Maximum number of traits

[exodia91]

and that leads to: what traits would get pruned? From what I can see, most of them are pretty important to describing a girl, and no matter how you code it, putting girls on a strict limit of traits is going to lead to some weird girls. Plus, its pointless, you can just load up a .girls file in the editor, and in a couple of minutes trim down girls to what you like. So for a possibly large amount of coding you have a minimal effect on gameplay, and save a few picky people 5 minutes or less of work.

[letmein]

Yeah, but that's 5 minutes per girl.  Plus, from my admittedly poor knowledge of coding, I wouldn't suspect that it would be all that tough to do; disregarding any GUI issues or whatever it would be a limiting count on a loop, with perhaps a check on a couple specific traits.  Including GUI, it admittedly becomes slightly longer but Doc said he's planning a screen for various mechanics tweaks anyway, so why not toss this in? 

If Doc is willing to do it, and if there are people who would use the option if it existed, why not allow it?  It's not going to add any complications to the main game, and ignoring the whole thing entirely will be a perfectly viable choice.  What's the huge issue that warrants a page-long argument?

[exodia91]

5 minutes per girl? more like 5 minutes for a huge list of girls, unless you agonize over what to change. With WM editor you can open up the .girls file, and just go down the list of girls taking out traits, then save it. Simple.

[Mehzerz]

Though I'd prefer if girls had a smaller trait limit. I don't mind it being insanely high either.
I do agree though, with so many traits it makes them seem less "unique" I guess? At this point in the game, traits don't seem to effect a whole lot other than a select few, so I can't say I really mind them.
When and if there's more traits that offer stat bonuses or what have you is when I'd like to see more of a limit. If that happens, I hope there's more negative traits to counter balance the flood of positive traits.
I just don't want any girls who are pretty much gods at everything from the start. Unless you have to work super hard to get one of these girls. Kind of like... a secret dungeon I suppose, or even the legendary pokemon. Legendary girls. :p

[NuMysterio]

Perhaps the best way to settle this would be to divide up the traits into different catagories.

One set of traits would be the core traits, what makes the girl that girl, and are limited.

Then you have Fetish traits that have next to no limits and can be shared between girls.

So like Demon, Catgirl, Construct and such would be Core traits, while Great Arse and Great Figure would be fetish traits.

[DocClox]

That would work. Means a little bit more work for me, but that would solve the problem.  Fetish traits could be dropped more or less at random, since all they do is affect the number of customers you get.

[zodiac44]

I like the idea, but I can already see girl makers protesting that <trait> isn't on the core traits list but it is absolutely essential to <character's> personality.

[Mehzerz]

I like the idea, but I can already see girl makers protesting that <trait> isn't on the core traits list but it is absolutely essential to <character's> personality.

I can't argue that you could be right. However, great figure, nice arse, sexy air, are more personal opinion than anything. What would core traits include other than Construct, cat girl ect. ?


It seems some traits that could be considered fetishes could also be considered core traits. Now it's just figuring out what would appease both parties on what should be where.

[DocClox]

I can't argue that you could be right. However, great figure, nice arse, sexy air, are more personal opinion than anything. What would core traits include other than Construct, cat girl ect. ?

Can we say "essential" rather than "core". Otherwise I foresee confusion with the CoreTraits resource file.

I think Essential would be anything that reflects species (demon, catgirl, construct) or anything that affects game mechanics (beyond a stat boost, or a customer fetish). So "sterile" would be essential because it stops a girl getting preggers. Big Boobs wouldn't since all it does is boost looks. So,  on that basis:

Code: [Select]

ESSENTIAL
Sterile         # game effect
Dependant       # game effect
Cat Girl        # species/origin
Demon           # species/origin
Incorporial     # species/origin
MILF            # seems right
Fragile         # game effect
Mind Fucked     # game effect
Construct       # game effect
Half-Construct  # game effect
Tough           # game effect
Horrific Scars  # stats, but seems to belong here
Quick Learner   # xp
Slow Learner    # xp
Shroud Addict           # game effects
Fairy Dust Addict       # game effects
Viras Blood Addict      # game effects
Aggressive              # game effects
Assassin        # potential game effects
Sexy Air        # game effect
AIDS            # game effect
Chlamydia       # game effect
Syphilis        # game effect
Tsundere        # game effect
Yandere         # game effect
Fearless        # game effect
Iron Will       # game effect

NON-ESSENTIAL
Big Boobs       # stat boost
Strange Eyes    # fetish
Puffy Nipples   # fetish
Perky Nipples   # fetish
Charismatic     # stat boost
Charming        # stat boost
Different Colored Eyes  # fetish
Long Legs       # fetish
One Eye         # fetish
Eye Patch       # fetish
Futanari        # fetish
Optimist        # stats
Pessimist       # stats
Fleet of Foot   # stats
Small Scars     # stats
Cool Scars      # stats
Cool Person     # stats
Nerd            # fetish
Clumsy          # stats
Fast orgasms    # stats
Slow orgasms    # stats
Strong          # stats
Psychic         # stats
Cute            # fetish
Strong Magic    # stats
Lolita          # fetish
Nervous         # fetish
Not Human       # fetish
Adventurer      # fetish
Great Figure    # fetish
Great Arse      # fetish
Small Boobs     # fetish
Good Kisser     # stat
Nymphomaniac    # stat
Elegant         # stat
Fake orgasm expert      # stat
Broken Will     # stats
Masochist       # stats
Sadistic        # stats
Lesbian         # stats
Twisted         # fetish
Meek            # fetish
Manly           # fetish
Merciless       # fetish

So, that would be about 50% of all traits are essential. A few of those you could argue either way, but overall, I'm not sure that essential traits are scarce enough to make the distinction worth while.

