Slaves vs. Free Girls

[sgb]

I sometimes forget that not everyone enslaves everything in sight.    Certainly, free girls would want paying. 

Which is probably a good sign that the whole free vs. slave balance needs to looked at in the near future.  Wasn't Necro planning on some sort of 'license fee' or such for enslaving girls at some point?

[DocClox]

Which is probably a good sign that the whole free vs. slave balance needs to looked at in the near future.  Wasn't Necro planning on some sort of 'license fee' or such for enslaving girls at some point?

I remember the discussion. Didn't it evoke howls of protest from people who thought that slavegirls were underpowered?

Really, I don't see why a well-managed slavegirl shouldn't be more efficient than a free girl. What should probably happen is that slaves get unhappy more easily than their free counterparts, and need more management. To an extent that happens already when the free girls go shopping. Maybe we need to give that a bit more emphasis.

[pnakasone]

  The main question is what is the status  of women in society of crossroads? We know a father can sell his  daughter into slavery. So what rights does a free girl have that a  slave does not?   
As odd as it may sound a slave girl who  has no choice being a whore may be treated socially better then a  free girl doing the same after all a free girl can get married and  work at the husbands business or keep house.

[Shinteo]

If you ask me, Crossroad seems to be more of a slave market town then anything else. And a very dangerous one too, to females. There seems to be slaver gangs running all over the place, kiddnapping and enslaving anyone they can find at will, and the police there don't really seems interested in keeping order. And you have a whole banch of different gangs running around in a huge gang fight that doesn't seems to have much impact on the city itself. I have had gangs wiping themselves out without me even doing anything...

It seems to me to be a place where no sane girl would want to visit, less they risk getting enslaved themselves. Most of the girls seen there are either of the poor people, or random girls popping up due to the dimentional distortion...

[sgb]

I remember the discussion. Didn't it evoke howls of protest from people who thought that slavegirls were underpowered?

Really, I don't see why a well-managed slavegirl shouldn't be more efficient than a free girl. What should probably happen is that slaves get unhappy more easily than their free counterparts, and need more management. To an extent that happens already when the free girls go shopping. Maybe we need to give that a bit more emphasis.

Back then they were underpowered.  If I recall, free girls made vastly more money whoring than slaves and rebelliousness was much easier to control, so enslaving them actually downgraded them.  I definitely agree the income potential isn't the place to balance things, as there should be no reason why a slave can't do their job just as good.  In fact, they probably should do their jobs BETTER since keeping their masters happy is probably their only ticket to freedom.  Edit: Happiness hits are an annoying way to balance things, disregard what I said previously.

I suppose the whole problem is the whether you think that WM was meant to be about a brothel full of slaves or running a business (or both).  Again, the whole expansion on the job system in 1.30 seems to suggest it's about the business.  You can still be a slaver, torturing people, demanding daughters from customers, kidnapping, and generally just being a jerk.  But I think the general consensus is that people want a 'good' way to run things as well, which means free girls need advantages over slaves.  Right now, there are none at all beyond the chance a girl attacks one of your gangs before she gets branded.

[Mehzerz]

Happiness hits could work out.  Slaves don't get paid, so instead you'd have to keep rewarding them with items to keep their happiness up.  It's more tedious than simply giving them a cut of the brothel pay, so the benefits they have over free girls would be fair.

That sounds like it could be really... really annoying. That sounds about how it'd be logically, but from a gameplay aspect it'd be incredibly tedious and not fun at all. If there was some less annoying way to keep girls happy rather than talking to them and buying them gifts that'd be fine. But as it is now, forget about it.


I agree there needs to be more incentive to choose one over the other, but I don't think that's the way to go about it. Personally, I like that there's jobs only free girls can do. So I figure there should be jobs only slaves can do. (Unless there is already) I would assume (unless you seriously break them) slaves would be more rebellious than free girls. They'd be more likely to steal, possibly injure customers or guards. Where as free girls may be more against sex working. I guess that's where a "slutty" trait could come in if need be. They'd also more than likely be against particular sex acts as well.

[sgb]

On second thought, yeah that's a really stupid suggestion.

Job restrictions don't really make sense.  Why couldn't I order a slave to promote the brothel or serve drinks?  And the current system where slaves are less rebellious makes more sense IMO.  Slaves would certainly be less happy, but I don't seem them refusing to work often, in fear of being sent back to the dungeon.  A free girl on the other hand would feel far more inclined to skip work if they don't like you or the work.

