Pink Petal Games

PyTFall => PyTFall: Game design => Topic started by: Xela on June 15, 2013, 04:47:47 AM

Title: <-- Archived --> **Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 15, 2013, 04:47:47 AM
Traits Concept Design:

Traits will be created in XML.


Trait might fail without this field:

ID: Name of the Trait.
- Game is likely to crash if not specified.
- xml field:
Code: [Select]
id="Big Boobs"

Optional Fields:

Description:
- Defaults to an empty string.
- xml field:
Code: [Select]
desc="This girl really has knockers."
Temp: Trait has only temporary effect.
- Defaults to 0. (Effect is permanent)
- xml field:
Code: [Select]
temp='0'
Modifies stat values (current, max, min):
- Defaults to an empty list
- xml field:
Code: [Select]
<mod charisma = '10' />
      <max charisma = '10' />
      <min charisma = '10' />

Block: Blocks other traits while active.
- Defaults to an empty list.
- xml field:
Code: [Select]
<blocks name = 'Small Boobs' />
Effect: Does not currently do anything.
- Defaults to an empty list.
-


Notes:

- Traits are supposed to be more permanent than items so in this scenario:

Girl has 80 charisma current and 100 charisma max.

Case 1:
- Girls acquires a trait that raises her charisma by 20 points (Maxed out).
- Girl works hard on improving her looks and gains 10 more points (Still at 100 because of Max stat).
- Girl looses the trait, her charisma falls back to 80 points.
 
Case 2:
- Girl equips an item that raises her charisma by 20 points (Maxed out).
- Girl works hard on improving her looks and gains 10 more points (Still at 100 because of Max stat).
- Girls takes the item of, her charisma is now 90 points.

This is done by design in order to prevent chaos of traits being awarded/removed by every item and event and getting girls with a few dozen traits each (Block is another precaution)

- There is a trait related field in girl's XML called Absolute Block, that ensures that a number of traits can NEVER be awarded to a girl. There is no way to influence that through traits or items and the only way to clear that list is command in game's console or python script.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 15, 2013, 05:19:36 AM
- Reserved -
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 20, 2013, 11:41:41 AM
I thought about Quick and Slow Learner traits from WM. If I remember correctly, they affect the amount of experience girl receives per each exp rewarding event. It's impossible to create them within the framework of existing traits system anyway, so maybe we could use effects for it eventually.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 20, 2013, 12:06:54 PM
I thought about Quick and Slow Learner traits from WM. If I remember correctly, they affect the amount of experience girl receives per each exp rewarding event. It's impossible to create them within the framework of existing traits system anyway, so maybe we could use effects for it eventually.

More traits... I was about to complain that we have to many already :)

By the way, Quick Learner is one of the most unbalanced traits in WM, if experience is going to be really meaningful in the game (already is to the point in Prostitute Rank system, we can prolly do without it. Otherwise it will trigger an effect...

Maybe I should code in leveling or effects tonight, was planning to put in a couple of hours, Roman is doing some work on Alkion as well. I've already fixed Inventory bug where a second empty page appeared in both games if the previous page (Inventory or Shop) is full.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 20, 2013, 12:35:04 PM
Actually, it's not enough traits and stats for items  :D
I'm even starting to think we should give up on head slot, at least until we'll have BE with spells and resistances. Moreover, some capes and armors have hoods, so maybe a separate head slot is overkill in general.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 20, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
Actually, it's not enough traits and stats for items  :D
I'm even starting to think we should give up on head slot, at least until we'll have BE with spells and resistances. Moreover, some capes and armors have hoods, so maybe a separate head slot is overkill in general.

Your call, I am fine with not having a headslot.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 20, 2013, 12:55:27 PM
Then please remove it from the game. If players will want them badly, we always can release a dlc with head items when the game will be ready  :)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 20, 2013, 12:57:23 PM
Then please remove it from the game. If players will want them badly, we always can release a dlc with head items when the game will be ready  :)

Oki, I'll do that in an hour.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 20, 2013, 01:46:10 PM
As for Learner traits, I have no idea what percentage they have in WM, but I'm pretty sure +5% and -5% won't hurt the game balance.
Besides, these effects might as well be part of Genius and Retarded traits respectively. And Genius trait is hard to get (at least via items).
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 23, 2013, 05:44:30 AM
So, currently traits are used to represent any of the following in the game:

Magic talent -> an ability the character was born with and could not learn

Virgin -> an attribute the character was born with and could not learn

Long hair -> an attribute the character aquired without effort

Big boobs -> an attribute the character was either born with or aquired through surgery (if the techlevel/availability of magic in pytfall allows that)

Scars -> an attribute the character aquired after birth

Courtly demeanor -> an ability the character learned through training

Fighter -> a profession  the character learned through training

Lesbian -> a sexual orientation

Caught a Cold -> a disease temporarily affecting the character



I think it would be easier to talk about game concepts if traits were not used to describe almost everything.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 23, 2013, 06:12:48 AM
Magic talent -> an ability the character was born with and could not learn
Not true, there is a very rare item that could give this trait.

Virgin -> an attribute the character was born with and could not learn
Yup, that's very temporary thing in this game, so could be a feat or even effect  :D

Long hair -> an attribute the character aquired without effort
We have various pics and don't have an artist, so things like hair length or color are out of question.

Big boobs -> an attribute the character was either born with or aquired through surgery (if the techlevel/availability of magic in pytfall allows that)
Nope, no surgery. This is a permanent trait.

Scars -> an attribute the character aquired after birth
Yup. You could turn them into feats or effects if you want to, it doesn't matter.

Fighter -> a profession  the character learned through training
Nope. Profession is occupation. This trait describes physical and mental training character has in the past.

I think it would be easier to talk about game concepts if traits were not used to describe almost everything.
If you want to suggest another trait concept, be my guest.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 23, 2013, 06:31:16 AM
We have various pics and don't have an artist, so things like hair length or color are out of question.

Yeah...but still, nothing short of an army of artists would work on what we're planning anyway :)

Yup. You could turn them into feats or effects if you want to, it doesn't matter.

Maybe effect, feat is not likely to work here...

Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 23, 2013, 07:38:32 AM
Not true, there is a very rare item that could give this trait.
Alright. My intention was to say that there will be abilities or attributes a character could be born with, but could never learn.

Yup, [virginity]'s very temporary thing in this game, so could be a feat or even effect  :D
I don't know if it could be an effect, but it can't be a feat. Feats can be learned. You can't learn to be a virgin. (yeah, restoration magic, magic items and artifacts, divine intervention, ... you know the drill).

We have various pics and don't have an artist, so things like hair length or color are out of question.
Long hair is one of the traits currently in the game. Is that an oversight or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

Nope. Profession is occupation. This trait describes physical and mental training character has in the past.
Maybe we could rename those traits? "Fighter" or "Assassin" sound like occupations to me. How about "Combat training" and "Former assassin"?

