Slavery Ideas

[Alugere]

I was under the impression the majority of the government was corrupt as all fuck. They aren't gonna give a damn if you have a license or not so long as you *cough* pay the proper taxes.... *has sudden idea*

Instead of paying for a license, why not have all slavegirls have a tax, and once a month a guy comes around, checks your girls, and charges you a tax for each one with a tattoo. 5000 is a big price to pay for a guy who only makes like 2 slaves, and a pittance for a guy who makes tons, a tax would scale up with the amount of slaves you have. just make it like 100-300 gold a turn

You do realize that, until you train the fuck out of slave girls they only make 100-300 gold per turn? Maybe try making your tax 1-3gold per turn

Edit:... I suppose it might be more accurate to say training the fuck into girls instead of out of them, though.

[LordShame]

It's called enslaving them illegally. Since your brothel has the only entrance to the catacombs, no one will be able to tell if you are catching and enslaving the girls or simply purchasing exotic slaves from some unknown location. Essentially, there is no way for the authorities to tell know if you are enslaving the monster girls when you don't have a permit.

There might be a question to ask as to whether monster girls have "rights" to begin with. If you pull out a demon chick from the catacombs, I doubt there would be riots in the streets demanding equal rights and civil liberties for hellspawn. 

In fact you're probably more likely to see mobs with pitchforks and torches, heh.
 

[DocClox]

At the end of the day, it's first and foremost a game mechanic. I firmly believe that one of the reasons that winning this game falls somewhat flat is that there's a shortage of intermediate aims and objectives. Making control of the slave tattoo something the player has to work for gives a regular objective. It's a bit of power in the game that has to be earned, rather than given by default. I think this will help build a richer game.

I appreciate that this is not going to be to everyone's taste, and people who'd rather not engage with the more strategic elements of the game can turn it off and it will stay turned off.

And I agree that the economics of slave ownership need rebalancing.

[Alugere]

The main thing I'm going to say is this: If you have to spend money to gain slaves, then slaves should be better than free women who don't cost money.

Say, slaves earn just as much, but cannot refuse to work, and don't complain at not keeping any of their pay.

[DocClox]

Duly noted.

[Mehzerz]

I think it's a great idea Doc, and if it's an interchangeable setting in the game then no one has a reason to complain.
One of the biggest problems with the game is lack of goals, and I see how you're trying to fix that, and this is certainly a good way of doing it.
It wouldn't hurt to add the ability to get a license that never expires at some point in the game. You complete a certain objective and a new shop opens up in town, with the hidden slave market (Maybe sells only unique girls?) Perhaps double their price) a shop to buy the license that never expires (Cost 100k perhaps) a shop for rare items and ect.
I'm all for adding new game features and a way to use money. However, getting an illegal license doesn't sound like a bad idea either. You can buy it at a discounted rate. But it raises suspicion? Perhaps sometimes it doesn't work 100% and gives girls a random negative trait?
But then the tax idea isn't too bad either... instead of a tax collector coming by though, you'd just have it deducted from the pay of each encounter maybe 10%? So slaves would make 10% less than a girl without the tattoo.
I dunno, I like the license idea better. Something you have to keep up with, something you have to deal with YOURSELF. Managing girls and gangs is all well and good, but come on. Give me something else every once in a while.

[Rose]

Well, according to the flavor text, the slave tattoo is magical, which gives me this idea: It needs a "mage" to apply it, so at first you'll need to hire someone to apply the slave brand for, say, 200-300 gold per slave (and the girls have to willingly submit to being branded, unless you pay a bribe for a "no questions asked" branding). But if you get a better than average reputation, you can apply to learn to do the branding yourself. Say a one time fee of 5000 gold and taking up all your talk actions for a few weeks, and after that you can brand your girls yourself at no cost.

[letmein]

Here's what I think slaving should be about:  lower happiness (in general), less (or, in some cases, zero) chance of refusing things or running away, less income (slaves are motivated by fear, not money, and thus perform worse - although the current disparity in incomes might be a wee bit extreme).  This system would be pretty balanced, since the decrease in money is theoretically offset by the extra control, and happiness doesn't matter (well, doesn't matter so long as the girl can't run away, become addicted to drugs, or suicide - at least two of which should definately be limited by slavery, and possibly hte third as well).  I would think that for the most part everyone here would agree on these - except, possibly, for the income bit, but if you don't agree with me there I'll take the high road and simply ignore you instead of telling you you're an uneducated, blathering fool that should be shot out of a cannon into a pile of broken glass, then dumped into a fish tank full of starved piranhas and muriatic acid.

