Author Topic: Traits, Stats and Skill Discussion  (Read 92537 times)

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Offline aevojoey

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2014, 03:25:40 PM »
I am now adding some traits to the levelup check:
Every 5 levels the girl has a chance to gain or lose a trait.
There used to be only 7 traits that she could gain.
Now I split it up into 4 categories:
5% gain rare, 45% gain common, 45% lose common, 5% lose rare,
Some of the rare will be in both the gain and the lose sections.

These are some of the traits that will be available to lose or gain (I have not sorted them all yet)
"Alcoholic", "Cum Addict", "Smoker", "Social Drinker"

"Lesbian", "Bisexual", "Straight"
"Fake Orgasm Expert", "Fast Orgasms", "Slow Orgasms"
"Deep Throat", "No Gag Reflex", "Gag Reflex", "Strong Gag Reflex"

"Delicate", "Fragile", "Strong", "Tough"
"Idol",
"Broken Will", "Iron Will","Dependant", "Fearless",
"Quick Learner", "Slow Learner",


"Adventurer", "Aggressive", "Agile", "Audacity", "Charismatic", "Charming", "Clumsy", "Cool Person", "Elegant", "Exhibitionist",
"Fleet of Foot", "Good Kisser", "Meek", "Nervous", "Nimble Tongue", "Nymphomaniac", "Open Minded", "Optimist", "Pessimist", "Sexy Air", "Slut",



If any should be removed or added let me know.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 05:30:19 PM by aevojoey »
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Offline 0nymous

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2014, 03:43:47 PM »
I am now adding some traits to the levelup check:
Every 5 levels the girl has a chance to gain or loos a trait.
There used to be only 7 traits that she could gain.
Now I split it up into 4 categories:
5% gain rare, 45% gain common, 45% loose common, 5% loose rare,
Some of the rare will be in both the gain and the loose sections.

These are some of the traits that will be available to loose or gain (I have not sorted them all yet)
"Alcoholic", "Cum Addict", "Smoker", "Social Drinker"

"Lesbian", "Bisexual", "Straight"
"Fake Orgasm Expert", "Fast Orgasms", "Slow Orgasms"
"Deep Throat", "No Gag Reflex", "Gag Reflex", "Strong Gag Reflex"

"Delicate", "Fragile", "Strong", "Tough"
"Idol",
"Broken Will", "Iron Will","Dependant", "Fearless",
"Quick Learner", "Slow Learner",


"Adventurer", "Aggressive", "Agile", "Audacity", "Charismatic", "Charming", "Clumsy", "Cool Person", "Elegant", "Exhibitionist",
"Fleet of Foot", "Good Kisser", "Meek", "Nervous", "Nimble Tongue", "Nymphomaniac", "Open Minded", "Optimist", "Pessimist", "Sexy Air", "Slut",



If any should be removed or added let me know.


Just gonna go ahead and pull a quick grammar nazi on you and point out that "loose" is an adjective (i.e. loose cannon) and the word you're looking for is simply "lose".


Traits lost on levelup? Seems a bit against what the purpose of leveling up is, don't you think?
A girl has a chance to gain negative traits as well? Such as "Strong Gag Reflex", "Delicate", "Iron Will", "Fearless", "Slow Learner" etc.?


IMO the system is too unpredictably flexible and may cause some people to savescum in order to keep traits they want on their girls.
I'm gonna propose something completely different and radical - award a girl a "Trait point" on leveling up and let YOU choose which trait she'll learn.
With the common traits costing one trait point and the better, rarer ones costing up to five.
Not only would it give you more control to push girls in directions you want them to, it also adds a really nice incentive for you to to level up your girls at all.

Offline dmotrl

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Re: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2014, 04:45:15 PM »
It could allow more variation to the game, the bank and city hall closed on weekends, Holidays, actual birthdays for the girls and the player.
Still somewhat doable - you could have the 'week' advance a number of days so you eventually get a weekend instead of just going "Week +1."  You could also occasionally have the game run a check to see if a Holiday or other Event is occurring - maybe a monster gets out of control at the Arena, meaning you can't use it that day (but you don't have to pay for it); or the Guards are stepping up security because of gang fighting, so walking around for Girls gets you fined if you have high Suspicion and/or are obviously Evil.
 
Traits lost on levelup? Seems a bit against what the purpose of leveling up is, don't you think?
Losing the Pessimist/Slow Learner/Dependent Traits seems like it would be in-line with 'leveling up,' although it may make more sense depending on PC choices (personally, I would like the chance for Pessimist to be lost on level-up, since I tend to Chat with Pessimists to keep their Happiness up, as the other option is either use an Item to remove Pessimist or stuff them with Ice Cream).  Likewise the addiction traits should be capable of being lost (assuming they haven't been able to get their fix).

