Pink Petal Games

PyTFall => PyTFall: Game design => Topic started by: Xela on November 07, 2014, 12:28:14 PM

Title: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 07, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Ok, so some explanations on how stuff works now and some of my thoughts on how it should work in foreseeable future...

Stats:

Stats in PyTFall are what you'd expect them to be, they describe characters capabilities and compare characters to one another.

Logic:


mod is required to prevent stuff like this:

You have a character with attack of 90 and max attack of 100.
You equip a sword adding 50 more points.
The total (max) is capped with 100.
However when the sword is removed... stat needs to be reverted back to 90 and not become 50 (100 - 50). Also if a character has gained a point, it needs to become 91 and not be lost due to max cap.

min = self-explanatory.

max = absolute maximum the stat is capable of.

level max = absolute maximum a stat is capable of at current level. This is a way to ensure that seriously powerful items cannot be used fully by a weak character (but would still max them out and be useful to them). Every time a level is gained by a character, lvl_max goes up by 5 and normal max by 2. At the start level_max is lower than the max and stats are capped off with that but as character progresses, lvl_max overtakes (and eventually leaves hopelessly behind) normal max and becomes irrelevant, at that point any item can be used to it's fullest potential. Obviously items can only modify normal max or this system would not work. So a sword that adds 100 to max and 100 to attack is of VERY limited use to a noob character while lethal in hands of an advanced one.


Our stats code does all of the above and more:
- it handles death (and ends the game at ANY point automatically if main characters health reaches 0 (*In case of other characters, it removes them from MCs team, employment/ownership, actions/locations))
- it handles level-ups (we use D&D based system but our (true) progression is somewhat more linear at this development stage)
- it handles bonuses from a complex system of traits (part of the bonuses, some are handled by character class (such as those from added effects))
- it automatically restores health, mp and vitality every time new level is reached by any character

what's more, this is used by mobs, complex characters, simple characters, main character (also very different from the rest).


I am not going to go into what every stat is responsible for because even if I do, in a game this complex it will STILL mean different things to different people. So it's up to content creators to play the game, get the feel of stats and decide how to proceed with the content.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 07, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
*Update:
Notes on new skills system:
Skills have two values (counters), one for training and one for actions, for example:

chr.service += 1 will increase action skill.
chr.SERVICE += 1 will increase training skill.
*Note that just one of the letter must be capital: chr.Service += 1 will do the same thing.

chr.get_skill("service") method will return the current value of a skill. I decided to do it a bit differently than originally proposed below:

Training value is always counted at face value.
Action value is being counted at face value unless it's larger than Training value * 3 and everything above that will be divided by 3.

==================
(Not yet implemented)
Traits and Items should be able to do the following:
Increase training multiplier (better training).
Increase action multiplier (better performance).
Increase retrieving the skill multiplier (when getting the actual skill).

Those should be really low (even 0.001) will have an effect. Maybe some items like misc/consumable may be able to increase values themselves (books for example).

*******************************
My thoughts on addons:

Current system does not however extend to a lot of the jobs planned in the future or will require insane amount of stats to go with it...

So I propose the following:

We add counters of trainings and practices for all kinds of actions. It will be very easy to code and understand, seems simple to balance and to control. These we do not expose to the player and use internally.

For example, strip job would add:
strip_action = 0 *Added during jobs
strip_training = 0 *Added during training

We do not create all of this for every character and they will be created "on the fly as required". Otherwise 0 will be returned.

To calculate the actual skill I propose this:

We get the value from the smallest of the two and subtract it from both (one will become 0). Then we take that value and multiply by 3. With this we assume that the best possible combination is one training session for every practice (making training important and more relevant and assume that it provides knowledge that cannot easily be obtained by practice). Than if practice remains, we, we divide it by two and add the the value. If training remains, we just add it to the value.

Some training can provide more points or points to multiple of these skills (like dancing class can provide dance and strip skill for example).

We remove sex stats (Thewlis suggested that already I think) and turn them into skills.


With this system it will make sense to create "ranks" for all occupations (not just prostitute) and add skills to the requirements (still hidden). As skills are gained, we can enable new traits/effects. This will create a potentially interesting system that is easy to manage and to expand and that can serve us for any kind of future development and can even specialize classes. Some ranks would have to be bought like prostitute ranks right now, some will be gained for free when that makes sense.
======================================================

Lets here some thoughts/other options. WM stats system doesn't really serve us anymore as well as it did in the beginning...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 07, 2014, 12:28:38 PM
My views on stats definitions:

charisma: Combination of good looks and general attraction. Also partly covers willingness of other to follow/agree with the character. This is widely used throughout the game.

refinement: Ability of the character to properly behave in high society as well as good manners (or at least a good knowledge of what good manners/etiquette is). *Barely/Not in use atm.

libido: Lust/wish to get laid.  *Barely/Not in use atm.

constitution: Body strength/endurance. AP depend on this stat making it very important. This is not widely used otherwise.

joy: Happiness of the character, it's widely used throughout the game, mostly to determine state of characters mood, pick mood tags, girls quiting employment and so on.

character: Stubbornness, determines how much a character is willing to resist or defend their points of views. Used widely in the game.

reputation: Supposed to be yet another modifier of how trustworthy other characters in the world believe this character to be or how willing they are to deal with this character.  *Barely/Not in use atm.

health: Damage done to the body of a character. Used all over the place.

fame: How well the character is known, this is supposed to be paired with what the characters occupation. Used mostly to boost brothels fame by girls who work there (atm).

mood: Not used at all and prolly will be deleted tomorrow unless someone objects.

disposition: Relationship status between MC and the Character.

vitality: Used to be called fatigue but we've inverted it. This tells us how tired the girl is, originally was supposed to be adjusted automatically by constitution but I am not sure we got as far as coding this in. Otherwise this tells us when a girl should be allowed to rest.

intelligence: How smart a girl is, this is used already (events/some jobs) but jobs that truly require this we do not yet have. This does not enhance magic as it often does in other games (at least not yet).

luck: Used all over. Does exactly what you'd expect it to do.

agility: A batter stat (speed, decided how how fast a character can attack again) that we use to determine speed/dexterity. This could be used in the game outside of be as well.

Battle stats do exactly what you'd expect them to do!

Rest of the stats will be made into skills. We could loose a couple of stats as well, to make game easier to develop.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 07, 2014, 05:40:53 PM
Hi!
I am not going to go into what every stat is responsible for because even if I do, in a game this complex it will STILL mean different things to different people. So it's up to content creators to play the game, get the feel of stats and decide how to proceed with the content.
Please reconsider that. You need people to test stuff (for both functionality and balance) which is almost impossible if we have no idea what each stat is supposed to do.

You can remove that information later on, but it is important for alpha testing.

We remove sex stats (Thewlis suggested that already I think) and turn them into skills.
While you're on that, consider removing the lesbian stat/skill. Either make everything based on body parts (vaginal, anal, oral, digital) or based on gender and sexual orientation.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 07, 2014, 05:49:57 PM
Please reconsider that. You need people to test stuff (for both functionality and balance) which is almost impossible if we have no idea what each stat is supposed to do.

I can write out how I perceive stats tomorrow if required.

While you're on that, consider removing the lesbian stat/skill. Either make everything based on body parts (vaginal, anal, oral, digital) or based on gender and sexual orientation.

With this system, it will be gone as a stat but we need multiple "girls2guy" skills and can function with a single "girl2girl" skill due to a setup of the game. But I expect with the code that creates these "skills" on the fly we can add multiple "girl2girl" skills as well without too much fuss.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 08, 2014, 04:28:49 AM
Then service should be a skill too.

I'm not completely satisfied with our current stats system. I took a look at our archived threads and found our old discussion seven months ago.

Quote from: DarkTl
Charisma is a compelling attractiveness or charm. I'd say it's not the actual beauty (they all are beautiful at pictures), it's the ability to use their beauty correctly.
Not entirely true, makeup or dress matter too. Still pictures are unchangeable and cannot be sorted by beauty because it's time consuming and subjective. If we write in the stat description about the ability to use their beauty correctly, it will solve forever some questions about stats logic.
Quote from: DarkTl
Character is the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions, or something like that. But in the game we use it more like pride or stubbornness
...or rather power of personality. I can't help but recall Morality/Faith/Ethics combination that exists in SM3.
Quote from: DarkTl
Another thing is fitness. Basically, no matter how enduring you are, you cannot always be in top shape without physical activity, that's what it does as a substat in SM3. I always liked the idea.
Quote from: SM wikia
It reduces the Tiredness gains from other actions by a % equal to the Fitness number.  Raising this reduces the amount of tiredness generated by other actions.  As well as increasing the amount that tiredness is recovered by resting.  The cap on this stat can increase past what your constitution is, but gets reset down to it, by certain actions.  Also decreases with constitution as well.  At max, provides a 50% bonus in decreasing fatigue cost, and recovery both via resting and energy potion.
Make sense it terms of life simulation. You have to train all the time to be in a good shape.

