devolution

Author Topic: Whore Master Patch  (Read 193653 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2012, 06:55:29 PM »
I suppose spirit and defiance are somewhat linked in general. But then you get the turn of phrase where a girl without a lot of energy is 'dispirited', and energetic girls are 'spirited', and that energy can be a good thing depending on the job you're doing.

LoL 'spirited' can have a very different meaning :)

Actually what you are talking about is mood and enthusiasm but that is not 'spirit', that's 'spirits'. I can be wrong in this as I am not a native English speaker but you cannot use Spirit in that form in the same way you cannot write at the end of a letter: 'I hope this finds you in best of you health and spirit.' You must write 'spirits' at the end or get an F.

Same here:
'To be in good spirits!'
'To act in good spirit!'

If you want to use it in your interpretation you'll have to change it to Spirits in code.
I remain of the opinion that:
 You can only use Spirit in sense of Soul/Ghost/Holy or kind of a Moral/Mental Strength/Conviction...
Like what we're doing?

Offline CeeBod

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2012, 08:23:38 PM »
You can only use Spirit in sense of Soul/Ghost/Holy or kind of a Moral/Mental Strength/Conviction...
Actually, according to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit?s=t  the word spirit as a noun has 25 different uses, 2 more as an adjective, 3 as a verb, and it also mentions 1 as an idiom!
 
In terms of the game, spirit seems to represent nerve / courage / chutzpah / spunk / independence / ...and stuff.  It takes guts to get up in front of a beery leery bunch of strangers and sing them a pitch-perfect song, so it's counted as a positive attribute for singing in the bar, which makes sense, but it's also a bad attribute in terms of being able to actually control the girl - everyone knows that Divas can be a pain in the backside to actually work with, and the music industry in particular is renowned for them!  So it nicely gives you a dilemma when you have a talented girl that spends half her time not working for you - do you try to break her spirit so you can actually get her to work when she's supposed to, or do you handle with kidgloves cos you're scared to risk impacting on the very thing that makes her talented?

So yeah spirit might not be the ideal word, but if you change it for one that's better then everyone that's ever made a GPAC is going to be kinda annoyed, and it's understandable enough I think - English has always been a bit flexible, with every word having a million different meanings, it's why we love our double entendres  :P
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:25:49 PM by CeeBod »

Offline drake

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2012, 08:29:55 PM »
Well, whatever you call spirit, confidence, etc. The issue remains, that the design of the game naturally lowers spirit, and to a lesser extent confidence, yet offers no way to increase spirit or confidence other than items.  Other stats like charisma, beauty, even constitution can be increased readily, if not slowly.  So as a result, girls will tend to get worse at jobs that require spirit and confidence over time. 
Now if you rework all the scripts, or fold in changes that others have made, neither of which is likely to be as simple as changing the jobs to slowly building up, it might work.  After all, how many barmaids/waitresses, singers, etc. will work a year, and be significantly worse (less customers) than they started, yet get paid more?
One of the benefits of having girls grow better at serving customers over time is that as the number of girls necessary to meet demand in one area reduces, you can shift some up into the higher tiers.
Of course, it IS your baby, so you have the perogative to do what you want, I certainly have never been able to keep momentum going long enough on modding the game to be post worthy, so kudos to you on that acheivement.

Offline Aika

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2012, 11:25:45 PM »
Actually, according to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit?s=t  the word spirit as a noun has 25 different uses, 2 more as an adjective, 3 as a verb, and it also mentions 1 as an idiom!
 
In terms of the game, spirit seems to represent nerve / courage / chutzpah / spunk / independence / ...and stuff.  It takes guts to get up in front of a beery leery bunch of strangers and sing them a pitch-perfect song, so it's counted as a positive attribute for singing in the bar, which makes sense, but it's also a bad attribute in terms of being able to actually control the girl - everyone knows that Divas can be a pain in the backside to actually work with, and the music industry in particular is renowned for them!  So it nicely gives you a dilemma when you have a talented girl that spends half her time not working for you - do you try to break her spirit so you can actually get her to work when she's supposed to, or do you handle with kidgloves cos you're scared to risk impacting on the very thing that makes her talented?

