Pink Petal Games
Game Discussion => General Discussion & Download => Topic started by: DocClox on July 19, 2010, 09:00:06 AM
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When ShiningRadiance first mentioned her intention to run a poll on the sandbox issue, I toild her that the game development process was not a democracy. And it's not. If you look around you'll find software development projects fall roughly into three categories:
- those with paid developers;
- those where the developers make the final decisions; and
- those with no developers at all
At the moment, this is a type 2 project.
That said, I've no wish to inflict my vision on people if the majority are dead set against it. So maybe we need another poll, this time on the "personality" controversy.
As most of you will know, I'm in favour of the first option. If it turns out that that's not what everybody wants, I'll probably stand down as a WM dev, pretty much immediately. I know that sounds a bit like "either I get my own way or I'm not playing any more". Probably it would seem better if I just allowed myself to quietly lose interest afterwards. But I want people to know where I stand, and why.
As regards why, there are a two main factors. One is that a big part of my motivation has been looking forward to all the cool events I'll write once it's all done. If I can't write those events, it gets damn hard to motivate myself. All the more so since everyone who isn't a dev will be able to write whatever mods they damn well please; I end up being only one who can't play with the shiny new toys I helped create. That's ... just depressing, really.
The second reason is that even if I wanted to, I find it very hard to write in that style, at least where Crossgate is concerned. Everyone's creative process works differently and I find my inspiration here starts by constructing the dialogue in my head. If I can't do that, the ideas just dry up.
And thirdly I'm fed up to the back teeth of having to endlessly justify every comma and semi-colon that I write. This blasted debate doesn't seem to want to go away, and if it's going to come to this, then I'd sooner it happened now rather than in six months time after I've done a shitload more work.
So let's see what people really want here. And then, I can either carry on where I left off. or else I'll leave you in the more than capable hands of my fellow devs, and see you all when Clonemaster is ready for an alpha release.
Either way, I'm looking forward to spending my time coding rather than playing at politics.
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I find it more fun to play with a well defined character. Part of the reason that I play games is to get a brief escape from the real world, part of which is my own thoughts. If I am defining my character completely the purpose of that is defeated and I might as well go outside. By having a well defined character to play the role of I can set myself aside for a bit and completely relax. As more choices are offered I can twist the character a bit, sure, but I'm playing that character as I want to at that moment, I'm not playing myself.
I'm all for a well defined MC and if people want to remove that later, isn't that why the devs are working to make the game fairly easy to mod?
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I had hoped for some middle ground. Something more than a faceless cutout doing your bidding, but not well-defined by any means, so that what you choose to have him do defines him more than anything else. I think that a certain modicum of harshness and disregard for others would be necessary, given the nature of the world he lives in, but I vote little else outside of actions people choose to take.
P.S. If I have sounded critical in the past, I hope I've made it clear that I was expressing my own opinion and was by no means at any time ungrateful for the work that's been done. Anything I say is meant to be taken as a suggestion in hopes of contributing, not to tear down the hard work that's been put in... except for the jokes and sarcasm, of course. ~_^
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I had hoped for some middle ground. Something more than a faceless cutout doing your bidding, but not well-defined by any means, so that what you choose to have him do defines him more than anything else.
That's what I think of as the psychology vs morality issue. I don't want to write anyone's morality (apart from as you say, an acknowledgement of the violent environment in which the MC needs to operate). On the other hand, if the MC's voice is to be consistent, we need clear guidelines. I see no way around this.
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The problem I see with strong characterization in a game with as much cruelty potential as WM is making that character appropriate to the setting without being offensive.
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A made an account just so i could throw my 2 cents in here.
I voted for option 1, as i think a defined character is a great idea, but only as long as morality of the character is left entirely up to the player. Some people are going to want to play with an iron fist while others are going to want to play with a gentle hand. As long as you think you can avoid polarizing the player's character one way or the other than i'd say the game will be better for it.
If you don't think that can be done then i would say it would be better to go the other way, as going to gritty or gentle might clash with anything the players might write for themselves and take away from the customizable nature of this game. :)
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Something else that occurs to me though is that if you wanted to do some more morality specific events. Couldn't you do that with Lua? Like for example, you could set a event to only activate based on notoriety.
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Oh, and by the way, I'm for development head and shoulders above no development of the game far before any other issue is taken into account at all.
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I don't even understand why this issue is so problematic. It's been stated multiple times that the MC's dialog can be edited using Lua.
There is no reason that what Doc writes will be the only option players have. The game can be played using whoever, whatever personality you want.
If you wanted to put Master Roshi from Dragon Ball Z into the game as the MC (swap out the default MC profile pic drop in Master Roshi's pic.) and then change the dialog to match what he would say, you could do that.
If player's want a silent MC, then just make the necessary changes to Doc's initial script by writing in the 'absence' of dialog.
