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Author Topic: Micromanagement & Big Question  (Read 7542 times)

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Offline Tweaker69

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Micromanagement & Big Question
« on: November 01, 2009, 12:37:23 AM »
Hi all, I had a couple of questions and maybe some feedback.

First let me say that the game has really come a long way, and is shaping up to be a pretty addicting little game. This is all advice from a non-coder, so my apologies if I suggest something that simply isn't feasible or worth the effort.

The micromanagement is getting better, but still could use something to allow someone to "skate through" some time without everyone dying in the dungeon or slacking off completely after one tough week ^_^ Perhaps a settings table/chart with min/max %'s for tiredness, happiness, health, rebelliousness (With standard default %'s in place, but adjustable).

-When they get too tired or unhappy, they rest to below the min % chosen (have an option to have these give popup notices), then return to the job they left. If that would be too hard to code, perhaps have another dropdown box with their "default job"

-When they get too rebellious, have a popup saying so, and/or auto-toss them in the dungeon. When inmates' learn their lessons well enough, give a popup of that and/or auto-release them.

-Have a checkbox for "Save from Starvation" or another min/max input box that will start feeding prisoners again, should they fall below %health (and perhaps start starving them again should they get really healthy.

I'd understand if most folks didn't want the "auto-detect/auto-fix" idea implemented, thinking this is a lot of the actual gameplay... But please still consider at least the OPTION of simply having these types of notices right out in the open. Right now, not everything I've stated will even flag a mention in turn summaries, and one has to search through nested "results buttons" or even individual character screens every turn to find out who's depressed, pissed off or almost dead.

The Matron Idea is cool, especially once we choose one of our girls to choose the role... But perhaps she could be more in charge of "rallying the troops", you know like morale and driving the girls to work harder for less. If I have a stat-based (i.e, likely somewhat prone to mistakes) AI taking care of my micro, I'll end up just doing it all myself... and then rapidly getting bored ^_^ I'm a bit of a perfectionist... Or extremely anal if you prefer the term.

Lastly, my big question. I wasn't sure if it was a bug in my particular savegame or if I simply hadn't quite played enough turns. I had a few girls give birth, and wondered if the offspring simply bugged/disappeared or if they simply have no info screens until later in the game. If that is the case, then how many weeks pass after birth before they reappear ingame?

Thanks much for your time,
Tweaker

Offline letmein

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 01:29:22 AM »
Last part first:  offspring don't show up for... ah... I forget the actual amount of time ATM, but it's something like 30 weeks, or so.  They mystically age 18 years over that time frame, too.

Now, combining a lot of what you said together, you're giving off a couple of different competing vibes... you say you don't want something doing a lot of micro for you, but most of the rest of what you say is anti-micro!  Weird.  :p   Anyway, I don't know what necno will end up doing with matrons when all is said and done.  I do think that the current system *isn't* all that bad.  If you want to micro, you can micro, and if you don't you don't have to (plus you save 200 gold/turn, not that it means much).  Once matrons become actual girls, though, I suspect the option to not use them will be much less appealing, but until that happens I think the issue can be ignored for a while.

As for the rest - matrons are *supposed* to return girls back to their job once they get rested up.  Tha was bugged for a good long while, but I thought necno had fixed that for 1.29...

I'm not quite sure what to think about your chart suggestion - part of that is because I'm not exactly positive I understand what you're saying, but mostly because I think it would chance the game a lot.  Perhaps too much.  Once you throw in that chart, the game basically becomes a spreadsheet - not that it isn't like that already, but there's enough glitter and pseudorandomness to disguise it.  Your suggestion would, to me, make it too much of a game that "played itself", and worse, a spreadsheet that simply recalculated itself again and again with no player input.  Not fun.  Again, though, I might just be misinterpreting what you said a little.

