General Discussion

[Xela]

Sf Updated:
- Fixed some bugs that appeared because we're switching to skills system
- Some decent updates to Arena Screens (unified 9 screens into 3)

I've used some of Gismo's frames to update some of the graphics in the arena as well.

[Xela]

I don't think we require a separate thread for this:

How do we want to handle ranks and occupations? I want to move the whole thing to a new class next week but if someone has some ideas/request, let me know.

It's hard to proceed without this, I can't even write a PM to Thewlis asking to move ST to the final stage before this is done...

So far:

We have finalized skills, stats and (at least for now) traits. Items and Traits files are still not adapted to new skills system (which should work). Items auto-equip and auto-buy are also not adapted to new systems.

We decided to create ranks for all classes, same as for whores but what should that look like. I've explained how I see it in general a couple of times but if anyone has any ideas/requests, lets hear them!

Note: The main point in this is to specify training levels (goals) for Slave Training and related quests/events! While it would be nice to have in general, we do not really require it for anything else...

[livingforever]

Hi!

We decided to create ranks for all classes, same as for whores but what should that look like. I've explained how I see it in general a couple of times but if anyone has any ideas/requests, lets hear them!

I have three questions - depending on the answer you can skip the remaining ones:

• Do you want to change the system or do you just want to make some minor tweaks?
• If the first: Do you want a linear system (see the money & auto-equip discussion for potential problems) or something more complex (e.g. only X% of characters can achieve the highest rank)?
• If the first: That's basically just the same experience system for all jobs, maybe with different rank names, isn't it?

What it comes down to: Do you want suggestions on rank names or do you want design ideas for the system?
Have fun!

[Xela]

Hi!I have three questions - depending on the answer you can skip the remaining ones:

• Do you want to change the system or do you just want to make some minor tweaks?
• If the first: Do you want a linear system (see the money & auto-equip discussion for potential problems) or something more complex (e.g. only X% of characters can achieve the highest rank)?
• If the first: That's basically just the same experience system for all jobs, maybe with different rank names, isn't it?

What it comes down to: Do you want suggestions on rank names or do you want design ideas for the system?
Have fun!

What we have now:

- Generalized Occupations: (Prostitute, Warrior, ServiceGirl, Stripper). It's a simple string.
- Ranks for Prostitutes (which is a very simple dict borrowed from the original SimBrothel).

And that's it...

I think that it needs to be redesigned... it's not enough to support the required logic for all of the skills and stats we're going to have anyway. I don't mind complexity, prolly would prefer an interesting system to a linear one. Ranks names we need to come up with as well.

[livingforever]

I don't mind complexity, prolly would prefer an interesting system to a linear one. Ranks names we need to come up with as well.

Alright, cool.


Well, let's start throwing ideas around then.
Things we want to achieve

• A dynamic system that incentivizes changes without forcing them
• Rank-up rewards that feel rewarding
• Limits that make sense both early and late in the game
• Mechanics that don't snowball without breaking the rewards

The first point suggests a non-linear system simply because waiting for a condition then pressing the rank-up button (as it is now) isn't dynamic, it's boring after the 3rd time. Essentially, rank changes need to work and make sense both ways (up and down) - which will also help the 3rd point a lot.
In order for the last point to work with that, a fixed amount of "openings" for every rank is the most obvious approach, but it also needs to scale with the overall amount of girls employed by the player.
And the rewards? Mostly a balance issue I'd say, but the first step to make it feel more rewarding (without messing with the balance) would be to only allow a promotion if there are enough girls in the tier that the girl should be promoted from. That also makes sense because you never have more superiors than workers, whatever job it is. However, that amount may not be too high (otherwise high tiers would require insane amounts of employees).
As a side effect this would require to find new employees near constantly, therefore providing motivation no matter how long you keep playing.


So how could that work
Let's see.

• For every rank, there is a minimum amount of characters required in order to unlock one position of the next rank. Similarly, there also is a maximum so the current tier can never exceed the previous one. A character can only be promoted if there is a free spot in the next tier.
• Demotions are always allowed. This helps to ensure that position changes are easy to accomplish. If the maximum of the new tier is exceeded by a demotion, the system will deal with that itself by not allowing the player to promote further characters into that tier.
• Promotions have a cost. If a character payed the cost once for the current tier, (s)he can be freely promoted and demoted up to that tier. This will ensure that demotions actually make sense if there is a better character available for the position.
• There is a highest tier (that should be somewhat difficult to reach).
• There is no absolute maximum of employees in a tier. The only limitation is the amount of characters in the previous tier.

