Author Topic: Megapack REDUX EDITION  (Read 111503 times)

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Offline ShiningRadiance

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2010, 01:19:45 AM »
Bringing back bad blood days after the fact. Even better.

Chaos is fun.

I   do listen to everyone's opinion. I'm just not obligated to do as   everyone wants. And if someone swears at me in public, then I   may well give that person's opinion less weight than it might otherwise   deserve.

I don't think any of that is particularly childish. I   don't think any of that is unreasonable.
 
Which is a valid   viewpoint. But it's not the only viewpoint, so whose do I   follow?

Is one person's objection to a plan always reason enough   to discard the plan? If so then I can do nothing at all, since there's   always someone to argue against any given proposal. At that point,   there's nothing left to do but withdraw from development entirely so as   not to upset anyone. Alternatively. I can try and move the game forward   as I think best.

I tried the withdraw entirely option and it   turned out that I still got mocked and abused for it. So now I'm trying   the second option, and moving the game forward.

It's not as   though I'm determined to make the game into something you don't like. I   want to have options that appeal to all play styles. I also want to get   all the dialog into text files so that if you don't like my take on the   PC you can substitute your own and distribute it as a mod. 

But,   for some reason there's a segment of this board that has it fixed in   their mind that I'm some mad, cruel monster hell-bent on destroying all   that they love about the game.

I don't think that's a fair   characterisation. And I don't think it accords with the changes I've   made to the game thus far.

Enjoy your stroll.

I was calling exodia childish, not you. Quitting because of a disagreement is childish.

Moving forward blindly is worse than staying still. On the internet, you will find many cowards who hide behind a screen cursing at you. Deal with it, and don't think any lesser of their ideas because of it. It is a natural response to give less weight to someone's argument when it is bathed in hate. However, just because a person is verbally inferior does not mean their ideas match the level of their words.

Now, as for your little 'take' on the main character... personally, I'd make a way to make it easily moddable beforehand. I like the silent character type, because then you can imagine all you want. If you set a personality in stone, it very, very often makes the character inferior. Think as if Link suddenly started talking with an old-age dialect. He would sound ridiculous, and there would naturally be people who would hate that, and people who would like it, but the majority of people would agree that he's better as a silent protagonist.

Exodia hates men, so he hates you. It probably runs a little deeper than   that, but if you were a woman, he'd like you no matter what you do.

There's one last thing I want to say to you here: You're making yourself a victim. That's annoying.

And thank you, I did enjoy my stroll.


And,   ShiningRadiance, if any of that was directed at me, you should   understand that my post was meant to END THIS, in the name of civility   and fairness. And my personality remains intact, as it was, is, and   shall be, until it is no more. Don't level platonics at me; I'm   nihilist.

I don't even know you.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 01:29:28 AM by ShiningRadiance »
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Offline DocClox

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2010, 03:34:37 AM »
I was calling exodia childish, not you. Quitting because of a disagreement is childish.
 
You did however say we should both be ashamed. I don't believe I've done anything either shameful or childish, and I don't think I'm playing the victim card in saying so.

  Moving forward blindly is worse than staying still. On the internet, you will find many cowards who hide behind a screen cursing at you. Deal with it, and don't think any lesser of their ideas because of it. It is a natural response to give less weight to someone's argument when it is bathed in hate. However, just because a person is verbally inferior does not mean their ideas match the level of their words.
   
I agree with the sentiment, but disagree that I'm moving forward blindly.

There have been quite a number of things that I thought would make for a better game that I've set aside because of exodia's opposition to them. I didn't want to alienate anyone with exodia's energy and enthusiasm, and a few concessions seemed a small price to pay. Admittedly I changed my mind on those points partly out of anger, but I still think they are good decisions. 

  Now, as for your little 'take' on the main character... personally, I'd make a way to make it easily moddable beforehand. I like the silent character type, because then you can imagine all you want.
   
Yes, and I've got a degree of sympathy for that viewpoint. But it also makes it harder to spin any sort of narrative, or to offer up background details. And the character has never been silent. He speaks, but his dialog is bland and underdeveloped. You can certainly make a case for leaving it that way, but there's a good one for fleshing out his dialogue as well.

