General Discussion

[DarkTl]

Because it's useless. Either they agree, with some conditions or not, or disagree. You said it yourself.

Other char may respond with: "Go fuck yourself, I will rather die that serve anyone.". The trouble is that assuming that the second char can be trained is BS.

So when you whip them, it's just a waste of time. I suppose completely destroying personality might help, but it requires JoNT stuff, not some light whipping.

[Xela]

We're not going to mess with that for the next release. What's the problem right now? Are you having trouble conditioning for interactions with slaves?

We can discuss those on case per case basis if you like but I can't understand why it matters. All slaves for now should just do their jobs, we are not going to deal with refusals until ST. You mistreat them, disposition/joy drops, they try to commit suicide/run away. I think something along those lines is already coded in.

Responses to interaction you condition like you do for free chars, based off traits, stats and etc. Your questions about "what is expected of a slave" is not the right question. Why do you need those "absolutes" for slaves but not for free chars? For slaves disposition limits prolly got to be lower and you can abuse them without consequences but at high cost of disposition/joy.

[Xela]

Because it's useless. Either they agree, with some conditions or not, or disagree. You said it yourself.

It is, I am not saying we should add that right now. But in general that would be a part of ST once we have it.

So when you whip them, it's just a waste of time. I suppose completely destroying personality might help, but it requires JoNT stuff, not some light whipping.

We are not going to do ST atm.

[DarkTl]

I cannot understand slaves worldview due to contradictions in concept. Depending on worldview they should react differently in different cases.

Misbehaving slaves go to Eternal Rome immediately as a common practice? Then there are two types of slaves, dead ones and [completely obedient because not stupid] ones. There is even no need in any ST or checks or promises.

All slaves will be free after a few years and even will become respectable citizens, while costing too much to be killed without a second thought? Then they can say "GFY [hero.name], I'm not going to have sex with you just because you are happened to be my Master."

[Xela]

I cannot understand slaves worldview due to contradictions in concept. Depending on worldview they should react differently in different cases.

Which contradictions?

Misbehaving slaves go to Eternal Rome immediately as a common practice? Then there are two types of slaves, dead ones and [completely obedient because not stupid] ones. There is even no need in any ST or checks or promises.

You love those words that came out of nowhere... "immediately"... "completely"... There are no absolutes like that for this concept from my end...

All slaves will be free after a few years and even will become respectable citizens, while costing too much to be killed without a second thought?

"All"... again... "ALL". When did we ever say that? It is an option... I can't write the same damn thing over and over again.

Then they can say "GFY [hero.name], I'm not going to have sex with you just because you are happened to be my Master."

Exactly. What you do with that depends on your preferences and responses. Do you want to kill/rape a salve you invested in? Or not?

See... no need for "all", "immediately", "completely" and etc. Just simple checks as you would with the free chars.

[DarkTl]

Btw I have to say, I'm skeptical about making slaves free after 10 years = 3650 turns. It's like borrowing 10 000 000 gold from a bank to return 50 000 000 after 5000 turns. It might be a problem after all those turns will pass, but does the game last that long? If not, then such mechanics are empty and unbalanced.

Which contradictions?

You just told me ST, like in SM and JoNT, is BS. Then you told me there will be ST with whipping as a part of it. Why? It's a BS, you said it yourself. Are we adding BS to the game now? 

Exactly. What you do with that depends on your preferences and responses. Do you want to kill/rape a salve you invested in? Or not?

I understand that. I'm not wondering how MC should react to such lines. I'm wondering if slaves should even speak such lines or not.

[DarkTl]

As a more topical example, insults. Free chars with high disposition think it's a joke, with a small disp drop, then kicks in flag which forbids you to use the same option over and over. Chars with low disposition either stop talking with you, or attack you.

Now, how slaves are supposed to react? Can they even attack MC? Should they even use the blowoff flag? That depends. In JoNT they can attack you all right. In SM it never happens.