If you want to suggest another trait concept, be my guest.
I suggest we give traits a more specific meaning. Let's see which categories of properties our characters currently have:

Stats
Character attributes describing the physical, mental(?) and social prowess of the character in areas that need detailed modeling.

Skills
Abilities that can be learned and that need detailed modeling by the game.

Traits
* Abilities that can be learned and that do not need detailed modeling by the game.
* Attributes that can be gained without significant effort
* Attributes that can be gained, but require effort
* Abilities or attributes the character was born with and could not learn
* Sexual orientations
* Temporary effects


Since we implement traits in XML, it is difficult to let them do more than modify character stats. We should keep that in mind.
Xela already said that temporary effects will not be modeled as traits. Learnable abilities are feats or skills. Abilities or attributes the character was born with, for example being an alien, should do more than modify stats. Those are hard to describe in XML, so they should not be traits. I propose we call them advantages.

Stats
Character attributes describing the physical, mental(?) and social prowess of the character in areas that need detailed modeling.

Skills
Abilities that can be learned and that need detailed modeling by the game.

Feats [proposed]
Abilities that can be learned and that do not need detailed modeling by the game. Many current traits are in this category.

Advantages [proposed]
* Abilities or attributes the character was born with and could not learn
* Sexual orientations

Traits
* Attributes that can be gained without significant effort
* Attributes that can be gained, but require effort

Effects [WIP?]
Temporary effects


So, based on this proposal traits would be character attributes that can be gained or lost and that can be modeled by modifying character stats or skills.

Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 23, 2013, 08:03:14 AM
Long hair is one of the traits currently in the game. Is that an oversight or do I misunderstand what you are saying?
I never created such trait, and the actual version of traits.xml in dropbox doesn't have it, you can be assured. We do have Long Legs though, but it's obviously even harder to get than big boobs.

Maybe we could rename those traits? "Fighter" or "Assassin" sound like occupations to me. How about "Combat training" and "Former assassin"?
Ok.

Advantages [proposed]
* Abilities or attributes the character was born with and could not learn
* Sexual orientations
I'm pretty sure vanilla WM has at least one item that change orientation, and if I remember correctly, Pytfall has 2 such items now  :)
But now I understand what exactly you mean.

However, I'm not sure about this part:
Abilities or attributes the character was born with, for example being an alien, should do more than modify stats.
What they actually could do except for various events and effects that could be coded even now without using additional Advantages category, since traits can trigger events and give effects (not necessarily temporary)? Or this is about traits sorting?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: CherryWood on June 23, 2013, 08:30:48 AM
I suggest we give traits a more specific meaning. Let's see which categories of properties our characters currently have:
Stats
Character attributes describing the physical, mental(?) and social prowess of the character in areas that need detailed modeling.
Skills

Abilities that can be learned and that need detailed modeling by the game.
We have skills? I mean, I know that we called some of the stats a skill, but is there a difference now?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 23, 2013, 08:38:47 AM
I never created such trait, and the actual version of traits.xml in dropbox doesn't have it, you can be assured.
I'm pretty sure I saw it in traits.xml in the most recent revision of our master branch. It was called "Long Hair".

I'm pretty sure vanilla WM has at least one item that change orientation, and if I remember correctly, Pytfall has 2 such items now  :)
I see. Yeah, in a game like this it surely is more fun to let orientation be a dynamic thing. We can just keep them as traits.

However, I'm not sure about this part:What they actually could do except for various events and effects that could be coded even now without using additional Advantages category, since traits can trigger events and give effects (not necessarily temporary)? Or this is about traits sorting?
No, it's not about traits sorting. I'm mostly trying to establish defined concepts that make communicating and planning easier and make code and documentation easier to read and understand as well.
You definitely raise an important question here and I've been thinking about this myself. I'm not sure yet what could be done that traits currently can't do. I definitely don't like permant effects. If it's here to stay, it's IMHO not an effect. Using permanent effects to let traits do stuff that can not be implemented in XML might lead to really complicated traits. I don't think that's a good idea. If it can't be done in XML, it might not be a good idea to model it as trait. Could you provide examples of traits that use "permanent effects"?

Update: AFAIK, we currently have girls ingame that are androids or robots and I also saw a trait for aliens. If we want to model things like these, I don't think we should do it with traits. Robots should not have a health attribute. They should not heal by resting or medical treatment. They should be immune to diseases and fear. They might not even get tired. They should not benefit from nice flowers or good food. They should, however, require huge amounts of upkeep.


@CW
No, implementation-wise stats and skills are currently identical. All skills are stats, but not all stats are skills.  Attribute-like stats (health, fatigue, ...) and skill-like stats (dancing, fucking, ...) have probably more in common with each other than with other stats concerning skill caps and other implementation details, but in the broad picture their implementation is identical. My effort here is about building concepts that have a clear definition, so we can communicate effectively.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 23, 2013, 08:50:41 AM
@CW
No, implementation-wise stats and skills are currently identical. All skills are stats, but not all stats are skills.  Attribute-like stats (health, fatigue, ...) and skill-like stats (dancing, fucking, ...) have probably more in common with each other than with other stats concerning skill caps and other implementation details, but in the broad picture their implementation is identical. My effort here is about building concepts that have a clear definition, so we can communicate effectively.

Just for the record:

Skills in girl.xml (magic and battle) are neither traits, nor feats, nor effects, not stats. They are assets to be passed to battle engine determining attack type of the girl (damage modifier and sound as well as name of the attack (currently not displayed but it is possible to enable that in BE)) and magic attack (Animation, sound, damage modifier, nature element modifier (not currently enabled either)).
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 23, 2013, 08:54:45 AM
I'm pretty sure I saw it in traits.xml in the most recent revision of our master branch. It was called "Long Hair".
Great. Now we even have shady traits makers. Well, not many people have access to your branch (I personally don't, and don't want to, since I'm ok with dropbox), so it's up to you guys to fix your mess  :D

Could you provide examples of traits that use "permanent effects"?
More exp for Genius and less exp for Retarded when they get exp.
Small mp recovery for Magic Talent.
+Libido per hit during battles for Masochist.

There is no meaning for traits to have effects in the first place if they could not be permanent.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 23, 2013, 09:04:46 AM
Great. Now we even have shady traits makers. Well, not many people have access to your branch (I personally don't, and don't want to, since I'm ok with dropbox), so it's up to you guys to fix your mess  :D

There has never been Long Hair trait in any version of traits file on any repository, at least I've never seen one.

You should get Git, it's bloody useful and you can get constant code upgrades for the game. DB folder gets old and redundant at this point (for updating the game, not exchanging files).
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 23, 2013, 09:27:34 AM
You should get Git, it's bloody useful and you can get constant code upgrades for the game
When I'll need those upgrades, I'll get it for sure. Right now I'm 100% busy with items, packs and concepts, so it's useless to me.

we currently have girls ingame that are androids or robots and I also saw a trait for aliens. If we want to model things like these, I don't think we should do it with traits. Robots should not have a health attribute. They should not heal by resting or medical treatment. They should be immune to diseases and fear. They might not even get tired. They should not benefit from nice flowers or good food. They should, however, require huge amounts of upkeep.
Um, I guess. Go ahead and code it, it's up to you coders anyway  ;)
Still could be done via effects as well.

