[IMBA]lance

[DocClox]

It's a point, I suppose. So long as we're small it won't matter too much, and a lot of the IP holders won't care if their art gets used in a fan game. But if we get big enough, we can expect trouble sooner or later.

Tht said, I wouldn't have expected anything that can't be fixed by removing art from the base package. But yeah, it would be nice to have some art with the IP assigned to the project under a CC licence or similar.

[Lorde]

Necno Made moves towards this for future projects, why not find an "Official" WM artist. Least for the base stuff. Anything fans add or replace later you can just throw up your hands and say "Not our fault".

[killjoy57us]

Interesting thing about Intellectual Property rights on images...they're usually terribly easy to get around.

By the time you crop the picture, dodge/burn, adjust color, and apply a photoshop type filter, it pretty much becomes yours.

And besides; as long as no one is charging for girl packs, the stuff was published into the public eye, and you can make the case that WM is just an interactive picture viewer.

[d31r3x]

Are you sure that  cropping / changing hair colour / adding a sword will get around the IP issue?

I did that extensively while on "my fellows and me indie tabletop RPG publishing adventure" and every single potential publisher cowered and run when we mentioned the "modified pictures" thing.

I guess it depends on image modification degree (where's the point when the base picture is so changed by your creative hands that the 'child' becomes yours and not the original picture artist's?), and -of course- one's particular country intellectual property laws.

That said, I like your "interactive picture viewer" point of view very much.

[Lorde]

I don't think modding images will get you off scot free.

That rat bastard Itagaki was able to sue ninja hackers (Site devoted to modding DOA games on the X-Box) simply because they where using his IP in a way he didn't want. Which is the ultimate problem. Not so much doing something illegal, but getting sued by a company that believes you are doing something illegal and not having money  to defend yourself. Doesn't matter if what they are saying is actually the law, Lawyers can just go for attrition over legality to get what their company|client wants.

Don't think this project would bring down that sorta heat. But it is something to consider.

[killjoy57us]

Let me be perfectly clear. You HAVE to modify the ENTIRE IMAGE, in a UNIQUE FASHION. The important part is the Photoshop-type filter; applied properly, you now immediately have your own work, and your own Intellectual Property.

To be sure, this isn't easy; you've now taken your hot hentai-demon-cat-girl-whatever and hit it with Paint Daubs or Palette Knife, and it tends to lose that anime quality that so many artists strive for. But if you had to, well, there it is; an option, if you will.

[DocClox]

Of course, in a great many cases they could still shut us down for abusing their trade marks, which isn't something you can get around with a photoshop filter.

The best approach is to do what necno's been calling for: separate the game from the art entirely. Maybe include some original art if anyone feels like contributing to the game in that way. Then have separately hosted girl packs that people can download. If a girlpack gets a C&D or a DMCA takedown, it then doesn't affect the game itself, and we can always remove the contested images.

[Lorde]

Let me be perfectly clear. You HAVE to modify the ENTIRE IMAGE, in a UNIQUE FASHION. The important part is the Photoshop-type filter; applied properly, you now immediately have your own work, and your own Intellectual Property.

To be sure, this isn't easy; you've now taken your hot hentai-demon-cat-girl-whatever and hit it with Paint Daubs or Palette Knife, and it tends to lose that anime quality that so many artists strive for. But if you had to, well, there it is; an option, if you will.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm sure it would be perfectly legal. But when has that stopped corporate goons from doing anything? And if some corporation or someone with deep pockets decides you stole there IP. Whether right or wrong, they have the money to go the distance in court. And if some of the drama that goes on on Deviant Art is any indication. People will know you altered their work from the sheer amount of altered work you have.

You are right though. It is an option. And as long as this game stays free, it will probably remain an option. And considering the content of the game, I don't think it will ever get big enough that it will attract the sorta attention my posts are talking about. Just wanted to throw it out there as a "This is the worst case scenario" blurb. Something to consider going forward.

