Stat based Traits

[Graen]

I'd like to see some/most traits be based on actual stats in the game.  Traits would still confer their bonuses, and certain combinations would unlock other rare traits as well.

For instance, Breast Size could be a stat, where 50 or less would confer the Small Boobs trait, 100-200 would be Large Boobs and 201-255 would be Enormous Boobs.  Multiple Breast Enlargement/Reduction potions could be used to get the desired breast size.

Traits could still affect stats as well, i.e. Large Boobs adding to the Charisma Stat, Enormous Boobs reducing Agility, etc.

The Same 0-255 scale (or any dev-chosen range) could be applied to the Obedience Stat, for traits like Iron Will, Meek, Broken Will, Dependent etc...

Doing this with addictions would also make the player invest more into curing his whores, as well as allowing addictions to be progressively worse to deal with.  For example a high Vira-Blood Addict would stop working, and if it got bad enough, then eventually run away to get inseminated by the plant.

Virginity could be calculated for new whores based on the total value of her sex stats, and then be removed after she's had intercourse.  For instance, if you acquired a new whore and her total sex stats were over 100, then she would not be given the Virgin trait to start with.

Obviously, some traits would be difficult to work into this system, racial traits being a prime example, those and other unique traits should however have a more powerful affect on stats making them traits to be prized or loathed.

[letmein]

IIRC, we had a discussion along some of these lines a month or two ago.  I think the main gist of it was "good idea, but let's wait for the building update".  Since we're only handful of days away from that, it's probably a good time to bring this up again.

On the whole, I rather agree with you.  Some traits wouldn't fit into this sort of system, obviously, but a lot of the "generic" ones that are given to the majority of girls would.  The main problem with this, though, is that all the current girls would have to be edited.  That alone makes this pretty unlikely, and overall there are certainly other things that can and should be worked on first - gangs, for instance, as well as endings.

[Graen]

The main problem with this, though, is that all the current girls would have to be edited.

The way I see it the majority of the girls, that come with the game, are already in need of a desperate overhaul.  (That's another topic!)  Also, it seems to me, the hardest part of creating new girls is the graphical content required for each girl.  Stats and Summaries for each girl take little time compared to the time gathering, sorting and modifying all the appropriate images.

Due to the modability of the game, once a new system is in-place it shouldn't be long before girl-packs are being created/recreated to take advantage of the new system.

[letmein]

Perhaps.  I happen to know, however, that the two most prolific pack creators are both quite reluctant to do anything of the sort - any revamping would have to be done by third parties.  It's not impossible, of course, but expecting someone else to do the work magically won't get you anywhere.

My basic view is that this is still worth doing, but there's no good reason to start immediately.  We're already past the point where it would be easy to do, and waiting won't make it much worse.

[zodiac44]

We'd need to remake the framework for girls, then write a legacy handler that would assume a certain value for each stat that a girl doesn't have in the XML file.  With that in place, any girls that aren't updated will still work, though they will tend to look the same stat-wise.  As an example, if we were to add a breast size stat to the girls, then the default size could be, say "34 C."  If a girl has the "Big Boobs" trait, the default size could be "36 DD;" "Small boobs" might be "32 B."  Then changes to breast size in game could alter the traits a girl has: a girl with 34 C boobs gets implants, changing her to 34 DD and as a result of the new size, she is granted the "Big Boobs" trait.

With a legacy handler, we could implement new stats for girls without worrying that the vast majority of girl packs were built without the new stats.  I suspect it would work similar to the way random girls are assigned stat values, though the stat ranges would be defined by the game (probably in the config file).

[letmein]

I'd like a bit more variation, though.  That's obviously not an issue with random girls, but unless you make the unique girls random on this point (which I, personally, wouldn't really mind - others might), you'll have all of them stuck on the same three values.

[DocClox]

A couple of thoughts on assigning traits to values:

Firstly, it pretty much destroys traits as traits and makes them each into skills/characteristics. Not necessarily a bad thing - it would even simplify some areas of code. But there are advantages to having some attributes as binary values. I can't imagine anyone being 25% an asassin, for instance. Or 75% virgin for that matter.

Second point is that I'm not sure how much use this is going to be. Boobs, for instance are going to tend to be 0% 50% or 100%, basically because people think of these things in extremes.

So my suggestion is that we keep the trait system as it is. That said, if anyone can make a compelling case for promoting a trait to a characteristic, I'd be willing to consider the change. But I think I'd prefer to do this on a case-by-case basis.

[zodiac44]

I'd like a bit more variation, though.  That's obviously not an issue with random girls, but unless you make the unique girls random on this point (which I, personally, wouldn't really mind - others might), you'll have all of them stuck on the same three values.

Yeah, my example had just the basics.  In previous discussions of similar topics it was proposed that new values be assigned within a range, similar to the way it was done with random girls.

A couple of thoughts on assigning traits to values:

Firstly, it pretty much destroys traits as traits and makes them each into skills/characteristics. Not necessarily a bad thing - it would even simplify some areas of code. But there are advantages to having some attributes as binary values. I can't imagine anyone being 25% an asassin, for instance. Or 75% virgin for that matter.

Second point is that I'm not sure how much use this is going to be. Boobs, for instance are going to tend to be 0% 50% or 100%, basically because people think of these things in extremes.

So my suggestion is that we keep the trait system as it is. That said, if anyone can make a compelling case for promoting a trait to a characteristic, I'd be willing to consider the change. But I think I'd prefer to do this on a case-by-case basis.

I don't think it would work for most of the traits, but there are some that might (boobs, elegant, charming, great figure - to name a few, some would require additional stats in order to work).