Example Tiers (with scaling): Minimum :: Maximum

• A :: Unlimited
• B = A * 2/3 :: 2 * C * 3/2
• C = B * 1/2 :: 3* D * 3/2
• D = C * 1/3 :: 3 * E * 3/2
• E = D * 1/3 :: E (no maximum required, it's the highest rank anyway)

Example for scale 1 (values rounded up):

• 27 :: Unlimited
• 18 :: 27
• 9 :: 14
• 3 :: 5
• 1 :: 1

That would mean that it requires 58 (1 + 3 + 9 + 18 + 27) characters in a job to be able to promote one of them to the highest tier. I personally think that is a reasonable amount (the highest tier should be hard to reach).


Things that I didn't consider yet:
What is the effect of a higher rank?
Honestly, I don't really know. You are the game's gurus, I'm certain you have better ideas on that point. I just want to note that a rank-up is an achievement that should be rewarded properly and increasingly (meaning that the reward from 4 to 5 should be much higher than the improvement from 1 to 2).


Five tiers for every job. I'll edit this part of the post as suggestions come up.

Names, anyone?

I think we can safely ignore the different jobs and stick with the general occupations for the rank names.

Prostitute

• Bimbo
• Whore
• Courtesan
• Escort
• Madam

Warrior

• Thug
• Mercenary
• Warrior
• Veteran
• Legend

Stripper

• Stripper
• Lap dancer
• Ecdysiast
• Temptress
• Burlesque queen

Service Girl

• Wench
• Servant
• Maid
• Chambermaid
• Housekeeper

Discuss!
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

^Very interesting idea.

Iirc so far we have 10 ranks for whores though. I think this is too much for such system. Better to have few ranks with more differences.

[Xela]

^Very interesting idea.

Iirc so far we have 10 ranks for whores though. I think this is too much for such system. Better to have few ranks with more differences.

We have 8 so 5 + 1 (baserank 0) makes it 6. We can simply get rid of two ranks.

Otherwise:

...

It's a very good concept. It will have to be adjusted because your numbers are ok for prostitutes but warriors need that to be halved and service girls and strippers will only work with a third of the minimums...

Things that I didn't consider yet:
What is the effect of a higher rank?
Honestly, I don't really know. You are the game's gurus, I'm certain you have better ideas on that point. I just want to note that a rank-up is an achievement that should be rewarded properly and increasingly (meaning that the reward from 4 to 5 should be much higher than the improvement from 1 to 2).

My proposals:

For all:
- Small modifiers to skills
- Access to better buildings/businesses
- Abilities to complete quests
- Better wages (to be paid to characters) or higher tax for slaves
- Not all ranks are available to slaves (living suggested that already)
- Better payouts (when available)

Prostitutes:
- Unlock better buildings, some brothels are not available until player has a least one prostitute of rank x.
- Just as before, girl can only be ranked to maxrank that building allows.

Warriors:
- Allows party to travel to new locations (dangerous locations are locked for low ranked characters) (in guild).
*The above will require team captain of rank x and members (if any) of one rank below (at least).
- Better security rating for buildings.

*As we'll add more and more modules to the game, things will improve for strippers and service girls, for now, their advantages will be very limited.

How about slaves?
I think the system can be applied to slaves as well. However, 58 is quite a lot to set one free, so I guess the last tier should be cut (so freedom as acquired at rank 4). A rank 4 slave would then be changed to a rank 1 prostitute/whatever.

Slaves should not have ranks of their own but be a part of ranking system for occupations.

[DarkTl]

We also can add rank requirements to items, if you willing to code it.

[Xela]

We also can add rank requirements to items, if you willing to code it.

I want to use unmodified skills requirements for ranks so items cannot be used to cheat ranks just by putting them on.

I can code it but we already have a system of maxes that make sure that powerful items will not overpower stats of weak characters. You proposal feels like a version of that system. Game is already very complex as it is.

[livingforever]

Hi!

It will have to be adjusted because your numbers are ok for prostitutes but warriors need that to be halved and service girls and strippers will only work with a third of the minimums...

Yeah, I guess.

My proposals:

Maybe a small efficiency increase for all lower tiers (similar to how strippers increase prostitute efficiency, but not as much)?

Slaves should not have ranks of their own but be a part of ranking system for occupations.

Makes sense.
Have fun!

[Xela]

• For every rank, there is a minimum amount of characters required in order to unlock one position of the next rank. Similarly, there also is a maximum so the current tier can never exceed the previous one. A character can only be promoted if there is a free spot in the next tier.
• Demotions are always allowed. This helps to ensure that position changes are easy to accomplish. If the maximum of the new tier is exceeded by a demotion, the system will deal with that itself by not allowing the player to promote further characters into that tier.
• Promotions have a cost. If a character payed the cost once for the current tier, (s)he can be freely promoted and demoted up to that tier. This will ensure that demotions actually make sense if there is a better character available for the position.
• There is a highest tier (that should be somewhat difficult to reach).
• There is no absolute maximum of employees in a tier. The only limitation is the amount of characters in the previous tier.

