Author Topic: Future suggestions to improve difficulty  (Read 38679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

exodia91

  • Guest
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »
if they were that beautiful, they'd earn more in the brothel. And the fact you see 100% beauty as to be on the level of two probably fictional characters from myths... well that's how you choose to see it, not how it is. and remember Looks is a combination of 2 stats, beauty and charisma, good charisma can make up for 50 beauty and the girl can still make it to 100% looks I believe. So not all 100 looks girls are drop dead gorgeous, they just know how to move, act, and talk, to raise their appeal.

Offline DocClox

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Messing Around With Python
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2009, 02:26:12 PM »
Yeah, that's one of my concerns as well: beauty is too cheap.

Maybe something else for a possible configuration screen.

Offline LordShame

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2009, 06:21:16 PM »
if they were that beautiful, they'd earn more in the brothel. And the fact you see 100% beauty as to be on the level of two probably fictional characters from myths...

You misunderstand my point. The thing is, 100% looks is the hard cap. It is the point where no possible improvement can be made, whether from natural beauty or trained grace or behavior or even clothing. That is the stuff of myth and legend, which is why I brought these particular characters up. If I get a girl who is at maximum attractiveness before I even buy her a pair of shoes, that should be a really special girl. It should be a rare occurence, and an extremely compelling one in terms of game mechanics. But as it stands, such beauty is commonplace. You have no incentive to treasure it. Work her to death; who cares? You can get another one easily and she'll be just as pretty.

That said... For the sake of this discussion, let's throw out my "100% looks is divine perfection in body and/or grace and it is the stuff of legends" thing, since I do agree that it can be a matter of individual perspective. Forget that entirely, and let's consider game mechanics.

We have an issue of scale and comparison. Let's face it: pretty much every unique girl that's going to be put in this game is a knockout to begin with. I mean, I made a "plain girl" template purely for gameplay purposes, but I'm not seeing any "average girl megapack! get your regular women here!" thread anywhere on this forum. At this point, there aren't many unique girls who have less than 50% looks. We're usually talking about 60 or more, with many of them having an outright 100. The result is that over half of our 1-100 looks scale is basically pointless, since you can afford to only consider buying/hiring getting girls that are 80+ because they're everywhere.

On top of that, we have all the 100% girls who are exactly as attractive as one another (and by attraction I mean the looks stat, the charisma/beauty combination.) Not only does it make the charisma/beauty distinction completely meaningless, since no improvement on either will make any difference, but it also makes these girls less unique.

And there's more: once you have a bunch of natural 100% looks girls, you pretty much throw the entire clothing system out the window. Let's say I'm a real life pimp, and I got a beautiful girl, the hottest woman I've ever seen. You can be sure I'm going to deck her out in the most beautiful clothes and the most expensive jewelry. She'll be blinged the fuck out. I'll spare no expense to make her look even more gorgeous. But in the game, when you can buy 100% looks girls right off the rack, there's no incentive to do that. Clothes are just a waste of money. At that point, expensive dresses and jewelry are just used to bring a regular girl up to speed, but why would you even have a regular girl to begin with when you've got all these knockouts around?

Let's try arbitrary numbers. Let's say a regular woman, not super cute, not ugly, neither particularly elegant nor trashy, is 40 looks. We put, say, a butterface with great tits and a sexy voice at 30, and anything under 10 is kind of repulsive. On the other side of the scale, we put a reasonably attractive woman at 50 and knockouts start at 60. (I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass, of course. I'm just trying to give an idea of proportion here.)

Already, we start with the idea that 60 and up is pretty damn hot and 40+ isn't too bad. This is already different from the current mindset of the game where anything under 90 isn't even worth looking at. On top of that we now have the top 40 grades of the 1-100 scale that can be used to describe and compare extremely beautiful women.

Now imagine that there's a percentage in play in the slave market and town walks, where most girls you see and meet are in the 40-60 range. 20-40 and 60-80 are uncommon, and 0-20 and 80-100 are rare.

Suddenly you can't run your brothel on 100 looks girls anymore, because they are few and far between and they'll get overworked. You'll have a few 60-80s to pick up the slack, and maybe some 40-60s as strippers or barmaids since you need a bunch and it's not a big deal if they don't make a lot of money.

On top of that, let's say you want to satisfy specific fetishes. You want a dickgirl in your brothel, because dickgirl fans keep leaving your place disappointed. There's a 35 looks dickgirl in the market, and you can buy her right now. Are you going to get her, or are you going to wait for a 90+ looks girl who also happens to have a penis? If 90+ girls are common, that's not a problem, but if they're rare, you may not want to wait until one shows up. Suddenly, that 35 looks girl you wouldn't even have paid attention to before has become useful to the game. The number of strategic decisions the game demands of you has increased, and challenge becomes subtly greater.

Now I don't know if the specifics of that sort of thing are feasible, and it's a blatant oversimplification, but it's just a basic example of one way things could go. The main point is that the way things are, with how common high looks % is, in most circumstances a girl is either extremely valuable or basically worthless. It's almost a binary switch with no strategic depth.

I like how skills are done though, they seem really sensible and so far I approve of how everyone's handled them.