[exodia91]

I have a question. What would this add to the game? It seems it just gives traits..... numbers, without actually changing anything. Would having 25% boobs give more looks then 20%? As its been presented now this just... looks like its pointless' cousin once removed. Besides, I do NOT want to go through all 50+ girls I've made and try to judge their breast % by a bunch of pictures that all have different sizes.

[zodiac44]

It's just a suggestion, and it goes along with the idea of expanding stats.  I understand that you don't want to go back and adjust a ton of girls you made - that's fine, no one is asking you to.  This is all just in theory right now, but the only reasonable way to implement it would require legacy handling of girls that don't have the new stats in their XML files, so you don't have to make a single change at all.

[LordShame]

The traits are at their best when they are flavorful and descriptive, and at their least interesting when they are almost entirely redundant with a stat. The biggest offender is "Charismatic", and I'm not even talking about the bonus it gives. There might as well be a "Beautiful" trait. If a girl's charismatic, give her a high charisma stat, you know? To a lesser degree, other traits such as "Charming", "Tough", "Fragile", "Fleet of Foot" and "Strong Magic" seem to fall in the same category. I mean, is there really a difference between being "Fragile" and having extremely low constitution? And if there is, why? If a girl with 100 Constitution acquires "Fragile", does it really mean she's become fragile, or is she just not as tough as she used to be?

It seems to me that these traits would be better used as indicators than modifiers. If a girl has over 70 Charisma (or any arbitrary number that seems appropriate), she would get the Charismatic trait, only the trait itself wouldn't do anything, it'd just be there to tell you the girl has high charisma without straight up shoving a number in your face.

On the other hand, traits like "Elegant", "Good kisser", "Long legs", "Small scars", "Clumsy", "Cool person" and "Nerd" are wonderful, because they're important and flavorful details, or stuff that doesn't need to (or can't) be defined in terms of numbers. And the fact that they modify stats is sensible. I mean, if a girl has Horrific Scars, and I remove these scars during the game, it's entirely logical that she gets those 5 points of Beauty back, and on top of that there's a strong role-play element involved. So these traits are basically all advantage and, in my opinion, fine as they are. (Though their specific effects could probably do with some slight rebalancing in certain cases.)

[The Alpacalypse]

I like the idea of certain traits being more flags than actual bonuses, especially for the stats like charisma that we can't see in game.  If a "Breast Size" stat were introduced eventually, the current Breast Size traits could then function as flags for that, as well.  Hell, it wouldn't even need to be a realistic number, just leave it from 0 to 100 and it would still work fine.  Only issue would be where to draw the lines between "Small Boobs", normal-sized ones, "Big Boobs", and "Abnormally Large Boobs".

[zodiac44]

Hmmm...I could see something like that, where the trait becomes more of a flag than anything else.  Perhaps they could function similar to fetishes, only be trigger by stat levels instead of the current trait system?

[exodia91]

The traits are at their best when they are flavorful and descriptive, and at their least interesting when they are almost entirely redundant with a stat. The biggest offender is "Charismatic", and I'm not even talking about the bonus it gives. There might as well be a "Beautiful" trait. If a girl's charismatic, give her a high charisma stat, you know? To a lesser degree, other traits such as "Charming", "Tough", "Fragile", "Fleet of Foot" and "Strong Magic" seem to fall in the same category. I mean, is there really a difference between being "Fragile" and having extremely low constitution? And if there is, why? If a girl with 100 Constitution acquires "Fragile", does it really mean she's become fragile, or is she just not as tough as she used to be?

It seems to me that these traits would be better used as indicators than modifiers. If a girl has over 70 Charisma (or any arbitrary number that seems appropriate), she would get the Charismatic trait, only the trait itself wouldn't do anything, it'd just be there to tell you the girl has high charisma without straight up shoving a number in your face.

On the other hand, traits like "Elegant", "Good kisser", "Long legs", "Small scars", "Clumsy", "Cool person" and "Nerd" are wonderful, because they're important and flavorful details, or stuff that doesn't need to (or can't) be defined in terms of numbers. And the fact that they modify stats is sensible. I mean, if a girl has Horrific Scars, and I remove these scars during the game, it's entirely logical that she gets those 5 points of Beauty back, and on top of that there's a strong role-play element involved. So these traits are basically all advantage and, in my opinion, fine as they are. (Though their specific effects could probably do with some slight rebalancing in certain cases.)

1. there is a charisma stat ;3

2. You could argue, with slightly varying levels of credibility, that every stat should fall on one side or the other. I would go into a blow by blow account of why all your examples should reversed, just to prove this point, but that would be tedious and pointless.I will instead give you a couple examples

     a Charismatic, a person with an oddly drawing personality that people seem to flock to, you can't train this sorta leadership people! (change the flavor text around and you can no longer describe it with numbers, see?)
     b. Nerd = High intelligence stat (not so unique and descriptive all on its own now, is it?)
     c. Clumsy = very low agility stat ( ^^ see above snarky comment)

as you can see, whether or not every single stat could or couldn't be described in numbers, is solely limited by your preferences and imagination. Thus, if you stat-ified one trait, you'd have to do them all.


ninja edit: now that I think about it..... I wouldn't mind having every trait have a stat..... so long as there's ways to increase/decrease them all, you could have totally customizable girls. But all the work I'd have to do on existing girls T_T

[letmein]

I think LS has made the best argument, here.  I understand how much redoing some of these girls would suck, but some of the traits are really atrocious.  Still, I think my original point remains, which is that this is far from an urgent action to take, and at this point waiting for a couple more updates wouldn't make a difference either way.  There are better things to focus on for the next month or two.

In a completely unrelated point, I'm apparently an epic typist whilst drunk.  Huh.