[DarkTl]

I mean, sure, they cannot wear armor and weapon and fight at arena. But they still can fight physically if they want to.

[Xela]

Btw I have to say, I'm skeptical about making slaves free after 10 years = 3650 turns. It's like borrowing 10 000 000 gold from a bank to return 50 000 000 after 5000 turns. It might be a problem after all those turns will pass, but does the game last that long? If not, then such mechanics are empty and unbalanced.

Maybe, it's not empty if we flag it and someone actually plays for that long It's meaningless before ST, as I've said.

You just told me ST, like in SM and JoNT, is BS. Then you told me there will be ST with whipping as a part of it. Why? It's a BS, you said it yourself. Are we adding BS to the game now? 

You misunderstood. Whipping (pain/fear) can be great motivator, but in most cases it shouldn't be required. I am opposed to the linear system where you: Ask for a kiss ==>> No ==>> Torture/No food ==>> As for a kiss ==>> Yes ==>> Ask to touch cock ==>> No ==>> No food again. ==>> Ask again ==>> BS...

I thought I wrote this damn thing like two or three times by now:

1) If char is local, they'd know their circumstances.
2) If pulled from elsewhere, you explain it to them.
3) They got to choose, work as [job] (they should be suited for or why the fuck would you want them to work that job) in your employment or you keep them as personal servants or as personal sex slaves and etc.

===>>
First thing to decide in 3) is what you require of them and they can make a decision if they go along with it or not. Problem with JoNT/SM is that "slave" is a "unit" that is pretty much mind fucked and what they'll do basically depends on how long you've been training them and if you gave them "whip"/"candy" at just the right times during those training. That is bullshit. I mean in a dedicated game where that is the whole world setting, yeah. Ok, it's passable. In a broader sense it's absolute idiocy to have 2 people training one defiant slave to do shit.

Why do I have to explain this 2+2=4? We discussed this already and it's not even important right now. Should there be whipping options? Yeah, why not. But it should start with a simple talk and more often than not, if you're asking a person who doesn't have rights but may have skills to work for free and apply those skills, possibly with a chance to gain rights and freedom in distant future (even if that may be outside of game plays range), with an alternative being sent to milk cows and get raped/beaten in rural areas or certain death by forced labor under the harshest conditions elsewhere...

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU NEED SLAVE TRAINING??? Most would say: Yes! Ok... It's a fucked world we live in but I am taking that deal. In JoNT/ST they cannot afford that because it's pretty much: Game Over after that. Well done, obedience training complete, don't forget to teach them how to cook... If you get a slave that resists, why would you spend all those days "training" them in obedience? It's fucking stupid. Make an example out of them for the others or sell them for min price. And find someone who's not an idiot.

We can afford that. Should there be options to beat a slave? Or a free char? Yeah, why not. Both with consequences. We could also have an obedience course where teachers explain to slaves their place and how gods themselves want them to obey their masters, might be useful... but we're not going to do the ==>> kiss ==>> candy thing.

Can there be a dungeon? Yes. Can you throw a slave in there (defiant or not) or a free char? Yes... all with their own consequences. How much can you trust someone who you randomly tortured or raped?

It's not all that complicated...

I understand that. I'm not wondering how MC should react to such lines. I'm wondering if slaves should even speak such lines or not.

Well... lets say that you have a slave girl who agreed to work as a cook. You suddenly approach her and tell her to fuck a pig. Than byte of that pigs cock, cook it and eat it... Should that be an automatic: Yes, My Master! or should she... I don't know, maybe say something? Or try to run away screaming for help...

[Xela]

As a more topical example, insults. Free chars with high disposition think it's a joke, with a small disp drop, then kicks in flag which forbids you to use the same option over and over. Chars with low disposition either stop talking with you, or attack you.

Now, how slaves are supposed to react? Can they even attack MC? Should they even use the blowoff flag? That depends. In JoNT they can attack you all right. In SM it never happens.