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A girl has a chance to gain negative traits as well? Such as "Strong Gag Reflex", "Delicate", "Iron Will", "Fearless", "Slow Learner" etc.?
I would hope so.  It seems to follow the "against the purpose of leveling up" paradigm, but it indicates that the character is growing, even if it's not in a 'favorable' direction.

Offline aevojoey

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2014, 05:41:23 PM »
As I said, I have not sorted them all yet.
The list is by no means final and not all will be gainable or losable.
The losable traits would be the negative traits.


I'm gonna propose something completely different and radical - award a girl a "Trait point" on leveling up and let YOU choose which trait she'll learn.
With the common traits costing one trait point and the better, rarer ones costing up to five.
Not only would it give you more control to push girls in directions you want them to, it also adds a really nice incentive for you to to level up your girls at all.
I like that idea but it will require a lot of coding.
I will see what I can do.



For now I removed some of what I changed.
It is back to the old 7 traits plus a couple of new ones.
"Agile", "Charismatic", "Charming", "Cool Person", "Fake Orgasm Expert", "Fleet of Foot", "Good Kisser", "Nimble Tongue", "Nymphomaniac", "Open Minded", "Sexy Air"
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 06:15:13 PM by aevojoey »
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Offline 0nymous

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2014, 09:14:23 AM »
I like that idea but it will require a lot of coding.
I will see what I can do.


That's why I used the word "radical". I'm aware it'd be hard to code but I still think it's the best solution for the levelup system.
I'm simply not a big fan of any RNG-based systems, since like I said, some people will simply keep on reloading if they get results they don't want.


Removing traits would cost trait points as well. So you COULD get rid of traits you don't want, but hey, nothing's for free.


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I would hope so.  It seems to follow the "against the purpose of leveling up" paradigm, but it indicates that the character is growing, even if it's not in a 'favorable' direction.

I don't know... for me "growth in an unfavorable direction" is not growth at all, but stagnation or regression.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 09:16:07 AM by 0nymous »

Offline aevojoey

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2014, 11:15:31 PM »
I am making some of the new and old traits mutually exclusive.
I am also:
 - sorting them in a logical order for when they get used later.
 - adding the new traits to the fetish type calculation

"Flat Chest", "Petite Breasts", "Small Boobs", (no trait), "Busty Boobs",  "Big Boobs", "Giant Juggs", "Massive Melons", "Abnormally Large Boobs", "Titanic Tits"

"Dry Milk", "Scarce Lactation", (no trait), "Abundant Lactation", "Cow Tits"

"Inverted Nipples", (no trait), "Perky Nipples"
"Puffy Nipples" is not exclusive to any others

"Sterile", (no trait), "Fertile"

"Straight", (no trait), "Bisexual", "Lesbian"

"Strong Gag Reflex", "Gag Reflex", (no trait), "No Gag Reflex", "Deep Throat"


I am going to work on converting all traits to use the "StatTr"/"SkillTr" instead of directly affecting the stat or skill.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:12:39 AM by aevojoey »
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Offline Hazure

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2014, 03:35:03 AM »
On the mutually exclusive stats you might want to have the one given on a random girl the center with a random paramater for how far the trait will stray from that....as in a girl with small boobs(2) could go down two traits and get flat....or up two and not have anything.  Conversely a small boobs(0) would only have small boobs.....but I see that on these scales every girl would have a trait...even if it's the non-trait.

Offline ncquolopow

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2014, 04:45:50 AM »
Yeah it's a good idea to make some traits mutually exclusive or to get rid of some redundant ones.

Some others I came across that seem redundant:

(a) Clumsy, Dojikko- It seems like either both would be traits a girl would have, or neither. I understand that they're under different trait categories. But if we will be keeping both traits, then in the editor, selecting one should automatically select the other.

(b) Broken Will, Mindfucked- Should it be possible for a girl to have a Broken Will but not be Mindfucked? Or be Mindfucked but not a Broken Will?

(c) Broodmother, Deluxe Derriere, Flat Ass, Great Arse, Great Figure, Hourglass Figure, Large Hips, Long Legs, Mature Body, Phat Booty, Plump Tush, Tight Butt, Wide Bottom- At the moment, it's possible to have, for example, Deluxe Derriere and Flat Ass active simultaneously. It's also possible to have a Hourglass Figure but not a Great Figure or Mature Body (for the majority of people I don't think this makes sense). Or have Wide Bottom or be a Broodmother but not Large Hips (going by the descriptions this shouldn't be possible). In general, there's some overlap among these traits and some should be either mutually exclusive with others and some should either be automatically activated by a combination of other active traits, or should simply be discarded for redundancy.