What about suspicion?  Having more than, say 5, slaves would start to cause massive suspicion increases leading to more police raids on you.  Eventually you'd have to decide to either suck up the losses from this, or start freeing some of the slaves.

[pnakasone]

  I think what needs to be done is to  balance the sides their should be a clear set of differences between  a slave girl and a free girl.
Do free girls pay any bills or do they  keep all the money? They should be paying out of their out of their  own pocket their own support costs and the player would pay nothing.  They can set the level of accommodations  they want. But the higher  the choice is the higher their rent should be. They can refuse to do  certain jobs and or acts. But if they do not work they do not get  paid and still have to pay their bills. Unless they are caught  cheating the player or getting highly in to debt the most that can be  done is to fire them. Player really does not need to worry a bought  their happiness it is their choice to work or not.       
Slave girls should cost more money and  be rarer. Support cost should be higher after all these girls are an  investment. Their should be more rewards and punishments available to  the player. Slave girls are allowed to by freedom. Slave girls can  refuse jobs or acts but can be punished. Here are some ideas I had.
Rewards
Keeps tips
Gifts
Gifts of Money
Better accommodations
Exemptions from acts or jobs
Declare Holiday Party  (group reward)
Freedom   

 
Punishments
Not allowed tips
Take away gifts
Take away money
Lower accommodations
Forced to do some acts or jobs.   
A beating
Dungeon

 
Rewards and punishments should have  effects on more then just the girl directly targeted. If the player  rewards and punishes correctly they will have a bigger effect on the  group then individually.  I think that if a slave girls gets her  freedom it should big deal with a positive effect on their slave  sisters as they will see if they work hard they can get their freedom  too.   

[DocClox]

Back then they were underpowered.  If I recall, free girls made vastly more money whoring than slaves and rebelliousness was much easier to control, so enslaving them actually downgraded them.

I think there's an element of "the other man's grass is always greener" that applies as well.  People tend to think that their preferred play style is underpowered compared to the alternative.

Of course, both styles must still be playable. But I don't see that they need to be precisely balanced. It's not like we're doing this competitively.

Edit: Happiness hits are an annoying way to balance things, disregard what I said previously.

Hmmm... don't think happiness hits. Think maybe a small bonus for free girls. And maybe existing negative modifiers hit slaves a little bit harder, so that once they get upset, it takes a little more attention to cheer them up.

  I suppose the whole problem is the whether you think that WM was meant to be about a brothel full of slaves or running a business (or both). 

Well, the original conception was (IIRC) SlaveMaker crossed with SimGangster. So it's always been basically a crime sim, which is one reason it's quite hard to support a nice-guy route. The amoral aspect of the game was built in from the start, and there's still a lot of stuff that assumes the player is a bit of a hardcase.

But fundamentally, it's about being a sim. Consider the SimCity games.  They aren't about investing in renewable energy sources, or creating really nice parks.  You can play them that way, but you can also create distopian hellholes, or maximise pollution because you enjoy the clean up job after Godzilla trashes the place. They're all valid options.

Similarly, I don't think WM is about owing slaves, or running a business, or carving out a criminal empire. It's definitely about setting up a sex-industry empire in a generic-but-sleazy fantasy city. Beyond that though, there are a lot of things it ought to be able to encompass

But I think the general consensus is that people want a 'good' way to run things as well, which means free girls need advantages over slaves. 

Why? Not why should there be a "good" path, I accept that. Rather why do free girls need advantages over slaves? Why can't it be enough to know that you're doing the right thing in a world awash with temptations? Doesn't your "goodness" mean more if you're actually giving up certain advantages in order to maintain it?

  Right now, there are none at all beyond the chance a girl attacks one of your gangs before she gets branded.

Job restrictions don't really make sense.  Why couldn't I order a slave to promote the brothel or serve drinks? 

I agree with you here. Why shouldn't I have a slave to act as matron? Or torturer for that matter. On the other hand, I can imagine that free women on average might be more efficient for some jobs. It's something we should look at.

What about suspicion?  Having more than, say 5, slaves would start to cause massive suspicion increases leading to more police raids on you.  Eventually you'd have to decide to either suck up the losses from this, or start freeing some of the slaves.

