The Gang topic.

[Lorde]

We probably need a focused discussion on Gangs. Seeing as how the main focus on the Less is more thread was on them. So I'll add my chips to the pile first I guess.

• Don't need to remove gangs. Just need to fix them. Removing them just dummies down the game. Admittedly, all they currently do is give you benefit with very little restriction.
• Potential to zerg with Gangs currently is a huge balance issue. You can, from the very start of the game, hire the first 2 "stronger" gangs you get and set them on Acquire Territory with little to no consequence. You will have a ridiculous amount of territory before your rivals or the authorities take notice of you.  Then take one off and put them on guard duty. Hire 6 more gangs, max out there weapons and put them on training till there lowest stat is in the 50's. Now just Set those 6 on sabatoge and you will eventually win. All rivals gone, All new rivals turned into "A sticky, runny, pink paste.... That is seeping into the cracks of the floor as we speak" within 2 weeks.
• Girls are already being given many tasks gangs are given with the new updates. Why not have the ability to make gangs from the girls?

[DocClox]

Don't need to remove gangs. Just need to fix them. Removing them just dummies down the game. Admittedly, all they currently do is give you benefit with very little restriction.

Agreed. I think it's important to have a game to go with the H elements. This is why Illusion's last few offerings have been so dreadful, IMHO: they removed from their games every element that didn't involve pr0n, and wound up with no game at all.

Potential to zerg with Gangs currently is a huge balance issue. You can, from the very start of the game, hire the first 2 "stronger" gangs you get and set them on Acquire Territory with little to no consequence.

I agree the gang side of the game is neglected. I'd like to see smarter rivals, more work from the player needed to find them and eliminate them, rival strongholds that needed to be stormed, and intelligence gathering to find them in the first place. Mind, the last time I proposed giving the gangs some love I got a flea in my ear for trying to "make the game not be about the girls anymore".  It seems there's always opposition to any gameplay element that doesn't directly result in a picture of a pair of naked breasts.

  Girls are already being given many tasks gangs are given with the new updates. Why not have the ability to make gangs from the girls?

I've always resisted the girl-gangs idea when it's cropped up in the past. Not sure why, to be honest, it just doesn't sit well with how I see the game, I suppose. That said, it's a popular proposal, and I was thinking of doing much the same thing in clonemaster, so maybe we should do it. Technically, it's not entirely straight forward, but if we're considering overhauling gangs in the first place we could probably roll the work into that.

[megamanx]

Why not make it so the girl gangs can only go into the catacombs when the option to do other-things with them is implemented.

[Lorde]

Agreed. I think it's important to have a game to go with the H elements. This is why Illusion's last few offerings have been so dreadful, IMHO: they removed from their games every element that didn't involve pr0n, and wound up with no game at all.

With few exceptions, Japan has become a shovelware mill churning out the "exact same thing that made money 3 months ago." Can't really blame them, there economy is in the shitter just like everyone else's. But it's damaging there reputation and let western game developers finally grab the brass ring. (Thank atari for losing it in the first place) 

Nowhere is this more pronounced then in the H game area. There are 4 H games being released constantly in japan. One where the Heroines all get gang raped, one where the heroines are all lolitas, one where a guy scores with different school girls and one Illusion makes that's 3d. Been this way since 2005 probably won't change till another company comes along and kicks Illusions ass (2 years tops. Some of the 3d amateur work on DLsite is starting to look very good.)  Then we will see a Renaissance in 3d H gaming. Illusion will have to adapt or die. And if they can't adapt, and come out with a decent "game" then good riddance.

I agree the gang side of the game is neglected. I'd like to see smarter rivals, more work from the player needed to find them and eliminate them, rival strongholds that needed to be stormed, and intelligence gathering to find them in the first place. Mind, the last time I proposed giving the gangs some love I got a flea in my ear for trying to "make the game not be about the girls anymore".  It seems there's always opposition to any gameplay element that doesn't directly result in a picture of a pair of naked breasts.

Like I said before, give them a link to infranvue and some image packs and send them on there way.

I've always resisted the girl-gangs idea when it's cropped up in the past. Not sure why, to be honest, it just doesn't sit well with how I see the game, I suppose. That said, it's a popular proposal, and I was thinking of doing much the same thing in clonemaster, so maybe we should do it. Technically, it's not entirely straight forward, but if we're considering overhauling gangs in the first place we could probably roll the work into that.

Why not make it so the girl gangs can only go into the catacombs when the option to do other-things with them is implemented.

Here is a cool compromise, small groups of 4-6 girls like an xp party. Hell you can even add RPG elements way in the future.

