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Feedback => Bugs and Game balancing => Topic started by: exodia91 on November 14, 2009, 06:10:25 PM

Title: balancing catacombs
Post by: exodia91 on November 14, 2009, 06:10:25 PM
I recently played a few games, and I've noticed catacombs are.... way overpowered. you can put 3 decent gangs on it first week, buy some potions, and you will have a damn good income,so much so that you can ignore pretty much any other money maker if you want. Now, we could spend years tweaking death rate, money gain, etc. etc. and not get anywhere, so instead I propose this. Players can only put 1, maybe 2 gangs on the  catacombs job at any time. you'll still be able to earn a decent little income, but it won't be able to supplant/replace major moneymakers.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: delta224 on November 14, 2009, 06:57:57 PM
Yeah, the catacombs are out of balance, but I probably won't touch them until  1.30 comes out to see what has happened with the buildings.  It will be worked on though.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 14, 2009, 07:23:37 PM
See, I'd go a different route.  If anything, make catacombs better, but increase the death rate considerably.  Make it so that untrained, ill-equipped gangs only have a survivor a quarter of the time (if that), and even completely buffed groups have substantial casualties every time they go.  Once gangs are redone (to make recruiting harder), this should be a substantial enough risk to compensate for the substantial reward.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: exodia91 on November 14, 2009, 10:39:29 PM
... the problem with that is, potions stop any casualties from happening, at least in the latest version, so you can just throw untrained goons at them with a bunch of potions and they will all ALWAYS survive. Unless this is changed (which would arguably make potions useless) that just makes catacombs more lucrative.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 15, 2009, 01:08:30 AM
I guess I didn't mention it here, but elsewhere I have also noted that potions are way overpowered.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Midnight_Amratha on November 16, 2009, 02:41:38 AM
suggestion, make the income of catacombs dependent on the number of gangs in catacombs.
1 gang = 100% income
2 gangs = 80% income (since the first gang took part of the loot before gang two got there)
3 gangs = 60% income (look above nut two gangs before)
4 gangs = 40% income

that should make the overpowered income look more balanced.

to clarify the income from looting: if one gang = 100 % of loot
if two gangs 80 % of total loot
and so on
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 16, 2009, 02:49:36 AM
Another possibility would be to have something follow the goons back from that catacombs. 

Maybe a party of dungeon crawlers from another dimension raid the brothel? You'd stand to lose more goons (from the squad(s) on guard duty) , loot (basic D&D mindset - grab the treasure) and possibly some of the girls in the dungeons.

Or maybe a particularly big monster backtracked the goon squad.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 16, 2009, 03:01:41 PM
Good ideas.  My feeling isn't that the rewards of the catacombs are too high (if anything, the opposite is true) - the problem is that the risk is too low, and compounding on that is the unbalanced nature of gangs in general.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Midnight_Amratha on November 16, 2009, 05:24:49 PM
i like the "it came from the desert" idea (read: it came from the catacombs) not all nice things may come from the catacombs, like a bug or a monster you need to combat, possibly a disease.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: sgb on November 16, 2009, 05:45:15 PM
I actually didn't have a major issue with gangs losing 5-6 members per trip, so long as the rewards justified it.  The problem was that recovering said 5-6 losses was taking 8+ turns, which was unacceptable downtime.  Now the risk/reward has swung full reverse thanks to healing potions being potions of immortality or something.  If they're going to continue being so effective, maybe up the catacomb rewards but limit searching to once a month or such.  Would make Catacomb Only items and girls more valued.

If you want steady income from gangs, the robbery options are supposed to cover that.  At the moment, nobody uses these unless a mission requires it.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: exodia91 on November 16, 2009, 05:51:47 PM
the thing is, gangs shouldn't really be used for income, it detracts from the main point of the game, the brothels. At most it should be supplemental cash. I would personally get rid of the theft jobs all together, and just allow gangs to get limited gold from rival raids and catacombs, but only in limited quantities. put a cap on the gold that can be earned from catacombs, at like 2k per week.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 16, 2009, 07:03:32 PM
Actually, now that there have been a couple item mods created, I think there's an argument to remove direct gold income from catacombs altogether.  Just let them give you girls and unique items.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Bloodly on November 17, 2009, 04:21:16 PM
Screw that.  Catacombs is one of the only neutral gold supplies there is.  Remove it, fine, but ensure there's something else; something NEUTRAL, before talking of removal.  Strip Bar's low, Gambling Bar's too late, and the brothel itself tends to be flaky as hell in terms of income(and that depends if you want to run a 'brothel' sort of business to begin with).  It's fine for an evil playthrough as they can set up new buildings, but you'll never have enough customers for a single building even with the standard 20 room, let alone expansion.

WHy should I seek Petty Theft and Grand Theft-why should they and Extortion be the only ways for supplementary income?  Can't I run a decently classy joint, like Stringfellow's in Soho Square?  Why must all the options destroy your rep?  Actually, that's as much a flaw with the Rep system as anything else.  There's nothing you can directly do to raise it, and practically everything lowers it.

