Author Topic: <-- Archived --> **Traits Concept  (Read 50563 times)

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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »
I never created such trait, and the actual version of traits.xml in dropbox doesn't have it, you can be assured.
I'm pretty sure I saw it in traits.xml in the most recent revision of our master branch. It was called "Long Hair".

I'm pretty sure vanilla WM has at least one item that change orientation, and if I remember correctly, Pytfall has 2 such items now  :)
I see. Yeah, in a game like this it surely is more fun to let orientation be a dynamic thing. We can just keep them as traits.

However, I'm not sure about this part:What they actually could do except for various events and effects that could be coded even now without using additional Advantages category, since traits can trigger events and give effects (not necessarily temporary)? Or this is about traits sorting?
No, it's not about traits sorting. I'm mostly trying to establish defined concepts that make communicating and planning easier and make code and documentation easier to read and understand as well.
You definitely raise an important question here and I've been thinking about this myself. I'm not sure yet what could be done that traits currently can't do. I definitely don't like permant effects. If it's here to stay, it's IMHO not an effect. Using permanent effects to let traits do stuff that can not be implemented in XML might lead to really complicated traits. I don't think that's a good idea. If it can't be done in XML, it might not be a good idea to model it as trait. Could you provide examples of traits that use "permanent effects"?

Update: AFAIK, we currently have girls ingame that are androids or robots and I also saw a trait for aliens. If we want to model things like these, I don't think we should do it with traits. Robots should not have a health attribute. They should not heal by resting or medical treatment. They should be immune to diseases and fear. They might not even get tired. They should not benefit from nice flowers or good food. They should, however, require huge amounts of upkeep.


@CW
No, implementation-wise stats and skills are currently identical. All skills are stats, but not all stats are skills.  Attribute-like stats (health, fatigue, ...) and skill-like stats (dancing, fucking, ...) have probably more in common with each other than with other stats concerning skill caps and other implementation details, but in the broad picture their implementation is identical. My effort here is about building concepts that have a clear definition, so we can communicate effectively.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 08:46:00 AM by rudistoned »

Offline Xela

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 08:50:41 AM »
@CW
No, implementation-wise stats and skills are currently identical. All skills are stats, but not all stats are skills.  Attribute-like stats (health, fatigue, ...) and skill-like stats (dancing, fucking, ...) have probably more in common with each other than with other stats concerning skill caps and other implementation details, but in the broad picture their implementation is identical. My effort here is about building concepts that have a clear definition, so we can communicate effectively.

Just for the record:

Skills in girl.xml (magic and battle) are neither traits, nor feats, nor effects, not stats. They are assets to be passed to battle engine determining attack type of the girl (damage modifier and sound as well as name of the attack (currently not displayed but it is possible to enable that in BE)) and magic attack (Animation, sound, damage modifier, nature element modifier (not currently enabled either)).
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 08:54:45 AM »
I'm pretty sure I saw it in traits.xml in the most recent revision of our master branch. It was called "Long Hair".
Great. Now we even have shady traits makers. Well, not many people have access to your branch (I personally don't, and don't want to, since I'm ok with dropbox), so it's up to you guys to fix your mess  :D

Could you provide examples of traits that use "permanent effects"?
More exp for Genius and less exp for Retarded when they get exp.
Small mp recovery for Magic Talent.
+Libido per hit during battles for Masochist.

There is no meaning for traits to have effects in the first place if they could not be permanent.

Offline Xela

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 09:04:46 AM »
Great. Now we even have shady traits makers. Well, not many people have access to your branch (I personally don't, and don't want to, since I'm ok with dropbox), so it's up to you guys to fix your mess  :D

There has never been Long Hair trait in any version of traits file on any repository, at least I've never seen one.

You should get Git, it's bloody useful and you can get constant code upgrades for the game. DB folder gets old and redundant at this point (for updating the game, not exchanging files).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:09:18 AM by Xela »
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Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2013, 09:27:34 AM »
You should get Git, it's bloody useful and you can get constant code upgrades for the game
When I'll need those upgrades, I'll get it for sure. Right now I'm 100% busy with items, packs and concepts, so it's useless to me.

we currently have girls ingame that are androids or robots and I also saw a trait for aliens. If we want to model things like these, I don't think we should do it with traits. Robots should not have a health attribute. They should not heal by resting or medical treatment. They should be immune to diseases and fear. They might not even get tired. They should not benefit from nice flowers or good food. They should, however, require huge amounts of upkeep.
Um, I guess. Go ahead and code it, it's up to you coders anyway  ;)
Still could be done via effects as well.

