Traits, Stats and Skill Discussion

[dmotrl]

Well, uh... because that's true? I mean... yeah, detrimental effects as a reward for progress is a really shitty gameplay mechanic. My point is still valid.

Didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a valid point ... but so is mine.  I mean, you can already get Aggressive from Dungeon-crawling or Arena-fighting, so there is precedent for 'detrimental' effects from progress.  Of course, there's also the matter of where the game goes from here - if girls leading Gang Squads does eventually happen, for example, then Fearless would be a positive trait for a girl in that position.

See now, this would be really great if a girl gained traits from certain specific actions taking place in-game. BUT what we're talking about is a girl gaining traits IN EXCHANGE for experience. I argue that losing her wisdom and training as she gains experience isn't really sensical whatsoever.
Trait loss? Sure.
Trait loss for leveling up? Nay sir.

Trait loss for leveling up (particularly if it's a negative trait like Slow Learner or Pessimist) makes as much sense as trait gain for leveling up, I think.  And girls do already (or can, at least) gain traits from certain actions in-game - combat experience can give Tough, Aggressive, Adventurer, and Fleet of Foot, and certain traits can be gained through Torture in the dungeon (IIRC, this is normally Temporary, but a slight modification can allow it to be permanent).  Something like "A Bad Experience" could be done with a check on sex actions.
 

BUT what we're talking about is a girl gaining traits IN EXCHANGE for experience. I argue that losing her wisdom and training as she gains experience isn't really sensical whatsoever.

... Hm?  Not sure what you mean about 'in exchange' - from what I know, it's simply that as a Girl grows in level, she gains (or possibly loses) a Trait.  Frankly, I'd be fine with not having traits on level-up at all, since it's basically an arbitrary reward with a random payout unless your idea does prove workable.  Would probably make the Training options, or training a Girl personally, see more use as well, if they gave better chances of getting certain traits.

[Hazure]

Ok...I'll admit I miss read the Broodmother trait...but I wasn't just thinking about furries....I was also thinking about girls who's families run to multipul births....I've know a couple of families like that....or individuals like...dunno...."Octo-mom"...one's who just drop babies in clusters.

[ncquolopow]

Ok. So thanks to Aevojoey's "Forums Use 101" thread, I know how quote properly now 

Actually, it's not. I wasn't responsible for suggesting the "Dojikko" trait (and the "Clumsy" trait has been in the game since forever).
Not only that, but "dojikko" is a term clearly defined that's not really up to anyone's interpretation, be it mine or the developer's. Straight outta the almighty Wikipedia:

Well it would nice if everyone adhered strictly to formal/dictionary definitions...however in reality people have different conceptions of what a word/term means. Case in point: earlier in this thread, Aevojoey had to explain the difference between Fragile and Delicate, since we both thought that they were synonymous. And if, say tomorrow, Aevojoey thought Optimist meant "All it takes is one thing to send her mood down to the pits of the abyss..." while Pessimist meant "She is very cheerful and is rarely in a bad mood," then I would have to go through my girls and uncheck Optimist and check Pessimist, and uncheck Pessimist and check Optimist where applicable. Point is, since we're playing the developer's game, it is the developer's definition that matters. It might coincide with the dictionary definition; it may not.

Alright, now I'm getting freaked out. I used nearly identical wording here: http://www.pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=3433.msg28266#msg28266
Well, it wasn't what I suggested when proposing Delicate, but aevo managed to think of something better than just replacing Fragile so that's more than fair game to me.

Wow...that is kinda freaky. Trust me, I never read that before.

Ehhh, I don't know. I'm kind of skeptical about your long list of "Must Haves" as traits. I'll have to stand by my opinion that one trait per a girl's figure, lips, legs and hips is enough.
I'd also argue with the need of splitting tit/ass traits into tiers based on quality and size. I mean... how do you define the quality of an ass if not by its size? Its shape, I guess, but that's still very limited.
You have to keep in mind, it wasn't long ago when we had nothing but two different traits for tits; one for huge ones and the other for even huger ones.
I never intended to stray too far from that kind of mechanic, but I definitely don't wish for it to be minimalistic.
Lip traits - how many different kinds of lips can there be? Because I think I can only split them into two: either full or not. And the former I included in the "Dick Sucking Lips" oral trait.
Makeup quality and perfume traits are a strong nope from me. These belong in the game as equippable items, not traits.