Perhaps the community here should just regard Doc's 'default MC' as a template for how the MC would interact within the game. Just regard Doc's work as an example, if you will. Encouraging you the player to make your own changes to the script. The community already mods plenty of girl packs. Why not offer several script mods as well.
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I don't even understand why this issue is so problematic. It's been stated multiple times that the MC's dialog can be edited using Lua.
There is no reason that what Doc writes will be the only option players have. The game can be played using whoever, whatever personality you want.
If you wanted to put Master Roshi from Dragon Ball Z into the game as the MC (swap out the default MC profile pic drop in Master Roshi's pic.) and then change the dialog to match what he would say, you could do that.
^ This. Doc needs to get the event system fleshed out first before we can go forward with mods. If it's easier for him to do it with an MC with a personality then let him do so. If you don't like what he did, Mod it when scripting comes online.
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So really this is if there's a characterization in the default set game. As that's the case go for it.
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The problem I see with strong characterization in a game with as much cruelty potential as WM is making that character appropriate to the setting without being offensive.
I think the key will be to do "cruel" without doing "crude". It won't disarm all potential criticism, but I think we can reduce the risk, as it were.
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If you don't like what he did, Mod it when scripting comes online.
Agreed.
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I could also mention that I've offered to write dialogue and story elements (whether I'll be taken up on that offer, we'll see) and while what I'm asked to write may not be exactly what I'd prefer, if I do get the opportunity, I'll be trying to give the developers whatever they ask for.
That being said, if I do end up doing some writing and people want a story with a little less... character in the main character, I could certainly provide alternate story and dialogue elements that they could switch out with whatever gets used for the official release.
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just given the fact that the game is so modifiable makes me just fine with having (or the possibility) a character more developed then I would want (I'm not against character development). I mean if we don't like something, it's usually fairly simple to change it, even it's only to add another option or two.
so I'm in the "write as you please category"
infact I would rather have an over developed MC then an underdeveloped MC.
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hmm, yes I went too far with the silent character approach in the initial design. Players either need some ques as to who their character is so that their imagination can fill in the blanks or they need nothing defined at all (civilization games) where they can effectively play as themselves.
I am beginning to see that the second you start to define some aspects or background to a character you need to do a little more. I think some people are better at imagining a characters personality than others and so by giving very little background to a character you make things difficult for people who have more trouble imagining their character. There is probably a happy medium but it is difficult to hit that mark. So this is just a warning to all those who will attempt to write such a character.
Admittedly though I never did design whoremaster so perhaps if I did I would have noticed the oversight on the characters personality.
That said I think doc is going the right way about things, making it mod-able so that people can create their own ideas of the character.
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I'm indifferent to the whole thing really. I really think WM would be better off stopping development soon, as the game has more or less reached the goals of an unpaid project. It wasn't meant to be some sort of grand RPG, it was meant to be a brothel sim with moddable content and a minor crime sub-theme. Making all the new jobs functional and tweaking the difficulty a tad are really all that should be done.
All this other talk - dynamic gangs, massive overhauls of the skill system, girls taking on more combat roles, etc. - would honestly be best left for a new game. A Whore Master 2, with an artist or 3 creating some original girls so you can sell it without getting in legal trouble (while leaving the moddability of course), seems like a more constructive use of developer time (and modivation!). Then all these big ideas like arena combat and such would seem far more reasonable.
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I very much agree. All that really needs to be done is tweaking or finishing what is already there. The project grew way beyond what I originally intended and without the help of doc and the rest of the dev team it wouldn't be the game it is now. I have to give a special mention to dagoth who has done most of the fixes and updates for 1.30, not to mention keeping this forum in order :D.
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I still say we should be able to do conjugal visits for girls in jail >.>
On a more serious note, Doc and I had a long convo about mods for various games, one of them being Oblivion. The great thing about Oblivion is your character has no back story other than getting out of jail (unless you get the alternate start mod). This allows you to think up your own, if you're into the roleplay aspect. Your story is built as you play the game and perform various deeds. Like saving Kvatch, for example. After you save the city, you become known around Tamriel as the hero of Kvatch. Or when you become arena champion. People bring it up in conversations and it effects your standing, sometimes resulting in the ability to haggle with certain shops for a lower price than you would otherwise.
What I'm trying to say is that you should have the ability to create your own back story then add to it as you play the game for a better feeling of immersion. Like give several options, effecting (I'm assuming they'll be installed for the future combat system) stats, starting cash, your starting standing within the community, political power, and quality of starting brothels, then set it up so people can add options easily, via text file or modding app.
That's just my 2 cents as a gamer and former lead game administrator for a few games that catered to the player community overall, as I do feel WM is just as player driven as any MUD I've played or ran.