I assume the extra suspicion still gets canceled out by bribes at they mayor's office? If so, then you're basically talking about upping the bribery rate needed by slaveowners. That's a bit tough to justify in a city that has an openly operating slave market, but it's workable as a mechanic as long as the penalties aren't too "massive".

Continual, non-bribable raids however would quickly make the game unplayable for those of us who like pretending to be bad lads, so I'm not so keen on that.

Do free girls pay any bills or do they  keep all the money?

Currently room and board is part of the employment package.

  But if they do not work they do not get  paid and still have to pay their bills. Unless they are caught  cheating the player or getting highly in to debt the most that can be  done is to fire them. Player really does not need to worry a bought  their happiness it is their choice to work or not.

All very free-market libertarian, but the game tends to assume conventional employment models. The PC is the Boss, and he gets to boss the floozies around. Restructuring to support an arrangement where the PC was basically the landlord would take quite a bit of work, and if all we're after is game balance, I'm not sure there aren't better ways to achieve that.

Slave girls can  refuse jobs or acts but can be punished. Here are some ideas I had.

...

Rewards and punishments should have  effects on more then just the girl directly targeted.

Yeah, I'd like to see more along the AI/ALife aspects of the game, and from past comments, so would necno. On the other hand, it's hard to do well and to keep balanced. It's a lot of work, too, since you tend to get swamped in lots and lots of decision trees and the complexity increases non-linearly as you increase the the number of factors under consideration.

[LordShame]

Of course, both styles must still be playable. But I don't see that they need to be precisely balanced. It's not like we're doing this competitively.

(...)

Why? Not why should there be a "good" path, I accept that. Rather why do free girls need advantages over slaves? Why can't it be enough to know that you're doing the right thing in a world awash with temptations? Doesn't your "goodness" mean more if you're actually giving up certain advantages in order to maintain it?

I completely agree with this. Personally I most often favor the good guy approach (though I do indulge in being a complete monster every once in a while), and I don't have even a little bit of a problem with the game being just plain harder if you play nice. In fact, the prospect of making both "paths" into rough equivalents with near-identical difficulty sounds kinda boring to me.

[sgb]

Oh, I agree the game overall requires the player to be at least somewhat bad, as using your gangs is mandatory to eventually win.  Which is perfectly fine, as the law enforcement in Crossgate is not supposed to be a major force, so you need to take matters into your own hands and start cracking some skulls to ruin your rivals.  It's more of a matter of how you're treating your girls.  If there's no benefit to being nice, why even have the free girls?  Why not just have them instantly become slaves once they join you?  Don't get me wrong, it's a not a complaint; I'm just saying.  If the game has choices, then the choices need to be more than a self-imposed difficultly increase.  Certainly one choice can be easier than the other, but there needs to be SOME benefit to being nice.  Right now, there's no reason at all not to enslave every single girl you get right away, and I don't think this was the intention of the 'Brand' option.

I assume the extra suspicion still gets canceled out by bribes at they   mayor's office? If so, then you're basically talking about upping the   bribery rate needed by slaveowners. That's a bit tough to justify in a   city that has an openly operating slave market, but it's workable as a   mechanic as long as the penalties aren't too "massive".

Continual,   non-bribable raids however would quickly make the game unplayable for   those of us who like pretending to be bad lads, so I'm not so keen on   that.

Yeah, that's was what I meant.  It would work out best if the penelties start of very low, but start double or tripling once certain thresholds are hit.  Asspulling some numbers, lets say every 5 slaves generates 1 point of suspicion until you hit 20, then every 3 slaves after that generates a point until you hit 40, then every 2 after that, etc.  It isn't 'special' suspicion, you'd just be generating more suspicion than if you had all free girls.  The law enforcement in Crossgate is weak and corrupt, but they're not going to turn a blind eye to a huge slaving operation forever without getting their cut.  This seems the fairest way to balance things out without drastically changing anything.  Slaves earn you more and refuse work less, but you have to allocate more bribery money over the course of the game.  In essence, it's kind of like a slavery tax but you can still have a modest amount of slaves without triggering too much heat.  If you go overboard, then you have to start sharing the wealth.

[DocClox]

If the game has choices, then the choices need to be more than a self-imposed difficultly increase.  Certainly one choice can be easier than the other, but there needs to be SOME benefit to being nice. 

