Rebelliousness and refusing to work

[sgb]

I know there's a lot of complains that the game is already too easy, but this one just bothers me conceptually.  Basically it doesn't make a whole lot of sense the girls would refuse to do most jobs.  It doesn't really make sense for slaves OR free girls.

Slaves techincally shouldn't be able to refuse ANYTHING.  I don't know exactly how slaves work in the world of Whoremaster, but I'm assuming the master has some sort of magical means to control the slave.  Otherwise they'd just try to escape on a regular basis.  Now it makes sense the slave may not WANT to do something, but in this case wouldn't a happiness and health (assuming the master has to discipline the slave to get her to cooperate) drop make more sense then the slave not performing the task?

With free girls it actually makes even less sense.  These girls were hired legitimately, and want to work.  During the hiring process you'd HAVE to let it be known at some point that you run a brothel.  Unless they are stupid, they would know what kind of 'work' that's going to be required of them.  Yet ask them to do the job they were hired for and...they simply refuse?!  This makes no sense; if someone went to their job in real life and refused to do any work, they'd be fired on the spot and they'd know it.  While it makes sense that the girl might refuse extreme fetish sex, it does not make any sense that they'd refuse to clean the bedding or serve drinks in the bar.

What if rebelliousness affected the girls willingness to agree to work for you at all?  ie if a rebellious girl came up on a walk, there would be a large chance she'd refuse to work at a brothel.  The only way to get these girls would be to resort to kidnapping.  This is something that would take a lot of work to overhaul and don't expect to be changed, but it's just something I wanted to throw out there.

[Lorde]

I always liked the idea of girls willing to work jobs like Waitress or Bartender but not really wanting to do the whore jobs. Makes breaking them all the more rewarding.

However, a Happy compromise could be that the girl refuses to see certain customers (random chance based on rebellion) or refuses to see more than X number of customers with high rebellion. That would actually be more realistic in my opinion. And It won't make a girl dead weight when she randomly decides to throw a hissy fit.

For other jobs, High rebellion means poor work and unhappy customers.

[Bluebeholder]

Slaves technically shouldn't be able to refuse ANYTHING. 

I dislike that this thought keeps coming up.  Slaves can refuse to act just like anyone else.  It's just the owner has more legal coercive options to encourage actions.  Being considered property in society doesn't change how people respond to onerous tasks other than the knowledge that the consequences may be more severe and the rewards less.  Simply they're in a situation with less carrot and more stick.  Perhaps another benefit for the gang job watching the girls job could be use of some of those more coercive options.  And really the WM is running a brothel where there's the option of taking and then using "free" mothers and their daughters as payment for debts indefinitely.  Is that not slavery irregardless of if they have a magic mark?

[sgb]

Thus why I suggested slaves take a hit to health and happiness instead.  Currently, a slave in WM can go up to her owner and declare she isn't going to do any work today.  There is no consequence to the slave for doing this.  That is what does not make sense in the equation.  The slave can certainly TRY to refuse of course; but rebelling in such a way should, at the very least, result in her automatically getting tossed in the dungeon and tortured.

And really the WM is running a brothel where there's the option of   taking and then using "free" mothers and their daughters as payment for   debts indefinitely.  Is that not slavery irregardless of if they have a   magic mark?

I always wondered why daughters given in 'payment' weren't automaticly assigned as slaves myself.  Daughters that are born by working slaves are set as slaves when they grow up even if the mother is free.  Just seems like a some minor oversights there.

[DocClox]

I find myself wondering if a better approach might not be to have unhappy and/or disobedient slaves operate at a reduced skill level - a sort of passive resistance; "I'm going to do as you say, but I'm not going to try very hard"

That way there's an advantage to having free girls in your employ, unless you're prepared to make sure your girls are well trained and happy.

[Bluebeholder]

I find myself wondering if a better approach might not be to have unhappy and/or disobedient slaves operate at a reduced skill level - a sort of passive resistance; "I'm going to do as you say, but I'm not going to try very hard"

That way there's an advantage to having free girls in your employ, unless you're prepared to make sure your girls are well trained and happy.

I like that approach, it's a much closer approximation of slave versus free labor.  Is there any chance that well also be able to return to using slaves in all the jobs then since the balance will be a productivity hit?

[DocClox]

Possibly. I'd like to find out who made the matron and torturer free-only and make sure they're ok with the change before I go and undo it.

A config option is always possible as well.

[sgb]

I find myself wondering if a better approach might not be to have   unhappy and/or disobedient slaves operate at a reduced skill level - a   sort of passive resistance; "I'm going to do as you say, but I'm not going to try very hard"

That   way there's an advantage to having free girls in your employ, unless   you're prepared to make sure your girls are well trained and happy.

That would probably work better, yes.


The matron being required to be free makes some sense actually.  She has a lot of power and authority within the organazation, so it makes sense the PC wouldn't want someone who possibly resents him or someone who would be extremely sympathetic to other slaves.  You would rather someone who is going to be as neutral as possible, or have the organizations best interests in mind when managing the girls.  I think this is the same line of thought with the torturer; The PC wouldn't want someone who would likely have reservations about whipping other slaves, knowing full well she could very easily end up on the receiving end on a whim from The Player.  Of course the PC could have picked her because she's a crazy sadist who doesn't care, but without a player personality the logic has to lean towards 'what's most likely', not extremes.

[pnakasone]

  You will always have a few girls who  will refuse to comply with their status as a slave in a brothel  regardless of the consequences. Of course these girls are made an  example of  in short order to keep the other girls in line.

[DocClox]

Which is the other thing the game should probably do: track disobedience on the part of the girls and have prompt discipline affect the obedience of the girls in the brothel (as well as the one being punished).

Maybe in WM2

[pnakasone]

  I do feel that there should have been a  great number of rewards and punishments that could have been handed  out to the girls. As well as the range being from minor to very big  in scale. At some point in the scale the rewards or punishments would  have been give in front of the other girls to influence their  mindset.

[ker]

I think different players want different amount of rebelliousness.  Some people want a pokemon sim, some people want a control sim.  Having levels of resistance being defined in a user-config file would be great!

[Ravensdark]

A way of having a hit on the girls for refusing to work could be done by making a hate type hit and a drop in love, then it mite also be a good idea to make it so that the sex jobs are much more likely to trigger it then say a cleaning job or a security job.  Also there could be some sort of job that effects how likely it is for a refusal to trigger, or that could be rolled into matron by making it so if you have a highly skilled matron with a high confidence and high combat and magic abilities it becomes much less likely for refusals to trigger.

[Dagoth]

Another thought, the game already tracks whether girls like or dislike doing different types of jobs. Currently all girls start off completely indifferent (not liking or disliking) all job types, which changes as they do the different jobs. I don't think their likes/dislikes currently affect whether they refuse to do different jobs, but it definitely should; I believe that was the original intention.
Further, I think it would be good for the girl definitions (in girlsx and rgirlsx files) to start them off already liking and disliking certain job types, so they have a better defined starting personality when the player gets them. I imagine many of the default unique girls would start out with at least a mild aversion to whoring.
A fighter girl might for instance start out enjoying combat and disliking whoring and cleaning.

[Lorde]

I like that idea a lot 

One thing I noticed about job likes and dislikes though. I've noticed that if a girl dislikes combat, for whatever reason, she gets constantly trounced in the catacombs. It could of course be that she dislikes combat because she is constantly trounced. But girls with similar stats and equip do much better in the catacombs and the only difference between the girls is that one doesn't like combat. So if this is the case, Job dislikes effects catacomb combat and may be a little broken.