Anyway, we could either use current trait system with effects or create Advantages instead. I still do not see any sense in that, but if it will be easier for coding, why not. It's not like I have to code it by myself  :D
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:30:40 AM by DarkTl »

Offline Xela

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2013, 09:48:05 AM »
Anyway, we could either use current trait system with effects or create Advantages instead. I still do not see any sense in that, but if it will be easier for coding, why not. It's not like I have to code it by myself  :D

I want to finish the core first and figure out the specifics afterwards. Like I've said many times already, I try to code in such way that would allow adding new code and elements to the game with minimum amount of bugs/refactoring.
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2013, 09:57:01 AM »
Now we even have shady traits makers.
I checked the history and there has never been a trait called "Long Hair". I must be imagining things.  ???

Well, not many people have access to your branch
Actually, the whole world has access as its on sourceforge.

Here's the link to browse the main repository, where all the code is: http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/pytfall/ci/master/tree/
Here's the link to the content repository: http://sourceforge.net/p/pytfall/content/content/ci/master/tree/

Oh, and the master branch ist not really my own, personal branch  ;)
master should contain our most stable code, basically the main, most playable version of the game

There is no meaning for traits to have effects in the first place if they could not be permanent.
That is exactly my point. If something can't be modeled without coding, modeling it as trait might be a bad idea. Defining part of it as trait and part of it as specialized effect distributes the code for the same thing over several places. Moreover, it compromises effects, as all those specialized "logic for advanced trait"-effects should probably be treated differently by the game as regular effects.

Concerning advantages: I think a good solution could be to just keep them as traits for the time being and turn them into something else if they bother us enough.


Still could be done via effects as well.
We could also code this game in C++ but that does not mean its a good idea to do it  ;)

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2013, 10:05:55 AM »
Btw, there is an item that removes Artificial Body, both in Wm and Pytfall, with the help of 'magic'.
So it's probably unwise to make Advantages absolutely irremovable. Or we should agree to not create such items.

Offline Xela

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2013, 10:08:38 AM »
We could also code this game in C++ but that does not mean its a good idea to do it  ;)

*shudders*

Didn't I suggest Assembler at some point  ::)
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Offline CherryWood

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2013, 02:34:12 PM »
The way I see it:


We currently have:
stats +BE skills (girl prowess represented by numbers)
traits (things that describe a girls difference from "normal")


and I personally think these two systems should be enough.
Also:


effects (for temporally stuff like illness)
"skill tree skills/feats/perks whatever name" (non-unique things that every girl can learn)


categories looks good to me for different visuals, but I'm not convinced yet that they should work differently then normal traits/items.


---
I think that robot example is overkill for any kind of trait system. If we want to simulate androids deeply as that, we should implement them in same way as slaves vs free girls.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 03:54:01 PM by CherryWood »

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2013, 12:00:40 PM »
I think that robot example is overkill for any kind of trait system. If we want to simulate androids deeply as that, we should implement them in same way as slaves vs free girls.
Maybe, I do not mind either way. Still, things like immunities to various effects and uselessness of consumables with "food" or "drugs" type (I'm going to use types for consumables eventually) sound nice.

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2013, 04:32:36 PM »
Maybe effect, feat is not likely to work here...
Btw, some characters should have scars from the start. If we'll convert scars into effects, we'll need a corresponding mechanism for attaching them in girls xmls, so maybe it's better to leave them as traits.

Offline Xela

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2013, 04:39:54 PM »
Btw, some characters should have scars from the start. If we'll convert scars into effects, we'll need a corresponding mechanism for attaching them in girls xmls, so maybe it's better to leave them as traits.

Scars are a trait in my dead, but I didn't get to deep into yours and Rudi's discussion on the topic.
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Offline rudistoned

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2013, 08:27:10 AM »
If we'll convert scars into effects
Why should scars be effects?

Offline DarkTl

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Re: Traits Concept
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2013, 09:24:16 AM »
Because small and medium scars are temporary, just like effects.