Finally, temperament/obedience stats that used widely in other games for ST to determine how well do you train them.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 08, 2014, 07:09:41 AM
Then service should be a skill too.

Yeap.

I'm not completely satisfied with our current stats system. I took a look at our archived threads and found our old discussion seven months ago.
Not entirely true, makeup or dress matter too. Still pictures are unchangeable and cannot be sorted by beauty because it's time consuming and subjective. If we write in the stat description about the ability to use their beauty correctly, it will solve forever some questions about stats logic....or rather power of personality. I can't help but recall Morality/Faith/Ethics combination that exists in SM3.Make sense it terms of life simulation. You have to train all the time to be in a good shape.

I don't expect many people being satisfied with any system borrowed from a different game. We've started with a goal of rewriting WM in Python but moved away from that because some of it's concepts felt outdated. Now we're stuck with stats that require an update.

All this stuff is subjective... same thing as I've wrote in the front post, these stats will mean different things to different people who play and develop the game. That's why I proposed counters, seems really hard to mess that one up.

I think that stuff like Morality/Ethics/Faith is too complex and specific for our game. If you want, we can add "alignment" (Dark/Light), we even had a pretty frame from your graphics for it... I could try my hand at trigonometry again to make it work as a kickass bar. But I prolly want to add this after next release... new stats system seems to be required for the Slave Training (in case we want the module to be ready for the next release).

Finally, temperament/obedience stats that used widely in other games for ST to determine how well do you train them.

*** I still feel strongly against this type of stats. Most girls should just except slavery after a good conversation, those that do not, need to be "broken" the hard way, but that too can be a simple counter. We could have a combination of traits/stats that could make sure that a girl cannot be broken at all too.

I don't mind if you want to create content for the system yourself and use stats as you see fit as long as they don't interfere with the rest of the game but it seems like a lot of complicated, unneeded work. + (we can always expand the module later)
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Thewlis on November 08, 2014, 10:01:37 AM
With this system, it will be gone as a stat but we need multiple "girls2guy" skills and can function with a single "girl2girl" skill due to a setup of the game. But I expect with the code that creates these "skills" on the fly we can add multiple "girl2girl" skills as well without too much fuss.
I'd suggest just having an orientation penalty. So girl flagged as hetro would have a multiplier of 1 with guys, but if they client is female they'd have a multiplier of 0.6 or something. The multiplier could then be increased with homosexual-specific training.

----

Not that it can't be changed in ST with the coming of the new stats, but I used Character as a 'reverse obedience'. While you may not want an obedience stat, having some sort of acceptance stat would help convey to the player how much the girl is willing to do.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 08, 2014, 10:22:58 AM
I'd suggest just having an orientation penalty. So girl flagged as hetro would have a multiplier of 1 with guys, but if they client is female they'd have a multiplier of 0.6 or something. The multiplier could then be increased with homosexual-specific training.

Multipliers could be a nice touch but once again: More work :)

I think we can work with skills like:

Oral (blowjob/cunninglingus)
Sex (Normal)
Anal (Anal)
*maybe a few more.

Not that it can't be changed in ST with the coming of the new stats, but I used Character as a 'reverse obedience'. While you may not want an obedience stat, having some sort of acceptance stat would help convey to the player how much the girl is willing to do.

I like it the way it is... most characters should just agree after explaining their situation to them and especially after promising to free them after 5 - 10 years of loyal service (was a practice in Rome (*In large cities, in rural areas they were often grossly mistreated)). We can have more intensives.

For girls that refuse, it's always seems weird when there is a specific amount of torture character would need to endure to allow be kissed by player, another amount to give a blowjob and yet another amount to work as service girl or prostitute/stripper... that usually ruins the game itself even while at times providing half-decent gameplay...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 08, 2014, 11:40:05 AM
Hi!
Oral (blowjob/cunninglingus)
Sex (Normal)
Anal (Anal)
*maybe a few more.
I'm trying hard not to give you a lesson on official definitions here, but please stop using "sex" as a synonym for "vaginal", because it definitely isn't. Sex is the short term for sexual intercourse which means any form of penetration.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 08, 2014, 11:59:14 AM
Hi!I'm trying hard not to give you a lesson on official definitions here, but please stop using "sex" as a synonym for "vaginal", because it definitely isn't. Sex is the short term for sexual intercourse which means any form of penetration.
Have fun!

That was inherited from WM as well...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: afhlink on November 08, 2014, 11:12:32 PM
Where I live the legal definition of sex is vaginal intercourse with penetration from a penis. Nothing else is considered sex. So, YMMV.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 20, 2014, 04:57:31 PM
Right... so, more on skillz:

Items now accept a new field:

mod_skills: {"strip": [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]}

Where:
0: Multiplier to action counter
1: Multiplier to training counter
2: Multiplier to skill (when getting a total skill value)
3: Adding to action counter
4: Adding to training counter

Traits  now accept a new field:

mod_skills: {"strip": [0, 1, 2]}

Where:
0: Multiplier to action counter
1: Multiplier to training counter
2: Multiplier to skill (when getting a total skill value)

Note: ALL Values need to be specified when creating items or traits! If you do not wish to mod one of the values, just set it to 0.
Note 2: Be careful with multipliers, they can ruin the game. Currently they are hard capped at 1.5 but that is also very, very powerful, multiplier can be very low (like 0.01) as skills can be calculated as floats.
Note 3: Do not use negative values for:
3: Adding to action counter
4: Adding to training counter
I don't think anything bad will happen but I'd prefer characters not to "unlearn"/"untrain" skill points.
Note 4: Game should work but it is currently rigged to simply ignore old stats, we still have a lot of work ahead of us to replace old system with the new.
========================================================================

Questions/Decisions to be made:
I've made the list of old stats in one of the front posts with explanation on how I understand them. What do we keep/add/get rid of?
Current skills: SKILLS = set(["vaginal", "anal", "oral", "strip", "service"]) I just added those for testing purposes. We need to come up with a list of skills and how we're going to use them.
I proposed Ranks for all occupations (like we have for Prostitutes atm.), do you agree with this?
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 21, 2014, 08:39:43 AM
Is "manual" a good name for stuff done with hands? Like a general skill for masturbation/fingering/handjobs and etc?
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 21, 2014, 09:37:38 AM
Hi!
Is "manual" a good name for stuff done with hands? Like a general skill for masturbation/fingering/handjobs and etc?
The correct term would be digital.
Yes, I am aware that digital also has a technical meaning, but I'm quite certain that nobody will confuse the two.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 21, 2014, 09:51:02 AM
Hi!The correct term would be digital.
Yes, I am aware that digital also has a technical meaning, but I'm quite certain that nobody will confuse the two.
Have fun!

Best I could find it means using fingers/toes but it's a lot closer to definition (footjob becomes a much better fit for example and we already have footjobs). "digital" it is unless someone comes up with something better.

Still no comments on other skills? We could use more specific skills like "dancing"/"cooking"/"cleaning" and etc. to supplement skills like "strip"/"service" for example. Would also make good inter-jobs options possibly meaning more interesting gameplay.

We need to come up with some strategy that balances out "every move character makes in the game == skill (coding nightmare)" and "too linear/simple gameplay due to generic, purely job oriented skills"...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 21, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
mod_skills: {"strip": [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]}
Ok, you should clarify this. Action counter = performance,  training counter = learning rate, right?
If action counter is performance, then what skill value does?
Does 0.01 training multiplie means 100 times slower training?

I've made the list of old stats in one of the front posts with explanation on how I understand them. What do we keep/add/get rid of?
I still don't understand how the game, or even players themselves, will track slave progression without usual for such games stats like obedience. It's not like I want to add it badly, but I simply don't have other ideas.

Cherry had an interesting idea about libido. Its max level shows how dissolute character is.
Basically, even if character has max libido level, she shouldn't become a nymphomaniac unless this max level is high enough.

Joy and mood... Do we need a stat for that? You wanted to use flags for various emotions, and happiness/sadness are emotions too.

Many games have (usually hidden) loyalty stat. As long as girl is happy, it gradually grows, and vice versa. So, some new girl that didn't work for you long enough will leave quickly if she didn't like something. While a girl with high loyality will not until loyality become low enough. 0 loyality doesn't mean that girl is unhappy, it just means that she will not tolerate sh#t from your side. I think it's a decent idea. Maybe we should replace joy and/or mood with it.

Even though we don't limit stats, we could try to add diminishing returns, when every next stat point does a bit less than previous one. It will solve some problems with balance that I already have. We already have something like this with AP and constitution, so let's take another step.
It probably should be handled centrally to avoid manually changing all ingame formulas. I thought about limiting some stats at first (you can't be infinitely enduring for example), but this is a much more elegant solution, I think.

