General Discussion

[DarkTl]

Skyrim is a really bad example for massive spells though, they look and damage poorly without mods. If we take Dragon Dogma, it will be a different story. Imagine what it can do with paving stone
If we forbid spells in brawls because it's not wise to summon meteors in your own building, then meteors damaging city property are a thing too.
 

I think it's too easy to find characters atm. 3 per location, guaranteed. And unique ones probably should be more rare than random ones.

[Xela]

Skyrim is a really bad example for massive spells though, they look and damage poorly without mods. If we take Dragon Dogma, it will be a different story. Imagine what it can do with paving stone
If we forbid spells in brawls because it's not wise to summon meteors in your own building, then meteors damaging city property are a thing too.

I haven't really played anything major since skyrim...

I think it's too easy to find characters atm. 3 per location, guaranteed. And unique ones probably should be more rare than random ones.

As I've explained multiple times, one of the chars is always the one you know best or that is otherwise predisposed to you. The other is any random unique character. And finally, if I recall correctly, we get one at random...

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I switched from wine to Bulgarian pliska so don't expect anything decent today On the other hand I know exactly when and where to stop so I got a decent bit of coding planned out for to tomorrow, so it'll be new code for PyTFall and the shooting range! Just the smirky comments for now thought

[DarkTl]

Too bad I cannot drink alcohol anymore due to lack of gallbladder 

As I've explained multiple times, one of the chars is always the one you know best or that is otherwise predisposed to you. The other is any random unique character. And finally, if I recall correctly, we get one at random...

Meanwhile in classic wm you can have to pass a check to meet one single character.

Also, sometimes in location there are two copies of the same random character. It's not an issue by itself, but very often they use exactly the same picture, and that looks meh.

[Xela]

Also, sometimes in location there are two copies of the same random character. It's not an issue by itself, but very often they use exactly the same picture, and that looks meh.

Stuff like this we can adjust without any fuss. One of the easiest thing to improve in the game.

Too bad I cannot drink alcohol anymore due to lack of gallbladder 

Sux I've never been heavy drinker or smoker or anything of a sort... but it does take the edge off as long as you can manage to stop the next day after you started

[DarkTl]

So, what's up with slaves rights?

Can master freely hit, rape, kill one? Where is the line between free ones and slaves in Pytfall, other than free labor? I dunno if slaves had any rights in ancient Rome you often used as example, but if they are 100% property, pretty much like a table, then anything is allowed, no?

I mean, so far it was just a theory. But I need a real concept for evil interactions.

[Xela]

So, what's up with slaves rights?

Can master freely hit, rape, kill one? Where is the line between free ones and slaves in Pytfall, other than free labor? I dunno if slaves had any rights in ancient Rome you often used as example, but if they are 100% property, pretty much like a table, then anything is allowed, no?

Yeap, it is... everything goes...

Problem is that it's a fail at the end. It's proven that slavery is inferior to motivation through personal profit. There is little point in debating that. Translating matter this complex into game play/code is something devs of awesome titles like Jont and SlaveMaker didn't even try to mimic.

I've wrote about how I see ST module many times. It may not be the best options gameplay wise but it's all I got. I'd support any other decent ideas, it's not like I haven't done that before.

I mean, so far it was just a theory. But I need a real concept for evil interactions.

I've wrote about a political policy module where stuff like this can be influenced. I actually have code setups in local projects that are capable of handling stuff like that modeled of (ideas form) Poolka's last releases.

Ideally it would be about current laws, crime and how far player is willing to push that but I am not deluded enough to expect that we can do all of that within an year from today. What we can do is to work all angles that we consider worthwhile and keep them "in play" under specific conditions.

I cannot really imagine us throwing away decent content at any stage of development. It's way easier to implement conditions to make the content appropriate than to to destroy work that's been done. And I am not opposed to anything save the sh!t where actual people get really hurt in rl. Something noone in their right mind would put up for a discussion (or I'd ban them)

[DarkTl]

Nah, evil interactions are not supposed to stimulate better work. Because we assume that slaves outside training are trained, and follow orders anyway without additional checks. And bdsm stuff is for dungeon anyway.
But if you can insult a free character, you can also insult a slave. And they should react a bit differently.

Btw I believe in ancient Rome slaves were not locked up somewhere, but could move around the city if needed. Shouldn't we add slaves to GMs too sometimes, with option in interactions to propose their masters to buy them?

[Xela]

Maybe, but it might not be a good idea from gameplay perspective.

[DarkTl]

Problem is that it's a fail at the end. It's proven that slavery is inferior to motivation through personal profit. There is little point in debating that.

**I am thinking we should try to give the whole slave training and maybe the gameplay itself different approach. In ancient times, values of skilled slaves was insane (skilled medical practitioner 50 - 70 times unskilled slaves, skilled artists/musicians x25 value the unskilled slaves, scribes x10 value of the unskilled slaves and etc.)

It might not be a bad idea to build the whole game around something like that (full training could take up to 1000 days and require a professional trainer (who can in turn train several slaves at the same time)).

So, slaves don't work properly due to lack of motivation, but also cost a lot. What's the point of having one, other than having a sex slave? 

Yeap, it is... everything goes...

Btw we discussed it once, when I asked how far goes slaves obedience. You said something along the lines that even a trained slave is not going to follow any order, and will refuse for example to have sex with MC if disposition is low.

[Xela]

So, slaves don't work properly due to lack of motivation, but also cost a lot. What's the point of having one, other than having a sex slave? 