[Bluebeholder]

I'll take role of the opposition then.

After reading both this thread and the more is less thread the main argument for keeping gangs is increased interactivity and depth.  (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)

In that vein I propose that absorbing gangs into the girls will create opportunity for more interactivity and depth.

Merging the two systems creates a single system that has the depth of both without the additional programing, balance and micromanagement costs two systems.  For example currently there are two ways to raid the catacombs if someone wants to improve that job they have to do so twice and balance both in order to keep both the gangs and girls in order.  The reduction in overhead allows the programmers to make the girls system reach a greater potential faster.  Like how while we're close to getting recruitment scripts for girls there's is nothing like that on the horizon for gangs. There are a lot of thing that are on the table to fix(movie making), make meaningful(accommodations/STDs) and to add(customizable brothels, town walk scripts).  What gets neglected to expand gangs to where they're as interesting as the girls?

What do gangs add? Gangs add complexity but they do not add depth.  As it stands there is nothing a gang does in-game that cannot be co-opted by the girls.  All gangs are are a collection of stats, a few jobs and a pool of consumables.  Girls have all of this already with more options, customization and detail.

In addition a girl is more relateable with a picture and a bit of history rather than a faceless mob.  I'm unhappy when one of them dies but couldn't care less when a gang bites it.

Personally, I find both systems too simplistic and would like to have a more nuanced system with greater depth.  Rolling them together seems a logical step to have one great system.  Where as maintaining gangs entails recreating certain activities robbing potential depth, storytelling and interactivity from the girls side. So, unless gangs get an overhaul that makes them interesting and truly distinct from girls I say trash them and make brothel customization the sub-game.

By the way it's a great game and I only take this position because I really do think it will make a better game in the long run.

[Lorde]

More Ideas I had.

An alternate approach would be to have just 1 gang. Have it at 100 max members and set checkboxes on what they can or can't do. (sorta like brothel setup with all the checkboxes for what can go on there.)

Training and recruitment are automatically handled. Items can be bought for your gang to improve stats. (new item catagory)

Stats can be a range that gets higher while tightening as the gang gets more powerful.  (example: Combat starts at a range of 0-20 and ends at a range of 95-100) Gangs succeeding without dying raises these numbers.  losing members causes these numbers to drop)

You can add girls to this "Gang" that would give the gang  bonuses to certain tasks. (Example, give a girl the job of catacombs, your gang has a bonus towards a successful catacombs run.) 

[megamanx]

That idea could work beautifully.

[fires_flair]

ya, it would also give us a place to put useless girls, to get them out of the way (they do still go back into the pool and reappear in the slave shop right?), if this is removing them from the brothels. it could also add another money drop, non-brothel housing, upkeep, etc. if slaves are used this way, if free girls are used then they would have to provide for themselves (you can trust them not to run away, or at least they have the right to) which adds some balance between slaves vs free girls.

[Mehzerz]

WM has been through major engine overhauls since it's conception. This has delayed any major progress on enhancing any existing gameplay, while this is not a bad thing I think the most important thing WM needs is to become more personal. You don't care about your gangs because they're just numbers going out to do various tasks for you. Whatever your reason for caring about your girls (She's your favorite, she's your best) whatever that may be just doesn't do the same for gangs. Once you max out a gang you can always replace their numbers so there's no real sense of "loss" and since you never interact with the various members of the gangs they don't mean anything to you.


This is not to say girls don't have the same lifeless feeling as gangs do. They most certainly do. Adding a "face" to your gangs would be a start, but it wouldn't do much in the end. And while I don't disagree it would be cool to have your girls be gang leaders, it just makes Crossgate seem like a town full of women. Which I'm pretty sure it is not.


Now I've been pushing for more interaction within the game since it started, so I may be more biased on my thoughts than some of the others, but I have no doubt once we can add NPCs you can interact with, negotiate with, give a face for the governor and various other NPCs as well as gangs. WM will be 100x bigger than it is now. It only feels empty because you simply don't care about anything or anyone. They're all replaceable. Yes, you're a slave owner so you shouldn't have feelings for anyone who isn't paying you right?


But will you be able to turn a woman down half naked covered in bruises, cuts and blood being chased by some thugs?


Do you ignore her or help her?

You beat up the thugs, rescue the damsel allow her to heal and rest in your home. Then the next day you find your vault was broken into and you're 10k short. The girl? Nowhere to be found.


I'm sure a solid scripting system will change all this, imagine what the community could do? Can you even think of how big this game would be? Hell, with a solid scripting system you can lay the foundation to your own story, own events what have you. It'll be pretty much an open book for creativity. You could essentially make your own game from it.