Current skills: SKILLS = set(["vaginal", "anal", "oral", "strip", "service"]) I just added those for testing purposes. We need to come up with a list of skills and how we're going to use them.
Attack, defence, magic, magic defence?
Or, rather, melee weapon mastery, ranged weapon mastery, magic mastery for every single element, magic resistance? We can afford many skills now, I guess :)
Also slave training or something for trainers.

I suppose bdsm and group are not really skills, more like readiness to do something, er, unusual. So we skip them here.

The problem is, I wanted things like cooking to be the most useful for MC house. But you don't want to expand it yet, so I don't think they will be very useful without it.

I proposed Ranks for all occupations (like we have for Prostitutes atm.), do you agree with this?
Yeah, I wanted to propose it at some point too.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 21, 2014, 12:02:24 PM
Ok, you should clarify this. Action counter = performance,  training counter = learning rate, right?
If action counter is performance, then what skill value does?

I've clarified it in an update to the second post in this thread, possibly not clear enough:

Action Counter: Increases every time a character performs an action that increases it. (Jobs/Actions are the main source of this, could theoretically happen during training as well).
Leaning Counter: Increases every time a character is being though or otherwise learning an action (schools, slavetraining, NPCs, could happen during Jobs/Actions)
Skill: Is being calculated by adding up both counters with some conditions (explained in second post) and this is being used during jobs and actions (possibly paired with skills/traits when that's sensible).

*So Actions Multi will increase the rate at which girl is learning from practice, Training Multi will increase a rate at which a girls is learning from lessons and skill mupti will ensure that a total skill that is returned is higher.

I think it's best to limit possible skill increase per of 1 per AP spent (before muplies) if more than once skill is being increased, that 1 should be divided in fractions. Will be simpler to work with.

Does 0.01 training multiplie means 100 times slower training?

No, that is being added (or subtracted) from default multiplier (which is 1). So 0.01 to Training Multi basically means that teaching the character becomes 1% more efficient.

I still don't understand how the game, or even players themselves, will track slave progression without usual for such games stats like obedience. It's not like I want to add it badly, but I simply don't have other ideas.

I've explained my vision for this many times before... there should be no "tracking" of progression of obedience, but it's a whole different discussion, lets focus on what's at hand.

Cherry had an interesting idea about libido. Its max level shows how dissolute character is.
Basically, even if character has max libido level, she shouldn't become a nymphomaniac unless this max level is high enough.

How is this beneficial for actual game play? Sounds like a lot of work and checks during the jobs/actions without any significant added benefit. I actually wanted to get rid of libido and use relevant traits whenever required.

Joy and mood... Do we need a stat for that? You wanted to use flags for various emotions, and happiness/sadness are emotions too.

Mood as a stat is idiotic, I don't even remember why we have that as stat and don't believe that we used it in the game once. So unless someone objects, we'll throw it out.

On the other hand, I cannot see the game without joy or similarly called stat. Flags should be used to override joy after a significant event (beating/great date/drug use and etc. until it's sensible to reset the flag), not completely substitute it. "Joy" needs to serve as a scale on "default" mood for the characters.

*This is wide open for a discussion btw... It's just that we've been using joy all over already and it's seems to be working out so far.

Many games have (usually hidden) loyalty stat. As long as girl is happy, it gradually grows, and vice versa. So, some new girl that didn't work for you long enough will leave quickly if she didn't like something. While a girl with high loyality will not until loyality become low enough. 0 loyality doesn't mean that girl is unhappy, it just means that she will not tolerate sh#t from your side. I think it's a decent idea. Maybe we should replace joy and/or mood with it.

That's far too much like disposition... One thing we should not tolerate in the game are two stats that do a very similar thing, that would be a development nightmare in a project of our scale.

I am trying to digest some thoughts about turning disposition into a system of flags and counters in relation between characters (not just between every girl and MC). Or track disposition between different characters as a stat, same as we do now and not just for MC. This is prolly for the future... (maybe distant future).

Even though we don't limit stats, we could try to add diminishing returns, when every next stat point does a bit less than previous one. It will solve some problems with balance that I already have. We already have something like this with AP and constitution, so let's take another step.
It probably should be handled centrally to avoid manually changing all ingame formulas. I thought about limiting some stats at first (you can't be infinitely enduring for example), but this is a much more elegant solution, I think.

I am against this as we already have:

- Slowing down the experience gains as levels increase.
- Have two max levels for each stat.

One of the worst traps in development is constantly trying to introduce deeper and deeper mechanics. Lets try to make it simpler by removing stuff and making stats/skills easier to work with and understand and use tools that we already have at our disposal. You can't claim to having issues with balancing that cannot be resolved while never changing or even asking how/where to change experience per level modifiers or by how much max/lvl_max are being increased per level gained or even what percentage of trait mod value is being applied per level... The first two are beyond important to gameplay, traits thing less so but is still pretty damn powerful for characters with loads of traits... Not mentioning changing the formula for AP increases (all things in the game are centered around AP).

Attack, defence, magic, magic defence?
Or, rather, melee weapon mastery, ranged weapon mastery, magic mastery for every single element, magic resistance? We can afford many skills now, I guess :)
Also slave training or something for trainers.

Former are stats, latter we don't really need at the moment. We use defence for magical defence right now. We'll come back to this when we talks BE/Exploration for real, we can't work on that and everything else we have on the plate atm.

I suppose bdsm and group are not really skills, more like readiness to do something, er, unusual. So we skip them here.

Traits then? We can divide between "sex" skills in this case paired with a trait (something similar would have to be done for lesbian). I or Thewlis will try to automate this somehow (prolly a method for pytcharacter class) or a function.

The problem is, I wanted things like cooking to be the most useful for MC house. But you don't want to expand it yet, so I don't think they will be very useful without it.

Requests for slaves trained in them?

Yeah, I wanted to propose it at some point too.

Ok, every rank should have a requirement for skills, stats and possibly traits. In some cases, pricetag as well.

*We can also use these ranks during training/slave training.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 21, 2014, 01:10:59 PM
Btw, you forgot agility.
I think we use it outside of BE too.

I've explained my vision for this many times before...
Every time it sounded like something vague and purely theoretical to me. Almost like our discussions about EE  ::)

I actually wanted to get rid of libido and use relevant traits whenever required.
Hm? Nymphomaniac and Frigid? Isn't it a bit too few to work with?
It will kill a lot of items that have something to do with libido too. Though I'm not against it, just warning.

Mood as a stat is idiotic, I don't even remember why we have that as stat and don't believe that we used it in the game once.
I remember. You asked how can we use it, and I proposed a system when a girl wants to do something specific (shopping, date, sex, fighting, etc) ie she is in a mood to do it. You approved. It cannot be a simple stat, of course. But it still could be implemented and used.

Traits then? We can divide between "sex" skills in this case paired with a trait (something similar would have to be done for lesbian). I or Thewlis will try to automate this somehow (prolly a method for pytcharacter class) or a function.
I think lesbian should be a separate skill, because both lesbians and straight ones could master and use it, but it should be harder for latter ones. Same for "usual" sex, of course.
As for bdsm and group, I see them as a combination of flags (= ready to do, depending on some things like occupation, traits, etc) and multiple stats (group = sex+anal+oral, bdsm = required sex skill + constitution + character or something).

Requests for slaves trained in them?
You mean cooking and so on? I don't think we can use it without MC house yet. And it's not like the file with skills code will become read-only tomorrow, so we always can add more later  :)
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 21, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
Btw, you forgot agility.
I think we use it outside of BE too.

Yeap, I did...

Every time it sounded like something vague and purely theoretical to me. Almost like our discussions about EE  ::)

I thought that I went into great detail at least once, but I could be mistaken... nm for now.

Hm? Nymphomaniac and Frigid? Isn't it a bit too few to work with?
It will kill a lot of items that have something to do with libido too. Though I'm not against it, just warning.

Lets see if others have something to say. We could keep it but it just mean more work and I cannot see any significant added benefit.

I remember. You asked how can we use it, and I proposed a system when a girl wants to do something specific (shopping, date, sex, fighting, etc) ie she is in a mood to do it. You approved. It cannot be a simple stat, of course. But it still could be implemented and used.

I don't remember this at all. This sounds too advanced even for late stages of the game, girls can simply decide based on traits/joy/other stats (healing on low health) for example.

I think lesbian should be a separate skill, because both lesbians and straight ones could master and use it, but it should be harder for latter ones. Same for "usual" sex, of course.

We could prolly use a better name than lesbian, like "gay" or something and use that paired with other sex skills. This would make sense and we could use traits to boost/penalize this skill!. Actually this sounds like a decent plan... +(we may add male/futa characters if someone comes along who's willing to work with that sort of content).

As for bdsm and group, I see them as a combination of flags (= ready to do, depending on some things like occupation, traits, etc) and multiple stats (group = sex+anal+oral, bdsm = required sex skill + constitution + character or something).

Ok, that's why we're discussing this, to find a good balance of the skills we require. We can condition them as you describe.