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I see no point in the game stopping development all the devs working on the game right now want to work on it they each have good ideals for the game and people still want new things in the game. Why stop and make Whore Master 2 when they can just extend on whats already there and make it Whore Master 2. If anything i would like to see more devs working on the game cause there's so much to add and only a few working.
Back on topic i think having a defined personality is the way to go. Doc has full plans to make the game script easy to mod so there's really no point in people say that he has to do it one way or the other let him do it how he wants and if you don't like it it will be a simple thing to change. I personally look forward to seeing his ideal for the MC.
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I very much doubt it will ever stop development. But I don't think that the newer features should be of importance just yet. If we try to develop all the great ideas people have come up with then we will end up with something unmanageable for the development team. We only need to focus on the features we are currently implementing, once they are done then we can look at new things.
Whoremaster 2 isn't in development and may never be. Whoremaster 1 couldn't ever become a sequel as it has technical limitations that would be a nightmare to try to get around. A sequel requires a lot of work, in some ways more than the original. Not to mention the design I have for a possible sequel is almost an entirely different game and would probably be released under a different name should it be developed.
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Apparently, exodia two isn't going to vote here or take part in the political aspects of this.
Oh well.
*Votes*
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I very much agree. All that really needs to be done is tweaking or finishing what is already there. The project grew way beyond what I originally intended and without the help of doc and the rest of the dev team it wouldn't be the game it is now.
Well, it's still your project so far as I'm concerned. Mind, finishing what is already there is stil quite a bit. Jobs, scripting, be a shame not to do the wards after all the work that's gone into it...
I suppose The question raised is how do we know when the game is finished? You're quire right in that if we keep expanding on it, then eventually we're going to complicate it to the point where it becomes unmaintainable or uplayable.
That said, projects like FreeCiv and Wesnoth don't seem to have this problem. But then again, maybe their scope was rather better defined in the first place, both of them being clones of existing games.
I have to give a special mention to dagoth who has done most of the fixes and updates for 1.30, not to mention keeping this forum in order :D .
+1 to that. Dagoth has been a star.
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I'm in favor of a defined personality, but I'd still like some control over the pc's personality if possible, maybe just being able to choose a good vs. evil type.
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That poll's too black-and-white. I'm all for having a personality, so long as that personality is defined by our actions (of course, we need to get the alignment thing working better for that).
I'm not going to vote because I disagree with BOTH options. But I do want Doc to stay.
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I'm in favor of a defined personality, but I'd still like some control over the pc's personality if possible, maybe just being able to choose a good vs. evil type.
Well, the idea would be to managre morality through dialogue choices.
So we'd aim to keep the tone morally neutral (or at least ambiguous) until such a time as the player decided how he wanted to handle a situation. Then, since we now know how the player wants to play this scene, we can deal somewhat more directly with the moral elements.
You can probably see what I mean in the "Nutt House" event I outlined a while back.
That poll's too black-and-white. I'm all for having a personality, so long as that personality is defined by our actions (of course, we need to get the alignment thing working better for that).
I'm not going to vote because I disagree with BOTH options. But I do want Doc to stay.
Yeah, with hindsight, I probably could have included a middle ground option.
As for me going; necno's in favour of getting the project into maintenance mode, and at about 60/40 the poll looks like it's going to be too close for me to be comfortable laying down the law. So I'm thinking I'll hang around long enough to get the scripting working and tie up a few loose ends. Realistically, that still leaves me working on WM for a month or three yet.
After that, I'm going to get clonemaster going properly :D
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I could also mention that I've offered to write dialogue and story elements (whether I'll be taken up on that offer, we'll see) and while what I'm asked to write may not be exactly what I'd prefer, if I do get the opportunity, I'll be trying to give the developers whatever they ask for.
That sounds reasonable to me.
Relieving Doc of extra work seems to be a good idea, as lately he's on everything: coding, storyboard, thinking about quests, adding LUA support, helping with bug fixes (even dealing with forum controversy)...
It would be great if Doc only had to think a little about it, draw some major lines of the great picture and then let some other fellow 'flesh the bones'. That would require this poor fellow writing several versions, then Doc would decide wich one suits better what he had in mind -maybe some corrections / feedback- and then just Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V.
If you think you can do a decent work as dialogue writer, go for it but always keep in mind that Doc was the one who drawed the big pic and has the whole thing in his head. I guess he's the masterplan, so if you want to help get the job done following his directions, make your suggestions whenever you feel like, and don't get pissed off if he (or anyone) doesn't like some of them. Maybe I would help with dialogues myself but, as you can see, my english sucks so I'd rather stick to pictures -I'm busy with Town Wards Mapping at the moment.
And finally, time to take sides... I'd go for personality; as said, better having one than none. On the other hand, I wouldn't go for a strong personality -that way we wouldn't kill psy-projection completely.
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Well, the idea would be to managre morality through dialogue choices.