The thing is, unless the two options are precisely balanced then there's always going to be one side claiming there's no benefit to doing X, purely because it is less efficient than the alternative. My worry is that since game balance is fairly subjective, the only way to make folks happy would be to make the free girls approach noticeably more efficient than using  slaves. By which point of course, the slaver faction is up in arms, and we're no further forward.

In essence, it's kind of like a slavery tax but you can still have a modest amount of slaves without triggering too much heat.  If you go overboard, then you have to start sharing the wealth.

I think on balance, I'd be a lot more receptive to ideas that found advantages to having free girls, rather than penalising the slave owners. When people start talking about applying massive penalties to slave owners, I always worry that there's an element of political correctness creeping into the discussion, and that the aim is not so much game balance as social engineering. Now I don't want to suggest for a second that this is your motivation in this discussion, but all the same, I'd be happier with suggestions that enhance the free side of things. We have a murky, morally ambiguous game here with strong BDSM themes, and personally, I'd like to keep it that way

Now, with that said, I spent a few hours last night playing as a Nice Guy and have a few observations.

• Running a (if you'll pardon the term) Free House is certainly harder than I'd like in comparison to a slave brothel.
• Addiction is a pain for free girls. They get unhappy, and then they walk out, and all this while you're waiting to have both the money and the opportunity to buy a cure. I think making addiction cures cheaper and more frequently available would take a lot of the pain away.
• It's quite difficult to get a Free House started. Between the girl's increased reluctance to perform, and the natural difficulties of getting established, getting a stable business can be challenging. I think I'd like free girls to have a bit more pulling power than slaves. Maybe one extra customer a shift compared to their enslaved sisters to reflect the fact that poorly trained slaves are not as much fun in the sack as girls that are doing the deed by choice.
• I still think there's scope for free girls to be more resistant to depression than slavegirls.

And I think that would probably do it.  It's still going to be a bit less financially efficient to use free girls, you'll still make more money with slaves, and some of your girls will still need a bit more coaxing before they're happy dropping their knickers. But it shouldn't feel like playing on a whole different difficulty setting.

[Mehzerz]

Now, with that said, I spent a few hours last night playing as a Nice Guy and have a few observations.

• Running a (if you'll pardon the term) Free House is certainly harder than I'd like in comparison to a slave brothel.
• Addiction is a pain for free girls. They get unhappy, and then they walk out, and all this while you're waiting to have both the money and the opportunity to buy a cure. I think making addiction cures cheaper and more frequently available would take a lot of the pain away.
• It's quite difficult to get a Free House started. Between the girl's increased reluctance to perform, and the natural difficulties of getting established, getting a stable business can be challenging. I think I'd like free girls to have a bit more pulling power than slaves. Maybe one extra customer a shift compared to their enslaved sisters to reflect the fact that poorly trained slaves are not as much fun in the sack as girls that are doing the deed by choice.
• I still think there's scope for free girls to be more resistant to depression than slavegirls.

And I think that would probably do it.  It's still going to be a bit less financially efficient to use free girls, you'll still make more money with slaves, and some of your girls will still need a bit more coaxing before they're happy dropping their knickers. But it shouldn't feel like playing on a whole different difficulty setting.

Hrm... sounds fair to me.

[exodia91]

Hmmm... an idea, instead of having a slave tax or something, how about only being able to safely enslave someone when they're in debt to you? If you force a slave tattoo on them when they're not in your debt, make it a massive suspicion/hate/unhappiness spike and hate/unhappiness that will only slowly drop over time and can't be gifted down, I mean you did just ENSLAVE HER AGAINT HER WILL after all . Of course in the game its currently impossible to make a girl in your debt so some gameplay mechanics would have to be added. Girls having to pay for room and board, and there would have to be ways to get her in debt to you, say maybe getting her addicted to something and her going into your debt from getting her drugs, or alternatively, giving a girl an expensive cure to make her in your debt. You could also have an option to ask her to voluntarily become a slave, but it will only work with very high love and obedience, and low rebel, spirit etc. Having to plan how you're actually going to turn this 5 star girl into your slave could add a fun aspect to the game, I think. And making an easy way to hire free girls legally would have to be added though, a chance to get one a day from a walk ain't enough, we really need to be able to start out our business hiring free girls on day 1.

[Samu]

I think enslaving girls should have a greater effect on suspicion, currenlty i enslaved everyone an still managed to get the "town hero" status wothout needing to lift a finger.