You mean cooking and so on? I don't think we can use it without MC house yet. And it's not like the file with skills code will become read-only tomorrow, so we always can add more later  :)

We can use them in the ST. It can be added later, sure.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 21, 2014, 02:26:13 PM
Now I wonder if we need more narrow skills. Like in SM3, where they have skills from kissing to tribadism.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 21, 2014, 02:58:38 PM

Do we need intelligence?  I think "clever" traits could just give learning bonuses directly to skills with this new system.
Or if we want keep it, maybe make some learning bonus derived from that stat itself, so it's actually useful for something 
----------
Actually, what you want to do with the old stats (charisma, refinement..etc)? Looks to me that anything that is not a state (HP, MP, Vitality, Joy, Disposition, Reputation?) could be somehow converted to a skill or just trait bonus.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 21, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
Hi!
Best I could find it means using fingers/toes but it's a lot closer to definition (footjob becomes a much better fit for example and we already have footjobs). "digital" it is unless someone comes up with something better.
You're absolutely right that digital sex also includes footjobs and the likes, but I thought it was intentional to unify some skills to get rid of some unnecessary ones.

Either way, I don't really have an opinion on skills other than the ones relevant for sex, but about those I have one thing to say:
Please stop mixing up body parts, sexual orientation and sex types.
I asked for that before (maybe even twice), but I was pretty much ignored.

Vaginal, anal, oral and digital are body parts. Having a skill based on them makes sense, it basically is an indicator for how well the girl can pleasure others with it.
Lesbian (or gay) is a sexual orientation. A skill based on that doesn't make much sense to me, but if you want it in the game then you need a skill for straight sex as well.
Group or BDSM (in this case) are specific sex types or sexual activities. An own skill for every of those does make sense - how well does the character perform in a specific situation - but it would basically mean that you need to have a skill for almost every sex related tag there is. That's a lot of skills.

It doesn't really matter how many of those categories you want to cover with skills (although I think one is enough), but including a few from each category and ignoring the rest is definitely not good.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 21, 2014, 04:03:44 PM
Do we need intelligence?  I think "clever" traits could just give learning bonuses directly to skills with this new system.
Or if we want keep it, maybe make some learning bonus derived from that stat itself, so it's actually useful for something  :)

It should supplement skills and jobs in the future that would be rooted in intelligence. I think we cannot loose this stat... we need something that defines girls intelect better than traits do (at least imo).

In my mind, stats that we absolutely should have and reasons for having them:

charisma (beauty/ability to use good looks in jobs/daily life, required due to a nature of the game to supplement a LOT of the jobs that we have)
health (obvious reasons, game can hardly function without it)
vitality (characters need to rest. This is the best way of determining when as counters/skills or anything else for that matter is a lot harder to work in our game with than a simple hardcapped stat (I gave this a good deal of thought)).
intelligence (may not be apparent right now, but this will serve us greatly in the future)
constitution: Closest thing we have to strength/endurance.
luck (just because it's a lot of great fun)

Basically I think that our game requires three "MUST have stats that describe the character": Beauty, Strength, Intelligence. Health, Vitality and Luck are there to make game play more fun/coherent.

Others:

character: (if only to serve as "inverted obedience"). We can do without it as it can be handle through flags.
disposition: May not be the best way to handle this, a system of flags/counters may serve us far better but is also likely to mean a lot more work.
fame: This is tricky... and not a clear stat as cannot mean "fame" through out the game world due to being very easy to achieve. This made sense when we only had brothels and before the expansion of game concept took place. Right now I cannot justify this stat as a girl that gained fame as a whore or a stripper should not carry it over if she changes profession to "maid" or "warrior" for example. In fact former "fame" may actually hurt in some cases. This is one stat we may get rid of.
reputation: Same as above... reputation as what? Decent human being (than it should be called alignment/dark or light side or something like that), otherwise wtf reputation is cannot really be determined. Another stat we may get rid of...
joy: I think this is actually working out for us but as Dark said, it may work better as flags/counters (but prolly more work too).
libido: Discussed a bit already, I fail to see the value of this other than adding another level of "checks". I can't really tell if we should keep it or not...
refinement: I believe this to be quite useless. This should be removed as a stat and turned into a skill or skills, at least I cannot clearly see how this is important enough to the game to be a stat or how we're going to use it to make the game fun or game play significantly better.
Mood we will kill.

Battle Skills:
agility (Speed). We don't really need, it's a requirement for BE that we currently have. This could be of limited use during events and if we ever create something like a Thief Guild/Crime Guild to supplement skills during jobs.
attack: This should be a skill (logically) and be supplemented by constitution (it's what passes for Strength in the game) but that would be a bit awkward to work with I expect.
defence: Same as above, also should be a skill and supplemented by constitution.
magic: Same thing but supplemented by intelligence.
mp: Also just for fun/better game play. We could use health/vitality for this (but not gonna :) ).
===============================================


You're absolutely right that digital sex also includes footjobs and the likes, but I thought it was intentional to unify some skills to get rid of some unnecessary ones.

Yeap, I meant it as a clear point towards naming it "digital".

Either way, I don't really have an opinion on skills other than the ones relevant for sex, but about those I have one thing to say:
Please stop mixing up body parts, sexual orientation and sex types.
I asked for that before (maybe even twice), but I was pretty much ignored.

Vaginal, anal, oral and digital are body parts. Having a skill based on them makes sense, it basically is an indicator for how well the girl can pleasure others with it.
Lesbian (or gay) is a sexual orientation. A skill based on that doesn't make much sense to me, but if you want it in the game then you need a skill for straight sex as well.
Group or BDSM (in this case) are specific sex types or sexual activities. An own skill for every of those does make sense - how well does the character perform in a specific situation - but it would basically mean that you need to have a skill for almost every sex related tag there is. That's a lot of skills.

Try to remember that we've been thinking about this topic in "WM" pattern for two years. Thought patterns are hard to break...

It might make sense to add gay/straight as skills but we could simply check for corresponding traits and using the sex skills that we have.

BDSM I believe should be a separate skill. Otherwise I have no idea how our body parts skills are relevant to bondage at all. Anything in between, we can just use multiple skills.

Group we can use traits + body parts skills (like proposed above for orientations).

It doesn't really matter how many of those categories you want to cover with skills (although I think one is enough), but including a few from each category and ignoring the rest is definitely not good.

Whatever we go with, I agree that consistency in this case is very important.

Now I wonder if we need more narrow skills. Like in SM3, where they have skills from kissing to tribadism.

I am against this... Kissing can be generalized into oral and tribadism into vaginal. It's easier to work with, narrow skills are obviously more precise but prolly also costly in terms of dev time and balancing.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 21, 2014, 04:53:40 PM
Well... I agree with any simplification. Even with the recent additions, the gameplay is still very straightforward so I don't think there is a need for complex stats.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 06:26:38 AM
Character as personality/stubbornness is not needed because we describe it via traits like tsundere, meek, iron will, etc. Used widely in the game, but traits can do it much more accurately. If you want to remove it, I don't mind. Though it probably won't be easy.

Intelligence... We do have 4 traits for it (and absence of them is the fifth trait). I think that we should divide Intelligence and knowledge here. Irl your IQ doesn't usually increase over time, at least not indefinitely. While you always can obtain more knowledge.
So I propose to use traits to determine the level of intelligence (when needed), and rename Intelligence stat to knowledge or something like that. Retarded and genius characters both can obtain more knowledge about the world over time, but at different rates. By knowledge we can mean anything, from ability to write (let's say, 10) to quantum physics (let's say, 1000).

You right about fame, famous warrior and famous whore are different things. Flags will be much better here.

Disposition... In case of relationships between characters simple flags is the way to go. But we need more clear and complex concept if you want to replace disposition to MC. If you have one, let's hear it.

I see refinement as a knowledge about society, manners, fashion, conversation, rules of behavior, etiquette, etc. I guess it could be a skill as well, it's not as deep and important as general Knowledge stat.

Agility is used in some formulas that calculate income during job. And it makes sense, speed and dexterity do matter sometimes. I'm not sure if it should be stat or skill though. Because of BE we cannot change it to traits.

Joy and mood. You see, joy implies two sides, happiness and sadness. While mood is a more general concept.
If you prefer to use flags, it's more logical to remove joy and use mood as a general base value.

Libido as a stat that decreases after sex acts as not too useful. Maybe we can use it as a bit more constant stat that works like virtue in AA, if you know what I mean. And even then traits will be better.

Reputation. We have traits for alignment btw, and I don't think we should change it (maybe add more traits later).
Reputation of a social entity is an opinion about that entity, typically a result of social evaluation on a set of criteria according to wiki. So it's opinion about the character depending on her actions. Probably too complex for our game.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 07:11:39 AM
Character as personality/stubbornness is not needed because we describe it via traits like tsundere, meek, iron will, etc. Used widely in the game, but traits can do it much more accurately. If you want to remove it, I don't mind. Though it probably won't be easy.