So we'd aim to keep the tone morally neutral (or at least ambiguous) until such a time as the player decided how he wanted to handle a situation. Then, since we now know how the player wants to play this scene, we can deal somewhat more directly with the moral elements.
I like this idea a lot. Almost a middle ground of sorts... almost. Defined but also open enough to allow people to play their way.
Yeah, with hindsight, I probably could have included a middle ground option.
I disagree, from what I saw of the last poll and others, people would rather have everything over one thing. Besides, your thoughts on the personality thing seem to be a middle ground of sorts anyways. This forum largely doesn't care as long as WM continues to provide and expand as a game. As long as it's fun! It's more so the few loud ones that make things the most difficult.
As for me going; necno's in favour of getting the project into maintenance mode, and at about 60/40 the poll looks like it's going to be too close for me to be comfortable laying down the law. So I'm thinking I'll hang around long enough to get the scripting working and tie up a few loose ends. Realistically, that still leaves me working on WM for a month or three yet.
After that, I'm going to get clonemaster going properly :D
Although I'd hate to see you go back to clonemaster while this to-do list has expanded so much, I'm actually looking forward to that game as well. I have to say though, WM DID need a creative director and maybe it still does. You've taken the helm quite well, and if it were me I probably wouldn't have been as lenient as you have been. I don't know where the whole "corrupt dictator" thing came from, but that hardly seems to be the case to me. ( I hope I'm not spurring bad blood again. :/)
Anyways,
A 60/40 poll is far enough (in my opinion) to go one way over another. However, perhaps some things could be better left for a Whore Master 2 after all? I must admit WM currently has enough in it to be a pretty well done game. So no arguments as to squashing existing bugs and finishing up already coded content here. Largely once all that has been done the modders and community could expand it much further anyways.
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I still say we should be able to do conjugal visits for girls in jail >.>
You know, that probably wouldn't be so hard to write. Treat the jail as a brothel, albeit with a lot of options disabled. Bribe the turnkey a few gold and you could spend some quality time with your girls.
No good tactical reason for it, but I can see it appealing on other levels :)
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Random event for a guard captain to come over as a customer and enjoy himself to unlock this option?
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That works for me :)
+20% bonus for BDSM sex while the girl's in jail :)
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That works for me :)
+20% bonus for BDSM sex while the girl's in jail :)
If that's the case can we send them to the MC's house too? (say for a love boost)
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Well, I was only going to make the sex better, rather than giving any lasting bonus. In practical terms, that means you get half again the chance to knock them up if they're fertile.
Of course, being in jail, they should probably get a weekly chance of getting knocked up anyway. This is Crossgate, after all.
I'll see how things look once I get some of the bigger items removed from my worklist. I don't want to add anything major if we're going to stabilise things.
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Why not simply use a "choose your own adventure" approach, modifying the successive events by parameters given to the WM trough past events, training style and status at the time.Base everything in stats like sadism/neutral/masochist Lawful/neutral/Corrupt traditional/neutral/twisted rich/neutral/poor slaver/neutral/reformist, etc
Then lets say you torture one of you girls you get a sadist+1 since they are your property law is unchanged. Then you execute one of your rivals and get a law -1 sadist +1. That way you can activate and deactivate responses to events depending on the range of each value and further manipulate the values by the reposes of the events.
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Not that it has much to do with this topic, it does enough that I feel the need to link to it, but http://pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=479.0
A topic based on me and Doc's discussion on catacomb missions as pertains to the player.
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Why not simply use a "choose your own adventure" approach, modifying the successive events by parameters given to the WM trough past events, training style and status at the time.Base everything in stats like sadism/neutral/masochist Lawful/neutral/Corrupt traditional/neutral/twisted rich/neutral/poor slaver/neutral/reformist, etc
Then lets say you torture one of you girls you get a sadist+1 since they are your property law is unchanged. Then you execute one of your rivals and get a law -1 sadist +1. That way you can activate and deactivate responses to events depending on the range of each value and further manipulate the values by the reposes of the events.
That sounds incredibly complicated.
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Hmm.
No issue with personality. As long as there's enough options for the good, the evil, and the in-between.
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Then lets say you torture one of you girls you get a sadist+1 since they are your property law is unchanged. Then you execute one of your rivals and get a law -1 sadist +1. That way you can activate and deactivate responses to events depending on the range of each value and further manipulate the values by the reposes of the events.
Got something similar to this planned for Clonemaster. The options are going to be in a triangle with the points being Ethical, Lustful and Scientific, and the middle being Normal. Every response you make will move you toward one of those points and where you are on the graph will have an effect on how some scenes are described, and on the sort of dialogue you get when interacting with your girls. I'm hoping to make "chat" somewhat more interesting than it is in WM.
I'd do it for WM, but there's a lot of code to write to support it. I might look at a backport mod if I get it sorted out in clonemaster, though.