I see that you'd make it optional, so that might help.  On the other hand, a lot of the issues could be fixed without creating an entirely new screen.  I think necno's planning to mess with the interface a bit (although his list of "things to do" always seems to get longer, never shorter), and if all the necessary information was in one place I think a lot of this would be moot.  There was a thread a few days ago discussing a possible change to the turn summary screen, which would serve as that requisite source of info.  In a perfect world, the TS screen would basically encompass the current brothel screen, the staff screen, and more besides, everything would be tab-selectable, basic girl info would pop up right in front of you, and going to an individual girl would need only one click.

Anyway, love the comments.  There have been a lot of newbies showing up the past couple days...  even better, ones that *talk*.
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Offline Tweaker69

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 02:03:45 AM »
Thanks a lot for answering my question. Might be nice to have some mention somewhere of them, even if simply a "# sons" and "#daughters" on the street-level screen or someplace.

Sorry about the mixed message. I get extremely bored with all of the micromanaging, but I simply can't "be happy enough" with letting an imperfect AI make those decisions. IOW, unless she had UBERstats I would end up doublechecking everything she did anyways, so it wouldn't save me much time or boredom.

Yeah, I was talking about having a separate spreadsheet-like "settings screen" for when someone wanted to allow girls to get more or less tired than the default settings, and what have you. Something that could be left all on defaults if the player didn't want to tweak anything.

I understand some people actually enjoy this level of micromanagement, so if they wish to not have ANY auto-pilot for the details... I think the game's fun points are getting a large harem, expanding by opening new brothels,  messing with the girls with both gifts and fear ^_^ and that there is more potential for an engaging experience with protecting territory, politics and rival gangs, gaining influence in the city and such. Once the actual system mechanics get more hammered out, there's great potential for interesting events to trigger quests and even I've heard some mention of having something of a dungeon crawl in the game. That's why I think the current gameplay needs micromanagement more than anything... In order to open it up and allow the player to be more immersed in the world than the numbers. This world has got a LOT of potential, both dark and light.

Anyways, thanks again for your response and nice welcome. I just joined here but I'd been piping up now and then on hongfire, previous. Have a good night!

Tweaker

Offline DocClox

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 01:04:58 PM »
What I think about micromanagement: I don't think people mind the micromanagement at all. That is, after all, the fun part of any sim. What I think people don't like is not being given the tools to conduct that micromanagement efficiently. And when they don't have those tools, that's when the cry goes up: "there's too much bloody micromanagement in this game".

As an example, look at SimBrothel. That's a perfectly lovely little game marred by the absence of proper management tools. No one minds the business of controlling every aspect of the girls' lives - that's a large part of the appeal, or at least why it has greater appeal than the latest Slutty McSlut adventure on Newgrounds. The trouble is that the it lacks good reporting screens, which means that it takes a lot of work to find the girls that need managing, and then once you've identified one, you need to go to a different screen and find her again before you can do the actual managing.

Letting the game AI make the choices for you, incidentally, doesn't help at all. They made that mistake with Master Of Orion 3. The game was insanely complicated, but had exceptionally good management AI.  The trouble was that you ended up A) not really understanding what was going on, and B) not needing to do anything anyway, since the game was quite capable of playing itself. This left most people feeling "why bother?". Which was a shame, given how awesome a game MOO2 was in its time.

Anyway, welcome to the forums. Pardon my random ramblings.

Offline letmein

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 01:33:17 PM »
Good point, Doc.  There's also the consideration of scale:  there is a huge difference between having 10 girls and 100.  You want the tools to be able to play at both levels.
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Offline necno

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 03:48:21 PM »
Ah, moo 3. Always preferred moo 2 for the stated reasons but still played it a lot. And for some reason i feel like playing nexus now... dam that game is awesome.
Yes, providing the tools for micromanagement is my job. And i have planed a few updates to certain screens that are lacking. Feedback on how many children there are and how old they are etc is a good thing that is much needed. 
As for the next update, its coming along nicely, a lot more than just the building changes is being implemented and it may almost feel like an entirely different game (but not in a bad way... i hope).
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Offline letmein

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 08:54:49 PM »
Great to hear.
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Offline zodiac44

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 09:51:06 PM »
MOO2 was a great game marred by a mistake that could have been fixed if the playtesters had been ambitious enough in their quest to find game-breaking combos.  You could build completely invincible ships in the game which guarantee that you win every fight without a single casualty, once you reach a certain tech level.