I can't tell how difficult it is to remove as well. We'll make this decision after we figure out how slaves are "broken".

Intelligence... We do have 4 traits for it (and absence of them is the fifth trait). I think that we should divide Intelligence and knowledge here. Irl your IQ doesn't usually increase over time, at least not indefinitely. While you always can obtain more knowledge.
So I propose to use traits to determine the level of intelligence (when needed), and rename Intelligence stat to knowledge or something like that. Retarded and genius characters both can obtain more knowledge about the world over time, but at different rates. By knowledge we can mean anything, from ability to write (let's say, 10) to quantum physics (let's say, 1000).

Try not to translate it to rl so precisely. We're not going to rename the stat as intelligence is more wide used in the game and knowledge is too close to skills.

Wisdom is an option... but renaming from int to wis is prolly not very sensible.

You right about fame, famous warrior and famous whore are different things. Flags will be much better here.

I'll look into getting rid of it.

Disposition... In case of relationships between characters simple flags is the way to go. But we need more clear and complex concept if you want to replace disposition to MC. If you have one, let's hear it.

I don't. Never thought about it in any detail, it will not be easy to come up with one either.

I see refinement as a knowledge about society, manners, fashion, conversation, rules of behavior, etiquette, etc. I guess it could be a skill as well, it's not as deep and important as general Knowledge stat.

That's right, do we keep it or not? It's a fairly straight forward stat that is not used very widely so it shouldn't hurt the development...

Agility is used in some formulas that calculate income during job. And it makes sense, speed and dexterity do matter sometimes. I'm not sure if it should be stat or skill though. Because of BE we cannot change it to traits.

Joy and mood. You see, joy implies two sides, happiness and sadness. While mood is a more general concept.
If you prefer to use flags, it's more logical to remove joy and use mood as a general base value.

Screw mood, we didn't use it and will not use it.

I think that we need to keep joy as a stat and come up with descriptions for mood states, displaying them instead of a number. Same goes for disposition. I am not good at picking names when obfuscating stats...

Libido as a stat that decreases after sex acts as not too useful. Maybe we can use it as a bit more constant stat that works like virtue in AA, if you know what I mean. And even then traits will be better.

So we get rid of it?

Reputation. We have traits for alignment btw, and I don't think we should change it (maybe add more traits later).
Reputation of a social entity is an opinion about that entity, typically a result of social evaluation on a set of criteria according to wiki. So it's opinion about the character depending on her actions. Probably too complex for our game.

Yeah, lets get rid of it as well. It comes with all the issues fame does. Simple flags will do.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 09:28:59 AM
Try not to translate it to rl so precisely. We're not going to rename the stat as intelligence is more wide used in the game and knowledge is too close to skills.
Oh? I believe we should use common logic rather than try to come up with a new one only to justify something useless.

It's barely used so far, it's best to rename it while we can. And even though we changed the system a bit, it's still totally possible to have retarded character with more intelligence than genius, which is ridiculous.
We could call it education, scholarship, erudition. Even wisdom, though it's a much more vague name.

Make refinement a skill, remove libido.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 10:11:15 AM
Oh? I believe we should use common logic rather than try to come up with a new one only to justify something useless.

You know that I think in the same way but you're getting carried away. When players see int stat in the game, they will not think iq and try to compare it to Einstein and Hawking. My point is that we need the stat and it is not sensible to rename it (like it was sensible to rename the fatigue due to being the only inverted stat in the game).

It's barely used so far, it's best to rename it while we can. And even though we changed the system a bit, it's still totally possible to have retarded character with more intelligence than genius, which is ridiculous.
We could call it education, scholarship, erudition. Even wisdom, though it's a much more vague name.

Renaming it does not fix the problem (an educated scholar with a retard trait is just as much of a game breaker), traits is a WM concept that is far from perfect. When we were talking stats with Rudi still being here for the first time, I investigated how traits and stats worked in WM and it has none of the precautionary measures that PyTFall has (stats on removal of items, "True" traits vs traits induced by equipped items and etc.)

It would make more sense to condition specific traits with hardcode, like limiting intelligence to 50 if the character has a retarded trait (lots of work) or simply remove all traits that simply double the stats we have in the game.

* IMO: We need to get rid of traits that plainly set stat levels (because we already have stats).

Big Boobs/Great Figure are good traits because girls with great figure and big boobs can still be butt ugly and repulsive while those are always a good advantage to have none the less. Genius is a bad trait because it plainly means that a stat value of the girl needs to be higher (or one of the highest) out of any characters in the game. The problem here is NOT the stat, it's a trait...

Make refinement a skill, remove libido.

Right so we at this point:

We keep:
charisma
health
vitality
intelligence
constitution
luck
character
disposition
joy
agility
Battle Skills *Still under question of if we should turn this into skills... but we keep them none the less.

We kill:

fame * Will become simple flags required for gameplay/events.
mood * Just removed.
reputation * Will become simple flags required for gameplay/events.
refinement *Will be split into skills.

Not decided:

libido
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 10:38:05 AM
In that case we should also remove traits from fragile to athletic because we have constitution. Probably some other traits, like broken and iron will (character), dawdler and energetic (agility).

However, stats are not nearly as good in describing character as traits. While it's difficult to do with charisma part, levels of constitution and intelligence are usually obvious for any character. How are we supposed to describe genius character with the current leveling system? Set int to max? There won't be any difference after a couple of levels.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 11:00:22 AM
In that case we should also remove traits from fragile to athletic because we have constitution. Probably some other traits, like broken and iron will (character), dawdler and energetic (agility).

However, stats are not nearly as good in describing character as traits. While it's difficult to do with charisma part, levels of constitution and intelligence are usually obvious for any character. How are we supposed to describe genius character with the current leveling system? Set int to max? There won't be any difference after a couple of levels.

I agree, there is some another options but they all lead to some silly mechanics...

We need to figure out a way to handle unique cases, fragile trait for example really stands out in WM. Having both traits and stats basically doing the same damn thing is not useful, we need to either come up with a way to combine them into one concept (traits being removed on stats reaching specific value for example) or do the right thing (what you said, removing traits that basically suggest some stat value for any character in relationship to all other characters).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 11:56:18 AM
Traits could affect leveling process, for example usual character gets 4 points per level to max int, retarded 1 and genius 8.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 12:13:37 PM
Traits could affect leveling process, for example usual character gets 4 points per level to max int, retarded 1 and genius 8.

That's an options as well, isn't hard to code either (like at all).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 12:29:53 PM
Ok, then instead of current system, when traits effects apply gradually depending on level, we need system when traits modify leveling values for stats and maybe skills.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 12:51:22 PM
Ok, then instead of current system, when traits effects apply gradually depending on level, we need system when traits modify leveling values for stats and maybe skills.

One doesn't exclude the other. Current system makes perfect sense in most cases. It's the traits that suggest relative stats values are the problem!

I'll look into adding new option for the traits (how they mod the level during level-up). Right now I am trying to build in a retrieval mechanism for girls caught during SE.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 01:43:46 PM
Yeah, but logic becomes too complicated without a good reason. Instead of old system (I believe we implement 1/100 of mod stat per level) let's use, let's say, level_mod, level_min and level_max variables, and every time just add then during level ups.
I don't really see difference between adding 1/100 of 100 luck per level and just adding 1 luck per level, except the latter one is simplier to explain, track and understand.

Ideally, we could control how often the trait works. For example, +1 max every 3 levels and +2 mod every level.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 22, 2014, 02:11:15 PM
Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 

btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have experience levels? Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them without being limited by exp maximums)

EDIT: just forget about this, I'm thinking nonsense again
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 02:15:35 PM
Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 


btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have levels?
I think we don't have max level. Players can grind and level up as long as they want to.
And maybe skills should be limited by level as well.
Still there are plenty of things that increase over level ups. Health and mp for instance.

Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them without being limited by exp maximums)
Maybe. I don't mind either way.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 03:17:21 PM
Yeah, but logic becomes too complicated without a good reason. Instead of old system (I believe we implement 1/100 of mod stat per level) let's use, let's say, level_mod, level_min and level_max variables, and every time just add then during level ups.
I don't really see difference between adding 1/100 of 100 luck per level and just adding 1 luck per level, except the latter one is simplier to explain, track and understand.

Ideally, we could control how often the trait works. For example, +1 max every 3 levels and +2 mod every level.

But in this case, there is a good reason, isn't there. Current system fits really well with most traits.

"Old" system worked like WM system, just added a mod to the stat. We expanded it to add 10% of the mod every five levels.

Max/Min values are being applied whenever the trait is applied.

lvl_max I don't want to change under any conditions, there is also no reason to do so. Max value we can work with.

So... basically, you we can narrow it down to:

mod: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
max: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}

Problem with this:

How do we handle cumulative effects from the traits? This can really mess up the game. If there are multiple traits, modding the same stats, it can become chaos really quickly.

