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Author Topic: Stat based Traits  (Read 15000 times)

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Offline Graen

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2010, 04:00:01 AM »
When I originally started this topic I had written down that I wanted every trait to be based on a stat.  I quickly realized that wasn't going to be possible, as well as that would limit the diversity of the traits.

Some people mentioned using traits as flags for certain stats, which I think is all well and good, but I still believe traits should confer a bonus or penalty and be meaningful.

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I'll go back to the boobies traits... cause I like boobies.  :P

Say a girl had few points into the breasts stat.  She would end up with the "Small Boobs" trait.  Well, what does the "Small Boobs" trait offer?  We could say that it's tagged as a fetish and she'll earn a bonus for her customers who like that fetish.

Now let's say we had a girl who's breast stat earned her the "Big Boobs" trait.  Would that be a fetish, or something pretty common in what customers are after?  Instead of being a fetish, maybe it instead adds to her "Looks" stat.

Next we come to the girl who's been blessed (or cursed) with "Abnormally Large Boobs" as it's currently called.  Well, that's certainly a fetish, but does it improve her looks?  Perhaps her big titties are a pain in the neck, and the trait decreases her Agility, while also fulfilling a fetish.

Finally we come to the girl with the breast stat somewhere between small and big... Normal Boobs.  Is that a trait?  Why would someone get a bonus or a penalty for being normal?  Here there really isn't a reason to apply a trait... her tits go unnoticed.  (My apologies to all the ladies out there with normal boobs, I still wuv you!)

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Now then let's go back to the girl with the "Big Boobs" trait for a minute.  She's got just the right size breasts to earn her this trait.  As it so happens, she has enough points in the "Looks" department from items, other traits and her base stats, that her +looks bonus from her "Big Boobs" traits, pushes her "Looks" stat to a whole new plateau earning her the "Great Figure" trait, which increases her Charisma stat helping her to attract more customers.

That is what I mean by traits being affected by stats, and those traits in-turn affecting other stats.

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One thing that always bugged me was the Adventurer and Assassin traits.  Two traits that basically do the same thing, (+combat skills/stats) and that I've seen, multiple times, both of them on the same girl.

But when we think of the two, they are completely different kinds of people, who happen to share similar abilities.  But while an adventurer may seek out battle, they do it for completely different reasons than an assassin.  So how do we differentiate the two, while keeping their core ideals?

Let's say that both traits require a certain amount of points in combat stats, whether it be Magic Ability, Combat Ability, a Combination of the two, or perhaps more appropriate an average of the two.  (Allowing both mages and adventurers to have the traits without worry of the other ability.)

So they both require x number of points, how do we keep them seperated?  Well, we have two other stats we can look at here, Obedience and Spirit.  Until someone clarifies what Spirit actually is, I'll use it as a substitute for Morality.  It's fairly obvious, that a divide in Morality would separate the two traits, a murderer of people see's things a bit differently than someone who see's conflict for treasure and excitement.  Even if we ignored the Spirit stat and stuck with just Obedience, is an Assassin going to be loyal to a lowly brothel owner?  Perhaps they might, but for simplicity's sake, let's say they won't for now.

We've just separated those two traits, based on stats that are already in the game.  Even so, we could add a new stat that would be more relevant to good vs evil, if Spirit wasn't in fact that stat already, which is an assumption on my part.

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This brings us to the caveat about moving all the traits to be based on stats.  Changing every single trait to be stat based can quickly lead to the creation of too many frivolous stats.  Already there are 32 stats (including skills) that are part of the character editor, there are also other stats like "Looks" and "Pregnancy" as well.

Any trait that would be modified to be stat based, and any stat that would be created to accommodate this should be weighed on it's own merits and what synergies it would provide to other stats and traits.

For this I'm going to give one last example...

Say there was in fact a "Morality" stat, and say we had a girl who was tagged with the "Not Human" trait.  Also for the sake of argument she did not have the "Cat Girl" or "Construct" trait.  She instead, was marked with the "Demon" trait.  And furthermore the "Demon" trait happens to confer a penalty of -100 to the "Morality" stat.

What happens to her if over the course of the game she gets her "Morality" stat to Zero?  (Assuming a -100 to 100 value range for the "Morality" stat.)  Does she remain a demon?  What if she stays a demon until her "Morality" stat reaches 50, where upon an event notification reaches the player and she is transformed into an Angel, removing her "Demon" trait and replacing it with the "Angel" trait.

Using that same method, we could turn our Assassins into Adventurers and vis versa.  And with enough prodding turn our Angel back into a Demon.

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Right now there is no "Angel" trait, nor a "Morality" stat.  And some traits are truely unique to their own set of circumstances, like "Not Human," "Sterile" & "One Eye."  Others are conflicting with stats of their own.  Does the "Lesbian" trait affect the "Lesbian Sex" skill, or should the skill, when high enough, apply the trait?