What I wholeheartedly do agree with is a tier for face descriptions. Faces have a wide variety of different forms, charms and shapes. There's definitely some potential for making traits that would improve/decrease a girl's Beauty.

For asses? Quality as I might have mentioned earlier could start with Saggy Butt. Better quality--as you said, we're pretty much limited to shape here--could be described as Bubble Butt or Peach-Shaped. I don't know, I don't have a great command of vocabulary, but I'm sure someone can come up with a list pretty easily for ass quality.

For lips, I'm not sure if you read the entirety of my previous post (I know it was long), but I did mention Thin Lips for lips that are less appealing than normal (just google it, you'll see that thin lips exist!). Again, I'm not a great writer, so I'm sure someone can come up with a better and longer list of traits per category.

I respect your opinion. But I also stand by my list because you're letting a lot of common asses/tits/lips/whatever slip by by not allowing for both quality and size to be accounted for separately.

Also, as I mentioned, that list can be trimmed if the number of traits is a big issue for Aevojoey, since figure takes sizes into account somewhat...so keeping figure and getting rid of tit/hip/ass sizes or keeping tit/hip/ass sizes and getting rid of figure would work.

You're right about makeup and perfume though. Don't know how I overlooked the fact that traits imply something that's inherent to a girl...makeup and perfume are definitely external.

I understand your reasoning - I really do - but you have to ask yourself in the end - don't you already have some really powerful and adequate physical description of a girl in-game without the usage of any words? That's right, her images. WM isn't a completely a text game - you have a full and accurate visual representation of what/who the girl is. The way I see it, traits are mainly meant to serve the purpose of a gameplay mechanic.
Which is to say, they definitely shouldn't be too mechanical themselves and their descriptions and names should be as rich and colorful as possible.

Yes you're right about images being an adequate physical description (assuming you find a good set of them for the girl)...for the player. However, the problem is that I'd like to see those traits that are so apparent in the images (or simply in the player's imagination) actually translate into in-game stats. For example, it is definitely weird if your idea of a girl is that she's a fighter yet she doesn't have any traits like Adventurer, Tough, Strong, etc. to reflect that. The same thing applies to physical features/body parts. Regardless of how physically attractive the player thinks a girl should be, that player should be able to find a set of traits that accurately and comprehensively describe that girl. The world of Crossgate doesn't know anything about a girl just based on her images. The player must give Crossgate/the game that information by giving the girl stats and traits through the editor, allowing the game to see somewhat eye-to-eye with the player. I don't know about others, but seeing the game interact with the girl based on my conception of what the girl is like is a big turn-on and makes the game more immersive.

That's uh, still only two traits, not your magical three. DSL and Thin Lips. I get your point though, one negative trait and one positive trait, with a traitless girl being the neutral middle ground between the two.That's a good way of thinking, but aren't thin lips basically just normal lips? Isn't a "bad figure" just a normal one? See where I'm going with this?
When a woman is...lacking in some department, or her body doesn't excel at certain points, she's not noticed for that at all. It's her positive physical attributes that draw attention, the negative ones are dismissed as plain and standard. There are exceptions, however,for example when a woman has the visage of a bridge troll, or her ass is shaped like Hank Hill's (Google it) - and that's where the traits should come into action.

Ah, see the problem is that you think normal and "bad" are the same thing. Whereas I certainly think most people don't think that way. No there is definitely such a thing as below average or less attractive, I hardly think that in real life "negative [traits] are dismissed as plain and standard." You can google "thin lips," "saggy butt," "saggy boobs," and I hope you will see what I mean. A bad figure? Well for the majority it would mean somewhat the opposite of hourglass I assume. More convex than concave. Or in general, being muscular in the wrong places, and fat in the wrong places.

Let's get rid of Clumsy because that's normal...only exceptionally dexterous girls are worth a trait. Let's get rid of Blind because girls either can see 20/20 (or better) or are "normal." Let's get rid of Fragile because a girl is either Tough or she's normal (not Tough). Let's get rid of Pessimist because a girl is either optimistic or normal. No way a girl can get depressed easily. Let's get rid of Slow Learner and Retarded because that's the same thing as learning and thinking normally. There's plenty more traits I could use as examples that are already in the game but I'll stop now.