I'd prefer a split option.  Catacombs-Girls, Catacombs-Items, Catacombs-Treasure.  Lower the rates of success, but control what you get out as you wish.  Could allow a few more missions that don't involves getting new businesses.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: delta224 on November 17, 2009, 04:31:53 PM
Keep in mind that the building update may make this a moot point. So let us wait until that comes out, then figure out how to balance the catacombs.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Command on November 17, 2009, 07:50:43 PM
Here's an idea for a balance for the catecomes and to have it possible for gang members to die even with potions.
 
Have it so that Every gang member has a certain number of potions they can use then factor a health for each character added to any defence or offence capabilities they have been augmented with.  The Magic capabilities and intelligance also would factor in as well. 
 
Or you could have a type of ambush creature lurking in the catecomes that your gangs has a 1 in 10 chance of having one of the members killed by the creature.  It could be known as a Stalker.  A very deadly and ellusive creature.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 17, 2009, 08:37:39 PM
Good point, d.  At the very least, the building update will probably give more options for neutral or good income streams.  I doubt, though, that it will be the magic pill to solve all the game's balance problems...  not that you guys aren't very capable, but balancing by its very nature takes time and playtesters.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Fstop on November 19, 2009, 07:00:50 PM
I think it would be easier to just make guards semi-permanent as in once you buy them you have to keep them until you cant afford to pay there wages then they leave on there own (should also make them be able to take money outta your bank and/our cause trouble for you if you refuse to pay and/or sue) that mix that in with higher death rate or something so that if they end up crippled you cant just fire them and buy a new squad (note Im imagining the guard as a single big company that just sends guard you're way)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Midnight_Amratha on November 20, 2009, 02:39:25 AM
at the risk of being a bastard i think we need to keep focus on the programming credo: KISS
Keep
It
Simple
S*****
meaning tossing convoluted solutions into the program will cause computing time and slow down the game. i'm all for a nice interesting game but not at the cost of too much lag.
what kind of simple solution can stand for your ideas, use the context and plant text messages to give some explanation but don't let the nitty-gritty grow into the programming.
i know i'm not making much sense but think over the ideas i give and ignore my being a not-nice guy, thanks.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: sgb on November 21, 2009, 12:14:11 AM
Something brought up in one of the item mod threads: the chance of getting a unique catacomb only item is incredibly low.  Granted, it's not hard late game to simply have multiple gangs do nothing but run the catacombs endlessly; but if the catacombs become more dangerous again, then the % chance of a unique item or unique monster girl should be taken into consideration.  Maybe even let this be set per item in the items file, so players can balance powerful items with rarity level.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Jacko on November 21, 2009, 07:33:40 AM
Actually when I first played I thought you could send the girls into the catacombs because of their combat stat. Maybe in future release.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 21, 2009, 11:49:22 AM
Doubtful, actually.  necno originally planned to make this game something akin to a dungeon crawler, but - rather obviously - that changed.  So far as I know, there are no plans to institute that anymore.  Combat stats will likely remain [mostly] useless, with the possible exception of special missions/jobs or special events.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Fstop on November 21, 2009, 11:58:38 AM
I say we should make a gladiator coliseum and have the fight for my amusement or a Jello/Pudding Wrestling cage of something to make it [partly] useful (can probably be use to also attract customers)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 21, 2009, 02:11:32 PM
I say we should make a gladiator coliseum and have the fight for my amusement or a Jello/Pudding Wrestling cage of something to make it [partly] useful (can probably be use to also attract customers)

I find that idea oddly appealing... :)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 21, 2009, 07:09:38 PM
Does anyone even *read* the ToDo file besides me?  An arena is already planned...  I should know, because I'm fairly certain I was the first one to suggest it back on the old forum.  There's a whole laundry list of buildings there, with probably jobs for each.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 21, 2009, 07:23:50 PM
I know, I know. I was thinking more of the jello aspects of it, if you must know.

Also of having open challenge nights, as in Stripes, where the girls take on challengers from the public.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Command on November 21, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
Does anyone even *read* the ToDo file besides me?  An arena is already planned...  I should know, because I'm fairly certain I was the first one to suggest it back on the old forum.  There's a whole laundry list of buildings there, with probably jobs for each.

It's probably because some people don't notice it at fist because their not very interested in looking thorugh the entire forum.  Likely because they don't think their is enough time.
 
It's also likely some people that make these suggestions can't remember everything that is listed.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Fstop on November 21, 2009, 09:27:58 PM
I've read the todo the first time it came out but dont remember anything except that theres a REAL long trait list
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 21, 2009, 10:46:57 PM
It's pretty long, yeah, but that's because almost all of it is repeated - plus, a whole bunch of them are related to dungeon-crawling stuff IMO, and thus probably won't end up in the game.  After that list, though, there is a lot of other information.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: LordShame on November 21, 2009, 11:06:37 PM
Wait. Sometimes I see girls that get assaulted but manage to fight off their agressor, and I figured it was on account of high combat skill. Is it totally random?