Can't traits like "genius" just increase the max level of stat that girl can ever reach? Like, if the value of intelligence for normal girl at her maximum level would be capped at 300, "genius" girl could reach 400. 

That's similar to how it is working at the moment but at higher levels traits plainly get lost in the process (A max does not ensure stat value so a girl with a Genius trait can have 10/400 intelligence at level +/-140). Also we do not have hardcaps like that and are not likely to add them.

btw. if we convert most of the important stuff to skills, do we still need to have experience levels? Wouldn't a skill progression system be better? (increase skills by doing them and not with exp related maximums)

Not "most", ALL of the important stuff (Charisma, Endurance, Intelligence) remain stats. Skills are counters of trainings and actions and are therefor excluded from leveling system.

==============================================================================
Regardless of what we do, traits like Genius and Retarded will NOT work unless we simply minimize intelligence at 1000 or hardcap it to 10 (respectively) whenever the trait is applied. If we care about sh!t like this, it's prolly best to get rid of these traits that simply describe the characters relative to other characters in the game because for as long as we have stats and allow huge differences between them at different levels, these traits will NEVER work for us without raising questions.

*On the other hand, it's not really that big of a deal to be inconsistent about stuff like that. We already had one successful release and NOONE! complained about that or even mentioned it...  Legitimate complains were:
- inconsistent interface (fixed by Gismo in most places)
- balancing
- items management (Auto-Equip, Equipping from MCs inventory were requested) (we improved this a lot)
- click-able areas on the map being too small (fixed)
- no explanation about mechanics anywhere
- excessive scope (game concept being too broad) *It;s the way we develop it, so it cannot really be fixed
- too little immersion *no arguments here... still the case
- too little incentive to follow the repetitive actions (this is true but I never got the feeling that it bothered a lot of people).
- Next Day reports had to be compressed (that we did with the summary screen)
- Random girls pics being quite clearly from different characters (Dark didn't mind that)

What we're discussing is prolly to irrelevant to gameplay...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 22, 2014, 03:39:46 PM
What we're discussing is prolly to irrelevant to gameplay...
I don't mind unlimited system itself (no lv cap), I played a few fun rpg games like that, but those usually had a content that leveled itself in relation to the player to some extent (generated item stats, etc.) and wasn't really trying to be realistic.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 03:48:56 PM
I don't mind unlimited system itself (no lv cap), I played a few fun rpg games like that, but those usually had a content that leveled itself in relation to the player to some extent (generated item stats, etc.) and wasn't really trying to be realistic.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).

That's true and is also one of the reasons that we're moving to skills. It should be mentioned that we do not really expect players to play for 10000+ days either...

This is a difficult topic because of the complexity of the game itself... some of these questions simply don't have good answers, we just need to pick something and roll with it.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 22, 2014, 03:54:34 PM
But in this case, there is a good reason, isn't there. Current system fits really well with most traits.

"Old" system worked like WM system, just added a mod to the stat. We expanded it to add 10% of the mod every five levels.
I remember I changed it a bit, but I don't remember how. I made 5%, I think.
Anyway, it means that at some level trait stops working during level ups, right? When you have all 100%, ie at 50 level for 10%. That's why I'd prefer another system.

lvl_max I don't want to change under any conditions, there is also no reason to do so. Max value we can work with.
My bad, I didn't mean our lvl_max, it was an example of name.

So... basically, you we can narrow it down to:

mod: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
max: {"stat": [every_so_many_levels, value]}
Yup, would be cool.

How do we handle cumulative effects from the traits? This can really mess up the game. If there are multiple traits, modding the same stats, it can become chaos really quickly.
I expect many traits to affect skills only. Many of others are mutually exclusive. Leave it to me, I'll make sure that nothing bad will happen.

Regardless of what we do, traits like Genius and Retarded will NOT work unless we simply minimize intelligence at 1000 or hardcap it to 10 (respectively) whenever the trait is applied. If we care about sh!t like this, it's prolly best to get rid of these traits that simply describe the characters relative to other characters in the game because for as long as we have stats and allow huge differences between them at different levels, these traits will NEVER work for us without raising questions.
Perhaps we have no choice but to do so for some of traits. Mind Fucked, for example, is supposed to be a powerful trait that makes a girl more or less crazy, defendless and mindless.

- Random girls pics being quite clearly from different characters (Dark didn't mind that)
You don't like pack, you don't use it. Simple as that.

EDIT: just forget about this, I'm thinking nonsense again
I knew you gonna delete the post. So I quoted it asap before answering, making it useless  :D
Don't let Xela's criticism to discourage you.

It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).
I'll think about it.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: CherryWood on November 22, 2014, 03:55:29 PM
It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).

Heh, I just realized how this should be - it should be the same as the rank for the girls. So beggars and such = same as rank 1 girls and on the other side, "top dogs" of the city should have stats on the same values as is the prerequisites for the top profession rank. 

So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it. (so "well-known high skilled but not yet nation famous" wizard should have intelligence between 120-200 using this logic)
 
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
I remember I changed it a bit, but I don't remember how. I made 5%, I think.
Anyway, it means that at some level trait stops working during level ups, right? When you have all 100%, ie at 50 level for 10%. That's why I'd prefer another system.

You did change it (just checked) but forgot to change it during trait application/removal as well... so it's half done.

No, they just continue to add to stat, it doesn't matter what level you're at.

Yup, would be cool.
I expect many traits to affect skills only. Many of others are mutually exclusive. Leave it to me, I'll make sure that nothing bad will happen.

Ok but my time next week for the project will be close to none I expect :(

Perhaps we have no choice to do so for some of traits. Mind Fucked, for example, is supposed to be a powerful trait that makes a girl more or less crazy, defendless and mindless.

True, but it also creates the need to check for it during every event/job that can include any girl. That's beyond frustrating... Allowing so many characters in the game comes with a price. It's not that we can't have this trait in the game, it's that it seems to require so much work and confusion for so little benefit that it's a question if it's worth having them at all.

Don't let Xela's criticism to discourage you.

I don't think that I criticize btw...

Heh, I just realized how this should be - it should be the same as the rank for the girls. So beggars and such = same as rank 1 girls and on the other side, "top dogs" of the city should have stats on the same values as is the prerequisites for the top profession rank. 

So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it.

Sorry... it's actually pretty obvious  ::)

Yeap, that's one way, we have been talking ranks for other occupations as well :)
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 22, 2014, 04:14:09 PM
So if currently refinement 120 is required for high-class courtesan, it would make sense for any character with a skill over 120 to be considered "high class" in it. (so "high skilled but not yet nation famous" wizard should have intelligence between 120-200 using this logic)

Skills will enhance this. You'd need a lot of skill points to get ranks, skills can be obtained by many means but specific ranks will require actual practice and education (or combination of both/any really). That will be main difference between skills and stats.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 23, 2014, 04:08:57 AM
Instead of creating absolute maximum that cannot be exceeded inless the trait is removed we could try negative values for mod and mod/max per level.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 23, 2014, 05:45:08 AM
Instead of creating absolute maximum that cannot be exceeded inless the trait is removed we could try negative values for mod and mod/max per level.

No a good idea, that kind of suggests that characters are getting dumber/uglier/weaker over time, traits we have problems with atm do not suggest it.

We can rename them... "Genius" to "Great Mind" or "Intellectual aptitude/gift". That would mean about the same thing and not suggest a value of a stat relative to other characters.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 23, 2014, 07:52:21 AM
Hi!
We already had one successful release and NOONE! complained about that or even mentioned it...
Nobody complained?

Currently, most traits are just attribute modifications that don't have a meaning at all, especially since there are three other ways of gaining attribute points (experience, training and equipment).
Right. Nobody at all.  :D
Just so you don't have to read the context, back then I was referring to traits not having unique mechanics (which is not the point here) and to the fact that many traits are redundant with attributes.

The quintessence (that I mentioned in the quoted post): Remove all traits that don't have a unique influence. If a trait does nothing but modifying minimum, current and/or maximum stats, then modify the stats instead of using a trait.

And by the way, I think renaming intelligence to knowledge does make sense (DarkTI's reasons are valid). Renaming an attribute should be a matter of seconds in a modern IDE and if people don't want things to change then they shouldn't play an alpha version.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 23, 2014, 08:28:48 AM
Hi!Nobody complained?
Right. Nobody at all.  :D
Just so you don't have to read the context, back then I was referring to traits not having unique mechanics (which is not the point here) and to the fact that many traits are redundant with attributes.

The quintessence (that I mentioned in the quoted post): Remove all traits that don't have a unique influence. If a trait does nothing but modifying minimum, current and/or maximum stats, then modify the stats instead of using a trait.

And by the way, I think renaming intelligence to knowledge does make sense (DarkTI's reasons are valid). Renaming an attribute should be a matter of seconds in a modern IDE and if people don't want things to change then they shouldn't play an alpha version.
Have fun!