When I said three traits, I was including a lack of trait as one of those traits. I thought I made that clear. In any case, as I illustrated above, two traits per category (including a lack of trait) is simply not enough. Girls do not either have average/normal features or exceptionally beautiful ones. It is possible for their features to have a negative impact their beauty. Humans are judgmental. That's just how we are. If we can judge that something is "good" we certainly have the ability to judge when something is "bad." Yes we can choose to treat people who are not so intelligent, rich, good-looking, etc. no worse than we would the average/normal person. But that doesn't mean that we have the ability to ignore when someone is at a disadvantage.

Remember when you were talking about introducing caps to this game? We don't want only min caps because there's only talented girls...and average girls. No. We want max caps also to account for the girls with below average talent. And this same rationale for having max caps applies to having negative traits. Using your own example, we don't want to dismiss situations where a girl with a Flat Chest should have a harder time pleasing a customer with a titfuck. That's not realistic.

The description for the traits in WME are taken directly from the CoreTraits.traits(x) file.
Eventually, when I code the trait modifiers into the CoreTraits.traitsx file, WME will be able to edit them like the girls with every modifier shown and editable.

 

[Hazure]

Speaking of bad figures...what about the morbidly obese.....or god forbid....Sally Struthers......I mean some guys like big girls....It was described to me as having a magnifing lens on all the good parts ....I don't personaly get it but why isn't there a bad figure in the game?

[ncquolopow]

Speaking of bad figures...what about the morbidly obese.....or god forbid....Sally Struthers......I mean some guys like big girls....It was described to me as having a magnifing lens on all the good parts ....I don't personaly get it but why isn't there a bad figure in the game?

I know right? We currently have ~210 traits in the game, including a bunch of traits that just aren't that common realistically and will be used by a very small minority of girls even in the fantastical world of Crossgate: Blind, Deaf, Bimbo, all the ones dealing with lactation, ones dealing with missing body parts and scars, any of the ones in the Species category, etc.

Meanwhile, the list of trait categories I suggested for physical features is probably 20-40 total traits, with some of those traits already being in the game so it wouldn't add that much more to the game relative to the 200+ already in the game. In addition, the trait list I suggested is applicable to every girl, whereas some traits already in the game--especially the ones I mentioned above--are used rarely. So if you want to cut down on traits? Start with ones like "Battery Operated," "Solar Powered," "Reptilian," "Different Colored Eyes." And you have trait chains like Deepthroat->No Gag Reflex->Gag Reflex->Strong Gag Reflex, and Dry Milk->Scarce Lactation->Abundant Lactation->Cow Tits...but we shouldn't have one negative, one neutral, and one positive trait per important body feature?

I'm not seriously saying take out any of the existing traits I mentioned above. A lot of them are corner cases/fetishes, but do come into play strongly for certain girls (especially with lactation because we now have a Farm). My point is that I don't think trait list size is a good enough reason to exclude a more comprehensive set of traits for physical features that will actually come into play for the vast majority of girls.

[aevojoey]

I have gotten some of the new and old mutually exclusive traits changed to a new method of handling them:
Breast size, Lactation, Nipple type, Gag Reflex, Orgasm types
"Sterile", "Fertile"
"Straight", "Bisexual", "Lesbian"
and I started the eye types

I am removing the old stat/skill modifiers from the add/remove traits and when that is done I will start the new trait modifiers.

The new trait modifier will be a percentage multiplier.

Trait name	=	Approximate Cup size	=	example multiplier for tit job
"Flat Chest"	=	-	=	0.1
"Petite Breasts"	=	A	=	0.4
"Small Boobs"	=	B	=	0.8
(no trait)	=	C	=	1
"Busty Boobs"	=	D	=	1.1
"Big Boobs"	=	E	=	1.2
"Giant Juggs"	=	F	=	1.3
"Abnormally Large Boobs"	=	G	=	1.4
"Massive Melons"	=	H	=	1.5

I am not sure of the numbers yet or how exactly they will get combined.
I will try to keep the final number below 200, preferably below 150.
There should not be negative skills and I'm not sure how I will deal with negative stats.