With regards to (c), you could organize the figures and ass traits from petite->shapely/large just like you did with breasts. So given the current set of traits, it could be arranged like this:

Figure traits- (no trait), Great Figure, Hourglass Figure (I'm thinking Great Figure is a "S" shaped figure but not as exaggerated as Hourglass. You could also add Pear, Banana, and Apple shapes for an adequate amount of completeness...although interpreting anything other than Hourglass Figure into in-game stats is much harder since in the real world, there isn't really a strong consensus about the attractiveness of the latter three.)

Ass traits- Flat Ass, Tight Butt, (no trait), Deluxe Derriere, Plump Tush, Wide Bottom, Phat Booty (not sure about the order of Plump Tush and Wide Bottom...those two can be switched)

Hip traits- (no trait), Large Hips (could add a Small Hips trait for completeness)

Leg traits- (no trait), Long Legs (could add a Short Legs trait for completeness)

I'm don't really want to discard Mature Body or Broodmother, but I don't see where they fit at the moment. Maybe discard both but add Broodmother Hips after Large Hips in the Hip traits.

As for new traits, there's a lot of possibilities simply regarding physical features. But, I'd be happy just by having some traits dealing with facial attractiveness because besides a girl's figure, that's usually the other main factor used to rate a girl's attractiveness. But for the sake of simplicity, the traits wouldn't directly reference facial structure, symmetry, etc. but rather the traits would be more general-- like the traits implemented above. So for example, something like: Ugly Face, (no trait), Pretty Face, Gorgeous Face. My command of vocabulary is rather limited, so hopefully someone can come up with better/more colorful adjectives like the ones used in the Ass traits.

Also, it would be nice if in the editor, there was better documentation on what each trait does. For example, Big Boobs says "+ looks", Masochist gives "+BDSM, +Constitution", and Broken Will gives "+Obedience, -Spirit." But for many other traits, the in-game effect is not apparent. So my suggestion is to either hide the in-game effect completely, or show the in-game effect for all traits. Another suggestion I have is also to document what each in-game stat does as well. I personally would like to know the relationship between Obedience, Spirit, Confidence, and Rebelliousness, as I often break in unruly girls who refuse jobs or run away. Or the relationship between Constitution and Tiredness. Or what Mana does. Or what the exact effect of increasing Agility has on combat, stripping, or sex.

Last thing (a little off-topic), I think willingness to perform a certain job should have nothing to do with how long a girl has been performing it. Let "X" be a job. Then, for example, if I make a girl do X and she starts out "dislikes X," she usually refuses that job for several weeks. During those weeks, I usually discipline her and keep her doing the same job. Then, after many weeks of disciplining her and basically forcing her to do X, she gets good at it and starts to like it more and more. That doesn't quite make sense. While it is possible for some girls to grow to like her job even when forced to do it, realistically most people hate doing something that they're forced to do, especially when they had no interest in it in the first place. For example, a girl with maxed 100 on all Sex stats shouldn't necessarily ever enjoy having sex as a whore (and on the flip side a girl with no sexual talent/experience shouldn't necessarily dislike sex as a whore either).

But a realistic implementation of changes in willingness will vary based on each girl's personality and therefore a lot more extra variables and time spent on figuring out good math formulas. Therefore, I think the easiest way to model real-life behavior is to introduce max caps to stats. So a girl that is not naturally talented in, say, Performance, will have a cap of 80 or whatever sub-100 number you decide is appropriate. This should apply to not only the stats we see in the editor but also to the stats dealing with willingness to perform certain jobs. And if caps are implemented, setting initial and max caps for "willingness stats" should be available through the editor as well. The downside to this of course is that girl files will increase in size (I don't think this is a big deal as .girlsx files are insignificant compared to image files anyway), current girl files will be broken (this can be fixed in the same way "Add Missing Sex Skills On Load" does it however), and that any references to the current cap of 100 will need to be redirected to the appropriate max cap stat--which will likely be tedious. But in the end you will have much more flavor/variety/tougher decisionmaking in the game and the girls you have will actually feel unique. I think it's worth the pain, but then again I'm not the one programming  :D .

Edit: If you're going to add max caps, min caps could also be added since if a girl is talented at something, it's hard to believe she would ever reach "0" skill at that something.

Edit 2: Forgot Fragile and Delicate as redundant traits...or could someone explain how they're different?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 05:17:24 AM by ncquolopow »

Offline Hazure

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2014, 06:56:05 AM »
I believe the trait Broodmother is for the furries who produce multiple births....and delicate is for china doll types rather than weak girls.