Some people have pointed out that some traits are redundant, and some are so unique unto themselves they could not be stat based.

This is why I removed the wording that suggested that all traits should be stat based.

I'm going to steal some wording from a few games here... but what if we start first by looking at the traits and when they would occur.

Start by separating traits into Common, Uncommon, Rare and Unique.  ;)

Common traits would be the ones to be most reasonably affected by stats.

Uncommon traits would occur when a girl meets certain requirements such as giving birth, or being a virgin.

Rare traits would be those that affect few girls, and not always stat dependent. such as being a "Demon" or having "Scars."  Traits which themselves are mutable with time and effort, and perhaps a bit of coin.

Unique Traits would be perminate marks upon a girl, that would be defined in her character profile, such as "Not Human" or "Construct."

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There are already a lot of traits and stats in the game.  And I can understand why the thought of adding more, or changing their nature would not appeal to some people.  But I would also like to point out that 1.30 is going to bring some drastic changes to Jobs in this game.  In my opinion from what I've read on the dev forums, there will be far too many jobs, but I will reserve judgment until after the new version is released.

But I also believe, work on this game isn't going to stop with 1.30, and that there will be a 1.40 and even a 1.50.  The more planning and work that goes on with this game, the better and better it will become.

Finally I apologize if anyone here feels like I'm stepping on anyone's toes with the changes I've proposed here.

Thank You.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 04:02:37 AM by Graen »

Offline The Alpacalypse

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2010, 08:52:52 AM »
I've always assumed that "Spirit" referred to the girl's "Fighting Spirit", a measure of how willing she was to put up with your shit (High Spirit = "FUCK YOU!"), and it interacted with Obedience (and whether or not she's a slave) to determine a girl's Rebelliousness.

Mana, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have much impact at all in game.  In fact, I've no freaking clue what it even does, other than sit there.  Would it be possible to alter Mana so it functioned more like a Morality stat?

Also, it's possible to have high intelligence and not be a nerd.  I think.  I dunno, to me nerd is pretty much synonymous with "gamer".

exodia91

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 03:21:52 PM »
1. Spirit is.... for lack of a better word, self-confidence, it acts with several other factors to create rebel, as well as a girls decisions such as running away, etc.

2. Mana affects a girls fights, I think, but since combat is resolved behind the scenes, No ones really sure how it comes into play.

3. I don't think its that simple to change a person from being one thing to another, I know in my previous post I said <3 totally customizable girls, but that was just a joke/passing fancy. You don't stop being an assassin and having that set of skills just because you find a moral center, or because your combat stats are slightly different. And you don't become an angel or demon just because you're a good or bad person, that's ridiculous, and it cheapens the traits. Radically changing who and what a girl is just because a player fucked around with her stats is.... for lack of a better word, total bullcrap. A few traits this might make sense, but take it too far and suddenly unique girls aren't so unique, just a collection of different pictures.

Offline The Alpacalypse

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 04:20:57 PM »
1) There's already a confidence stat, though.  Hmm...should probably look into maybe re-naming some of the stats so they're more self-explanatory.

2) Yeah, see, no one's really sure.  Kinda sucks, but I'm sure once 1.30 is out, we can work on refining some things.

3) Yeah, I agree with you there.  If "Not Human" or "Construct" would be considered "Unique Traits" then why not "Demon"?  Although, with the current item set, there are ways to remove both.

Basically, in order to really get into the meat of the game, we need to wait and see what 1.30 does to it.  Unless it's already been decided and detailed in the Development section, in which case ignore me.  I don't venture into that section; it's all way over my head. :(

Offline Graen

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2010, 04:37:51 PM »
Radically changing who and what a girl is just because a player fucked around with her stats is.... for lack of a better word, total bullcrap. A few traits this might make sense, but take it too far and suddenly unique girls aren't so unique, just a collection of different pictures.

Really? Because with all the girls that come with the game right now (Not including player-created expansions), I feel that only one of them is Unique, and that would be Astaroth, and only because she's the only girl that is sterile.

All the other girls, are essentially the same girl just with different pictures.  Some are more rebelious, sure, but they can easily be tamed.  And because of the random girls, there are countless other demons, and cat-girls littering my brothels.

This is a far different issue than basing traits on stats and vis versa, this is a problem with over-population, and allowing the player to do whatever he wants to any girl, either through actions or items.

Basically, in order to really get into the meat of the game, we need to wait and see what 1.30 does to it.  Unless it's already been decided and detailed in the Development section, in which case ignore me.  I don't venture into that section; it's all way over my head. :(

AFAIK, 1.30 is dedicated to mainly increasing the amount of jobs in the game for girls to perform.  Along with a with other tweaks to the way the game handles the system.