I will probably release .06.00.05 when the old stat/skill mods are gone and the next version should have the start of the new trait mod.



Adding some more new skills to expand on some existing ones:

Code: [Select]

<Trait Name="Muggle" Desc="This girl can barely use magic if at all." Type="Magical" />
<Trait Name="Weak Magic" Desc="This girl has very little magical power within her." Type="Magical" />
<Trait Name="Strong Magic" Desc="This girl has strong power within her. Be careful you don't give her too much trouble." Type="Magical" />
<Trait Name="Powerful Magic" Desc="This girl has great power within her. She may become too powerful for you to handle." Type="Magical" />

<Trait Name="Blind" Desc="This girl is blind and cannot see" Type="Action" />
<Trait Name="Bad Eyesight" Desc="This girl needs glasses to see, without them she is almost blind." Type="Action" />
<Trait Name="Sharp-Eyed" Desc="This girl can see much clearer than most people." Type="Action" />
Renamed "Glasses" to "Bad Eyesight" as suggested.

[aevojoey]

Almost done with mutually exclusive traits.
Along with the ones listed above, I have done:
Tattoos, Slow/Quick Learner, Broken/Iron Will, Princess/Queen, Fragile/Tough, Optimist/Pessimist, Construct/Half-Construct

Removed trait "Middle Aged" as it is not easily quantified.
I changed the description for "Old" removing the age reference.

Code: [Select]

<Trait Name="Old" Desc="This girl is old and looks it." Type="Physical" />
"Lolita", "MILF" and "Old" are somewhat mutually exclusive now.
She can have "MILF" and "Old" together but both are excluded from "Lolita".
If anyone has a better idea for how these should work together, let me know.


Of the current traits set I still need to do:
"Fearless", "Meek", "Dependant", "Nervous", "Aggressive" mix
Eyes
the missing limb traits
the ass and figure traits
and the Species traits



If anyone wants any other traits added post them as xml like old is above and I will get them in.

[0nymous]

Eyes as in eye colors?
Because that would be a lot of traits...

[crazy]

I would just get rid of the missing limbs traits they are just to messed up. Think about it a girl with no hand or arms would have to have 0 in handjob always. Then u have the problem of things like how could they do 90% of the jobs?  Seems to me to be a lot of coding for not much use.

[0nymous]

I would just get rid of the missing limbs traits they are just to messed up. Think about it a girl with no hand or arms would have to have 0 in handjob always. Then u have the problem of things like how could they do 90% of the jobs?  Seems to me to be a lot of coding for not much use.

I agree with this.

Nevertheless, logically thinking a girl with one hand is still perfectly capable of performing a handjob.

[aevojoey]

Eyes as in eye colors?
Because that would be a lot of traits...

The number of eyes the girl has:
"Different Colored Eyes", "Eye Patch", "One Eye", "Cyclops"
and adding them in with "Blind", "Bad Eyesight", "Sharp-Eyed" that are already done.

"Cyclops" overrides "Different Colored Eyes" and "One Eye"
"Eye Patch" and "One Eye" overrides "Different Colored Eyes"

"Eye Patch" should probably be removed because it is an item.
"Eye Patch" and "One Eye" can be synonyms if she has 1 eye missing and covers it with an eye patch
Or if she has 2 good eyes and wears an eye patch for some reason, she could have "Eye Patch" without "One Eye".
"Eye Patch" has been in the traits for a while so removing it would need to be compensated for.


::: Edit :::
The final writeup of these 4 seems to make sense.
"Cyclops" - being born with 1 eye is not the same as "One Eye" - being born with 2 eyes then loosing one.
So if she has "Cyclops" and tries to add "One Eye", it will not add "One Eye".

If something tries to give her "Different Colored Eyes" and she only has 1 eye, if it is because she is a Cyclops it will ignore DCE completely, otherwise it will only add DCE as a remembered trait.
So if she regains a lost eye (removes "Eye Patch" or "One Eye") the replaced eye will be a different color, but if she grows a new eye (removes "Cyclops") it will be the same color as the original eye.

I would just get rid of the missing limbs traits they are just to messed up. Think about it a girl with no hand or arms would have to have 0 in handjob always. Then u have the problem of things like how could they do 90% of the jobs?  Seems to me to be a lot of coding for not much use.