So yeah spirit might not be the ideal word, but if you change it for one that's better then everyone that's ever made a GPAC is going to be kinda annoyed, and it's understandable enough I think - English has always been a bit flexible, with every word having a million different meanings, it's why we love our double entendres  :P
 
Good points, and I think I'll be keeping things the way they are then. Spirit measures the girl's energy and enthusiasm, and also the girl's willfulness and defiance. Obedience will continue to offset the girl's Rebelliousness from spirit, but highly spirited girls will still be a handful. They will also be better at certain jobs where their energy/enthusiasm is an asset, for example and especially the singer.

If there's any job that will be able to be used to lower spirit, I would say it's the Customer Service job. If there's anything that will suck the life and soul right out of you, it's that...

*cough* anyway... moving on.

I've seen some good suggestions in here, and I'll be adding some of them to my to-do list. But my next release will be under Whore Master MMX, together with Crazy, so keep an eye on that topic for my next update. Keep the suggestions coming, though. I like seeing what other people can come up with, and sometimes I see an idea and go 'Ok, this is going in RIGHT NOW.'
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 12:16:29 AM by Aika »

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2012, 01:08:32 AM »
*cough* anyway... moving on.

But, but... why?

Even if everyone who reads the dictionary in the link CeeBod provided chooses to ignore that the only reference directly points to Mood/Enthusiasm clearly states in bold with an s at the end:

 13. spirits, feelings or mood with regard to exaltation or depression: low spirits; good spirits.

And practically every other meaning points to Soul/Ghost/Holy or Mental/Moral Strength or Conviction (Except distilled alcohol and several 'spirit of ____' meanings), there is a clear conflict if this is left unresolved. Here is why:

A girl is forced a slave or/and sent to dungeon: Mood (spirits) fall instantly (unless masochist trait) while the defiance will rise in protest to abuse (spirits in sense of Courage/Moral and etc.) at least until we manage to break her spirit by torture/deprivation. I can think of a bunch of different examples... but you get the picture, in many places in the game = spirits (mood, enthusiasm) and spirit (courage, firmness of intent, vigor) are self-excluding and we'll be suffering from cognitive dissonance if we use both at the same time.

Mood or Enthusiasm can be added to the game to fix this issue...

Actually, according to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit?s=t  the word spirit as a noun has 25 different uses, 2 more as an adjective, 3 as a verb, and it also mentions 1 as an idiom!
 
In terms of the game, spirit seems to represent nerve / courage / chutzpah / spunk / independence / ...and stuff.  It takes guts to get up in front of a beery leery bunch of strangers and sing them a pitch-perfect song, so it's counted as a positive attribute for singing in the bar, which makes sense, but it's also a bad attribute in terms of being able to actually control the girl - everyone knows that Divas can be a pain in the backside to actually work with, and the music industry in particular is renowned for them!  So it nicely gives you a dilemma when you have a talented girl that spends half her time not working for you - do you try to break her spirit so you can actually get her to work when she's supposed to, or do you handle with kidgloves cos you're scared to risk impacting on the very thing that makes her talented?

So yeah spirit might not be the ideal word, but if you change it for one that's better then everyone that's ever made a GPAC is going to be kinda annoyed, and it's understandable enough I think - English has always been a bit flexible, with every word having a million different meanings, it's why we love our double entendres  :P
 
 
 And if one reads the uses they would come to the conclusion same as yours... why after 'nerve / courage / chutzpah / spunk / independence' you're talking about singers? When spirit is used in that sense Benjamin Franklin, Joan de Arc, Charles de Gaulle spring into my mind... Maybe 300 Spartans. How do you get to Mariah Carey and Britney Spears so quickly. Spirit in that sense should mean more than courage barmaid needs to get out a song, defying Slavery, Ownership and Abuse is what Spirit seems to mean in WM (At least to me)...

 Divas (in stereotypical sense) are not high spirited, they are hard to control because they are egoistic. Many in the same stereotypical view suffer from depression (low spirits)... Also the dilemma is easy to solve, is she bringing in 10x more than she could as a whore after you break her? The idea of the game is to run a business and gain territory control, unless that changes in the patch as well, pampering unruly girls should have a point (good rewards in sense of better playing costumers and/or better income from girl in question).

 Sorry for being pain in the ass but I think we should figure out what spirit/spirits mean for the patch: Even if we say, English be damned and use energy/enthusiasm as well as willfulness/defiance conflict of effects in game will hardly be resolved...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:10:59 AM by Xela »
Like what we're doing?