The original MOO was a better game from a replay standpoint.  I've been playing for 18 years, and I'm not about to stop any time soon.  >;o)
Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

Offline Tweaker69

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 11:36:29 PM »
What I think about micromanagement: I don't think people mind the micromanagement at all. That is, after all, the fun part of any sim. What I think people don't like is not being given the tools to conduct that micromanagement efficiently. And when they don't have those tools, that's when the cry goes up: "there's too much bloody micromanagement in this game".
Well, we could be talking about the same thing when you say it like that. I'm talking about having "the tools" to tell the matron what to look for and what she should do with a girl when it happens. Some folks will want nothing to do with any AI help, so can choose to remain in control of the smallest detail. At the least having easily seen "URGENT NOTICES" on the turn summary screen without having to sort through all the individual character screens or summary buttons would be a big help.

Quote
Letting the game AI make the choices for you, incidentally, doesn't help at all. They made that mistake with Master Of Orion 3. The game was insanely complicated, but had exceptionally good management AI.  The trouble was that you ended up A) not really understanding what was going on, and B) not needing to do anything anyway, since the game was quite capable of playing itself. This left most people feeling "why bother?". Which was a shame, given how awesome a game MOO2 was in its time.
I think MOO3's AI being "too good" was not at all the problem, but you're entitled to your opinion. It was, in my opinion, always pulling the player into fiddling with numbers and charts, and away from the gameworld, rather than helping to immerse them. It felt more like accounting homework than a science fiction game ^_^

Its fun to micromanage 1-10 worlds, and not so much the further you move toward 15, 20,30... 50 worlds. Its currently the same with the girls in WhoreMaster, just as it was with SimBrothel.

This is just my opinion. I'm not speaking for the entire world, here. I just would like the choice to feel less like I'mactually "the bitch" working for these Ho's... lol. They work for me dammit, and I just gotta come in and threaten em with a pimpslap if they ain't gotz my money, knowutahmsayn? ;D

I enjoy being the nanny sometimes, but there are also times when I think it would be nice to simply take care of my favorites, without being too worried of the rest getting depressed, exhausted, dying, or worst of all... slacking off!

Necno: "Feedback on how many children there are and how old they are etc is a good thing that is much needed."

Sounds good to me. Was sort of hoping for some direct feedback from you on my feedback, but I promise there'll be no hurt feelings over here ^_^ Hope all is well, and keep up the great work.

Tweaker69
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 11:38:36 PM by Tweaker69 »

Offline DocClox

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 02:34:11 AM »
Well, we could be talking about the same thing when you say it like that.

Yeah, yeah. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just kind of thinking out loud.

I think MOO3's AI being "too good" was not at all the problem, but you're entitled to your opinion. It was, in my opinion, always pulling the player into fiddling with numbers and charts, and away from the gameworld, rather than helping to immerse them. It felt more like accounting homework than a science fiction game ^_^

You clearly stuck with it longer than I did. I still think that the competence of the AI was a major demotivating factor for many people. The AI itself isn't a problem: The governors on Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri got it about right, I think. Good enough that things won't go to hell in a handcart the minute you turn your back, but not so good that you can ignore them completely.

Its fun to micromanage 1-10 worlds, and not so much the further you move toward 15, 20,30... 50 worlds. Its currently the same with the girls in WhoreMaster, just as it was with SimBrothel.

Well, to be fair, the current release isn't really representative of WM. I can generally fill all six brothels and still not feel like I'm spending too much time looking after the livestock

@zodiac44: I thought they largely sorted that out when they released a patch that nerfed plasma cannon among other things. Not that I ever really played the first one. (Although I'm still playing Master of Magic, so I know the feeling).