[d31r3x]

Some day, a white haired (and white bearded) old white man, dressed in a white gown, with a golden triangle glowing behind (and slightly above) his head will sue Picasso for copying reality. Picasso will argue he did extensive modifications in a fashion that he called 'cubism', but God's jewish lawyers (lol) will shred his feeble defense, turn his own argument against him, and force poor Picasso to sign an agreement by wich 'cubism' becomes a trademark of God's Creation and renounces to any rights he would had over it.

[killjoy57us]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm sure it would be perfectly legal. But when has that stopped corporate goons from doing anything? And if some corporation or someone with deep pockets decides you stole there IP. Whether right or wrong, they have the money to go the distance in court. And if some of the drama that goes on on Deviant Art is any indication. People will know you altered their work from the sheer amount of altered work you have.

It's a problem. Especially in arts and sciences, and especially right now. We do live in an increasingly litigious society. Regardless of my high handed "f*ck the man" tomfoolery, the best answer is to let things go as they are now. Fall back on the game being a picture viewer, but if there is a complaint, we really don't have any choice but to pull the content.

On that note, it needs to be pointed out to anyone putting together girl packs that they need to carefully read the terms of use for whatever their sources are. Some are going to be more restrictive than others. They might also want to brush up on "fair use" law, or whatever they might have in their respective countries.

[Lorde]

That last post from Killjoy got me thinking. So here is a quick run down of Who will have a Litigation fit for pic packs. Anyone should feel free to add more since this is definitely not a comprehensive list.

With the exception of Linda Project, I don't think I have ever heard of a Japanese artist or Circle suing or even asking for the removal of there artwork from a NA site. As a matter of fact, there is a general feeling of "There gonna steal it anyway so why bother" And "I can't be bothered with another language" amongst the JP art community. So using images from those artists isn't gonna get people in trouble.

There are also sources from hentai foundry, random artist sites as well as a few pay sites here in North America | Europe. Amongst these,  Hentai key is the only one who bitches about there IP. (Zone doesn't seem to care though.) Jiggle Girls is surprisingly mum on the subject. And everyone else seems to so far ignore there images ending up on sites like rule 34, e-hentai or danbooru. 

As far as real porn star or actress images are concerned, I'm not really sure. For Porn stars, I think as long as it's part of there preview set, they don't care. (Stuff you can find on  freeones.com). For actresses however, you are dealing with whatever news agency is taking the pictures. Though, with so many of these images ending up on blogs, I really don't see how they can start suing people now. 

[LordShame]

With the exception of Linda Project, I don't think I have ever heard of a Japanese artist or Circle suing or even asking for the removal of there artwork from a NA site.

A few years back I was managing an image gallery for a friend's videogame website; not a major thing, kind of a shrine/fansite on geocities  for a relatively obscure series. A few times I got e-mails from Japanese artists who politely requested that I take down some images of theirs that found their way in there. (I did, of course.) So it must happen every once in a while, even for small fish.

[Lorde]

How long ago was this? I know their current reaction is a "Hands thrown up in air and give up" reaction. Though it wasn't always like this. Hongfire is still reeling from a few cease and desists they got back in the day. (Dl site is quick to send them out still for their artists and Getchu has blocked people from coming to their site from Hongfire.) But, with the aforementioned exception of Linda Project, I haven't heard of anything recently. Which is probably what I should have said in the first place. Recently.  (As in past 2-3 years)

[LordShame]

That was maybe 6 years ago, so yeah, maybe something's changed since then. That said, I'd be surprised if it really never happened anymore; it's not like there's a Japanese artist's guild that dictates how everyone should handle unauthorized foreign use. I'm thinking it might be the language barrier thing. The few times I got mails like that, they were in perfectly legible English, clearly written by a non-native speaker but still better than much of what passes for textual communication these days. So they might have been exceptions. Maybe there just aren't that many artists who both a)care about foreign use of their art and b)are confident enough about their English to actually contact the webmasters.

[DocClox]

Hijacking? )) I didn't even now that you talking about it...
I'm currently playing in it... And this city of CrossGates remind me exactly of Sigil... But instead of gang, there should be fra(x)ctions ))

And somehow, I just bet you play a Xaosite