Anyway, back on topic, if we are mostly agreed on the game mechanic differences between slavery and freedom, the next question is what the game mechanics should be to change from one to the other.  Obviously, there should be a punishment of some kind to prevent players from switching girls from one to the other too often, because what sane person is going to stay that way when they are constantly and repeatedly 'freed' then branded into slavery.  Damn.  Now, I actually think the current punishment is probably enough - the happiness hit is less important than the health hit, which at least forces a time delay in the process.  Having money be involved isn't necessary; whether it should be invoved anyway is... dicey.  I, personally, think not, but that's mostly because - gasp! - it's never been done that way before - endgasp.

[Command]

THis is a very interesting idea.  What about also including a way to purchace slaves illegally.
 
Like after you aquire enough territory your organization discovers a way to get into an illegal slave market.  Which offers slaves with differant abilliites from Legal slaves but you need to be careful about not letting the guards find them.
 
Also I had an idea about when you get those males where you can brand them and immediatly sell them to the market.
 
I had an idea that why not also give the option of using them in your organization for various tasks.  Like use the new male slave as a grunt, or a money launderer, Caseno acountant, or any number of jobs.  Kind of like having your own network of agents forced to do your bidding.  This would also play alot into their loyaltyt to you.  Some you could get their loyalty by the threat of turning his family into slaves if he doesn't work for your.

[Alugere]

Here's what I think slaving should be about:  lower happiness (in general), less (or, in some cases, zero) chance of refusing things or running away, less income (slaves are motivated by fear, not money, and thus perform worse - although the current disparity in incomes might be a wee bit extreme).  This system would be pretty balanced, since the decrease in money is theoretically offset by the extra control, and happiness doesn't matter (well, doesn't matter so long as the girl can't run away, become addicted to drugs, or suicide - at least two of which should definately be limited by slavery, and possibly hte third as well). ...

Given that I almost never have a free girl become addicted to drugs (When I have drugs in the item file), commit suicide, or run away when I'm not trying to brand them, you're basically making it to where having slaves is completely pointless.

If slaves earn less, then they should get a significant boost because you already have to pay to purchase them. Therefore, slaves should earn as much as free girls and have a lower chance of refusal.

Maybe set it to where the amount a girl earns is dependent on her happiness: if you treat your slave or free woman poorly, she earns less.

However, slaves still have the same potential for happiness as free women. If you make it otherwise, you get into the massive array of a large number of traits that would change max happiness.
'Broken Will', 'Mind Fucked', 'Dependent', and 'Meek' would eliminate any cap on happiness in any girl, free or slave, while traits like 'aggressive', 'merciless', 'tsundere', 'sadistic', or a bunch of other ones denoting strong willed or aggressive girls would drastically reduce the cap on happiness because the girls, free or enslaved but more so free, would not like to work as a prostitute.

[zodiac44]

I think if we define the culture of the society a bit (as it pertains to slaves) then we can settle this argument somewhat.  If Crossgate has a slavery culture similar to the southern US, pre-civil war, then slaves should most definitely take huge penalties to happiness and their "productivity" per unit time should be reduced, though they would have no free will to refuse working at all, on punishment of severe beating of themselves, their families, their friends, and/or random other slaves.  They would not be permitted to retain any identity not given to them by their masters.  They have no legal or property rights.  They are treated as animals: bought, sold, and bred as such.  I would strongly prefer that this not be the model we use.

In some other cultures, slaves were afforded legal and property rights, along with a social standing commensurate with their owner's.  The slaves of a nobleman may well be higher in social standing than the average freemen.  In such societies, there may not be a stigma associated with being a slave, especially if slaves are generally well treated by their owners.  Some people may willingly sell themselves into slavery (to pay family debts, for example); they give a lifetime of service in exchange for the guarantee of their basic needs being met (food, clothing, shelter).  In pre-modern civilizations, the average freeman was far from guaranteed to meet his basic needs, nevermind those of his family, so becoming a slave in exchange for a guarantee was a pretty good deal for many.  Many such societies gave slaves property rights as well, and high status slaves often owned slaves themselves (rather common, I'm given to understand, in the Roman empire).  Under such a system, slavery becomes a social contract, which happens to be easier for one party to break than the other.  I vastly prefer such a system (it also fits the fantasy-esque setting much better, IMNSHO).