    If you set a personality in stone, it very, very often makes the  character inferior. Think as if Link suddenly started talking with an  old-age dialect. He would sound ridiculous,

I wrote one speculative piece where a non player character had an accent. Exodia distorted that to suggest that I wanted to make the PC talk like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins. I'm a little disappointed to find you propagating the notion.

the  majority of people would agree that he's better as a silent protagonist.
 
Exodia invoked the silent majority on several occasions, but generally I don't think he spoke for anyone other than exodia. So I'm a little wary of accepting claims that the majority disagree with me right now.

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, I've no wish to either bash exodia in his absence or rehash arguments I've already made, and this exchange is in danger of doing both. The plan is to put any descriptive text (from the PC's POV or otherwise) into lua events.  Lua is still top of my worklist, so I'm not expecting to add any new passages before that gets done.

As for text already in the game, The only PC-POV text I've added so far are the little musings when the PC takes a walk.  You'll have to live with them for the time being, although I'd have thought they were fairly harmless.  There's also a bit of internal dialogue in the Chun-Li encounter  (which I don't think is particularly well written for what it's worth) but that's already in a .lua file which you can edit to your heart's content. You'll probably improve it no end.

Now, since we don't seem to disagree on anything fundamental, I'd like to let this discussion lapse. Failing that perhaps we could move it out of exodia's modding thread and into general discussion.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 12:43:10 PM by DocClox »

Offline ShiningRadiance

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #137 on: July 11, 2010, 08:14:09 PM »
PM is better. <3
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Offline megamanx

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #138 on: July 11, 2010, 11:59:00 PM »
Now, as for your little 'take' on the main character... personally, I'd make a way to make it easily moddable beforehand. I like the silent character type, because then you can imagine all you want. If you set a personality in stone, it very, very often makes the character inferior. Think as if Link suddenly started talking with an old-age dialect. He would sound ridiculous, and there would naturally be people who would hate that, and people who would like it, but the majority of people would agree that he's better as a silent protagonist.
This I somewhat agree on as it seems that games with a silent protaginist sell more than games with a protaginist that isn't silent one of the few games I know of that sells well with a nonsilent protaginist is the Megaman series and Metal Gear Solid series.  Link would just not seem as cool if he had anything to say but his grunts and yells.  If ShiningRadiance is basing this off of game sales he could be saying it as he sees it not as speaking for a majority
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 12:00:39 AM by megamanx »
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Offline Lorde

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2010, 01:05:27 AM »
This I somewhat agree on as it seems that games with a silent protaginist sell more than games with a protaginist that isn't silent one of the few games I know of that sells well with a nonsilent protaginist is the Megaman series and Metal Gear Solid series.  Link would just not seem as cool if he had anything to say but his grunts and yells.  If ShiningRadiance is basing this off of game sales he could be saying it as he sees it not as speaking for a majority

Lists of lists because I'm tired and bored.

list of game series that sold well with non silent protagonists.
  • Devil may cry
  • God of War
  • Final Fantasy anything
  • Resident evil. (Corny as hell but sells damn well)
  • Mass Effect
  • Silent Hill
Games who's story lines are beloved yet there protagonists are silent.
  • Metroid
  • Zelda
  • Half Life
  • Chronno trigger
Games where the developers admitted that their protagonists didn't speak because of budget constraints and where thankful for fans that harp on about imagination and choice.
  • Dragon Age: Origins. 
Reasons why Link Should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever fucking speak a word ever.
Games you wish the protagonist would just shut the hell up.
  • Street fighter
  • Tekken
  • Fatal Fury
  • Any fighting game for that matter.
  • Any fighting game in English so you can now listen to people Scream "Kick" "Punch" "Kick some more" Punch again" over and over and over again. And so does everyone in your house. They also think you are nuts for playing this game.
Games who's popularity nose dived after the protagonists where no longer silent.
  • Sonic the god damn Hedgehog. (STFU TAILS!)
Characters that came off just as menacing to me as the shit they where fighting just because they didn't say a word.
  • Isaac Clarke ( Did a lot of screaming though... And stomping)
  • Gordon Freeman (His crowbar speaks Volumes.)
Games  where I wished the Protagonist was silent because everything he says is freakin stupid.
  • Star ocean 4: The last hope. (I felt like I just played Love Hina in space. Though no where near as funny.)
Meme's we wouldn't have if all protagonists where silent.
  • I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite store on the   Citadel.
Games I'm currently playing who's storylines suck because the dev's listen to people go on about removing cut scenes and making protagonists silent.
  • Borderlands. (Play this to death though)
Games where the protagonists are silent, but still whine like a bitch in my ear when they get hurt (I wear headphones when I play games.)
  • Fallout 3
  • Elder Scrolls 4
  • Bioshock 1
  • Borderlands (Also laugh like retards when they score criticals)
Games from the above where this is completely and utterly annoying. And every stray bullet pisses me off.
  • Bioshock 1
Reasons why developers make silent protagonists in their game.
  • So you can imagine you are that character. It's cheaper to do, and nobody calls foul on it.
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Offline megamanx