Offline kaneage

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #215 on: June 13, 2012, 03:04:13 AM »
I think we are having a linguistic problem more than a functionality problem.  First off, spirits and spirit are the same thing. I know this because a person in high spirits, is full of spirit not spirits.  they reference the same thing, which is a positive emotion/aura/feeling. (Im choosing to believe the application of spirit in WM is not the religious soul version of spirit)  We cannot get much more specific than that because the word is purposely ambiguous.

The english language is full of words that have general definitions especially when dealing with complex ideas like emotions.  Love is a perfect example.  I Love my wife, son and mother yet i love my wife in a very different way than i love my son whom i love differently than my mother.  rather than create new words for each type of love we leave it as is and come up with specific aspects of "Love" and define those.  "Spirit" is the same way.  Spirit is defined as a positive emotion/aura/feeling that a person has.  this can be found in soldiers in high spirits or in a singer who is full of spirit on stage.  People who have this high euphoria tend to be more courageous and vigorous but they are not in themselves definitions of "spirit".

Take yourself out of the WM universe and into RL for a minute for this example.  Picture 2 girls who were abducted and sold into slavery.  1 girl was rescued after 3 days while the other girl was rescued after 3 years.  how will their "spirits" differ? Id imagine that the girl rescued after 3 days, while still traumatic, will still be able to live a normal life afterward. The girl living that way for 3 years might be irreversibly damaged. Her "spirit", her positive emotion/aura/feeling may never return.

This is what i thought spirit in the game meant and why it decreased over time.  happiness is variable from day to day but a girls spirit is more long term.  High spirit makes me think the girl has hope. Thus the tie into rebellion.  People who are in high spirits tend to be more chipper rather than a shell of a person. this is the tie into the customer related jobs.  ultimately i feel spirit decreasing as a slave is how it should be. maybe to counter it free girls could have spirit increase.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #216 on: June 13, 2012, 04:09:20 AM »
I think we are having a linguistic problem more than a functionality problem.  First off, spirits and spirit are the same thing. I know this because a person in high spirits, is full of spirit not spirits.  they reference the same thing, which is a positive emotion/aura/feeling. (Im choosing to believe the application of spirit in WM is not the religious soul version of spirit)  We cannot get much more specific than that because the word is purposely ambiguous.

 Not religious, no, neither is anyone suggesting that it means alcohol in WM. Your example has a flaw. Try to describe a person of low spirit but in high spirits and you might figure it out... They do not reference the same thing, one references to courage, a quality, a will to never give up and stand by your principles and stand your ground while other is a mood and emotional state. So here I just got very specific, try to find a flow in that logic if you like...

The english language is full of words that have general definitions especially when dealing with complex ideas like emotions.  Love is a perfect example.  I Love my wife, son and mother yet i love my wife in a very different way than i love my son whom i love differently than my mother.  rather than create new words for each type of love we leave it as is and come up with specific aspects of "Love" and define those.  "Spirit" is the same way.  Spirit is defined as a positive emotion/aura/feeling that a person has.  this can be found in soldiers in high spirits or in a singer who is full of spirit on stage.  People who have this high euphoria tend to be more courageous and vigorous but they are not in themselves definitions of "spirit".

True, actually, you cannot tell what PCLove stat means for sure in WM, much less am I willing to try and add different love stats to the game... Love in WM can mean love as in husband, lover or love as in father figure or love as in idol and master and a load of other kinds of love... and in some cases in WM different Love would also mean different reaction of girl to interaction... but we're not debating that.

Take yourself out of the WM universe and into RL for a minute for this example.  Picture 2 girls who were abducted and sold into slavery.  1 girl was rescued after 3 days while the other girl was rescued after 3 years.  how will their "spirits" differ? Id imagine that the girl rescued after 3 days, while still traumatic, will still be able to live a normal life afterward. The girl living that way for 3 years might be irreversibly damaged. Her "spirit", her positive emotion/aura/feeling may never return.

 Interesting, when slavery was abolished, you actually think that slaves who'd been liberated after many years of captivity were incapable of of having positive emotions/aura/feelings? I am not even sure how to respond to that, other than differentiate one more time on the difference between spirit and spirits. Imagine girl's spirit was broken, she lost a will to fight/escape and submitted, you think that she can no longer be in high spirits? That is ridiculous, a guy she likes gave her a compliment, her child took a first step, she just woke up on the right side of the bed and she is sulking? I am not sure what does through your mind if you think slaves are only capable of being sad once they submitted...