The second option doesn't preclude forcing or coercing people into slavery against their will, but it also doesn't reduce slaves to the status of animals.  One can be quite happy as a slave and terrified of the responsibility of being free in such a system.

The second system also has the convenience of eliminating most of the issues brought up so far.  There would be no need to change how happiness and the PC[emotion] stats are calculated, the rebelliousness functions, how traits are applied, etc.  The only fix needed is to equalize the amount charged per customer for slaves and free girls with the same stats.  It also would let us write scripts where the girls willingly become slaves (either by asking the player or vice-versa).

I'm not trying to remake slavery into a positive thing, just less horrific.

[dcb42]

Honestly, I like to look at it the other way around - not "let's find ways to penalize slaves," but instead "let's find ways to make free girls better."

I mean, you have to figure that in a city like Crossgate, which is explicitly stated to be run by criminals, the rule is basically "might makes right;" slavery has to be incredibly widespread. It should be the norm for a brothel owner, and a free whore should be a rare thing indeed.

So why free your girls? Well, for one thing it makes them very happy - they see slaves every single day, and get reminded that their lives can't be all bad - at least they're not slaves, right? - giving a daily (small) bonus to Happiness and PCLove. For another, they know full well that they have to do good work in the brothel, or else there's always the threat of being enslaved and sold off; they should have a lower chance to refuse to work. Also, their greater freedom should make the Free Time "job" more effective; for them, it really is free time, as opposed to a slave's free time, which is still within certain strict limits imposed by their owner. Maybe only free girls are permitted to carry weapons, too?

In Crossgate, slavery should be everywhere. It's the default. There's no sense in sugar-coating it, I figure. so don't penalize it; just make the alternative more attractive, nice little bonuses in exchange for the loss of complete control.

[zodiac44]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we penalize slaves - they are already less preferable to free girls, which is the problem.

From an economic standpoint, your suggestion makes no sense whatsoever.  Slaves cost money to acquire, free girls don't, ergo there must be a tangible benefit to owning slaves, or slave ownership doesn't happen.

[DocClox]

First of all, I see the choice to keep your girls as slaves or otherwise as being largely a role-playing issue. I think the two should be balance closely enough that there isn't really a gameplay advantage of one over the other.

This is the way I'd like to see it work. Some of this is already in place, some of it is bugged, and some needs implementing. In an ideal world, however:

• Support: Slaves work for free, and you can keep them in kennels should you so choose. Free girls demand reasonable accommodation, and decent living conditions.  If they don't get these things, happiness should plummet, leading to refusal to work and walking out.
• Disposition: Keeping free girls is the "good" thing to do, and improves your reputation around town
• Happiness: Free girls tend to be happier
• Recruitment: You can buy slaves from the market. This is the only way to get girls which is  fast, reliable, and risk-free. Acquiring free women should need some sort of recruitment drive, which is also going to cost money. I don't think kidnapping should be a reliable way to recruit girls, and snatching free women off the street and telling them they have to whore for you should definitely be a risky proposition. Monster girls should be hard to get (need to fix the catacomb bug) and doubly risky as a source of free whores.
• Ownership: You own slaves and can sell them. When they run away you can hunt them down and drag them back again. If a free woman leaves your employ, there is nothing you can do about it. It is her right.
• Obedience: Slaves should obey more often than free girls, although they won't be happy about doing it. Free girls can refuse to work. You can punish both for disobedience, but an unhappy free girl may leave your employ.
• Money: Slaves may own money and property, but only at the indulgence of their master. All girls should go shopping if they have the cash, but free girls will have more money to buy things to make themselves more attractive. This means that free girls should need less micromanagement.
• Drugs: Slaves are less happy, and so more prone to drugs when available. Free girls are more likely to have the funds to buy them, however.

I don't think that's too badly slanted either way. Also, bear in mind that when I get done with this ongoing finance re-write, you'll be able to adjust slave prices and the like, so there should be plenty of scope to rebalanced things in keeping with your personal vision, if you don't much care for mine.

[Command]

What about also having wages for the free girls.  Since they aren't slaves you would likely need to pay them more than slaves.  It could start getting expensive if you have large numbers of free girls so it would make the player try to limit how many free girls he has in his brothels.