Offline DocClox

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2010, 05:24:15 PM »
3. You don't stop being an assassin and having that set of skills just because you find a moral center, or because your combat stats are slightly different. And you don't become an angel or demon just because you're a good or bad person
Exactly.

The fact is we use traits in a number of different ways. Some of them are just markers for fetishes; They get you more trade from a certain sort of customer; Some of them give bonuses to stats; many of them have a number of bonuses to various probability checks behind the scenes; some are purely descriptive and/or for roleplay purposes, and most are some combination of the above.

Consequently, I'm somewhat loathe make them all consistent. I think we'd end up having to re-invent traits under a new name to take the place of the missing functionality.

That said, a trait reworking has been on the cards for a while now. I have plans for an XML trait definition file where you can create your own traits or rework existing ones. When that happens, I'm going to need to review a lot of existing traits with a view to simplifying and consolidating the trait code. So one way or another, most of the concerns raised in this thread should be addressed (at least addressable) at that time.

[edit]

About mana: yes, it has an effect on combat, and a few other things as well. There are a lot of interesting mechanics behind the scenes which I'd like to make a little bit more visible. Although I must admit, I am slightly worried that if we expose too much of the hidden workings of the game, it'll stop being lifelike and become purely mechanical. Still, I think we have a ways to go before we have to worry about that.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:27:39 PM by DocClox »

Offline LordShame

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2010, 06:24:22 PM »
About mana: yes, it has an effect on combat, and a few other things as well.

Holy crap it does? The relaxers in my item pack restore a small amount of mana as a side effect, but now that I know there's an actual point to it I just might put in some dedicated items. Neat!

Offline sgb

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 12:40:21 AM »
Traits are important for fluff and balancing at the moment, so I'm not sure the OP's suggestion would work out very well.  While I can understand the appeal of random girls gaining new traits as they progress, unique girls are generally meant to be fixed.

Leaving items as a way for players to add and remove traits mid-game works just fine IMO.  Customizable traits would be awesome though.

Offline Graen

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 12:57:54 AM »
Traits are important for fluff and balancing at the moment, so I'm not sure the OP's suggestion would work out very well.  While I can understand the appeal of random girls gaining new traits as they progress, unique girls are generally meant to be fixed.

Truth be told, I'd rather see all the random girls removed from the game.  ???

Offline Mehzerz

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 01:22:57 AM »
Truth be told, I'd rather see all the random girls removed from the game.  ???


I recall someone else wanting all the uniques removed lol. I'm sure the game could be played without the uniques, but i'm not so sure about the random girls.
Starter girls image additions progress:
26 girls, 18 to go

Offline zodiac44

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 02:45:02 AM »
The game would crash at certain points if you removed all the random girls, but if you were somehow lucky enough to not run into any of those situations (highly unlikely), you could play without them.  I don't like them either, but I find it's much easier to ignore them completely than to try to remove them.
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Offline DocClox

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 06:03:39 AM »
Maybe the thing to do would be to separate out distribution of the game and content. That way we could have variations on the standard girls. In fact the notion of standard girls would largely cease to exists.

I would make debugging some problems that much harder, though.

Offline zodiac44

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 02:02:37 PM »
That would help with players who don't want unique girls, but I don't really see much value beyond that.  It's easy enough to customize both which girls you have and what their stats are as is, and add-on content vastly outweighs the girls that come with the game anyway, so there isn't much in the way of "standard girls" in the current system.
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline sgb

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2010, 03:16:30 PM »
Truth be told, I'd rather see all the random girls removed from the game.  ???
Eh, why?  They're the most sensible solution for people's daughters, and they're an option to play the game for those who find constantly having to use Take a Walk annoying.  If you find the default random girl selection lacking (it is, but it wasn't meant to be more something to get things started), there are numerous random girl add-ons at this point.  I also like turning well made packs of unique characters I don't care for into randoms.  At this point I have ~20 different random templates, so it's actually rather interesting to see what I'm going to get.

Offline Graen

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Re: Stat based Traits
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2010, 03:39:22 PM »
Eh, why?  They're the most sensible solution for people's daughters, and they're an option to play the game for those who find constantly having to use Take a Walk annoying.  If you find the default random girl selection lacking (it is, but it wasn't meant to be more something to get things started), there are numerous random girl add-ons at this point.  I also like turning well made packs of unique characters I don't care for into randoms.  At this point I have ~20 different random templates, so it's actually rather interesting to see what I'm going to get.

I suppose it is each person's personal preference.  I only play with the girls that come with the game, I'm well aware that there are many expansion packs out there for more girls or items, but I try to play the game as it is initially presented to everyone.

To me, the random girls always seemed as an after-thought to get more content into the game, even if that may not be the case.  I realize that without the random girls, children may not be as feasible in the game but the way it is now, with time having no relevance, children seem more acceptable.