I don't really like the missing limbs idea either but if a girl is missing a limb, that is something that definitely needs a trait for it.

Jobs can still be assigned but they will hardly get much done.

It is not really that much coding because I am changing the way traits affect stats and skills.
The trait multiplier of "No Hands" and "No Arms" for Hand Job would be 0.

[dmotrl]

"Eye Patch" and "One Eye" overrides "Different Colored Eyes"

"Eye Patch" should probably be removed because it is an item.
"Eye Patch" and "One Eye" can be synonyms if she has 1 eye missing and covers it with an eye patch
Or if she has 2 good eyes and wears an eye patch for some reason, she could have "Eye Patch" without "One Eye".
"Eye Patch" has been in the traits for a while so removing it would need to be compensated for.

Except the "Eye Patch" item only exists to grant the "Eye Patch" trait for girls who don't have a missing eye.  Removing the Trait would render the item useless (until someone decides to give it stats/abilities) because it doesn't do anything else.  I can also think of several characters off the top of my head who wear Eye Patches without missing an eye - Laura Bodewig, Aldra, Takanashi Rikka, Sakamoto Mio.  They use it to mask either heterochromia or an ability.

[0nymous]

Why not rename the lengthy three-worded "Different Colored Eyes" trait to simply "Heterochromia" since it's the precise term for the condition.
...it also sounds cooler.

I don't really like the missing limbs idea either but if a girl is missing a limb, that is something that definitely needs a trait for it.

I usually just use the girl's description to highlight it, but I suppose it wouldn't be enough for a girl missing BOTH arms.

The trait multiplier of "No Hands" and "No Arms" for Hand Job would be 0.

There's a slight problem here -  if an armless girl is requested to do handjob she will still do it - the description will only state that she's doing it horribly.
Whereas what should be happening is the possibility of a handjob event for an armless girl to just be zero.
This is something I brought up for titfuck and the "Flat Chest" trait.

[aevojoey]

Why not rename the lengthy three-worded "Different Colored Eyes" trait to simply "Heterochromia" since it's the precise term for the condition.
...it also sounds cooler.

Because "Different Colored Eyes" has been in the game for a long time and every (r)girlsx file would have to be checked to change the name of the trait.

There's a slight problem here -  if an armless girl is requested to do handjob she will still do it - the description will only state that she's doing it horribly.
Whereas what should be happening is the possibility of a handjob event for an armless girl to just be zero.
This is something I brought up for titfuck and the "Flat Chest" trait.

That can be checked for before the job is chosen.

But as I said before:

Tit job does not always specify who's tits are used, the girl's or the customers, so flat chest could be irrelevant.
Same with foot job. 

Same with hand job.



I have changed the wording of Broodmother and added it in to be mutually exclusive with Fertile and Sterile.

Code: [Select]

<Trait Name="Broodmother" Desc="Not just fertile, but super fertile, this girl is capable of giving birth to multiple children." Type="Sexual" />

I added "No Nipples" to affect both nipple and lactation traits.
Added Shy/Exhibitionist
Ass 'quality' traits
Missing/No Teeth - probably could use more alternatives


I have decided to not add arm/hand/finger or leg/foot/toe traits to the M/E check.
There are too many variations and they will probably never be used.
If an item adds or removes any of these, it will have to specify what exactly it does.

The Species traits will also not be added to the M/E check because they should not change.
They may be removed entirely if Species gets changed from trait to some kind of Species Stat.


These traits need more alternates before they can be added to the M/E list:
Long Legs
Dick-Sucking Lips
Tone Deaf
Deaf
Large Hips
Wide Bottom
Muscular
Plump
Hourglass Figure
Great Figure
Mature Body
Giant

[MrKlaus]

 Hope this is what you meant, alternatives:
 For Plump:
Fat
Plump
Chunky/Thick
 Balance Weight
Thin
Very thin
Anorectic
 
For Hourglass (Types founded in Wikipedia,  Body shape ):
Banana / Straight / I Shape
Apple / V Shape
Pear / Spoon / Bell / A shape
Hourglass Figure / X Shape
 
For Giant:
Short
Average height
Above average height
Tall
Very Tall
Giant
 
For Wide bottom:
Narrow hips
Small hips
Normal Hips / Average Hips
Full Hips
Wide bottom