Offline 0nymous

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2014, 09:10:41 AM »
(a) Clumsy, Dojikko- It seems like either both would be traits a girl would have, or neither. I understand that they're under different trait categories. But if we will be keeping both traits, then in the editor, selecting one should automatically select the other.
From my understanding:
Clumsy is the "god damn I can't believe you fucking broke all this shit again why are you such a failure" kind of trait.
Dojikko is the "awww she just tripped and faceplanted onto the floor isn't she just adorable?" kind of trait.
Hip traits- (no trait), Large Hips (could add a Small Hips trait for completeness)Leg traits- (no trait), Long Legs (could add a Short Legs trait for completeness)

I realize I'm not really in position to argue against this, what with me being responsible for 6 different tit and ass traits, but where do we stop? I believe the most important parts of a woman's body that should be extensively covered by traits in the game of this nature are tits and ass. For the rest, one trait is enough IMO - so one trait for legs, one for hips, one for lips, one for hands, and whatever else body part could be have sexual use. Because, let's face it - any body part of a woman could have that use by an extension, but that sure doesn't mean we need dozens of traits to describe them.
Ass traits- Flat Ass, Tight Butt, (no trait), Deluxe Derriere, Plump Tush, Wide Bottom, Phat Booty (not sure about the order of Plump Tush and Wide Bottom...those two can be switched)


Actually, Tight Butt was meant to be "better" than the traitless ass shape. It was intended as the kind of shape that's not really big, but definitely more quality that most"standard issue" asses. You can Google image "tight butt" itself to roughly get the results of what I mean.

Wide Bottom was never fully intended to include ass only - it refers to hips and thighs as well. I thought it's a bit pointless to make a whole different tier of ladders for thighs and hip sizes, so I just wrote "Wide Bottom" - "bottom" in the name referring to anything below the girl's torso, basically.

I understand you sorted these by an order of size, instead of general quality? I imagined that if ordered by size it would be:
Flat Ass -> (traitless)-> Tight Butt -> Plump Tush -> Deluxe Derriere -> Phat Booty
By quality itself (highest stat bonuses), Deluxe Derriere would be at the very top, however.

I realize the names are ambiguous as hell and there's no real indication of difference in the descriptions of ass shapes and sizes but I did what I thought was most fun.

I'm don't really want to discard Mature Body or Broodmother, but I don't see where they fit at the moment. Maybe discard both but add Broodmother Hips after Large Hips in the Hip traits.


Mature Body was made for women who look like MILFs but technically aren't ones.

The traits could and should be mutually exclusive. They're basically the same thing - aside from that single, formal technicality of actually giving birth to something.
Broodmother on the other hand is the hyper-emphasis of the MILF trait.
I could see all three becoming a separate tier of their own; based on how much births the woman went through.
0 births with a grown body of a woman ready to breed -> at least one birth complimenting her mature body -> 10 (or maybe a higher threshold?) births  that completely altered her body's shape
Mature Body -> MILF -> Broodmother


Also, it would be nice if in the editor, there was better documentation on what each trait does. For example, Big Boobs says "+ looks", Masochist gives "+BDSM, +Constitution", and Broken Will gives "+Obedience, -Spirit." But for many other traits, the in-game effect is not apparent. So my suggestion is to either hide the in-game effect completely, or show the in-game effect for all traits. Another suggestion I have is also to document what each in-game stat does as well. I personally would like to know the relationship between Obedience, Spirit, Confidence, and Rebelliousness, as I often break in unruly girls who refuse jobs or run away. Or the relationship between Constitution and Tiredness. Or what Mana does. Or what the exact effect of increasing Agility has on combat, stripping, or sex.

I propose adding a small window that would pop up once you hover over the trait with your mouse cursor, that would describe exactly what technical effects on the stats the trait has.
Same for items.
The text wouldn't even be editable, it would just appear based on the stat/trait modifying data.
Just to avoid the weird "+looks" or "+CHA" in the trait/item descriptions.
I don't know how possible this is to code, however.


If you're going to add max caps, min caps could also be added since if a girl is talented at something, it's hard to believe she would ever reach "0" skill at that something.

I was suggesting a system exactly about the min/max stat caps you're describing for quite a while now and made a preeeetty big point about this... here:
http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=1031.msg29712#msg29712

Forgot Fragile and Delicate as redundant traits...or could someone explain how they're different?

They're not. Delicate was my proposition of replacement to Fragile. I think it fits better when describing a woman.

Aevo basically added all traits proposed and kept all the old ones for the sake of keeping the old girl files viable. I imagine this will get sorted out somehow in the future.


I believe the trait Broodmother is for the furries who produce multiple births....and delicate is for china doll types rather than weak girls.