Anyway, we could either use current trait system with effects or create Advantages instead. I still do not see any sense in that, but if it will be easier for coding, why not. It's not like I have to code it by myself  :D
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 23, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Anyway, we could either use current trait system with effects or create Advantages instead. I still do not see any sense in that, but if it will be easier for coding, why not. It's not like I have to code it by myself  :D

I want to finish the core first and figure out the specifics afterwards. Like I've said many times already, I try to code in such way that would allow adding new code and elements to the game with minimum amount of bugs/refactoring.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 23, 2013, 09:57:01 AM
Now we even have shady traits makers.
I checked the history and there has never been a trait called "Long Hair". I must be imagining things.  ???

Well, not many people have access to your branch
Actually, the whole world has access as its on sourceforge.

Here's the link to browse the main repository, where all the code is: http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/pytfall/ci/master/tree/ (http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/pytfall/ci/master/tree/)
Here's the link to the content repository: http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/content/content/ci/master/tree/ (http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/content/content/ci/master/tree/)

Oh, and the master branch ist not really my own, personal branch  ;)
master should contain our most stable code, basically the main, most playable version of the game

There is no meaning for traits to have effects in the first place if they could not be permanent.
That is exactly my point. If something can't be modeled without coding, modeling it as trait might be a bad idea. Defining part of it as trait and part of it as specialized effect distributes the code for the same thing over several places. Moreover, it compromises effects, as all those specialized "logic for advanced trait"-effects should probably be treated differently by the game as regular effects.

Concerning advantages: I think a good solution could be to just keep them as traits for the time being and turn them into something else if they bother us enough.


Still could be done via effects as well.
We could also code this game in C++ but that does not mean its a good idea to do it  ;)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 23, 2013, 10:05:55 AM
Btw, there is an item that removes Artificial Body, both in Wm and Pytfall, with the help of 'magic'.
So it's probably unwise to make Advantages absolutely irremovable. Or we should agree to not create such items.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 23, 2013, 10:08:38 AM
We could also code this game in C++ but that does not mean its a good idea to do it  ;)

*shudders*

Didn't I suggest Assembler at some point  ::)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: CherryWood on June 23, 2013, 02:34:12 PM
The way I see it:


We currently have:
stats +BE skills (girl prowess represented by numbers)
traits (things that describe a girls difference from "normal")


and I personally think these two systems should be enough.
Also:


effects (for temporally stuff like illness)
"skill tree skills/feats/perks whatever name" (non-unique things that every girl can learn)


categories looks good to me for different visuals, but I'm not convinced yet that they should work differently then normal traits/items.


---
I think that robot example is overkill for any kind of trait system. If we want to simulate androids deeply as that, we should implement them in same way as slaves vs free girls.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 24, 2013, 12:00:40 PM
I think that robot example is overkill for any kind of trait system. If we want to simulate androids deeply as that, we should implement them in same way as slaves vs free girls.
Maybe, I do not mind either way. Still, things like immunities to various effects and uselessness of consumables with "food" or "drugs" type (I'm going to use types for consumables eventually) sound nice.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 26, 2013, 04:32:36 PM
Maybe effect, feat is not likely to work here...
Btw, some characters should have scars from the start. If we'll convert scars into effects, we'll need a corresponding mechanism for attaching them in girls xmls, so maybe it's better to leave them as traits.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on June 26, 2013, 04:39:54 PM
Btw, some characters should have scars from the start. If we'll convert scars into effects, we'll need a corresponding mechanism for attaching them in girls xmls, so maybe it's better to leave them as traits.

Scars are a trait in my dead, but I didn't get to deep into yours and Rudi's discussion on the topic.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 28, 2013, 08:27:10 AM
If we'll convert scars into effects
Why should scars be effects?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 28, 2013, 09:24:16 AM
Because small and medium scars are temporary, just like effects.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 28, 2013, 10:45:43 AM
Maybe we mean something different by "scar" or "temporary"? A scar, as I see it, is a patch of skin that grows back after an injury, is visually distinguishable from the skin around it and never disappears again. Scars may fade a little over time, but AFAIK, they do not disappear.


Maybe when you say small scar you mean exudate? [size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exudate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exudate)[/size]

Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on June 28, 2013, 10:58:04 AM
I mean something between a scar and a scratch. Actually, I guess we could use scars as permanent traits and scratches as effects.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: rudistoned on June 28, 2013, 11:14:02 AM
Sounds good  :)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 27, 2013, 02:10:40 PM
After I found some info about archetypes, I'm begin to question some aspects of current traits system. After all, the vast majority of characters are from anime of some kind.

(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_233584a8f5b5a5b51db679931f6c20b2.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/233584a8f5b5a5b51db679931f6c20b2.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_3d78a38f14a49e61867498cccdae7934.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/3d78a38f14a49e61867498cccdae7934.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_c486c1e518dd600583895093bcfa48b7.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/c486c1e518dd600583895093bcfa48b7.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_e673946b1bd9b2386b1f25a62d2b8a42.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/e673946b1bd9b2386b1f25a62d2b8a42.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_7d6122f0642e0793ce538f03429e0590.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/7d6122f0642e0793ce538f03429e0590.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_7b4f5aab6dce46b303290a2a88caa550.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/7b4f5aab6dce46b303290a2a88caa550.jpg)
We already have tsundere, yandere, loli, chikyugal (=alien), pasokon (=artificial body), neko (=cat girl).

Theoretically, kuudere=impersonal, dandere=shy, moe=kind, genki=optomist, bokukko=tomboy, dojikko=clumsy, meganekko=nerd, imouto=dependant, sensei=serious.

Traits in question for me are nadeshiko and ane, not necessarily under these names. Ie <polite and reserved> and <caring and parential>.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 27, 2013, 02:15:57 PM
After I found some info about archetypes, I'm begin to question some aspects of current traits system. After all, the vast majority of characters are from anime of some kind.

(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_233584a8f5b5a5b51db679931f6c20b2.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/233584a8f5b5a5b51db679931f6c20b2.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_3d78a38f14a49e61867498cccdae7934.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/3d78a38f14a49e61867498cccdae7934.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_c486c1e518dd600583895093bcfa48b7.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/c486c1e518dd600583895093bcfa48b7.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_e673946b1bd9b2386b1f25a62d2b8a42.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/e673946b1bd9b2386b1f25a62d2b8a42.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_7d6122f0642e0793ce538f03429e0590.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/7d6122f0642e0793ce538f03429e0590.jpg)(http://s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/thumb_7b4f5aab6dce46b303290a2a88caa550.jpg) (http://youpic.su/view.php?id=s001.youpic.su/pictures/1374868800/7b4f5aab6dce46b303290a2a88caa550.jpg)
We already have tsundere, yandere, loli, chikyugal (=alien), pasokon (=artificial body), neko (=cat girl).

