps, but they may have relatives or friends, so it doesn't really matter.

due to the use of rep at the moment reducing it because you made a slave makes no sense ...  on the other hand it should lower disposition(think it already dose this) and put a minor boost on "suspicion" maybe?

WM already has disposition and suspicion penalties for enslavement. However both of them have minimal influence on game process, so obviously something should be changed.

[Xela]

WM already has disposition and suspicion penalties for enslavement. However both of them have minimal influence on game process, so obviously something should be changed.

Yeah, loads can be improved... there should be some form a psychological trauma to the girl and maybe some consequences as random attack from relatives/friends as well. Maybe some sort of a learning curve for a slave, I mean, until you can set her at work. Something easy, no point in entering Slave Maker territory here.

[Kenki]

@Aika,
Thanks for the defense, but I wasn't all that bothered by the original response. To be honest, I did feel that my post was lacking something, some of the ideas in my head were a little...disconnected.

@Xela,
To be clear, I was trying to ponder the motivations that would be behind the actions of a 'Free Girl' and a Slave. I was thinking back to early American History, and for the most part, Class Mobility is a driving goal for many Freemen. In the world of Crossgate (WM) that may not be a realizable goal, as you pointed out. Even still, there should be motivations and what those are and what effects they will cause could be useful to know.

If you are a Slave(in WM), what motivates you each day? How hard do you work, and why? Ask the same questions if you are a Free individual. What are your motivations? The differences in the answers to both types of persons(Slave & 'Free Girl') may provide insight in how to balance them in-game. These kinds of advantages/disadvantages could be added to the game.


Switching topics, when I was contemplating accommodations (upkeep), I imagined that each brothel had a set of rooms(upstairs?) that could be used for lodging. But while a Brothel may employ up to 20 girls, maybe only 10 rooms were available. As the PC, you could provide for 10 girls at a time, and the other 10 would have to lodge elsewhere. This means at a minimum, 10 would have to be 'Free Girls'. You could as well have only 5 Slaves, and 'Rent' out the remaining 5 rooms to 'Free Girls' you are employing. In this case, I am just picking random numbers, no thought as to balancing yet, but this mechanic--while maybe difficult to code--also limits Player choices. Something that may not be desirable.


Switching to "Slaves as Security", my initial reaction is, who cares if a Player wants to arm a Slave? If the PC wants to risk arming a Slave who will later rebel and escape with a few other slaves, so be it. Just because it isn't a wise decision, doesn't mean it should be coded as impossible to make. I could imagine a rare situation where a slave becomes so infatuated with the PC where she would willing serve his every command, and she could be trusted with weapons. I am thinking of a Shampoo(Ranma 1/2) personality type, who would literally do anything if she thought it would please her master. Would it be completely unreasonable to trust her with weapons and the task of protecting your Brothel?

However, if it is easily possible to train Slaves to have that undying-devotion to their Master, how would that affect their balances with 'Free Girls'. A Slave motivated by pure love to that degree, would be nearly as effective at performing jobs as a 'Free Girl'. Even better at some as she wouldn't refuse her Master's commands. Though I supsect that even a 'Free Girl' could be trained to the same degree and she might be willing to take a steep pay-cut, if she thought it would benefit her Love. I suppose the conclusion that could be made from this, is that their needs to be a balance to the PCLove stat that girls will have. There would need to be downward pressures on the stat to prevent a Player from easily making all girls in his employ madly in love with him that they would heed his every beckon and demand nothing in return.


Just some further thoughts. As Aika said, I am only throwing this out as brainstorming ideas.