Wha-no. At least that wasn't my intent when I proposed both of these traits. Uh, actually, to be fair, aevo added a trait named "Brood mother" on his own, and I merely asked for it to be spelled together.
I definitely think there was no intent to make Broodmother furry-exclusive.
I like your reasoning behind "Fragile" and "Delicate" but in the end, they are still synonymous terms.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:27:50 AM by 0nymous »

Offline dmotrl

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2014, 12:22:39 PM »
I don't know... for me "growth in an unfavorable direction" is not growth at all, but stagnation or regression.
It sounds like you're looking at it from "These are characters in a video game, and they should only Improve because that makes them better for me," while I'm looking at things like Fearless, Iron Will, and Delicate and seeing "Okay, I can see how a person would develop those traits (based on certain choices)."  For example, Fearless and Iron Will could be the result of the character 'breaking' - not so much that they develop Broken Will, but to the point that they don't care about the drawbacks that could result from their actions so long as they're able to lash out *now*.  Delicate would be the result of pampering - few or no risks, immediate care for any injuries, and high-quality rooms.  Slow Learner would be from frequent damage - too much Torture/BDSM, frequently losing in the Catacombs or Arena, and so on.  Strong Gag Reflex ... :shrug: Maybe the girl has a bad personal experience with oral sex, or sees something that could happen, and either refuses to do it (personal choice) or develops a psychological aversion (Reflexive).
 
Edit:  Or either of the -Dere traits could be more likely to go to any of the girls who work at your House (because they start seeing you as "theirs" and not wanting anyone else), or Iron Will could lower the chance of a girl generating a "Beneficial" trait because they're resistant to the idea of being a whore.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:32:03 PM by dmotrl »

Offline aevojoey

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2014, 01:26:35 PM »
Good input.
Not time to respond to everything but some main points:

The talk of skill/stat limiting here actually gave me a great idea of how to do it.
Because I am already changing stats/skills to use a separate number to use trait modifiers, instead of making it an addition, I can make it a multiplication.
So traits are taken into account and the stat/skill is multiplied by a trait modifier.
(base+temp+item)*(trait)

"Delicate flower", "Fragile as glass"
<Trait Name="Delicate" Desc="This girl is a delicate flower. She gets tired quickly and bruises easily if she's hit." Type="Action" />
<Trait Name="Fragile" Desc="This girl is fragile and gets hurt or tired easy. (easy to hurt)" Type="Action" />
Delicate is someone who gets tired easily.
Fragile is someone who gets injured easily.
They are both on the tiredness and injury scales but opposing sides but are not mutually exclusive.
I changed the description for delicate to reflect this better.

The description for the traits in WME are taken directly from the CoreTraits.traits(x) file.
Eventually, when I code the trait modifiers into the CoreTraits.traitsx file, WME will be able to edit them like the girls with every modifier shown and editable.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:29:23 PM by aevojoey »
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Offline ncquolopow

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2014, 02:04:41 PM »
I don't know how to quote properly (i.e. with the poster's name I'm replying to + timestamp) so bear with me.

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From my understanding:
Clumsy is the "god damn I can't believe you fucking broke all this shit again why are you such a failure" kind of trait.
Dojikko is the "awww she just tripped and faceplanted onto the floor isn't she just adorable?" kind of trait.

Ah I see. But there are 2 problems here: One is that this is your personal interpretation, and while I don't dislike that interpretation, deciding to check/uncheck these traits depends on the developer's interpretation since that's what the in-game stat effects depend on. So it would be nice to know what that interpretation is. The other problem is that there still remains the issue of redundancy. By this interpretation, a girl could be clumsy but not dojikko, but a girl could not be dojikko without being clumsy. So by this interpretation, checking Dojikko in the editor should also check Clumsy, and unchecking Clumsy should uncheck Dojikko.

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I propose adding a small window that would pop up once you hover over the trait with your mouse cursor, that would describe exactly what technical effects on the stats the trait has.
Same for items.
The text wouldn't even be editable, it would just appear based on the stat/trait modifying data.
Just to avoid the weird "+looks" or "+CHA" in the trait/item descriptions.
I don't know how possible this is to code, however.

I completely agree with this. And I don't think it would be hard to implement at all.

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I was suggesting a system exactly about the min/max stat caps you're describing for quite a while now and made a preeeetty big point about this... here:
http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=1031.msg29712#msg29712

Right, I completely agree with you here as well. Implementing caps would make the game more realistic and give the girls uniqueness. At the moment, which girl you choose for a job only matters in the first few weeks. But after a long period of time, the girls working at the same job all end up about the same. So the game is currently boring and not very immersive. You lose a girl? No problem, just get a random girl on that job and in a few months you won't be able to tell the difference. Unique girls would encourage the player to actually manage...to look out for his most talented/prized girls and make sure they're doing a job befitting their talent, that they're healthy, etc.

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They're not. Delicate was my proposition of replacement to Fragile. I think it fits better when describing a woman.

Aevo basically added all traits proposed and kept all the old ones for the sake of keeping the old girl files viable. I imagine this will get sorted out somehow in the future.

Yeah I'm thinking Fragile is an adjective better suited for...uh things you'd put in a box. Items/merchandise and such. So Fragile should just be discarded in favor of Delicate or Dainty.