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2010, 04:06:09 AM »
Reasons why developers make silent protagonists in their game.
So you can imagine you are that character. It's cheaper to do, and nobody calls foul on it.
Sadly i think this is another huge reason why there are more silent protagonists as well as most seem to sell better silent.
also the final fantasy series only after FF 7 where there speaking protagonists the ones who spoke were the other party members not the main character
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:08:13 AM by megamanx »
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Offline d31r3x

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2010, 05:27:41 AM »
One of the best line dialog option I found in a game was in TES IV, Dark Brotherhood storyline. The dialog basics was repeatedly selecting the "[stay silent]" line. That seemed to freak people out (except Lucien, who seemed to enjoy it)

'Silent protagonist' looks the same as the 'man without name' used in books and films (Clint Eastwood characters in Sergio Leone's western come to my mind). So making the player look mysterious and cool could be a point. On the other hand, the budget thing does not really matter as WM don't use voice actors (yet...).

Anyway, there seems to be some kind of contradiction in throwing a mysterious silent main character (not that mysterious, we get his background during the game's 'intro') into the city of Crossgate, then go for a walk around town, find a potential girl and choose the line "How are you?" Cool and mysterious -> familiar as neighbour.

So, if WM had to have a silent protagonist, I would go for the whole thing. I mean, first: protagonist could be a man, a woman, a tentacle monster or a talking dog. Second, not only he / she / it is silent, but also has no name. Third, furthermore, we don't get any background about protagonist -instead, we got pieces of background (feasible for any character type, name, gender, etc.) wich are revealed through game advance and are used to "nail" the main plot. I used that setup several times while DM in tabletop rpg (paired with the 'partial loss of memory' ol' trick, several flashbacks / flashforwards, and lots of misinformation to freak the PCs out) and players enjoyed it a lot.

Offline fixet

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2010, 10:49:33 AM »
>Let's mosey

>HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

point is, personality is not inherently a bad thing, just look at rance
I on the silent side, though

Offline Lorde

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2010, 11:06:49 AM »
Sadly i think this is another huge reason why there are more silent protagonists as well as most seem to sell better silent.
also the final fantasy series only after FF 7 where there speaking protagonists the ones who spoke were the other party members not the main character

I submit that games with non Silent protagonists sell just as well as Silent protagonist games. So it's an artistic decision coupled with a historically known way to save money. It still works, nobody complains, so companies still do it. And whether you think games are better with silent or non silent MC's is really personal taste. For me I don't care. (If you noticed, my lists both defended and attacked the position) For me Sometimes it works (Persona, Half Life) Sometimes it doesn't work (Borderlands, Bioshock) And sometimes I prefer them talking (Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid)

Also only 4 of the 13 Main final Fantasies had Silent MC's. In JP naming conventions those where 1, 3, 5 and 11. With all the rebooting and rerebooting that was done by SE for the ds though,I think that number was dropped down to 2 or 1. (Not sure if they rerebooted 5 for the ds. probably not.) 11 just felt like I was some mute mook watching characters more awesome than mine doing things to save the world. Your MC was more of a silent audience in that game and in no way a protagonist so it probably doesn't count.  (After all, you can't leave the fate of the world in the hands of a person that constantly gets there ass kicked by rabbits. )

  One of the best line dialog option I found in a game was in TES IV, Dark   Brotherhood storyline. The dialog basics was repeatedly selecting the   "[stay silent]" line. That seemed to freak people out (except Lucien,   who seemed to enjoy it)
 
 
 


And that's a perfect example of when it works. (I gave an example above where it doesn't.) Also, I found the Dark Brotherhood storyline 5 times better than (and the other guild storylines twice as good as) ES4's Main quest line. And that's the problem with silent protagonists. Because you are focusing all the players thoughts into his character, they jolly well better be the ones to summon the ultimate dragon god to defeat the giant demon god in the city. Not the Emo mook turned Faux William Wallace you have been dragging around the whole game.
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Offline fires_flair

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2010, 11:49:56 PM »
oh, just in case any one wants it I have a media fire link for the redux pack.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qmihrownnyn

Offline ShiningRadiance

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2010, 02:06:50 AM »
I know it's not a game, but...