For an insult? Attacking a master is pretty much death sentence... are their joy/disposition low enough (aka have you fucked them up so much that they would risk death)?

Ofcource they CAN attack you. As long as there is no restraint or some magical item preventing that. They are skill people, why wouldn't they be able to? I guess after that attack, if you win, there should be an option to send them to authorities for a public execution or maybe to finish them off after the fight.

Otherwise those are just checks and you work with the same traits and stats and circumstances and use your best judgement.

No rule is set to stone. I supposed it may be ok for a slave to fight but only if that is to save masters life (not in the arena or SE). I would definitely find that reasonable exception to our general law in the city.

[DarkTl]

Well... lets say that you have a slave girl who agreed to work as a cook. You suddenly approach her and tell her to fuck a pig. Than byte of that pigs cock, cook it and eat it... Should that be an automatic: Yes, My Master! or should she... I don't know, maybe say something? Or try to run away screaming for help...

You should help sometimes Old Huntsman with ideas for slave training options in his games 

Since you used an extreme example, disposition doesn't mean much here. Thus, in my opinion, if the said slave was trained in a hard way, she might consider silently doing the said stuff, because it's still better than another few months in a dungeon where she will be forced to do similar stuff anyway. And a "voluntary" slave might doubt her decision about obeying MC's commands and run away screaming for help.

[Xela]

You should help sometimes Old Huntsman with ideas for slave training options in his games 

LoL

Since you used an extreme example, disposition doesn't mean much here. Thus, in my opinion, if the said slave was trained in a hard way, she might consider silently doing the said stuff, because it's still better than another few months in a dungeon where she will be forced to do similar stuff anyway. And a "voluntary" slave might doubt her decision about obeying MC's commands and run away screaming for help.

Yeah, so it's all relative, just like with free chars you've put so much time into. I guess fear does in this case and we don't have a stat for that.

Training the hard way... I am not sure what that means in a broader sense, you've spent 100 days personally training that char? Or they're driven mad? Those are the actual extreme cases we may not even want to deal with. It's not how any society functions. Some fucked up people may roll that way but we can add those options/flags as an expansion in some distant future.

I am trying to explain that slaves are just people and you can treat them as such in interactions. I mean your "extreme" training, if done on a "free" person and you managed to hide that from the authorities for the duration of it, it wouldn't matter if a char was labeled "free" or "slave" as their status, effect would have been pretty much the same. That's why I try to get you out of frame of thinking about free vs slaves as of a completely different units, it seems like that in SM/JoNT but it's not, not in a broader sense anyway. You can use your best judgement when writing interactions for them without assuming that they are in some special "frame of mind" or "rules" or "brainwashed". Like they simply cannot attack the player or cannot fight or cannot refuse to do something or always agree to anything, no matter what. Such fucked up extremes are not reasonable and might apply to any character, slave or free.

[Xela]

We need to discuss this stuff in the chat... would be less time demanding (I think)

[DarkTl]

Ohhkey then, slaves will react similar to free chars, except you have to try really hard and long to provoke them 

And since slaves cannot be encountered during GMs, we came to the issue 175.

Caught a cold yesterday, gonna go to bed early today...

[Xela]

Ohhkey then, slaves will react similar to free chars, except you have to try really hard and long to provoke them 

And since slaves cannot be encountered during GMs, we came to the issue 175.

Caught a cold yesterday, gonna go to bed early today...

Get better soon!

If you have different ideas, lets hear them. I am just putting my own thoughts in the table. It's not "similar" to free characters, they should respond normally and sensibly.

I'll see of anything can be done about #175 tonight. You made a good case on encountering slaves in the city, I just don't know how sensible that that from game play perspective. Concept wise it makes sense, but "concept wise" it doesn't make any sense that you only meet females and only max three at a time either Compromises need to be made until we are ready to improve stuff.