Something brought up in one of the item mod threads: the chance of getting a unique catacomb only item is incredibly low.  Granted, it's not hard late game to simply have multiple gangs do nothing but run the catacombs endlessly; but if the catacombs become more dangerous again, then the % chance of a unique item or unique monster girl should be taken into consideration.  Maybe even let this be set per item in the items file, so players can balance powerful items with rarity level.

A rarity % setting would be keen, but even just a way to differentiate between an item that isn't super rare but can only be found in the catacombs and an item that's meant to be hard to find would be a major improvement.

In addition, maybe a gang with high intelligence could have improved chances of finding rare stuff, since they would be better at spotting secret passages and hidden treasures.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Mehzerz on November 22, 2009, 05:57:30 AM
I don't know anything about coding, and this probably isn't completely relevant to the topic at hand but...
as far as items go. Would it be possible to set items rarity in a list formation? Say items go from 1 to 1,000, 1 being the rarest while 1,000 being the most common. Or maybe since the items are already in categories have their categories with their own list of rarity. You could even add the number of rarity on the items description. (Like the Disgaea games now that I think about it) I suppose the problem here would be modded items being added. But as it stands there doesn't seem to be a rarity system.
I guess it's rarity could go off it's price. Since the auto pricing system made items with better functions more expensive it makes sense that rarity could be based off this as well. It could even go along with not only the catacombs but it's chances of being in the store as well.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 22, 2009, 06:45:31 AM
Would it be possible to set items rarity in a list formation? Say items go from 1 to 1,000, 1 being the rarest while 1,000 being the most common.

I could certainly give items a weighting to control the relative chance of them being found in any particular place. I'd like to separate chance of discovery from location as well. Something like this:
Code: [Select]
        <item   name    = 'Nipple Rings'
                desc    = 'Gold rings pierced into a girls breast.'
                type    = 'Necklace'
                badness = '20'
                special = 'None'
                cost    = '100'
                rarity  = 'Shop25'
                infinite= 'false'
        >
                 <location
                       where = "shop"
                        chance = "25"
                 >
                 <location
                       where = "catacombs"
                        chance = "5"
                 >

                <effect what    = 'Stat'
                        name = 'Charisma'
                        amount = '5'
                />
                <effect what    = 'Stat'
                        name = 'Libido'
                        amount = '5'
                />
                <effect what    = 'Stat'
                        name = 'Spirit'
                        amount = '-5'
                />
        </item>

So that'd give you an item that was found more often in the market, but also cropped up in the catacomb from time to time.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 22, 2009, 11:51:57 AM
Question:  would this make all the old items be obsolete?  I assume yes.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 22, 2009, 12:26:22 PM
Question:  would this make all the old items be obsolete?  I assume yes.

Which? The XML format or the expanded location/rarity scheme.

The XML will be in the next release. The way it's going to work is that the new files have an "x" on the end, like MS did with their new MS Office XML formats. Only instead of .docx, we're going to have .itemsx, .girlsx and .rgirlsx.

When the game loads, it will load both formats. Which is to say, it will load any .itemsx, .girlsx and .rgirlsx file it finds. Once it's done that, it will load any old format files unless it already loaded the XML version of the same file. So we have backwards compatibility. Also, Solo's editor will allow you to convert existing files to the new formats.

For the expanded rarity scheme, I haven't nailed down the details yet, but I expect I could make that work much the same way. If there are location tags in the file, the game will use them. If not, it'll go by the rarity attribute, the same as it does at the moment.

So either way, the answer is probably "no" :)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: letmein on November 22, 2009, 02:11:59 PM
Well, I was just thinking that a radical change in item functionality might force a new, incompatible .item file.
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 22, 2009, 02:25:59 PM
That's one of the cool things about using XML: you can add in new stuff without necessarily breaking the old files :)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Mehzerz on November 22, 2009, 02:35:39 PM
Sounds pretty nice Doc! Lookin' forward to it.

Is it possible to have one of the gangs stats to increase the chances of finding rare items over common ones? I don't think any of their stats alter that but it would be nice.
It seems that gangs were bringing back common items far too commonly. Either that or super common items should be removed. But then I suppose that's why the game is moddable. :p
I think as far as store items go in the catacombs I'd just make them rare finds. Super powerful items would be rarer than that, and mid to powerful items would be more common. This is all assuming the catacombs difficulty increases and gangs don't come out unscathed. :p
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 22, 2009, 02:43:15 PM
Sounds pretty nice Doc! Lookin' forward to it.

Is it possible to have one of the gangs stats to increase the chances of finding rare items over common ones? I don't think any of their stats alter that but it would be nice.
It seems that gangs were bringing back common items far too commonly.

Agree with that. Intelligence might be a good modifier: A smart gang leader will see no sense in hauling a plain dress or a pair of scruffy boots back through all that danger.  Stupid ones will grab the first item they see and high tail it back.

Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: Fstop on November 22, 2009, 02:50:58 PM
It would be great if instead of items or girl you could occasionally get a monster as a gang member (mush like how your sons are going to join the gangs)
Title: Re: balancing catacombs
Post by: DocClox on November 23, 2009, 09:15:13 AM
It's an interesting idea. I think I need to see how necno is handling the sons-as-gang-leaders idea before I can say much more than that.