I personally think all WM needs at the moment is more of a narrative, allowing us to use images for NPCs and interacting with them.


As it stands WM is a fairly solid game, there's some balancing problems, there isn't much to strive for but that could be addressed at another time, it just feels very very empty. Modders are flooding it with girls to try and make it seem less barren but the fact of the matter is, there's nothing to keep the player playing. You have to make your own imaginary goals.


After getting SLIGHTLY off topic I would like to say giving the gangs leaders would be a viable option, it'd be silly to give the whole gang a face and interact with them, but more so a leader, captain, commander whatever you want to call them. Would be the person in charge, this person would offer various boosts to the current gangs stats and abilities. (+10 to strength, bonus to kidnapping ect.) They'd only need a single image to portray that they're the leader and you could even add a bar area where you can find these people. Instead of having random ones though, i'd make them all fairly unique and very limited I'd say only allow 5 you can recruit to exist in any given game. Perhaps that's too many? I'm not sure. I suppose that it could also be a role for your sons. Who knows?

[Bluebeholder]

Mehzerz: It sounds like you are conceiving of a narrative structure like King of Dragon Pass or Castles II. Or is there another example game that illustrates how you want to have story better?

I disagree on the girls being completely lifeless.  While in game they are quite lifeless most people have ones that they have opinions about of outside of WM.  While illogical it does creates a bond to that character that nothing currently in WM can compare to.

Also my vote is naming the leaders Lieutenants for the mafia feel. 
 

Lorde:  I like your idea as it's something different that just won't be a simpler version of the girls.  Am I correctly thinking of it working like ordinances from SimCity; check what  options you want with various rewards, heat levels and casualty rates?  Oh, could it have the slow corruption or reformation of the city council opening up new options(Eg now we're the official city watch) like HentaiHigh had?

[Lorde]

WM has been through major engine overhauls since it's conception. This has delayed any major progress on enhancing any existing gameplay, while this is not a bad thing I think the most important thing WM needs is to become more personal. You don't care about your gangs because they're just numbers going out to do various tasks for you. Whatever your reason for caring about your girls (She's your favorite, she's your best) whatever that may be just doesn't do the same for gangs. Once you max out a gang you can always replace their numbers so there's no real sense of "loss" and since you never interact with the various members of the gangs they don't mean anything to you.

Agreed, which is one of the reasons I thought of the idea of 1 gang. If it's just a collection of numbers, just simplify it.

This is not to say girls don't have the same lifeless feeling as gangs do. They most certainly do. Adding a "face" to your gangs would be a start, but it wouldn't do much in the end. And while I don't disagree it would be cool to have your girls be gang leaders, it just makes Crossgate seem like a town full of women. Which I'm pretty sure it is not.

Possible answer to this would be support for male prostitutes. 

Now I've been pushing for more interaction within the game since it started, so I may be more biased on my thoughts than some of the others, but I have no doubt once we can add NPCs you can interact with, negotiate with, give a face for the governor and various other NPCs as well as gangs. WM will be 100x bigger than it is now. It only feels empty because you simply don't care about anything or anyone. They're all replaceable. Yes, you're a slave owner so you shouldn't have feelings for anyone who isn't paying you right?


But will you be able to turn a woman down half naked covered in bruises, cuts and blood being chased by some thugs?


Do you ignore her or help her?

You beat up the thugs, rescue the damsel allow her to heal and rest in your home. Then the next day you find your vault was broken into and you're 10k short. The girl? Nowhere to be found.


I'm sure a solid scripting system will change all this, imagine what the community could do? Can you even think of how big this game would be? Hell, with a solid scripting system you can lay the foundation to your own story, own events what have you. It'll be pretty much an open book for creativity. You could essentially make your own game from it.



I personally think all WM needs at the moment is more of a narrative, allowing us to use images for NPCs and interacting with them.

You are 100% right. If anything the game needs more interactivity with the world and the people who live in it. When that's finished however, Mechanics can wait..... Still nice to talk about though.

As it stands WM is a fairly solid game, there's some balancing problems, there isn't much to strive for but that could be addressed at another time, it just feels very very empty. Modders are flooding it with girls to try and make it seem less barren but the fact of the matter is, there's nothing to keep the player playing. You have to make your own imaginary goals.