Offline zodiac44

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 03:43:00 PM »
Nope, the ultimate ship is as follows:

Load up a Doom Star hull with:
Battle Pods
Achilles Targeting Unit
Hyper-X Capacitors
Phasing Cloak
Structural Analyzer
Time Warp Facillitator
High-Energy Focus
Sub-Space Teleporter

As many Phasors (FX, with Heavy, Shield-Piercing, and Autofire mods) as you can fit, 1 Stellar Converter.

Battle pods give you +50% space to load things into.  With the Heavy mount and Autofire, Phasers shoot 3 times per firing for 150% damage per shot (total = 4.5 x damage).  With Shield Piercing and Achilles Targeting Unit, Phasers ignore shields and armor, directly damaging the structure of the ship.  Structural analyzer doubles damage that penetrates shields, and all Phaser shots penetrate shields (9x damage per firing).  High Energy Focus increases damage per shot by 50% (13.5x damage per firing).  Hyper-X Capacitors let you shoot twice until you take a turn without firing (27x damage per turn).  The Subspace teleporter allows you to optimally position your ships without getting fired upon for turning.  The Phasing Cloak makes your ships completely invisible (and unattackable) when cloaked (for 10 turns).  The Time-Warp Facillitator allows you to have two turns in between your opponent's turns.  The Stellar Converter takes care of the problem of planetary Barrier Shields (which Phasers can't penetrate).

Here's how everything works.  Each of your "turns" has two parts, which I will call "A" and "B" (A is your normal turn, B is the extra turn you get from Time-Warp Facillitators).  On A, decloak and blow up enemy ships with Phasers (you get to shoot twice, thanks to the Hyper-X Capacitors).  At the beginning of B, cloak, do not fire any weapons.  By cloaking, your opponent will not be able to fire on your ships on it's turn, and by not firing your weapons, you allow the Hyper-X Capacitors to recharge.  Your opponent takes it's turn and sits there with it's thumb up it's ass because it can't shoot anything.  Repeat A and B until all enemies destroyed.  You have only 10 of your turns (5 of your opponent's) before the Phasing Cloak runs out and becomes a regular cloak (80% protection), but that should be plenty of time to finish off any enemies unless you make a mistake or they get very lucky.

The only way I know of to defeat this ship is with a ship specifically designed to counter it, which would have:

Phasing Cloak
Battle Pods
Structural Analyzer
Achilles Targetign Unit
Warp Dissipator

As many Stellar Converters as you can fit.

You can use a smaller hull for this ship than the Doom Star, as it doesn't require as many mods or weapons as the ultimate ship.  The strategy is to hide far away from your opponent (corner of the map is good) and stay cloaked until the opponent's ship's Phasing cloak runs out, then blast away with the Stellar Converters, which have no range penalty.  1 or 2 shots should take out you opponent.  Ideally, they won't be able to get in range to hit you before you can kill them.

Since these ships can be smaller, you can build more of them cheaper, and bring many to a fight against the ultimate ship.  Unfortunately, they have little use beyond destroying planets against any other foe.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 04:18:43 PM by zodiac44 »
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Offline sgb

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 09:31:14 PM »
I tend to agree that too much automation makes the game pointless.  At most the matron eventually needs to put girls back to work that she's pulled off, and eventually a 'important messages only' filter for turn summaries.  Other than that, the current level of management is acceptable IMO.

And for those looking for the glory days of MOO2, give Galactic Civilizations 2 a try.  It's more or less the game MOO3 should have been.

Offline letmein

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009, 12:31:58 AM »
Since we seem to have veered (just a bit...), I wonder if we've hit the point where we want an off-topic thread?  From my experience, those end up being rather dead 70% of the time, but occasionally they can have a certain amount of entertainment.  Especially, perhaps, in a forum like this one...   :-\
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Offline DocClox

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Re: Micromanagement & Big Question
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 04:48:28 AM »
hmmmm.... seconded.

Galactic Civilisations 2, hmmm?

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