Right... well, to be fair, I meant that nobody noticed (for example) Genius Girl with significantly lower int stats than her counterpart or complained about it. We're on the same side on this one, I too keep suggesting that it's prolly a better bet to remove traits.

"knowledge" I am against, maybe it's the matter of English not being my first language but to me personally, knowledge points to something specific. Even general knowledge does not reflect what I want this stat to reflect.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 23, 2014, 08:38:17 AM
Hi!
I meant that nobody noticed (for example) Genius Girl with significantly lower int stats than her counterpart or complained about it.
Alright, my bad for misreading it then.
I guess things like your example are very subtle because it only gets obvious if you directly compare one character's traits and attributes to another.

Even general knowledge does not reflect what I want this stat to reflect.
I see. Maybe perception would be the better choice then? It's a very common stat in RPGs and it is definitely easier to learn than acquiring intelligence. Wisdom might be an option as well as it is a lot less specific than knowledge.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 23, 2014, 10:42:11 AM
I see. Maybe perception would be the better choice then? It's a very common stat in RPGs and it is definitely easier to learn than acquiring intelligence. Wisdom might be an option as well as it is a lot less specific than knowledge.

Wisdom is a good candidate, but it's usually a battle stat in these kinds of games.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 24, 2014, 05:51:19 AM
It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).
Ok, it's a good question, for both stats and skills. Without maximums (and I don't want to add them) one of the ways is use levels. Like 0-50 is horrible, 50-100 bad, ..., 800-1000 excellent, more than 1000 is godly. Or something like that.
We could actually use these levels as flags, or just ignore them and use only in gui.

Then again, we don't have to do anything here.

Wisdom is a good candidate, but it's usually a battle stat in these kinds of games.
In NWN games that are based on D&D it used for both spells and dialogue checks.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 24, 2014, 08:05:08 AM
Ok, it's a good question, for both stats and skills. Without maximums (and I don't want to add them) one of the ways is use levels. Like 0-50 is horrible, 50-100 bad, ..., 800-1000 excellent, more than 1000 is godly. Or something like that.
We could actually use these levels as flags, or just ignore them and use only in gui.

Then again, we don't have to do anything here.

I or Thewlis will come up with a way to get "True Skill" for actions/jobs on per case basis based on skills, relevant stats and (maybe) traits as well. First we need to finalize stats/skills/traits names/ranks concepts. It's hard to proceed with writing the code until these things ain't set in stone.

In NWN games that are based on D&D it used for both spells and dialogue checks.

Well... I really, REALLY don't mind intelligence stat but if you want a change, wisdom is the best option for renaming it so far.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 25, 2014, 08:52:46 AM
Either we rename traits or stat. And it's easier to find a good name and description for one stat than for 4 traits. As for changing checks in the code, traits have them too.
I don't mind wisdom either.

Of course we don't have to rename anything, but when one thing has stat and several traits as its description, it can't be good for logic, both common and machine ones.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 26, 2014, 02:47:07 AM
So, skills.
- Service: general ability to serve the customer, leaving him pleased. Waitress, bartender, etc.
- Cleaning: ability to perform cleaning quickly and efficiently. Cleaner mostly, but others could use it too to produce less dirt.
- Refinement: knowledge about society, manners, fashion, rules of behavior, etiquette. For jobs that require to socialize a lot.
- Vaginal, oral, anal skills. I propose to actually use two sets, for straight and lesbian ones. I believe they require a bit different skills (can't say for sure, but still  ::) ). We also could tie them to each other, so when for example straight oral skill gets 5 points, lesbian gets 1-2 points, and vice versa.
- Group and bdsm. We could add bdsm skill, but I don't think that we need something more than multiple checks for group actions. It probably needs two sides though, sadistic and masochistic, or it could depend on traits solely.
- Cooking. To make it work, we actually need a kitchen. I don't think brothels are supposed to have one. But we always can add restaurants or sleazy bars (like in SM3). Also will be useful for MC house.
- Dancing, singing, music. I recall there were events with dancing and singing in wm. So we could use it to entertain customers too. Then again, usual brothels don't need it, bars/restaurants do.
- Striptease. For the job. Dancing skill is useful here too, but it's still not the same thing.
- Paperwork, or bookkeeping, or accountancy, or something like this. Useful for matronas, secretaries, etc.
- Leadership/domination/plain slave training or something to train slaves. Actually, there could be two skills: how well they teach others and how well they force slaves to obey. Teaching skill could be useful in the future, if girls could teach each other.
- Exploring, for SE. How they they, well, explore stuff to find items and random girls.
- Healing/medicine/nurse, not sure about the name. There are many characters that are able to heal in one way or another. Even though we don't have mechanics to do so currently, we most likely will.

Either there should be the way to set starting skills in girls data, or I will create traits for them (for example, healing trait for Sakura).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 26, 2014, 08:21:46 AM
- Vaginal, oral, anal skills. I propose to actually use two sets, for straight and lesbian ones. I believe they require a bit different skills (can't say for sure, but still  ::) ). We also could tie them to each other, so when for example straight oral skill gets 5 points, lesbian gets 1-2 points, and vice versa.
You really love your lesbian skill, don't you.
I'll try to put it as simple as possible: There is no need for it. The body part skills that I mentioned earlier (vaginal, anal, oral, digital) cover everything necessary for all gender combinations (except that vaginal should of course be renamed for male characters).

- Group and bdsm. We could add bdsm skill, but I don't think that we need something more than multiple checks for group actions. It probably needs two sides though, sadistic and masochistic, or it could depend on traits solely.
How well can the character please multiple customers at once? That's acceptable.
How well can the character... do what? Take part in bondage interactions? That's not a skill. It depends on how obedient you are (which is a trait) and how much you like pain (which is also a trait). No point in having a skill.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 26, 2014, 08:52:58 AM
You really love your lesbian skill, don't you.
I believe there is a difference between sucking and licking in case of oral for example, with very different techniques, poses and erogenous zones. Also I believe there is the same difference between straight sex and using equipment like strapons and dildos for lesbian sex.

Basically, I think that if someone is experienced in straight anal sex, it doesn't mean that he is equally experienced in gay anal sex without even trying it.

How well can the character... do what? Take part in bondage interactions?
I think it requires certain experience, and the same could be said about group.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 26, 2014, 11:37:39 AM
I believe there is a difference between sucking and licking in case of oral for example, with very different techniques, poses and erogenous zones. Also I believe there is the same difference between straight sex and using equipment like strapons and dildos for lesbian sex.
And if you want it that detailed, you'd need a lot more skills, not just for gender differenciation.

I think it requires certain experience, and the same could be said about group.
Please phrase a question starting with "How well can the character ..." related to the BDSM skill.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 26, 2014, 04:04:24 PM
I'd prefer same skills for gay and straight modified by traits.

bdsm should be a skill if we are to have it in the game.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 26, 2014, 04:31:17 PM
"How well can the character

submit or exsersize restraint, simulate pleasure or pain or inflict just the right amounts of them depending on being on the receiving or dominating 'end'?

I can ask someone with a better command of English language than I to describe bdsm skill if your're having trouble with it. To me it seems like a broad and comlex practice that does require a lot of skill and practice to be done properly. Possibly more than any of the sex skills we have in the game.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 27, 2014, 05:57:46 AM
And if you want it that detailed, you'd need a lot more skills, not just for gender differenciation.
Fair enough.

I don't know about group though. I guess it could require some practice, but then again, we don't have a skill for singing and dancing at the same time if we already have singing and dancing skills.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: livingforever on November 27, 2014, 10:39:11 AM
submit or exsersize restraint, simulate pleasure or pain or inflict just the right amounts of them depending on being on the receiving or dominating 'end'?
Valid.
Seems to me like a combination of dominating and acting, but unifying the two seems fine (unless they're needed somewhere else).

I don't know about group though. I guess it could require some practice, but then again, we don't have a skill for singing and dancing at the same time if we already have singing and dancing skills.
Partying hard!
Seriously though, I think it's the same thing here, a combination of a sex skill and multitasking. Does it need to be an own skill? I don't know.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 27, 2014, 01:00:25 PM
Seriously though, I think it's the same thing here

Yeap, it is.

a combination of a sex skill and multitasking. Does it need to be an own skill? I don't know.

And it's also (interesting enough) a matter of tagging concept (that CW and Dark are mainly responsible for) that doesn't really require a new tagger to be written and discussed :)
===============================================================

Some things should be noted here:

1) Both I and Thewlis are writing code that can be expended almost effortlessly to include more options or more complex logic (which is good).

2) We can expand any of the modules in the game to almost obscene and unnecessary amount of complexity (in all cases in PyTFall a mistake).