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Wha-no. At least that wasn't my intent when I proposed both of these traits. Uh, actually, to be fair, aevo added a trait named "Brood mother" on his own, and I merely asked for it to be spelled together.
I definitely think there was no intent to make Broodmother furry-exclusive.
I like your reasoning behind "Fragile" and "Delicate" but in the end, they are still synonymous terms.

Yeah the current description in the editor is "Her mighty thick thighs and body are capable of giving birth to children by the dozens." So I don't see how it's furry-exclusive. Still there remains the problem of possible redundancy...

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I realize I'm not really in position to argue against this, what with me being responsible for 6 different tit and ass traits, but where do we stop? I believe the most important parts of a woman's body that should be extensively covered by traits in the game of this nature are tits and ass. For the rest, one trait is enough IMO - so one trait for legs, one for hips, one for lips, one for hands, and whatever else body part could be have sexual use. Because, let's face it - any body part of a woman could have that use by an extension, but that sure doesn't mean we need dozens of traits to describe them.

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Actually, Tight Butt was meant to be "better" than the traitless ass shape. It was intended as the kind of shape that's not really big, but definitely more quality that most"standard issue" asses. You can Google image "tight butt" itself to roughly get the results of what I mean.

Wide Bottom was never fully intended to include ass only - it refers to hips and thighs as well. I thought it's a bit pointless to make a whole different tier of ladders for thighs and hip sizes, so I just wrote "Wide Bottom" - "bottom" in the name referring to anything below the girl's torso, basically.

I understand you sorted these by an order of size, instead of general quality? I imagined that if ordered by size it would be:
Flat Ass -> (traitless)-> Tight Butt -> Plump Tush -> Deluxe Derriere -> Phat Booty
By quality itself (highest stat bonuses), Deluxe Derriere would be at the very top, however.

I realize the names are ambiguous as hell and there's no real indication of difference in the descriptions of ass shapes and sizes but I did what I thought was most fun.
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Mature Body was made for women who look like MILFs but technically aren't ones.
The traits could and should be mutually exclusive. They're basically the same thing - aside from that single, formal technicality of actually giving birth to something.
Broodmother on the other hand is the hyper-emphasis of the MILF trait.
I could see all three becoming a separate tier of their own; based on how much births the woman went through.
0 births with a grown body of a woman ready to breed -> at least one birth complimenting her mature body -> 10 (or maybe a higher threshold?) births  that completely altered her body's shape
Mature Body -> MILF -> Broodmother

I understand your concern about too many traits. And while I suppose every body part could have some sexual or non-sexual use, I'm not exactly suggesting "wide nostrils," "innie belly button," or "high forearm-neck circumference ratio"  :D . I'm trying to keep the physical traits to ones that most players would focus on or that would actually have a significant impact on the jobs the girls are doing. For example, large vs. small hands wouldn't really matter for most straight guys realistically when it comes to sex. Even if it were a handjob, I don't think hand size would have as large an effect on a guy's excitation as the girl's overall figure and face. Something like hand size just wouldn't come into play in this game sexually or otherwise...unless the girl could be a basketball/football player or something lol.

I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that tits and ass aren't central in this game. But, I believe the face is also very important and is usually in the top 5 body parts a straight guy will use to rate a girl's attractiveness: tits, waist, ass, legs, face in varying order depending on the guy (or you could simplify it to figure and face). I don't know for certain, but I'd venture to guess that most straight guys would rather have a girl with a cute face and average tits+waist+ass+legs than a girl with fantastic tits+waist+ass+legs but a masculine/unattractive face. Either way, face should be important enough to include in this game (we should have a poll!).

So, without further ado, this is what I'm thinking currently for physical feature traits:

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Must Haves

Figure type (banana, apple, pear, hourglass, etc...or simply "bad figure," "good figure," "great figure," etc.)
Tits size (Flat, A, B, C, D, DD, etc...or small, big, abnormally big, etc.)
Tits quality (saggy/drooping, shapely, perky, firm are some good adjectives but will take a little more thought to order these...if ordering is necessary at all)
Hips size (boyish/small, big/shapely, childbearing, etc.)
Ass size (same idea)
Ass quality (we can use some of your colorful adjectives here 0nymous)
Leg length (short, long...no need for a lot of traits here...short should negatively impact looks, long is good for looks)
Leg quality (stick-thin, shapely, etc...this trait covers thighs btw)
Facial attractiveness (ugly, pretty, cute, gorgeous, angelic, etc.)
Lip fullness (thin, plump/full, dick-sucking lips, etc.)