Example Tiers (with scaling): Minimum :: Maximum

• A :: Unlimited
• B = A * 2/3 :: A (same as B * 3/2)
• C = B * 1/2 :: C * 3/2
• D = C * 1/3 :: D * 3/2
• E = D * 1/3 :: E (no maximum required, it's the highest rank anyway)

Example for scale 1 (values rounded down):

• 27 :: Unlimited
• 18 :: 27
• 9 :: 13
• 3 :: 4
• 1 :: 1

That would mean that it requires 58 (1 + 3 + 9 + 18 + 27) characters in a job to be able to promote one of them to the highest tier. I personally think that is a reasonable amount (the highest tier should be hard to reach).

This is not going to work. This means that a player cannot advance a very capable girl to higher rank unless there are 27 nubs in employment as well. I don't think this is acceptable from gameplay perspective. It is not logical either...

I also don't like ideas of demotions. We need a system that doesn't limit gameplay options. Like if a player wants and has funds/reputation to run a high class brothel, there should be nothing enforcing managing 10 sh!tty brothels on the side just to allow having high ranked girls.

Basically we can just go with the stats/skills/money/level requirements and make sure that those are very, very high for top ranks... I don't have a good (different) solution to limit ranks at the moment but this is too restrictive and forces a very specific gameplay completely removing an option to play a nice game just with 10 of your favorite characters for example...

[livingforever]

Hi!
What the hell dude.
First you comment that the system is a good idea, then you back off with problems that don't even exist.

This is not going to work. This means that a player cannot advance a very capable girl to higher rank unless there are 27 nubs in employment as well. I don't think this is acceptable from gameplay perspective. It is not logical either...

Wrong. In order to advance one prostitute to tier two, you need two in tier one. In order to advance one to tier three, you need two in tier two. In order to advance one to tier four, you need three in tier three.
I mean come on, it's really not that hard to understand.

I also don't like ideas of demotions. We need a system that doesn't limit gameplay options. Like if a player wants and has funds/reputation to run a high class brothel, there should be nothing enforcing managing 10 sh!tty brothels on the side just to allow having high ranked girls.

You not liking demotions is your thing, but they don't limit gameplay options in any way. It's not about the "class" of the brothel, it's about the experience of the employees. A high class brothel doesn't make your girls more skilled. Nothing is forcing the player to do what you describe.

Basically we can just go with the stats/skills/money/level requirements and make sure that those are very, very high for top ranks... I don't have a good (different) solution to limit ranks at the moment but this is too restrictive and forces a very specific gameplay completely removing an option to play a nice game just with 10 of your favorite characters for example...

Linear, boring, snowballing system. Not good.
The new system is restricting the amount of high ranked characters to avoid exactely that and it doesn't force a specific gameplay at all, it also adds options instead of removing anything.
Have fun!

[livingforever]

And by the way...

I want to use unmodified skills requirements for ranks so items cannot be used to cheat ranks just by putting them on.

I can code it but we already have a system of maxes that make sure that powerful items will not overpower stats of weak characters. You proposal feels like a version of that system. Game is already very complex as it is.

I think he meant it the other way around (that you need rank X to wear item Y), which does make sense (because if - as you say - higher ranks have a skill and stat requirement, then using that rank as a requirement for an item that would otherwise require those skills anyway is just a shortcut that simplifies the user interface and code).
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

What the hell dude.
First you comment that the system is a good idea, then you back off with problems that don't even exist.

Lol, that's Xela for you 
I wonder if there are two or more people using his account.

And by the way...I think he meant it the other way around (that you need rank X to wear item Y)

Yup.

[Dusk]

As the newcomer to the sea of forum posts, I figured I'd drop in to say hello!

Truth be told, I'm a tad curious about this game being developed.  I saw it over on the Hongfire forum (Well actually I saw Whoremaker not PyTFall) thread and thought I'd try it out.

If you'd spare me a few moments of your time, I have a couple questions I'd like to ask:
1) Approximately how large is this game exactly?  I was skimming this General Thread for an answer but, it's rather inflated and full of what appears to be a mix of brainstorming and updates (275 is far too much to read through with my time constraints).
2) What are the general recommended/minimum system requirements? I'm not exactly running an optimal high-end system so, it'd be nice to know.

On a side-note, I'd like to commend you all for in your consistent dedication towards this project of you've all put together!

To be perfectly honest, from what I've skimmed through, you've all managed to get me rather motivated to help despite me never having played the game yet!  If it turns out that my toaster can't run the game I'll be slightly disappointed...
Also, if you're still on the lookout for a writer, I'll happily contribute my modest English literary capabilities to the cause.  That is, unless the actual 'playing' of the game is required (in which case the toaster will have the final say).