- I think it (group) should be a skill in it's own right. If we make it a skill (and possibly) in it's final form to be a combination of group skill + individual sex skills (or even none sex skills) + traits + stats is a matter of deciding how we're planning to tag the group images. Same counts for bdsm. I'd prefer a simpler, faster tagging (consequentially also coding/development) at least for the foreseeable future, we can expand the tagging process or even create different tagging versions in distant future... In my opinion, we have some much planned (alchemy, crafting, ST, Exploration, more complex BE, events, quests, gangs, quarters and etc.) that enabling complex tagging for groups and bdsm is not a good idea at the moment.

So (IMHO):

BDSM Pics: Girls is tagged as being on the bondage/submissive end.
Group: Girl is being taken by a specified amount of males/females, regardless of how (position/way is not specified).
Group/BDSM is a combination of both.

If we ever get the chance or man power to do more that this, I'll support it but (and usually nothing before "but" is worth reading/hearing) how/why this is in greater demand that better ST options or a more comprehensive BE or a pseudo 3D dungeon/RPG exploration or an awesome 3D brothel building module or some really decent quests (I DO actually have a lot of ideas, based on literature, not some crap) or better Arena with quests/tasks... I can't tell. And all of these things are well within our grasp, both in code and concept (inclusion within the game/concept/code) unless we do something stupid like decide to make the most complicated and unnecessary stats system ever or a tagging system describing every angle one could look at an image :D *It's all about finding a perfect balance in the end...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 27, 2014, 03:50:25 PM
It's just that with no maximums at all, it's hard to tell what those skill numbers actually mean in reality, etc. at what value is the girl should be considered strong (intelligent, a good cocksucker...) in relation to the game world (is it at 50, 100, 500?).

**I don't think I've answered this clear enough.

Without mods by traits/stats (which will prolly simply reinforce base skill value and push them lower if relevant stats aren't "on the level" or there are counter traits and only work in good favor in case of good corresponding traits *Should be noted that I currently have no idea on how to achieve that, it's just a though that should be doable with a bit of work), we have (for a 10 year max gameplay):

1 points of skills (often spread over multiple skills) per AP. No mod/trait or anything at all should be able to push it over 1.5 per AP.

So: If we decide that an insanely long gameplay should be 3650 days (10 years), great skill should be:

3650 * 4/5 = 2960 (get rid of rest/vacation/event days)
2920 * 5 = 14600 (lets say that a character can spend on average 5 AP per day)
14600 / 3 = 4867 Training sessions
+
9733 Practice (Action) sessions

Under the best possible gameplay. This should be counted close to godlike skill... however the game play to achieve this at any skill is too long. There is also a matter of events/content which should be exhausted long before that.

Basically, this can be narrowed down and is not a complete guesswork, we just need to figure out how many ingame days we expect an average gameplay to be...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 28, 2014, 03:08:33 AM
Ok, then we need a tagging software before I begin retagging. Problem solved  :)

Tags for bdsm... Apart form bondage/submissive end, we could use one tag for pics with tied/bound/helpless in any other way characters (sometimes they are not) and one tag for bringing pain (apart from just tying and/or having sex).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 28, 2014, 03:50:01 PM
Tags for bdsm... Apart form bondage/submissive end, we could use one tag for pics with tied/bound/helpless in any other way characters (sometimes they are not) and one tag for bringing pain (apart from just tying and/or having sex).

There is also a question of how we wish to use bdsm pics in ST... tag them with specific actions or not.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 29, 2014, 02:36:24 AM
I don't think so. As a packs maker, I can tell that BDSM is the most varied and inconstant category. It includes many different actions, yet you never can tell which actions exactly will be available.
At best we could hope to describe bdsm pics in general.
Like:
- just tied;
- not tied or something, but clearly submissive;
- torturing (= bringing pain);
- (optional) forced orgasm;
- rape.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 30, 2014, 06:55:39 AM
I don't think so. As a packs maker, I can tell that BDSM is the most varied and inconstant category. It includes many different actions, yet you never can tell which actions exactly will be available.
At best we could hope to describe bdsm pics in general.
Like:
- just tied;
- not tied or something, but clearly submissive;
- torturing (= bringing pain);
- (optional) forced orgasm;
- rape.

You need to convert this to tags (tagnames/system). Are there too few pics which a whip or something like that? Can you take a look at Valet, (and especially) SM3 and OW? What tags do they use there?

Looks like Thewlis is busy as well. I did a bit of coding, making sure Blue can train captured girls (+Other options for captured girls and different calculations for the SE girls), it's 60% done I think. I want a "darker" option as well, but that will make more sense when we'll have some form of alignment stat for MC (this option will involve Stan).
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on November 30, 2014, 08:56:10 AM
You can say that JoNT doesn't have unique girls. Almost all are random ones.
I'll take a look at SM and Otherworld.

So far I can guarantee that every pack has at least a picture with tied character. Whip pictures are common too, but not everyone has them.
I guess we could try faceless pictures...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on November 30, 2014, 09:13:15 AM
You can say that JoNT doesn't have unique girls. Almost all are random ones.
I'll take a look at SM and Otherworld.

So far I can guarantee that every pack has at least a picture with tied character. Whip pictures are common too, but not everyone has them.
I guess we could try faceless pictures...

Maybe a clearly angry/scared or/and tied up picture. We can simulate the whip with sound and shake effects.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 01, 2014, 01:41:27 AM
SM3 doesn't specialize on actual training, since you kinda persuade girls to be good slaves there. They basically have 1 picture per category, and characters that cannot afford it cannot be "main" slaves. There are a lot of skills, and every one requires a unique picture.
All daytime actions are already covered by our tags. Night action that we don't have is Kiss (pretty much with random character, even though text says it's you).

They have bondage (tied characters), spanking (sometimes with a whip, depending on available pictures).
Also things like Anal Plug and Naked. Plug is quite rare in general, and naked tag we already have.
=================================================================================
Otherworld has rape category, when a girl is uncertain, scared, angry, etc. during sex. Lockdown, when you are supposed to lock her, it's usually bondage without sex. Also general anal toy category, without specifying which one.
It's been awhile since I played it, I'm gonna try and see if it gives me some new ideas.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 01, 2014, 12:07:13 PM
...I guess this is it. We can't rely on other games since we have more categories already. I'm going to create a new tagging system, I have enough ideas already.

As a side note, Otherworld looks so old and clunky. It was ok several years ago, but it hasn't changed since then.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on December 02, 2014, 08:15:19 AM
We can't rely on other games since we have more categories already.

Every time that we did, it didn't pay off so you're right, we shouldn't. I asked you to look into them because we could take a look a what pics in slave training categories are available for a lot of characters.

I'm going to create a new tagging system, I have enough ideas already.

Kewl.

As a side note, Otherworld looks so old and clunky. It was ok several years ago, but it hasn't changed since then.

When the first version of OW came out, I thought it was going to be the best game in the genre but some poor decisions (imo) were made as the game was developed...
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 02, 2014, 12:33:33 PM
It still has the best assistants in the genre. Of course they require a lot of writing.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on December 02, 2014, 01:10:34 PM
It still has the best assistants in the genre. Of course they require a lot of writing.

Really? I thought those game could have gone without... ratio of development hours vs payback in terms of gameplay is poor.

I loved the world, battles (even simpler than we have but grinding was fun none the less), moving around the town concept and training (felt less linear than SM3). Dolls were sort of fun as well but game could do without, it slowed down character development at the very least.

It's just that insane management interface remake that took like an year to build, more + complex stats + more + complex skill * more + more and even more complex stats/skills... and no new content/modules.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 02, 2014, 02:56:39 PM
Assistants feel so generic in SM3, it's almost like they don't exist. Bonuses are tiny, and you can't even talk to them.
They are better in JoNT, because they actually can do a lot of useful things instead of MC and slaves, and you can interact with them in many ways. Even though they don't have unique preferences and dialogues, like in Otherworld, it's still better than nothing.

Auction is pretty fun, even though its algorithm is easy to bypass. It's something our slave market could use as well.
And dolls, well, they cannot look better than h-pictures. At least without pro artists.
Title: Re: Stats Concept
Post by: Xela on December 02, 2014, 03:13:21 PM
It's something our slave market could use as well.

Should be separate from the normal shopping routines.

We've also not finalized slave pricing:

For now I am working off:

1500 Flat Fee for any untrained slave.
Price method for trained once.

But it's just so I can write code in little time that I have without having to wait on discussion for this to finish, if you have ideas, lets hear them.

**Training by Blue for a flat fee of 2000 Gold and without conditions is coded in. Girl will be delivered in 30 Days.
**Auto-Selloff is ready as well, but the button to turn it on is not.
**Sell Off logic for captured girls s also ready, will trigger in 20 days automatically (assuming you don't care for the girl and they need to make space).
**Sending to ST Dungeon logic is ready (written by Thewlis some time ago).

Every captured girl requires 200 gold registration fees and 30 Gold for every day she's kept in jail.

Still to do: Buttons Everywhere (10% done), Stan logic (maybe), test the system.

**Oh, game will write these events to the report on the main screen, not the ND report, felt like it should be there with the Arena info. That's also taken care of.