<-- Archived --> **Traits Concept

[livingforever]

Hi!
Wanted to mention this for a while now, but I never got around to actually do it.
It has nothing to do with the discussion about attribute and trait redundancy (as discussed in the stat concept thread), it's just something that bothers me.

Can you/we please get rid of pseudo-japanese traits that only exist in the urban dictionary?

Dandere -> Shy & easily attached (is there a trait for the second?)
Kuudere -> Cold/blunt & kind
Tsundere -> Cold/blunt & easily attached
Yandere -> Violent & easily attached

The reason is that I think that words that don't even exist in the dictionary shouldn't be used as traits, they shouldn't be used at all. Having to use a search engine to find out what a term means is something that should never happen in a modern application - and the meaning for these words is far from obvious when you're not reading mangas.
Have fun!

[Xela]

Tsundere -> Cold/blunt & easily attached

Tsundere is shorter and more to the point and we do have tooltips.

*Traits themselves are prolly not a very good concept for the game and should be split but it's too much work at this development stage and work hours our team can invest into development.

[DarkTl]

All existing packs are made of japanese characters from various anime and games, yet we shouldn't use common japanese terms...
Maybe when we'll have at least 4-5 decent non japanese packs, it will start to make sense.

I personally don't read mangas btw, I became familiar with these terms after joining wm ex development three years ago.

*Traits themselves are prolly not a very good concept for the game and should be split but it's too much work at this development stage and work hours our team can invest into development.

If you want to propose something better, I'd like to hear it. It's not like we will change the concept immediately after that.

[Xela]

If you want to propose something better, I'd like to hear it. It's not like we will change the concept immediately after that.

Well, for starters: traits are a foreign concept.

First I wanted to code an original SimBro remake to get into coding (Ren'Py/Python).
Second we decided to make a WM remake dropping SimBro thing (after you and CW joined in).
And then we decided to have a new game.

Living often asks to "define" stuff for example. I usually can do that for most things in the game but traits are an exception. It seems to be a pot for anything that can possible describe the character (this is generated from my version (devlog.info(traits.keys()) in console), it may not be most up to date one):

[u'Collected', u'Merciless', u'Not Human', u'Lucky', u'Broken', u'Disobedient', u'Professional Maid', u'Restrained', u'Former Assassin', u'Shy', u'Fragile', u'Adventurer', u'Magic Gift', u'Sadistic', u'Tomboy', u'Long Legs', u'Mind Fucked', u'Clumsy', u'Curious', u'Easy to Reward', u'Half-Sister', u'Combat Training', u'Malicious', u'Ill-mannered', u'Unlucky', u'Obedient', u'Strict Morals', u'Protective', u'Energetic', u'Extremely Jealous', u'Lesbian', u'Easy to Punish', u'Kind', u'Meek', u'Impersonal', u'Average Boobs', u'Old Scars', u'Exhibitionnist', u'Serious', u'Pervert', u'Magic Talent', u'Bisexual', u'Abnormally Large Boobs', u'Alien', u'Tsundere', u'Small Boobs', u'Big Boobs', u'Genius', u'Sexy Air', u'Smart', u'Outgoing', u'Fearless', u'Iron Will', u'Broken Will', u'Strange Eyes', u'Edgy', u'Silly', u'Retarded', u'Great Figure', u'Athletic', u'Dandere', u'Elegant', u'Pessimist', u'Manly', u'Aggressive', u'Kleptomaniac', u'Lolita', u'Psychic', u'Great Arse', u'Artificial Body', u'Virgin', u'Nymphomaniac', u'Noble', u'Famous', u'Always Hungry', u'Frigid', u'Well-mannered', u'Masochist', u'Yandere', u'Kuudere', u'MILF', u'Sensitive', u'Optimist', u'Tough', u'Dawdler', u'Dependant', u'Loner', u'Heavy Drinker', u'Nerd']

I think this should be split into:

- Personality (preferably one type, maybe Japanese "dere" type).
- Body Descriptors (for games internal use, stuff like big boobs that is apparent from images).
- Race (We can do without at this stage).
- Sexual orientation

- Talents (stats and skill mods on increases to replace stuff like smart, genius, lucky and etc.).
- OR/AND talent/skills trees to unlock similar things.

- And maybe some personal traits like Heavy Drinker, Unbreakable, Curious and etc.

But it's not something I want to work at before the next release, we are already working on too many things/updates.

[livingforever]

Hi!
I know too little about how traits are used to comment on how useful the system is, but this...

All existing packs are made of japanese characters from various anime and games, yet we shouldn't use common japanese terms...

... is simply wrong (twice actually).
First, those are not common japanese terms. They are common in mangas, that's where they originated from, but in regular japanese they are just word combinations (tsundere for example is a combination of tsun tsun (blunt) and dere dere (lovey dovey)).
Second, the game is in english - no amount of character packs changes that. English game, english terms.

Also, replace easily attached with affectionate. No idea why that didn't cross my mind before.
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

Hm, it's hard to explain. You see, these words, ~dere terms, are archetypes that are common as hell in that part of japanese culture that provides us countless female characters. I mean it, there are tens of thousands pictures per character for some titles on pixiv alone, and there are thousands characters.