Theoretically, kuudere=impersonal, dandere=shy, moe=kind, genki=optomist, bokukko=tomboy, dojikko=clumsy, meganekko=nerd, imouto=dependant, sensei=serious.

Traits in question for me are nadeshiko and ane, not necessarily under these names. Ie <polite and reserved> and <caring and parential>.

Anything else?

LoL I actually like the idea of adding archtypes to the game... tell me if you need me to program something extra to make this work...
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: CherryWood on July 28, 2013, 07:47:49 AM
If you let me to use ripped line from Illusion games, they we will have some overly-polite lines that could fit for nadeshiko or ojou. (and maybe few other types if I put some more time in sorting them) 
But there is one important thing I'm not sure about:
We have stats like character and refinement. And if we use traits for ladylike demeanour and such, what these stats would mean then?
 
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 28, 2013, 08:23:14 AM
If you let me to use ripped line from Illusion games, they we will have some overly-polite lines that could fit for nadeshiko or ojou. (and maybe few other types if I put some more time in sorting them) 

You can use lines from whereever you feel like, but in my opinion is that texts system you guys are going for to create is to complex for the current state of the game. There will be more checks in the future (Like state of employment/income/living conditions of a girl, her social status and so on ). I keep suggesting to make texts the bare minimum of what they can be and work up from there but noone listens.

But there is one important thing I'm not sure about:
We have stats like character and refinement. And if we use traits for ladylike demeanour and such, what these stats would mean then?

It's an imperfect system, I doubt that it is possible to create a general rule unless we decide to build the entire default girl behavior around those arch-types. Just use your better-judgement on per case basis.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 28, 2013, 08:38:24 AM
Now then, Fleet of Foot is now called Hyperactive, Fighter is Combat Training, Assassin is Former Assassin, Maid is Professional Maid to avoid confusion with occupations.
I removed Caught a Cold and Depression traits, instead of s/m/h scars we have Old Scars only, and both they and Cool Scars will be irremovable.

We have stats like character and refinement. And if we use traits for ladylike demeanour and such, what these stats would mean then?
I'm not going to use all these archetypes, and traits will contain only some basic properties of archetypes.
For example, I'm adding now Kuudere ("A person who is cold, blunt and emotionless on the outside, but actually caring and nice on the inside") and Dandere ("A person who is normally quiet and silent, possibly to the point of coming across as emotionless at times, because of extreme social aloofness").
Such archetypes stand out against the ladylike demeanour, that's why they will have traits, probably with effects of some kind.

At the same time Impersonal will remain, since there are Kuudere and Dandere characters with and without emotionless part.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 28, 2013, 09:51:13 AM
I leave out Moe, such characters could be described with Kind and Meek traits. Nadechiko is basically Japanese concept of ideal woman rather than archetype, the only thing we might need from it is <Polite and reserved> part, but it's almost the same as Collected trait.
Genki is otimist+hyperactive.

Ojou, Himedere and Kamidere are spoiled characters with a certain degree of arrogance. Not sure if we need any traits for them. I guess you could just make high enough character stat with low refinement, maybe with Noble trait as well. Maybe I have to change Noble trait a little though to use it for such characters as well, not just for actual nobles.
Bokukko is "female character who resembles an androgynous boy". It is manly+tomboy, I guess.

Dojikko is clumsy. Meganekko is Nerd. Imouto is dependant. Ane is what we need, not only as archetype, but as opposite to dependant. I have no idea how to call it, ideas are welcomed.

Sensei is too indistinct concept to me, it might as well be strict morals or something.
Miko... Do we need chaste characters in the brothel game aside from Kind trait? I guess no.
Aidoru is Famous+Singer/Dancer/whatever. When/if we'll have separate singing/dancing skills, I could create such traits.
Chibi are purely comic characters, and mahou don't have any unique features.

I doubt that it is possible to create a general rule unless we decide to build the entire default girl behavior around those arch-types.
I thought about it, but 1) existing archetypes do not cover the whole variety of characters, and even don't totally mutually exclusive; 2) only ~dere terminology is more or less known among non-Japanese; 3) many archetypes do not have "official", settled name.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: CherryWood on July 28, 2013, 12:11:06 PM
Now then, Fleet of Foot is now called Hyperactive, Fighter is Combat Training, Assassin is Former Assassin, Maid is Professional Maid to avoid confusion with occupations.
I removed Caught a Cold and Depression traits, instead of s/m/h scars we have Old Scars only, and both they and Cool Scars will be irremovable.
(...)
Great, I like this changes and also most of the stuff mentioned after this

---
Ok, I was thinking about it all a bit, and my personal option about stats vs traits and nobility vs snobish is, to use primary traits to determine what girl will do or say and use stats just for calculation. Maybe not logical, but I would prefer it that way.


To say it simpler, I think it would be good to add these missing traits you mentioned, polite and something for these spoiled arrogant ones and Ane.

[size=78%]---[/size]


You can use lines from whereever you feel like, but in my opinion is that texts system you guys are going for to create is to complex for the current state of the game. There will be more checks in the future (Like state of employment/income/living conditions of a girl, her social status and so on ). I keep suggesting to make texts the bare minimum of what they can be and work up from there but noone listens.


Just as we finish this archetype discussion (already helped me a lot) I'll write my girlmeet concept idea (I expect in-brothel interactions to be more complex so I leave them second) with forks for all good lines I have, so you can better see if it's a good idea or not. I already spend about 60 hours on it so I just don't want to throw it away without a try.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 28, 2013, 12:54:04 PM
To say it simpler, I think it would be good to add these missing traits you mentioned, polite and something for these spoiled arrogant ones and Ane.
Maybe self-centered will be a good name for arrogant ones. As for Ane, I'd like to use another name since this word is little-known, but "Parental" or "Independent" sound even more strange.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 28, 2013, 01:47:33 PM
Just as we finish this archetype discussion (already helped me a lot) I'll write my girlmeet concept idea (I expect in-brothel interactions to be more complex so I leave them second) with forks for all good lines I have, so you can better see if it's a good idea or not. I already spend about 60 hours on it so I just don't want to throw it away without a try.

Lets try to waste as little as possible. Also 60 hours  ??? ,well done!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 08:23:17 AM
I wonder if Athletic and Strong, or in case of androids Artificial Body and Strong are the same thing, since Fragile is almost synonym to weak. So maybe I should remove Strong.

On the other hand, theoretically I could imagine a character with very weak body in terms of endurance which possesses great physical strength. But if we are going to consider endurance and strength separately, we need Weak trait as well for the reverse situation.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 29, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
Any suggestions?