[letmein]

I'd put the addictions on the non-essential list - they're too easy to add or get rid of to be a major consideration for girl creation.  Diseases too.  Sexy Air is also a little too general IMHO to be "essential".  Aggression, Fearless, Tough and Iron Will could be nixed... same for Fragile, the Learners, Tsundere and Yandere, maybe even Assassin.  The idea, I assume, is to make the essentials be *really* essential, and I don't think any of the above are necessary to describe any particular girl, although the last half-dozen are somewhat debatable.  My goal would be to make the list really be as small as possible, and contain the REALLY, REALLY essential points of describing a girl:  that means physical traits ONLY.  Mental ones can be kept as semi-random, but if a girl is a demon that really shouldn't change from game to game.

As for ones that *should* make the list, I'd say One Eye and Not Human.

[DocClox]

Fair points - I was trying to be consistent in the way I sorted them, but I think i'd agree with all of those.

Must have missed "non-human". that should definitely be on the essential list.

[edit]

Let's try that taking your suggestions into account. I left Iron Will and Fearless in because some girls ought to be a pain to break.

Code: [Select]

ESSENTIAL
Sterile         # game effect
Dependant       # game effect
Cat Girl        # species/origin
Demon           # species/origin
Incorporial     # species/origin
Mind Fucked     # game effect
Construct       # game effect
Half-Construct  # game effect
Tough           # game effect
Horrific Scars  # stats, but seems to belong here
Iron Will       # game effect
Not Human       # fetish
Fearless        # game effect

NON-ESSENTIAL
Fragile         # game effect
Assassin        # potential game effects
Aggressive      # game effects
Big Boobs       # stat boost
Strange Eyes    # fetish
Puffy Nipples   # fetish
Perky Nipples   # fetish
Charismatic     # stat boost
Charming        # stat boost
Different Colored Eyes  # fetish
Long Legs       # fetish
One Eye         # fetish
Eye Patch       # fetish
Futanari        # fetish
Optimist        # stats
Pessimist       # stats
Fleet of Foot   # stats
Small Scars     # stats
Cool Scars      # stats
Cool Person     # stats
Nerd            # fetish
Clumsy          # stats
Fast orgasms    # stats
Slow orgasms    # stats
Strong          # stats
Psychic         # stats
Cute            # fetish
Strong Magic    # stats
Lolita          # fetish
Nervous         # fetish
Adventurer      # fetish
Great Figure    # fetish
Great Arse      # fetish
Small Boobs     # fetish
Good Kisser     # stat
Nymphomaniac    # stat
Elegant         # stat
Fake orgasm expert      # stat
Broken Will     # stats
Masochist       # stats
Sadistic        # stats
Lesbian         # stats
Twisted         # fetish
Meek            # fetish
Manly           # fetish
Merciless       # fetish
AIDS            # game effect
Chlamydia       # game effect
Syphilis        # game effect
Tsundere        # game effect
Yandere         # game effect
Quick Learner   # xp
Slow Learner    # xp
Shroud Addict           # game effects
Fairy Dust Addict       # game effects
Viras Blood Addict      # game effects
MILF            # seems right
Sexy Air        # game effect


So that gives us 13 essential traits. If we set a default cut-off of 15 (the current max appears to be 30 rather than 60) then all the essentials could be preserved, with room left over for a couple of random ones. This could be workable

[Rose]

I hope you're still intending to make the whole trait-limit thing an optional thing that the player can turn on or off. Especially since your list of Essential Vs. Non-essential is pretty much based around gameplay, while to most girl creators gameplay is (I think) less important than character design (for example, things like "eye patch" or "tsundere" are often a defining trait of the character)

[DocClox]

I hope you're still intending to make the whole trait-limit thing an optional thing that the player can turn on or off.

Yes. I'm not trying to coerce anyone into anything here. I'd like to make sure there's always room for the game to add traits, and I'd like to encourage girl creators to be a bit more frugal with their use of traits. On the other hand, I accept that different people enjoy the game for different reasons. I don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the game.

Especially since your list of Essential Vs. Non-essential is pretty much based around gameplay, while to most girl creators gameplay is (I think) less important than character design (for example, things like "eye patch" or "tsundere" are often a defining trait of the character)

mmm... See, I'd have said that the visuals gave you all the eye-patch cues you need. You look at the picture, you see a girl with an eye patch, job done. The only thing the trait adds to the game is that you get a few more customers with eye-patch fetishes, and most people can probably live without that.

As regards "tsundere", I tend to agree, but then we need to draw a line somewhere.

Maybe the solution is just to post "lite" versions of the various .girls files and be done with it.

[zodiac44]

Within the game itself, I really think you only have 2 options: do nothing, or add an option to prune all but X traits randomly.

[NuMysterio]

So that gives us 13 essential traits. If we set a default cut-off of 15 (the current max appears to be 30 rather than 60) then all the essentials could be preserved, with room left over for a couple of random ones. This could be workable

That's really too few.  The idea was to make it so the girl builder has to really consider what's important to the girl while letting them go wild with the fetishes.  The diseases and addictions I can see pulling, but the rest of letmein's suggests are, frankly, wrong.  They should be left in there as they define the girl as a character, and are generally NOT fetishes.