Morever, if you are familiar with the concept, then one word will tell you everything, since they usually describe character's personality entirely, or almost entirely. Even though now you know their approximate meaning, you still don't understand them even as I do (and my understanding is nothing compared to japanese otaku's understanding).
These archetypes don't just describe characters. On the contrary, japanese artists often create characters entirely based on them.

Another problem is lack of western packs. I don't even know where to start here.
- A lot of shitty pictures.
- Lack of various hentai pictures.
- In some cases, huge variety in looks. Characters are so old that their appearance changed multiple times.
- Issues with describing. Many of them simply don't have a well written personality (or it was written at the level of ten-year olds, like in many comics).
- Not many good pictures in general. You don't just have to endure shitty pictures, you also have a low chance to find good ones.

@Xela, I'll think about that.

[Xela]

@Xela, I'll think about that.

Just keep in mind that even thought it's a bad idea to completely change the whole system until release, we should get rid of traits that specify stats in relationship to stats of other characters (Genius, Lucky, Well-mannered) and etc. Also stuff like Profissional Maid should disappear.

*On the "dere" front, at some point you found a pic with all Japanese personality development types and I suggested to use that instead of traits so I don't mind

[livingforever]

Hi!

...

Your arguments have nothing to do with the problem.

I know that these words are common in the japanese manga culture. You are right that western characters are often less suitable for packs, mostly because of the image quality. It is true the terms in question describe a personality type quite well.
But all that is not part of the problem.

The reason is that I think that words that don't even exist in the dictionary shouldn't be used as traits, they shouldn't be used at all. Having to use a search engine to find out what a term means is something that should never happen in a modern application - and the meaning for these words is far from obvious when you're not reading mangas.

Tooltips don't change that (unless you want huge tooltips that nobody will ever read [psychological fact]). Your arguments don't change that.

The trait system was designed to describe the character's personality with multiple terms, so why are you trying to describe it in one at all cost?
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

- Every character that had tsundere trait before will have blunt and easily attached traits instead. So we have more traits out of nowhere with the very same meaning that are not used separately only to make sure that people unfamiliar with otaku culture at all can understand everything without reading wiki for 5 minutes. And this is going on in hentai game.

- English terms don't reflect personality as accurate as japanese ones. Meanings that you wrote in your post are not entirely wrong, but not accurate either. So if we don't use ready terms, we have to struggle with describing specific characters personalities.
An analogy. It's like describing a color without mentioning its actual name.

- English is not my native language. Same goes for Xela and Cherry.
From my point of view, english terms = japanese terms written in English, if you want to talk about dictionary.

[livingforever]

Hi!

- Every character that had tsundere trait before will have blunt and easily attached traits instead. So we have more traits out of nowhere with the very same meaning that are not used separately only to make sure that people unfamiliar with otaku culture at all can understand everything without reading wiki for 5 minutes. And this is going on in hentai game.

Yes, this is exactely the point.
I've been working on many interfaces with many translations in the past and one of the major rules always was to keep terms simple, reduce descriptions as much as possible, everything should be self-explanatory instead. Requiring knowledge of a specific culture is an absolute no-go.

Those rules (that every decent UI programmer and web designer follows) didn't come out of nowhere. If you can't accept that, then I can't help you.
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

I understand your point. But it doesn't give a better solution so far.

Xela proposed to use archetypes as core traits just now in order to simplify the system. How can we achive it without using collective terms?
I guess I could read wiki a bit and use professional psychological terms to accurately describe personalities like psychologists irl do. But those terms are not widely known either.

[DarkTl]

I've been working on many interfaces with many translations in the past and one of the major rules always was to keep terms simple, reduce descriptions as much as possible, everything should be self-explanatory instead.

Out of curiosity, did you ever played final fantasy 13? I bet now, when they released it on two consoles and pc, almost everyone is familiar with the game. And it's not too old to be forgotten already.

So the game has like dozens of unpronounceable, similar in spelling, invented by devs from scratch terms in first 5 hours or so that are hard to remember and very confusing. You basically have to read carefully every single article in your journal if you want to understand what are they talking about and what's going on at all in some cases, because no one cares to explain it somewhere else.

I've seen people complaining about it here and there, but generally no one cares much.

[livingforever]

Hi!
Before saying anything about FF13: A negative example (that had a lot of budget available) doesn't justify a mistake.
Learn from the mistakes that others made instead of repeating them because it somehow worked for others.

Now how is it that few people complained about that issue in Final Fantasy 13?
First things first, you are right, what they did isn't good. However, FF has a mostly hardcore community base - fans of the series more than anything else. Small things like names don't stop hardcore fans. On a global scale, FF is not very successful (when seen in relation to the budget).
Second, most people don't complain about issues. If they are severe enough to make them quit the game, they quit the game. If not, they continue playing and accept the flaws. So as long as an issue doesn't make the game unplayable it will most likely not be mentioned very often. That there still were several players complaining speaks for itself in that regard.
Have fun!

[DarkTl]

Yeah, well, if you have any ideas about how to quickly and accurately describe almost all personalities better than this thing, they are welcomed. 

[MuteDay]

Well i have to say when it comes to traits, yes you have a tiptool when it comes to the traits but what about those of us that dont read manga we just enjoy playing games, then half of your traits make no sence and the others just are criptic as hell