Not really :(

To tell you the truth, I am starting to think that from game designer/programming point of view, traits in itself are not a very good concept. But since we're using them, leaving all of those is prolly a better bet.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 09:32:15 AM
I am starting to think that from game designer/programming point of view, traits in itself are not a very good concept.
The only alternative is increasing the number of primary stats, like adding strength stat instead of Strong/Weak, speed instead of Hyperactive/Dawdler, etc. Maybe adding such stats from SM3 as Sensibility, Ethics, Temperament and so on. This way traits only will be used as flags for properties that can not be passed through stats only, like Artificial Body or Virgin.

It will be somewhat harder to call events depending on stats range rather than traits, but we'll have much less traits, and they will be much better organized.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 29, 2013, 09:53:15 AM
The only alternative is increasing the number of primary stats, like adding strength stat instead of Strong/Weak, speed instead of Hyperactive/Dawdler, etc. Maybe adding such stats from SM3 as Sensibility, Ethics, Temperament and so on. This way traits only will be used as flags for properties that can not be passed through stats only, like Artificial Body or Virgin.

It will be somewhat harder to call events depending on stats range rather than traits, but we'll have much less traits, and they will be much better organized.

Yeap, that would be one way. Another options would be to use archtypes and "talents", but like I've said, we've started with traits so we just as well might stick to the design.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 10:35:03 AM
Hmm, we have direct modification of stats for minor things that cannot be expressed via traits. If you make Fragile/Strong character, give her Fragile and some bonuses to attack/constitution/max fatigue/whatever. If you make Tough/Weak character, give her Tough and penalties to attack/constitution/max fatigue/whatever.

I'm removing Strong, it would be better to add a separate strength stat in the future if we'll desperately need it, or use (attack+constitution)/2 or something similar as a method of calculating strength as a secondary stat.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 10:57:00 AM
Another thing that I want to clarify is magic. In the future characters without at least one of magic traits won't be able to use absolute majority of spells.
 
We have three "levels" of it: 1) Magic Gift, 2) Magic Talent and 3) Magic Gift+Magic Talent at the same time (they are not mutually exclusive on purpose).
Most of the times you don't even need to specify magic and mp stats directly, since we have three quite different levels of magic power.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 29, 2013, 11:25:00 AM
Another thing that I want to clarify is magic. In the future characters without at least one of magic traits won't be able to use absolute majority of spells.
 
We have three "levels" of it: 1) Magic Gift, 2) Magic Talent and 3) Magic Gift+Magic Talent at the same time (they are not mutually exclusive on purpose).
Most of the times you don't even need to specify magic and mp stats directly, since we have three quite different levels of magic power.

Make notes!

We don't really have any spells outside of BE yet :(

On the happier note, I am almost finished with hero profile screen! Going to add general sex stat now (charisma is already in) and I seem to have fixed all items logic but still got to add three ring slots.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 11:39:13 AM
Actually, I would prefer that the characters without magic traits won't be able to learn/use most of spells within BE too, unless otherwise stated in xml/json.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 29, 2013, 12:08:29 PM
Actually, I would prefer that the characters without magic traits won't be able to learn/use most of spells within BE too, unless otherwise stated in xml/json.

Notes again...

Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 12:21:51 PM
My posts are my notes  ;)

I'm thinking about removing Cute trait. Cuteness is rather subjective concept, some character may or may not be cute to different people. We don't use traits like Beautiful or Pretty after all, they all are  beautiful and pretty in a varying degree for various people.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: CherryWood on July 29, 2013, 01:03:02 PM
[size=78%]I'm thinking about removing Cute trait. Cuteness is rather subjective concept, some character may or may not be cute to different people. We don't use traits like Beautiful or Pretty after all, they all are  beautiful and pretty in a varying degree for various people.[/size]


I agree with that. Maybe you could also remove that cute part from nerd trait description too. (same reason)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 29, 2013, 02:03:26 PM
Alright, cute removed as a trait and as a part of Nerd both.
Fast and Slow Orgasms removed too, since we have more general Sensitive and Frigid for such things.

We have now Well-mannered and Egocentric mutually exclusive traits (it's hard to imagine self-centered, arrogant and bossy character that is also polite and respectful to everyone, while Tsundere and Yandere still could be polite enough), and Mature (aka Ane) which is opposite to Dependant.
I also fixed several missing or excess blocks on traits.

I'm not sure if we need Loner trait now, since we have Kuudere, Dandere, Shy and Impersonal. Maybe I should remove it as well?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 30, 2013, 12:23:11 PM
Let's see, Loner is a person who avoids the company of others and/or prefers to be alone.

Theoretically, a character doesn't have to be Kuudere, Dandere, Shy or Impersonal to be Loner. I'd say that the Loner doesn't need communication with other people as much as others, but it doesn't mean that s/he is shy or introvert.

However, 1) we don't have stat responsible solely for communication; 2) if we going to consider communication part separately, we need an opposite trait as well, and we already have one: Charismatic, with Shy as opposite. We have 84 traits already (yay!  :) ), I'd prefer to add only well-established ones.
And 3) it could be implemented good enough via effects, but I have no idea how. We don't have social needs like in Sims games, so I don't see any good options.

If there won't be any objections, I will remove it within a day.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 30, 2013, 12:29:35 PM
Let's see, Loner is a person who avoids the company of others and/or prefers to be alone.

Theoretically, a character doesn't have to be Kuudere, Dandere, Shy or Impersonal to be Loner. I'd say that the Loner doesn't need communication with other people as much as others, but it doesn't mean that s/he is shy or introvert.

However, 1) we don't have stat responsible solely for communication; 2) if we going to consider communication part separately, we need an opposite trait as well, and we already have one: Charismatic, with Shy as opposite. We have 84 traits already (yay!  :) ), I'd prefer to add only well-established ones.
And 3) it could be implemented good enough via effects, but I have no idea how. We don't have social needs like in Sims games, so I don't see any good options.

If there won't be any objections, I will remove it within a day.

I am not opposed to having less traits... it'll be a pain to work with the once we have already :)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on July 31, 2013, 10:50:41 AM
Loner removed.
I consider current traits.xml as final version at least up to 1.0, except for stats balance.
Since we got some new traits and lost some old ones, and some old traits have new names, I'm afraid we have to review all checks for traits during jobs.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on July 31, 2013, 11:42:05 AM
Loner removed.
I consider current traits.xml as final version at least up to 1.0, except for stats balance.
Since we got some new traits and lost some old ones, and some old traits have new names, I'm afraid we have to review all checks for traits during jobs.

Yeap, I think we have a version reserved for that...
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on August 01, 2013, 07:19:40 AM
Now then, effects.

We have Unstable for Mind Fucked, Optimist, Pessimist, Kleptomaniac, Nymphomaniac and Frigid for corresponding traits, Fast Learner and Slow Learner for Genius and Retarded.

Composure should be a part of Serious trait rather than Collected. I believe Collected means only control over emotions, not their balance.

Introvert should be a part of Nerd and Dandere.

Extrovert should be a part of Charismatic and maybe Yandere (they are crazy, but they are on MC side after all).
-----------------------
Sensitive ("This girl's body is very delicate and responsive to stimulation") probably should be more sensitive to any items and events that change libido (both increase and decrease).