EDIT: I'm sorry if it seems like I'm coming down harshly on the custom girl packs; that's not my intention, and I certainly appreciate all the effort that goes in them. It's just a balance/strategy issue that I think needs adjustment and I don't want to disparage anyone's work.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 06:57:15 PM by LordShame »

Offline zodiac44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2009, 07:14:17 PM »
What if you got rid of the "looks" stat, and simply had beauty and charisma act separately?  Keep beauty as an unchangeable stat, or something which can only be improved with makeup and/or clothing (and perhaps cap the maximum contribution of each).  Keep charisma the same.  Then instead of checking for looks, check for charisma or beauty, whichever is more appropriate for a given situation.
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline Mehzerz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Rockin' the after life after party
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2009, 07:15:38 PM »
I agree with you Lord Shame. I don't even buy girls on the market if they're below 80% there's no need. Because 80%+ is fairly common not to mention full 100% I generally find at least one 100% on my first search in the market. None of these girls have high rebellion either.
Starter girls image additions progress:
26 girls, 18 to go

Offline letmein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2009, 08:13:46 PM »
Nice summation, LS.  I, personally, agree with you - from a gameplay perspective.  For the modders, I can see why they'd say "no".  Who wants to make ugly girls?  Who the hell determines which ones are ugly, given that they're all taken from rather good-looking [drawn] women from across the width and breadth of the Internet?

Still, there is an issue of quality bloat among all the girls, from the randoms to the modded.  There's really only two ways to fix that - either all the modders have to agree to a certain standard (good luck; and after you succeed, there are some refridgerators I'd like to you unload in Siberia), OR someone has to create a equilizer mod.  Even the second option isn't, perhaps, a good one;  I would hope that any modmodder would get an OK from the modders he's changing the works of (which he may not get), and even then the standards for everything would be wholly arbitrary based off of that one person's idea.

Or, you know, we could do nothing.  I bet that's what happens.  I'd do something about it if I could find a few hours of spare time, but that's not happening either.
Still lurking.

Offline DocClox

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Messing Around With Python
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2009, 08:24:31 PM »
or, we can add a beauty multiplier to the config screen I proposed earlier on.

Set it to 50% and 100% girls will appear as 50%, while 50% works out as 25%. I think I'd default it to 100 but set mine to 75.

Another useful value when we come to define difficulty levels :)


Offline letmein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2009, 08:31:52 PM »
Well, that might help, but then the issue comes that you'd *never* find the 100% looks girl.  I wouldn't want that - especially since I think charisma is still capped, and IIRC looks isn't an alterable stat, meaning you couldn't even make one.
Still lurking.

Offline zodiac44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2009, 08:50:33 PM »
In the current implementation, the save files track additions to charisma (and other stats) separate from the base stat, with the end result being the sum of the two capped at 100.  I think that when the game calculates looks, it takes beauty + charisma base + charisma modifiers, and derives looks from that, without taking the cap on charisma into account.  So with a beauty of 50, base charisma of 50, and +100 in charisma mods, you'd get 100 looks (assuming that looks is the average of charisma and beauty).  If this is the case, then even with a cap on beauty, it is still trivial to get even the ugliest girl to 100% looks.

[edit]

Nevermind, turns out I was wrong.  I was seeing the boost from traits, not the overage from charisma.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 09:09:41 PM by zodiac44 »
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline DocClox

  • Dev Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Messing Around With Python
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2009, 09:20:03 PM »
Well, that might help, but then the issue comes that you'd *never* find the 100% looks girl.  I wouldn't want that - especially since I think charisma is still capped, and IIRC looks isn't an alterable stat, meaning you couldn't even make one.

Well... if I fiddle with the maths for a bit, I should be able to work out some sort of  bell curve so higher values still happened, but rarely. Or we could set it so that beauty was always high relative to charisma, so you'd always be able to train looks up to the sort of level the game generates currently. Be a bit difficult if the % drops below 50, but there might be scope for some rare and expensive beauty enhancers, too

Offline zodiac44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2009, 09:40:35 PM »
If you are going to be adding the option to mess with the beauty stat, you could make it a randomly generated number on a bell curve.  To use a dice-rolling analogy, you could assign 5d20 to the beauty stat, which would average 52.5 with exceptionally high and low values being rare.  Given that it is a program, you can assign virtual dice of any size (for example, 5d21-5 averages exactly 50 with a range of 0-100).  More dice means a steeper curve.
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline letmein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2009, 09:56:35 PM »
If you make the looks value random, though, then you have to wonder why not do so for *all* stats?  Is that not the point of having "random" girls?

It's not that I disagree with you; quite the opposite.  I, personally, might like to see a total randomizer for (non-random) girls that redoes all their stats, perhaps taking traits into account or something.  I just don't know if that's doable or desirable.  If such a change was implemented (or modded), then the only difference between random girls and specific ones would blur, and the specifics would basically become no more than randoms with specific traits and names.  Again, I personally do not see that as a terribly bad thing; it would make the game less predictable, and better balanced for those of us who wish it so and won't or can't *mod* it so.
Still lurking.

exodia91

  • Guest
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2009, 10:00:44 PM »
or, instead of all the crazy complicated stat system changes which would take forever to balance perfectly, you could limit how many unique girls can be in each brothel, and tweak the random girls stat probabilities. You would need to make them more special in some way, say give them custom abilities, but only allow like 3 in a brothel at any given time. This would make unique girls more "unique", and balance them at the same time. It would also give random girls their time to shine, and if you make great looking random girls rarer, solves your problem too.

Balmung60

  • Guest
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2009, 10:06:16 PM »
I actually kind of liked the idea of just not using a looks percentage and just using the straight-up beauty and charisma values so there is no "perfect" or 100%, at least unless you make an item that could ensure a maxed beauty stat or something since it's already possible to cap charisma with the help of items (I think).

Offline letmein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
Re: Future suggestions to improve difficulty
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2009, 10:09:20 PM »
My argument to you, exodia, is that you've done too good a job in creating the unique girls.  I like the pictures...  I wouldn't want to have to stare at the endless lists of random girls.

Plus, this would be taking a step toward SimBrothel (with it's "brothel leaders" or whatever they're called), and I'm of the firm belief that that's not a good idea. There are several reasons for that, the main one being that this game is better than that one *now* - why copy an inferior product?
Still lurking.