"don't work properly" is a bit of a stretch, I've also wrote a number of times that there should be options like a promise of release after 10 - 15 years of service or threats of selling them off to some rural areas where they are using treated much worse than in cities or sell off to work in mines till they drop (kinda of a slow death sentence). "cost a lot" depends on skills more than on anything else.

Btw we discussed it once, when I asked how far goes slaves obedience. You said something along the lines that even a trained slave is not going to follow any order, and will refuse for example to have sex with MC if disposition is low.

"trained"... I think that's a BS concept. Trained to do what? Nobody in their right mind would spend f*cking month and a half training one slave in basic skills and obedience like done in SM and JoNT. Sure... a duo of a "trainer" and an assistant too boot are working their ass off (for two or three days?) to get some girl to willingly kiss them... that both makes sense and it's very practical as well! Right 

So it'll depend on traits, basetraits, flags and stuff like that. We can add cool stuff like mind control at some point too (through an item for example), just another if fork during interactions.

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If you're writing interactions for slaves, just use your best judgement. Content is always useful, conditioning we can adjust later on if they won't be a fit anymore somehow.

[DarkTl]

I've also wrote a number of times that there should be options like a promise of release after 10 - 15 years of service

Why bother with buying and training slaves, giving them valuable skills, if they will leave eventually, or at best will become free and continue to work for you?

Especially, why would anybody buy skilled ones for huge amounts of money, if they will have to be released soon enough since training itself should take many years from those 10-15.

You might as well hire and teach free ones, since they will be more motivated and will put those skills to better use, and also don't have any slaves restrictions.

or threats of selling them off to some rural areas where they are using treated much worse than in cities or sell off to work in mines till they drop (kinda of a slow death sentence).

It only forces them to follow orders. They are still not motivated like free ones.

"trained"... I think that's a BS concept. Trained to do what?

Trained to follow orders. Speaking of training, why Blue does what she does when you arrive to the slavemarket if there is no training, only promises and threats?

If there is no training involved, then ST module can be added here and now, after deleting Blue event of course. It will include two buttons, one is to promise freedom after randint(10,15) years, another one is threatening to sell them to the Eternal Rome from JoNT, where they will be fkn eaten alive 

I got an impression from your explanations back then that slaves in Pytfall are like slaves in the game from this thread. Yes, they follow any personal orders, but they still have rights and cannot be just killed on spot or raped by anyone.
 

[Xela]

Why bother with buying and training slaves, giving them valuable skills, if they will leave eventually, or at best will become free and continue to work for you?

I am not saying that should be mandatory, it's an option. A good one to inspire loyalty and motivation. From wiki:

Roman slaves could hold property which, despite the fact that it belonged to their masters, they were allowed to use as if it were their own.[2] Skilled or educated slaves were allowed to earn their own money, and might hope to save enough to buy their freedom.[3][4] Such slaves were often freed by the terms of their master's will, or for services rendered. A notable example of a high-status slave was Tiro, the secretary of Cicero. Tiro was freed before his master's death, and was successful enough to retire on his own country estate, where he died at the age of 99.[5][6][7]

Especially, why would anybody buy skilled ones for huge amounts of money, if they will have to be released soon enough since training itself should take many years from those 10-15.

Well.. if you bought a skilled slave for a hefty sum that need to be trained... you should ask for your money back.

You might as well hire and teach free ones, since they will be more motivated and will put those skills to better use, and also don't have any slaves restrictions.
It only forces them to follow orders. They are still not motivated like free ones.
Trained to follow orders. That's what Blue does in your own event when player comes to slave market.

You could but free chars can leave if someone offers them a better deal. One could also say that a slave who has a chance of getting their freedom back will work harder. If you're asking for "absolutes", I don't have any for you. If you have suggestions or ideas, lets hear them. (imo) Best way to approach this issue is to create content, look at what we can do with traits, stats, skills that we have. What kind of flags might be useful and once something decent takes shape, we may even stuff all of that into some personality module one day.

If there is no training involved, then ST module can be added here and now, after deleting Blue event of course. It will include two buttons, one is to promise freedom after randint(10,15) years, another one is threatening to sell them to the Eternal Rome from JoNT, where they will be fkn eaten alive 

We could do something like an obedience course... teach them Bible or something:

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

preferably in groups. Some brain washing wouldn't hurt. We can also have something like torture dungeon at some point. I don't see why we gotta delete the event either. What is it with you? We don't need these extremes/absolutes, we also don't need linear training progression.

I got an impression from your explanations back then that slaves in Pytfall are like slaves in the game from this thread. Yes, they follow any personal orders, but they still have rights and cannot be just killed on spot or raped by anyone.

Rights/Policies will be decided by "Politics" module at some point. For now we should decide what rights they have until that module kicks in. Like they are not allowed to fight/use weapons/cast magic and etc.

[Xela]

It will include two buttons, one is to promise freedom after randint(10,15) years, another one is threatening to sell them to the Eternal Rome from JoNT, where they will be fkn eaten alive 

I mean this...

This is personal and would depend on traits, stats and maybe flags. Some slave with high disposition might respond with: "There is no need, I will gladly serve you till the say I die.". Other char may respond with: "Go fuck yourself, I will rather die that serve anyone.". The trouble is that assuming that the second char can be trained is BS.

If you buy a slave who accepts that reality, you shouldn't get those issues. If you caught one, it should start with a conversation like that. What happens then? Dungeon/Prison/Torture? We'll see.

[DarkTl]

Right. So why Blue does what she does if training cannot be forceful?

[Xela]

Right. So why Blue does what she does if training cannot be forceful?

Why can't it be forceful?