Psychic is basically telepath or empath. I guess any events that change disposition should be more efficient.

Impersonal should be less dependent on emotions. Maybe all positive checks for joy should be always successful, but in return high joy won't mean anything for such characters?

Dependant/Mature probably should affect autobuy/autoequip/autorest/autowhatever algorithms mostly. Mature should be more independent from player's micromanagement and vice versa.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 07:29:06 AM
I have. But it was like half a year ago.

Guess we need depression for joy<10 and on a roll or something for joy>90. We already have discussed that, but I don't remember if there was any conclusion.

Sensitive ("This girl's body is very delicate and responsive to stimulation") should be more sensitive to any items and events that change libido (both increase and decrease).

Impersonal should be less dependent on emotions. Emotions are both joy and disposition in our case. Not sure how to handle this one, perhaps items and events that change these stats should be twice less effective, or maybe there will be lesser bonuses and penalties for both low and high values of these stats, unlike girls without this trait.

Food and drinks (maybe drugs in the future) should have half of effect on artificial body girls. Since there are cyborgs and stuff, we cannot disable it completely, but 100% effect is weird too.
Also, in WM AB-girls are difficult to damage, they recovered longer than usual ones, iirc healing items are less effective too.

I guess that's all. Other effects will require a new BE or autoequpment system.

I'll take a look at depression when I get a chance.

Sensetive... -/+5% to any libido change?

Impersonal: Might not be the best idea to mess with max/min of disposition stat. I imagine it will be used quite a bit and might cause issues. We need to check the "twice less effective bit as well", stuff like that may break the game.

We've discussed the artificial body thing as well. We will only mess with that post Beta release.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 10, 2014, 10:10:04 AM
Sensetive... -/+5% to any libido change?
That probably will be too insignificant. 10% maybe?

Impersonal: Might not be the best idea to mess with max/min of disposition stat. I imagine it will be used quite a bit and might cause issues. We need to check the "twice less effective bit as well", stuff like that may break the game.
Then there isn't much that we can do in terms of effects for Impersonal, until we'll have relationships between girls. Although, penalty to any disposion/joy change could be useful here. Like, it's hard to gain disposition, but it's hard to lose it too, sounds balanced enough.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on January 10, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
That probably will be too insignificant. 10% maybe?

Maybe... Actually, neither will have an impact right now since stats are being tracked as integers and non items increases are to small of value to be effected. I want to finish with basic tags, finish some loose ends and start turning PyTFall into a game for the Alpha leaving most of these decisions (like int/float for the stats) for later.

We already have more code and content than many of the similar game on their Alpha releases...
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on January 17, 2014, 03:08:03 PM
I have. But it was like half a year ago.

We haven't tested all effects btw. Introvert and Extrovert were both coded in with errors.

I've fixed that and added Impersonal and Sensitive (joy/disposition - 30% and libido + 20%). All needs testing. Going to take a look at finance logging now, I recall that being coded poorly so I might redo the whole thing.

PS: At my revision of traits.xml, not a single trait applies any effects??? Is my version outdated or you haven't gotten around to it yet?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on January 19, 2014, 01:07:36 PM
PS: At my revision of traits.xml, not a single trait applies any effects??? Is my version outdated or you haven't gotten around to it yet?
Many of effects have been applies, but not all of them, since we have some new ones. As always, you can find the newest traits xml in my db.

I have my hands full with rl, even had to work during all holidays, so have no time for testing for now. Hopefully, I'll be free again closer to the end of the week.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on January 19, 2014, 01:17:07 PM
I have my hands full with rl

Yeah.. I know what that's like. Although I was able to put in good 20 hours into the project this week (finally).
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: BlackWolf Inc. on January 31, 2014, 03:06:41 PM
Just had a look through the list of traits, looks like most things are covered.
===
BTW do you want me to go through the file and check grammar and stuff?
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on January 31, 2014, 03:12:02 PM
Just had a look through the list of traits, looks like most things are covered.
===
BTW do you want me to go through the file and check grammar and stuff?

If you find any mistakes, fix them but read a guide on how to push first (or you can just send fixed file to me). We have a DB folder to trade files and you should get an account on sourceforge to be able to push.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: BlackWolf Inc. on January 31, 2014, 03:17:34 PM
Okay i'll get right on that then while i'm waiting for stuff to DL
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on March 02, 2014, 05:12:39 AM
Before I forget:

We should remove/redefine traits that raise disposition at face value. They're doing weird stuff to girlmeets that I cannot easily fix with code. Instead these traits should either raise disposition faster or do something else.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on March 02, 2014, 06:41:41 AM
Then disposition fields in traits xml are useless, just disable them completely.

We have Mind Fucked, Kind, Dependant and Broken Will with small disposition bonuses. We already have a good effect for Mind Fucked, and Kind seems a bit out pf place here.
Broken Will probably should be less dependent on disposition rather than raise it faster, I'll think about it. As for Dependant, it could use faster rate (and its opposite Mature conversely).
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on March 02, 2014, 07:12:35 AM
Then disposition fields in traits xml are useless, just disable them completely.

Ok, I'll try to do so tonight.

We have Mind Fucked, Kind, Dependant and Broken Will with small disposition bonuses. We already have a good effect for Mind Fucked, and Kind seems a bit out pf place here.
Broken Will probably should be less dependent on disposition rather than raise it faster, I'll think about it. As for Dependant, it could use faster rate (and its opposite Mature conversely).

Faster rate for dependent as well then.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on March 02, 2014, 05:24:07 PM
Broken Will probably should be less dependent on disposition rather than raise it faster, I'll think about it. As for Dependant, it could use faster rate (and its opposite Mature conversely).

I didn't spend to much time studying traits and their effects and just basically coded what you've told me to. This is what mods it now:

Code: [Select]
                if key == 'disposition':
                    if self.__dict__['effects']['Introvert']['active']:
                        value = value - int((value - getattr(self, 'disposition'))*0.2)
                    elif self.__dict__['effects']['Extrovert']['active']:
                        value = value + int((value - getattr(self, 'disposition'))*0.2)
                    elif self.__dict__['effects']['Impersonal']['active']:
                        value = value - int(round((value - getattr(self, 'disposition'))*0.3))

Do we have any items that increase disposition by the way? I mean like temporary consumables or something girl might wear? Because if we have, I'll have to change this code a bit as well or we'll get multiplication thing like we used to have with experience.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on March 03, 2014, 02:38:37 AM
We have some items that permanently change current disposition. I don't think we have temporary or equipable ones, they don't make any sense to me.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on March 03, 2014, 09:27:55 AM
Ah yes, we have various shackles that reduce max disposition when equipped. But, as I said,  I thought we could use it somehow for slaves, and we should try to introduce them properly within slave training/rmg capturing systems.
So I might as well remove them for now if it's a problem.