After getting SLIGHTLY off topic I would like to say giving the gangs leaders would be a viable option, it'd be silly to give the whole gang a face and interact with them, but more so a leader, captain, commander whatever you want to call them. Would be the person in charge, this person would offer various boosts to the current gangs stats and abilities. (+10 to strength, bonus to kidnapping ect.) They'd only need a single image to portray that they're the leader and you could even add a bar area where you can find these people. Instead of having random ones though, i'd make them all fairly unique and very limited I'd say only allow 5 you can recruit to exist in any given game. Perhaps that's too many? I'm not sure. I suppose that it could also be a role for your sons. Who knows?

I like the idea of passing off gang leadership to the players sons. Would make pregnancy important. Risks turning the game into a breeding sim. But why not?

 
  Lorde:  I like your idea as it's something different that just won't be a   simpler version of the girls.  Am I correctly thinking of it working   like ordinances from SimCity; check what  options you want with various   rewards, heat levels and casualty rates?  Oh, could it have the slow   corruption or reformation of the city council opening up new options(Eg   now we're the official city watch) like HentaiHigh had?
 

That's actually a good allegory with SimCity. The game already has a checkbox set up for your brothel. Where you click what can and can't go on there. In a similar vain, For gangs, you check off what they can or can't do.

[sgb]

The one big problem I can see with the 'one gang' idea is that it can lead to the player being unable to ever recover.  If the gang takes some losses to a raid and loses stats, it can lead to a snowball effect where your gang will never be strong enough to repel raids and just keep getting weaker and weaker until you lose.  Having multiple gangs means that if one takes unexpected losses, you still have another at full stength to deal with attacks.  I like the one gang idea otherwise, as this would be much easier to integrate with girl jobs as you say.

I think a compromise and some tweaks could work here:
-Reduce the number of gangs the player can control.  Maybe like 4 at most.
-Recruiting should lower stats, as you're replacing trained gang memebers with fresh recruits.  Combined with the lower gang limit, this would encourage the player to avoid reckless assignments.
-Have a cap on training.  After a certain point, you should have to give gangs real experience to improve.  This would eliminate players from parking gangs on Training until they are invincible.
-Instead of assigning girls to a gang, have certain jobs give a % boost to success like advertisting currently works.

-Theft assignments needs a major balance overhaul.  At the moment, sabotage brings in WAY more money and eventually removes your rivals from the game.  Some things off the top of my head;

Petty Theft should be extremely safe and have a chance to get the player common type items.  I'd suggest even removing the chance to be killed on this entirely, as robbing old ladies should not result in thugs getting killed.  This would ideally make a viable alternative to Training, only you get some income at the expense of stats not going up as fast.

Grand Theft should have the same risk as now, but have higher average gold rewards a chance to get uncommon to rare level items as well.  This would make the gains worth the risk compared to sabotage.

[fixet]

how would guarding work with one gang?

would you have to choose between raiding the catacombs and guarding your property? or anything else?

would they be able to do multiple tasks? if so, why not just stick with the gangs we have?

personally, I'd prefer just expanding on the system we have now

[Lorde]

would they be able to do multiple tasks? if so, why not just stick with the gangs we have?

Less complexity for a start. Why bother with putting a gang on guard duty, training another, putting your training gang on guard duty when the first gang gets trounced. Forgetting your first gang has fully recruited thus having 2 gangs guarding. Putting second gang back on training. Only to repeat the above. Then you leave the second gang on guard duty and train the first.....

Would be easier to just have one gang and click off an option "This gang will guard" and a percentage of goons will be put on guard duty from the larger pool. They then replenish there number as needed.

The one big problem I can see with the 'one gang' idea is that it can lead to the player being unable to ever recover.  If the gang takes some losses to a raid and loses stats, it can lead to a snowball effect where your gang will never be strong enough to repel raids and just keep getting weaker and weaker until you lose.

Was thinking of a way out of this scenario. Having gangs revert to guarding status when there number / stats hit a certain point would be a good safety net.

-Have a cap on training.  After a certain point, you should have to give gangs real experience to improve.  This would eliminate players from parking gangs on Training until they are invincible.

Why not eliminate training all together? have the gangs improve by doing. Small jobs at first. When the gang gets sufficiently strong enough, it can move on to more risky assignments.

[Mehzerz]

Petty Theft should be extremely safe and have a chance to get the player common type items.  I'd suggest even removing the chance to be killed on this entirely, as robbing old ladies should not result in thugs getting killed.

I still think there should be a very very small chance a member or two could be killed. Much like in Reservoir Dogs when the guy who robs a bank had no way thought some random civilian would shoot him, i'd imagine it'd be similar to that concept. .5% chance, could even write a special blurb about it.


Otherwise I pretty much agree with everything else. I don't think there should be any 100% safe way to do anything when running a gang and brothel. Especially if your suspicion is on the higher end of the scale.