Optional

Height (midget, short, tall, abnormally tall, etc.)
Hair length (bald, boyish/short, neck-length, shoulder-length, waist-length, ass-length, etc.)
Eyelash length (short, long...maybe just long. Not a lot needed here.)
Makeup quality (um...not sure but I'm sure someone else can come up with good adjectives)
Perfume quality (same as with makeup)
============

Yes, this is a lot of traits compared to where we are now. But, I think it really is necessary to have this many traits to adequately describe a girl physically. Previously, you could have Big Boobs and that would automatically give your girl +looks. But what if those tits are saggy? Well that's what a tits quality trait would cover. The same thing applies to asses: Like you said, it seems you lumped size and quality together for the ass traits. But, is it not possible--or probable enough--to have a saggy ass but a big one?

We can even cut some traits out if someone feels it's too many traits to implement. Figure type is still somewhat redundant with tit, hip, and ass sizes. So either figure type could be discarded, or tit, hip, and ass sizes could collectively be discarded. Height, eyelash length, makeup quality, and perfume quality are pretty important (the latter three would simply be positive modifiers to looks/beauty, while  with height being too tall or short would negatively impact looks/beauty), but by no means as important as the ones under "Must Haves." Hair length being short would likely negatively impact looks/beauty but be more advantageous in combat or other athletic activities (won't get in the way)...but again is a relatively minor factor and therefore is optional.

Regardless of how many of the proposed traits are implemented, I disagree 0nymous, with your opinion that two is the minimum number of traits to stick to per category. I actually think three is the magic number. Why? For example, let's take a look at the currently available lip fullness traits. We only have one--Dick-Sucking Lips--thus effectively we have two due to the default no trait being normal lips. This fulfills your requirement. But, this leaves out the other side--Thin Lips, which would, say, negatively impact the quality of a BJ. In general, I think at least both sides of the default should be represented once to be realistic enough (i.e. let's try not to discard a lot of probable cases). The only category in the above list I would only have two traits in would be Eyelash Length, with one being the default lack of trait and the other being "Long Eyelashes."

For translation of traits into in-game stats (assuming quality and size are separate), we could give more weight to quality than size (I think that's realistic anyway). So going back to the saggy boobs example, if Big Boobs gives +1 to looks, then Saggy Boobs would probably need to subtract at least 2 because I think most guys would think that large boobs that are saggy make a girl less physically attractive. Similarly, if say a girl had Small Boobs, giving -1 to looks, but they were Perky Boobs or Firm Boobs, then Perky Boobs or Firm Boobs would add at least 2 to have a positive net effect on a girl's attractiveness. Of course there are issues with subjectivity--some guys find small boobs attractive but big boobs a turnoff for example--but we should aim to please most of the crowd. Pleasing everyone to a significant extent is possible, however, but would most likely require allowing people to config the trait stat effects.

About the Mature Body->MILF->Broodmother thing, yeah I think that's good and should get it's own category.

Sorry for my rambling and lack of organization, but hopefully I got my points across.

tldr;

1. Discard Fragile as it is redundant with Delicate. Thanks for clearing this part up Aevojoey.
2. The answer to "but where do we stop" is "just a little more."  ;)
3. Size and quality should be separate. Possible overlap between figure and some sizes so some reduction in traits can be made there.
4. Minimum of two traits other than the default of no trait to cover majority of cases.
5. Mature Body, MILF, Broodmother should be placed together in their own category.
6. How do I insert quotes properly?  :D
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:41:21 PM by ncquolopow »

Offline aevojoey

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 03:40:11 PM by aevojoey »
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Offline 0nymous

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Re: Traits Discussion - formerly: I am currently adding new traits
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2014, 07:07:30 PM »

Ah I see. But there are 2 problems here: One is that this is your personal interpretation
Actually, it's not. I wasn't responsible for suggesting the "Dojikko" trait (and the "Clumsy" trait has been in the game since forever).
Not only that, but "dojikko" is a term clearly defined that's not really up to anyone's interpretation, be it mine or the developer's. Straight outta the almighty Wikipedia:
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Generally, the girl is pretty and cute or so sweet and innocent that readers are expected to like her. She repeatedly fails in everyday house and school activities, like housework, sport competitions, even simply walking. She frequently falls, runs into things, or trips over the lowest obstacles. Even though she is annoyed at her misfortunes, a dojikko always shows her good side and regrets messing things up.Examples of dojikkos' behaviour include slipping on stairs, knocking over a drink, breaking a dish while serving customers, and other such slapstick.
But yeah, mutual exclusivity rule applies here, I believe.
Yeah I'm thinking Fragile is an adjective better suited for...uh things you'd put in a box. Items/merchandise and such. So Fragile should just be discarded in favor of Delicate or Dainty.
Alright, now I'm getting freaked out. I used nearly identical wording here: http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=3433.msg28266#msg28266

Well, it wasn't what I suggested when proposing Delicate, but aevo managed to think of something better than just replacing Fragile so that's more than fair game to me.
So, without further ado, this is what I'm thinking currently for physical feature traits:

Ehhh, I don't know. I'm kind of skeptical about your long list of "Must Haves" as traits. I'll have to stand by my opinion that one trait per a girl's figure, lips, legs and hips is enough.
I'd also argue with the need of splitting tit/ass traits into tiers based on quality and size. I mean... how do you define the quality of an ass if not by its size? Its shape, I guess, but that's still very limited.
You have to keep in mind, it wasn't long ago when we had nothing but two different traits for tits; one for huge ones and the other for even huger ones.
I never intended to stray too far from that kind of mechanic, but I definitely don't wish for it to be minimalistic.
Lip traits - how many different kinds of lips can there be? Because I think I can only split them into two: either full or not. And the former I included in the "Dick Sucking Lips" oral trait.
Makeup quality and perfume traits are a strong nope from me. These belong in the game as equippable items, not traits.

What I wholeheartedly do agree with is a tier for face descriptions. Faces have a wide variety of different forms, charms and shapes. There's definitely some potential for making traits that would improve/decrease a girl's Beauty.
Yes, this is a lot of traits compared to where we are now. But, I think it really is necessary to have this many traits to adequately describe a girl physically.
I understand your reasoning - I really do - but you have to ask yourself in the end - don't you already have some really powerful and adequate physical description of a girl in-game without the usage of any words? That's right, her images. WM isn't a completely a text game - you have a full and accurate visual representation of what/who the girl is. The way I see it, traits are mainly meant to serve the purpose of a gameplay mechanic.
Which is to say, they definitely shouldn't be too mechanical themselves and their descriptions and names should be as rich and colorful as possible.

Regardless of how many of the proposed traits are implemented, I disagree 0nymous, with your opinion that two is the minimum number of traits to stick to per category. I actually think three is the magic number. Why? For example, let's take a look at the currently available lip fullness traits. We only have one--Dick-Sucking Lips--thus effectively we have two due to the default no trait being normal lips. This fulfills your requirement. But, this leaves out the other side--Thin Lips, which would, say, negatively impact the quality of a BJ.
That's uh, still only two traits, not your magical three. DSL and Thin Lips. I get your point though, one negative trait and one positive trait, with a traitless girl being the neutral middle ground between the two.
That's a good way of thinking, but aren't thin lips basically just normal lips? Isn't a "bad figure" just a normal one? See where I'm going with this?
When a woman is...lacking in some department, or her body doesn't excel at certain points, she's not noticed for that at all. It's her positive physical attributes that draw attention, the negative ones are dismissed as plain and standard.

There are exceptions, however,for example when a woman has the visage of a bridge troll, or her ass is shaped like Hank Hill's (Google it) - and that's where the traits should come into action.

It sounds like you're looking at it from "These are characters in a video game, and they should only Improve because that makes them better for me,"

Well, uh... because that's true? I mean... yeah, detrimental effects as a reward for progress is a really shitty gameplay mechanic. My point is still valid.
I'm looking at things like Fearless, Iron Will, and Delicate and seeing "Okay, I can see how a person would develop those traits (based on certain choices)."  For example, Fearless and Iron Will could be the result of the character 'breaking' - not so much that they develop Broken Will, but to the point that they don't care about the drawbacks that could result from their actions so long as they're able to lash out *now*.

See now, this would be really great if a girl gained traits from certain specific actions taking place in-game. BUT what we're talking about is a girl gaining traits IN EXCHANGE for experience. I argue that losing her wisdom and training as she gains experience isn't really sensical whatsoever.
Trait loss? Sure.
Trait loss for leveling up? Nay sir.


The talk of skill/stat limiting here actually gave me a great idea of how to do it.Because I am already changing stats/skills to use a separate number to use trait modifiers, instead of making it an addition, I can make it a multiplication.So traits are taken into account and the stat/skill is multiplied by a trait modifier.(base+temp+item)*(trait)

That is fucking fantastic. So if "Flat Chest" is set to 0, the multiplication of the titfuck value by 0 would leave it at 0 as well.


On the other hand... there is a major flaw here.

Let's say a girl has ...3 titfuck.
She then gains the "Busty Boobs" trait. If the value of the trait is too low, like 2, then she only ends up with a measly boost of a total of 6 titfuck.
Now let's say another girl has 10 titfuck.  If the value of the trait is too high, like 10, then her titfuck would suddenly skyrocket to a whooping 100.
So the question is... what would the values of trait multiplication be?

The description for the traits in WME are taken directly from the CoreTraits.traits(x) file.Eventually, when I code the trait modifiers into the CoreTraits.traitsx file, WME will be able to edit them like the girls with every modifier shown and editable.


Fucking based. That's most of what I ever wanted from WM.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:24:01 PM by 0nymous »