We also have misc items that change its current value either once or constantly, I hope it's not a problem.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on March 03, 2014, 10:08:51 AM
Ah yes, we have various shackles that reduce max disposition when equipped. But, as I said,  I thought we could use it somehow for slaves, and we should try to introduce them properly within slave training/rmg capturing systems.
So I might as well remove them for now if it's a problem.

We also have misc items that change its current value either once or constantly, I hope it's not a problem.

Modding Max of disposition may prevent certain events from ever be accessible for those girls but we don't have any events anyway...

For the rest, none of this is a problem, I'll just adjust the code a little bit to prevent multiplication of the stat, it's just one or two lines.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 13, 2014, 04:27:41 PM
Hi!
Wanted to mention this for a while now, but I never got around to actually do it.
It has nothing to do with the discussion about attribute and trait redundancy (as discussed in the stat concept thread), it's just something that bothers me.

Can you/we please get rid of pseudo-japanese traits that only exist in the urban dictionary?

Dandere -> Shy & easily attached (is there a trait for the second?)
Kuudere -> Cold/blunt & kind
Tsundere -> Cold/blunt & easily attached
Yandere -> Violent & easily attached

The reason is that I think that words that don't even exist in the dictionary shouldn't be used as traits, they shouldn't be used at all. Having to use a search engine to find out what a term means is something that should never happen in a modern application - and the meaning for these words is far from obvious when you're not reading mangas.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on December 14, 2014, 06:24:00 AM
Tsundere -> Cold/blunt & easily attached

Tsundere is shorter and more to the point and we do have tooltips.

*Traits themselves are prolly not a very good concept for the game and should be split but it's too much work at this development stage and work hours our team can invest into development.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 14, 2014, 08:03:10 AM
All existing packs are made of japanese characters from various anime and games, yet we shouldn't use common japanese terms...
Maybe when we'll have at least 4-5 decent non japanese packs, it will start to make sense.

I personally don't read mangas btw, I became familiar with these terms after joining wm ex development three years ago.

*Traits themselves are prolly not a very good concept for the game and should be split but it's too much work at this development stage and work hours our team can invest into development.
If you want to propose something better, I'd like to hear it. It's not like we will change the concept immediately after that.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on December 14, 2014, 10:07:43 AM
If you want to propose something better, I'd like to hear it. It's not like we will change the concept immediately after that.

Well, for starters: traits are a foreign concept.

First I wanted to code an original SimBro remake to get into coding (Ren'Py/Python).
Second we decided to make a WM remake dropping SimBro thing (after you and CW joined in).
And then we decided to have a new game.

Living often asks to "define" stuff for example. I usually can do that for most things in the game but traits are an exception. It seems to be a pot for anything that can possible describe the character (this is generated from my version (devlog.info(traits.keys()) in console), it may not be most up to date one):

[u'Collected', u'Merciless', u'Not Human', u'Lucky', u'Broken', u'Disobedient', u'Professional Maid', u'Restrained', u'Former Assassin', u'Shy', u'Fragile', u'Adventurer', u'Magic Gift', u'Sadistic', u'Tomboy', u'Long Legs', u'Mind Fucked', u'Clumsy', u'Curious', u'Easy to Reward', u'Half-Sister', u'Combat Training', u'Malicious', u'Ill-mannered', u'Unlucky', u'Obedient', u'Strict Morals', u'Protective', u'Energetic', u'Extremely Jealous', u'Lesbian', u'Easy to Punish', u'Kind', u'Meek', u'Impersonal', u'Average Boobs', u'Old Scars', u'Exhibitionnist', u'Serious', u'Pervert', u'Magic Talent', u'Bisexual', u'Abnormally Large Boobs', u'Alien', u'Tsundere', u'Small Boobs', u'Big Boobs', u'Genius', u'Sexy Air', u'Smart', u'Outgoing', u'Fearless', u'Iron Will', u'Broken Will', u'Strange Eyes', u'Edgy', u'Silly', u'Retarded', u'Great Figure', u'Athletic', u'Dandere', u'Elegant', u'Pessimist', u'Manly', u'Aggressive', u'Kleptomaniac', u'Lolita', u'Psychic', u'Great Arse', u'Artificial Body', u'Virgin', u'Nymphomaniac', u'Noble', u'Famous', u'Always Hungry', u'Frigid', u'Well-mannered', u'Masochist', u'Yandere', u'Kuudere', u'MILF', u'Sensitive', u'Optimist', u'Tough', u'Dawdler', u'Dependant', u'Loner', u'Heavy Drinker', u'Nerd']

I think this should be split into:

- Personality (preferably one type, maybe Japanese "dere" type).
- Body Descriptors (for games internal use, stuff like big boobs that is apparent from images).
- Race (We can do without at this stage).
- Sexual orientation

- Talents (stats and skill mods on increases to replace stuff like smart, genius, lucky and etc.).
- OR/AND talent/skills trees to unlock similar things.

- And maybe some personal traits like Heavy Drinker, Unbreakable, Curious and etc.

But it's not something I want to work at before the next release, we are already working on too many things/updates.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 14, 2014, 12:59:44 PM
Hi!
I know too little about how traits are used to comment on how useful the system is, but this...
All existing packs are made of japanese characters from various anime and games, yet we shouldn't use common japanese terms...
... is simply wrong (twice actually).
First, those are not common japanese terms. They are common in mangas, that's where they originated from, but in regular japanese they are just word combinations (tsundere for example is a combination of tsun tsun (blunt) and dere dere (lovey dovey)).
Second, the game is in english - no amount of character packs changes that. English game, english terms.

Also, replace easily attached with affectionate. No idea why that didn't cross my mind before.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 14, 2014, 03:07:33 PM
Hm, it's hard to explain. You see, these words, ~dere terms, are archetypes that are common as hell in that part of japanese culture that provides us countless female characters. I mean it, there are tens of thousands pictures per character for some titles on pixiv alone, and there are thousands characters.

Morever, if you are familiar with the concept, then one word will tell you everything, since they usually describe character's personality entirely, or almost entirely. Even though now you know their approximate meaning, you still don't understand them even as I do (and my understanding is nothing compared to japanese otaku's understanding).
These archetypes don't just describe characters. On the contrary, japanese artists often create characters entirely based on them.

Another problem is lack of western packs. I don't even know where to start here.
- A lot of shitty pictures.
- Lack of various hentai pictures.
- In some cases, huge variety in looks. Characters are so old that their appearance changed multiple times.
- Issues with describing. Many of them simply don't have a well written personality (or it was written at the level of ten-year olds, like in many comics).
- Not many good pictures in general. You don't just have to endure shitty pictures, you also have a low chance to find good ones.

@Xela, I'll think about that.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: Xela on December 14, 2014, 03:19:06 PM
@Xela, I'll think about that.

Just keep in mind that even thought it's a bad idea to completely change the whole system until release, we should get rid of traits that specify stats in relationship to stats of other characters (Genius, Lucky, Well-mannered) and etc. Also stuff like Profissional Maid should disappear.

*On the "dere" front, at some point you found a pic with all Japanese personality development types and I suggested to use that instead of traits so I don't mind :)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 14, 2014, 03:59:38 PM
Hi!
...
Your arguments have nothing to do with the problem.