 The thing and I am repeating myself... is that strong spirit cannot be broken quickly while high spirits can change in about 2 seconds (girls tend to have moodswings). That has a very direct impact on the game and it's programming and that is what we're discussing. I am not saying that singing with spirit for example is not a valid saying, I am saying that it means singing with vigor and not signing in a good mood (althou those in this particular case go together more often than not).

This is what i thought spirit in the game meant and why it decreased over time.  happiness is variable from day to day but a girls spirit is more long term.  High spirit makes me think the girl has hope. Thus the tie into rebellion.  People who are in high spirits tend to be more chipper rather than a shell of a person. this is the tie into the customer related jobs.  ultimately i feel spirit decreasing as a slave is how it should be. maybe to counter it free girls could have spirit increase.

 Spirit IS longterm, happiness can be both long and short term. Basically all of your girls are captive as they cannot leave freely (you're guarding their escape, slave or not) so I am not sure why you believe that a girl of a strong spirit would be chipper under this circumstances... also it is absolute BS that a girl with broken spirit is a shell of a person, you want real world, think North Korea, whole country is practically enslaved, you think people there never laugh or have never been in a good mood?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:13:59 AM by Xela »
Like what we're doing?

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #217 on: June 13, 2012, 04:26:01 AM »
*cough* anyway... moving on.

This was actually very wise :)

They will also be better at certain jobs where their energy/enthusiasm is an asset, for example and especially the singer.

If there's any job that will be able to be used to lower spirit, I would say it's the Customer Service job. If there's anything that will suck the life and soul right out of you, it's that...
Still a request:
Please consider making girls happiness decrease from CS job. Singer makes sense in more ways than one, maybe some other jobs as well.
Like what we're doing?

Offline b00marrows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2012, 05:35:24 AM »
just a quick point, this game dosent only have slaves AND you can pay your workers.

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #219 on: June 13, 2012, 05:51:06 AM »
just a quick point, this game dosent only have slaves AND you can pay your workers.

Who said it only had slaves? Captivity and enslavement are somewhat different but girl CANNOT leave and NEVER even asks for permission to leave, they run away... that means they are being forced and being held captive. Do you have another view on the matter?
Like what we're doing?

Offline b00marrows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2012, 05:55:26 AM »
to be honest if you managed to get a non slave unhappy enough to run away you deserve it

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #221 on: June 13, 2012, 06:04:25 AM »
to be honest if you managed to get a non slave unhappy enough to run away you deserve it

I am not sure what triggers runaway but I am fairly sure that happiness is not the only stat as I've had girls close to 100 happiness running away without any good reason. That might have been in older versions thou...
Like what we're doing?

Offline b00marrows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #222 on: June 13, 2012, 06:08:30 AM »
must have been, the only girl i have ever had run away was in EX, i had no security and i tryed to brand a girl into a slave she got away ofc. apart from that i guess im just a good master  8)

Offline crazy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #223 on: June 13, 2012, 06:17:31 AM »
I am not sure what triggers runaway but I am fairly sure that happiness is not the only stat as I've had girls close to 100 happiness running away without any good reason. That might have been in older versions thou...
Just from looking it seem that the more days they are unhappy is the bigger the chance of them running away.  Seem unhappiness is the only stat that plays into unless I'm missing something.  That said do non slaves runaway also?  I think they do which don't seem right shouldn't a non slave just quit?

Offline Xela

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6893
  • "It's like hunting cows"
Re: Whore Master Patch
« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2012, 06:26:24 AM »
Just from looking it seem that the more days they are unhappy is the bigger the chance of them running away.  Seem unhappiness is the only stat that plays into unless I'm missing something.  That said do non slaves runaway also?  I think they do which don't seem right shouldn't a non slave just quit?

 Yeah, I remembered why they were running away. On vanilla items list I couldn't get cure for drug for a while or otherwise simply did not notice that one of the girls coming in drugged (gets harder when you have a few hundred)... it is entirely possible then.

 And your point is more than valid, a non slave should have the ability to quit and be more demanding of particular jobs that they like than normal slaves. That would be one of those obvious improvement I like so much :D
Like what we're doing?