Twilight has a nonsilent protagonist. <_< >_> Just sayin', just cause something sells well doesn't necessarily mean it's good. It just means that they're popular. Popularity requires some degree of 'good', but is highly defined by other factors as well.

The point is to make characters that people like. As I kinda pointed out with Dr. Who-- Clox in pm, or maybe here? I can't remember... silent protagonists usually prevent a bad character from popping out. But you CAN have better characters. As far as I can see, it's better to have a 0-dimensional character than a 2-dimensional character, because then the 0-dimensional character won't be called a 2-dimensional character. But hey. Some people like Jared from Fire Emblem RD better than they like Minato Arisato... oh wait. No they don't. However, some people like Snake more than they like Souji Seta. A lot of people, probably.

Again. Good character/Good Silent Character > Silent Character > Bad Character, and it's a bit hard to capture awesome that most people will like. I'm just repeating myself...
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Offline d31r3x

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2010, 05:50:47 AM »
Twilight has a nonsilent protagonist. <_< >_> Just sayin', just cause something sells well doesn't necessarily mean it's good. It just means that they're popular. Popularity requires some degree of 'good', but is highly defined by other factors as well.

Well, at this point it seems WM is still a game for a minority... so I   think we don't have to bother about popularity (yet).
 
  I'm not parting with silent or nonsilent. What I meant in the last post   is that either way it could make a good game, given it's done properly.   If you go silent, make it cool. (see Lorde list for more details on that   subject  ;) ) And if you want   to build a believeable MC, give him a background, some dialog lines wich   can match or shape his personality and add sidequests that can further   develop character. The later one is the way it looks WM is going, and   maybe some complaints about dialogs added and such could be blamed to   the fact that the main character game's mechanics are still in   development. I bet people that are not yet convinced about a nonsilent   character would not think the same way if they were given the final   version instead of this beta (let us don't forget betas are for develop /   testing purpose)
 
  Having said that (and to add even more confusion to my nonsilent vs.   silent positioning), I have to admit I like the no-name protagonist as a   figure of speech / literary device (sorry, din't find any suitable   translation).

Offline Lorde

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2010, 10:16:08 AM »
I know it's not a game, but...

Twilight has a nonsilent protagonist. <_< >_> Just sayin'

This is a bad example. Twilight would still suck even if it was a string of silent movies.

 
  I'm not parting with silent or nonsilent. What I meant in the last post   is that either way it could make a good

Which seems to be the general consensus now.

To elaborate:
Silent can be good, non silent can be good. But both need to have strong source material in order to be good.

You can screw up a silent character just as easily as a non silent one if your source material sucks.

Also, why are we even arguing this for Whoremaster? The game is still in development (People seem to forget we are in beta. Shows how good the devs really are that we where given something actually playable in alpha.) When it's 2 decades old and it's set a certain way in the minds of millions, then we can argue with them about not changing anything.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 10:10:58 PM by Lorde »
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Offline DocClox

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
Again. Good character/Good Silent Character > Silent Character > Bad Character, and it's a bit hard to capture awesome that most people will like. I'm just repeating myself...

You are at that. So much for settling this via PM.

I've got an idea: instead of passing judgement on code that's yet to be written, why not use some of that intelligence and eloquence to help out instead? Some constructive criticism on your part would make a very welcome change.

Offline Mehzerz

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Re: Megapack REDUX EDITION
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2010, 11:05:25 AM »
I've got an idea: instead of passing judgement on code that's yet to be written, why not use some of that intelligence and eloquence to help out instead? Some constructive criticism on your part would make a very welcome change.


Beat me to it. I was just about to say, where'd this whole thing come from? I hadn't seen anything to suggest the players personality.


In any event if we are going to have this discussion again... (and i'm not sure why it's here of all places)
As far as modding goes, silent is just easier for people to come in and make their own events. With a particular personality, the players personality can and most likely will become construed and distorted. Other than that I don't see why anyone would care one way or the other.



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