I know that these words are common in the japanese manga culture. You are right that western characters are often less suitable for packs, mostly because of the image quality. It is true the terms in question describe a personality type quite well.
But all that is not part of the problem.

The reason is that I think that words that don't even exist in the dictionary shouldn't be used as traits, they shouldn't be used at all. Having to use a search engine to find out what a term means is something that should never happen in a modern application - and the meaning for these words is far from obvious when you're not reading mangas.
Tooltips don't change that (unless you want huge tooltips that nobody will ever read [psychological fact]). Your arguments don't change that.

The trait system was designed to describe the character's personality with multiple terms, so why are you trying to describe it in one at all cost?
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 15, 2014, 01:33:13 AM
- Every character that had tsundere trait before will have blunt and easily attached traits instead. So we have more traits out of nowhere with the very same meaning that are not used separately only to make sure that people unfamiliar with otaku culture at all can understand everything without reading wiki for 5 minutes. And this is going on in hentai game.

- English terms don't reflect personality as accurate as japanese ones. Meanings that you wrote in your post are not entirely wrong, but not accurate either. So if we don't use ready terms, we have to struggle with describing specific characters personalities.
An analogy. It's like describing a color without mentioning its actual name.

- English is not my native language. Same goes for Xela and Cherry.
From my point of view, english terms = japanese terms written in English, if you want to talk about dictionary.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 15, 2014, 12:03:08 PM
Hi!
- Every character that had tsundere trait before will have blunt and easily attached traits instead. So we have more traits out of nowhere with the very same meaning that are not used separately only to make sure that people unfamiliar with otaku culture at all can understand everything without reading wiki for 5 minutes. And this is going on in hentai game.
Yes, this is exactely the point.
I've been working on many interfaces with many translations in the past and one of the major rules always was to keep terms simple, reduce descriptions as much as possible, everything should be self-explanatory instead. Requiring knowledge of a specific culture is an absolute no-go.

Those rules (that every decent UI programmer and web designer follows) didn't come out of nowhere. If you can't accept that, then I can't help you.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 15, 2014, 02:07:07 PM
I understand your point. But it doesn't give a better solution so far.

Xela proposed to use archetypes as core traits just now in order to simplify the system. How can we achive it without using collective terms?
I guess I could read wiki a bit and use professional psychological terms to accurately describe personalities like psychologists irl do. But those terms are not widely known either.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 16, 2014, 03:25:26 AM
I've been working on many interfaces with many translations in the past and one of the major rules always was to keep terms simple, reduce descriptions as much as possible, everything should be self-explanatory instead.
Out of curiosity, did you ever played final fantasy 13? I bet now, when they released it on two consoles and pc, almost everyone is familiar with the game. And it's not too old to be forgotten already.

So the game has like dozens of unpronounceable, similar in spelling, invented by devs from scratch terms in first 5 hours or so that are hard to remember and very confusing. You basically have to read carefully every single article in your journal if you want to understand what are they talking about and what's going on at all in some cases, because no one cares to explain it somewhere else.

I've seen people complaining about it here and there, but generally no one cares much.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 16, 2014, 03:24:03 PM
Hi!
Before saying anything about FF13: A negative example (that had a lot of budget available) doesn't justify a mistake.
Learn from the mistakes that others made instead of repeating them because it somehow worked for others.

Now how is it that few people complained about that issue in Final Fantasy 13?
First things first, you are right, what they did isn't good. However, FF has a mostly hardcore community base - fans of the series more than anything else. Small things like names don't stop hardcore fans. On a global scale, FF is not very successful (when seen in relation to the budget).
Second, most people don't complain about issues. If they are severe enough to make them quit the game, they quit the game. If not, they continue playing and accept the flaws. So as long as an issue doesn't make the game unplayable it will most likely not be mentioned very often. That there still were several players complaining speaks for itself in that regard.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 17, 2014, 09:05:35 AM
Yeah, well, if you have any ideas about how to quickly and accurately describe almost all personalities better than this (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/236/c/a/anime_archetypes__my_ocs_by_punkichi-d6jh23m.png) thing, they are welcomed.  :)
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: MuteDay on December 17, 2014, 10:37:38 AM
Well i have to say when it comes to traits, yes you have a tiptool when it comes to the traits but what about those of us that dont read manga we just enjoy playing games, then half of your traits make no sence and the others just are criptic as hell
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 17, 2014, 11:25:29 AM
...You guys keep insisting that I read mangas like there is no tomorrow, but the only manga I ever truly read is soul eater, because they distorted the story in the anime completely.
Propose a better system instead, I dare you.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 17, 2014, 11:47:11 AM
Hi!
Let me try to get some things clear:
...You guys keep insisting that I read mangas like there is no tomorrow
No. But the terms in question originated from mangas and that's where they are mostly used. That you learned them elsewhere doesn't change their origin.
And unfortunately, PyTFall is not a manga.

Propose a better system instead, I dare you.
Challenge accepted.
Just kidding, it's not about the system. The problem is that the system was designed for multiple descriptive terms. The terms that you are defending here however are archetypes. Archetypes are mutually exclusive, descriptive terms are not.
Both approaches are acceptable, but not combined. We have to settle for one.

So it's either descriptive terms as they are now but without the archetypes (which could be replaced by a few extra terms) or archetypes only (that should then be translated into english).
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 18, 2014, 09:46:14 AM
Why is that? Even when using archetypes, there are different characters exist. There could not be tsundere+yandere. But there could be tomboy+tsundere, just tsundere or just tomboy.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 18, 2014, 01:07:02 PM
Hi!
Why is that?
Because that would defeat the purpose of archetypes.
Also, tomboy is not an archetype.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: DarkTl on December 19, 2014, 09:00:56 AM
- You just said that we should not combine archetypes and descriptive terms. Tsundere is archetype, tomboy is descriptive term. Without having both of them we cannot describe some personalities.
- Archetypes are not all-embracing. There are differences between characters of the same archetype. Descriptive terms help us to describe those differences.
- If English is your native language, you have better chances to translate ~dere terms properly than me.
Title: Re: Traits Concept
Post by: livingforever on December 19, 2014, 11:49:47 AM
Hi!
- You just said that we should not combine archetypes and descriptive terms. Tsundere is archetype, tomboy is descriptive term. Without having both of them we cannot describe some personalities.
- Archetypes are not all-embracing. There are differences between characters of the same archetype. Descriptive terms help us to describe those differences.
- If English is your native language, you have better chances to translate ~dere terms properly than me.
Valid points, especially the second one.
Let me say it like this: I never said that we can't have archetypes and descriptions, I only said that having both as traits doesn't make sense.
Splitting it (like Xela proposed) into a personality type (archetype) and talents (traits) might not be such a bad idea.

I still think that replacing each archetype with a few descriptive traits is the easiest solution though.

Also, I'm not a native English speaker either.
Have fun!