Pink Petal Games
Feedback => New Features => Topic started by: delta224 on November 22, 2009, 08:21:17 PM
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What you people like to see for post game completion content. Hell, what would like to be the requirements for completing the game. As it stands all you need are some fully maxed out gangs set to sabotage and a way to pay for them and you can get the you beat the game message, just by hitting the next day message over and over, with the occasional save, for protection against the very rare next day crash.
Any ideas people.
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I think the answer to this question will come when we decide what the real focus of the game should be. If we keep it as a brothel-management game, where criminal activity/catacombs exploration is a side game, then the end-game scenario should be related to brothel management. If the criminal element is enhanced and brothel management becomes the side-game, then we can go with some variant of defeating all rivals/controlling all criminal activity in the city.
Quite frankly, I'm at a loss as to what a win condition would be for brothel management would be. Reaching a certain income and/or collecting a certain amount of money/girls/brothels are the only two conditions I can think of, and neither one strikes me as particularly satisfying. Maybe there could be some sort of competitive nature to brothel management, where the opponents also run brothels and the goal is to lure customers away from them so that they end up closing their shops or selling to the highest bidder.
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I think I'm more or less happy with "wiping out all the other gangs" as a victory condition. I think the trouble is that the game gives you too much up front.
I think I'd like to see the city divided into distinct wards, roughly corresponding to the location of the six brothels. Each ward has its own customer pool, so control of a ward means lots of extra income. And I'd like to see each ward need something specific to unlock it before the player could try and expand into it. Also, each ward is ruled by its own gang, which is going to need to be dealt with if you want to do business there in safety.
Set it up like that, add a bit of fanfare for each ward unlocked, a bit more again for the final victory, and retain an option to keep playing after victory, just like now. I think would satisfy most people.
Also, we should look at finding faces for the enemy gang leaders. Don't want to spend too much resources on it - I know the girls are the main focus. But maybe we could find some bad-guy mugshots, and then have them pop up to taunt,threaten or gloat from time to time. Make the player's quest for vengeance a little more personal. Perhaps get a dozen or so pics so we could have random faces to go with the random names. We could probably take the opportunity to implement female gang bosses as well, with the potential to enslave some of your rivals.
Anyway, that's the way I'd like to see this go.
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Maybe each rival controls a ward, with his/her own gangs providing security and raiding other rival leaders' (including the player's) territories. Taking over a rival leader's territory should require a massive amount of resources and should earn the ire/jealousy of other leaders, who might step up attacks on the newly empowered leader. If it takes time and resources to solidify a hold on a newly conquered territory, then conquering one wouldn't automatically give the conqueror an advantage over his/her rivals (and lead to the cascade-victory effect). Victory in the game would then be achieved by conquering (and solidifying one's hold on?) all territories in the city.
If the buildings a pre-purposed (meaning each is suitable for conversion into a select list of the available building types), then it may be worthwhile to have multiple wards per leader, each with it's own specialized resources. The player starts out from a small base of operations in a poor district of the city and has to expand out, exploit new resources, and defeat his rivals - all funded or otherwise supported by his stable of girls. This way, the girls are a means to an end and brothel management is still critical to the game, but we pick up an element of strategy along the way. Do I risk expanding into the South Side, spreading myself thin in the process, to gain control of the lucrative drug manufacturing ring there, or do I play it safe and move into the harbor district to gain control of the (less profitable) harborside whorehouses?
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On the subject of images for rival leaders, could we add additional girl types for rival leaders and/or gang leaders? I know not everyone is interested in the "all my rivals are female" schtick, but I don't see the harm in enabling the capability for all rival leaders and gang leaders to be female if modders are willing to create enough girls to make it happen. Those who don't want them can opt to not use them. If there aren't enough girls of the appropriate types to fill the roles, then Vinnie "The Random" Badass (or Jimmy "Twofingers" McGee, Tommy "No Nickname" Johnson, etc) can step in. Pack enough "random tough guy" pics with the game to cover all the potential rivals, and those who don't want to play with female rivals will never need to.
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That all sounds good to me. I definitely like the idea that not all wards are created equal :)
We could have an "uptown" ward where all the old money lived, and there were a lot of private guards. Serious money to be made, but very little tolerance for public disorder, so you'd have to be careful. Need a better class of girl to do business there too.
Could have a market quarter where control got you a discount at the market, or maybe just access to better shops/a better selection of goods. Possibly a better class of slave girl, too.
What else? A university ward: not much income, but good for grabbing girls off the streets, and maybe a bonus for training mages. There'd be a slum district. Not much good for anything, but that's where you start. Possibly a red-light district: gets the most customers, if not necessarily the biggest wallets; an artisans quarter, where you could get some items made to order. Possibly make some items only available this way.
Definite possibilities there :)
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Do you think there should be a way to influence the law an the mayor. In the game now we can only bribe other gangs. Should there also be a religious ward, I know alot of people like to go after nuns. ;)
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I thought the bribe money was for the mayor - to stop him sending the city guard round to bust your operation.
mmm... garison ward: customers mainly soldiers, so torturing them may be a bad idea. Street walking is a lot safer, although there's the girls still risk getting beaten and raped by the customer. Possible guard support against raids by other gangs. (Of course, if you're the invader, this could work against you). Brothels in this ward are unlikely to get raided (or raids will tend to turn a blind eye).
A Temple/Cathedral quarter sounds good, although someone might need to rustle up a nun based girlpack :)
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I think that some of the Rivals should be female but not all.
It would be interesting to get the option to enslave the rivals as well.
I will say that it would be helpful if the rivals weren't so easily beaten. I mean I had a slight mistake in one situation where I stopped taking over territory's I only had to claimed.
Then after a while of not taking territory I got the message that a rival showed up after loosing all his assets when I didn't take any of his. It's almost like the Rivals are just dropping like flies even if you don't do anything. So it would be useful if some of the completion on the crime part had you giving more effort into it instead of them seeming to loose if you simply hold on to your small 2 buiseness territory. (I have no idea if this was a bug but the situation actually fit this discussion now since thier is discussion about winning by beating rivals)
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I will say that it would be helpful if the rivals weren't so easily beaten. I mean I had a slight mistake in one situation where I stopped taking over territory's I only had to claimed.
Well, that's part of the idea behind having wards. You can't really hurt a rival gang until you can gain access to the ward where they're based, and that takes some doing. (On the other hand your neighbours can still raid you, so you need to defend).
I do agree that we need to tone down the rivals warring among themselves. Either that, or make it so that they get tougher the more territory they control,
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I think that some of the Rivals should be female but not all.
It would be interesting to get the option to enslave the rivals as well.
I will say that it would be helpful if the rivals weren't so easily beaten. I mean I had a slight mistake in one situation where I stopped taking over territory's I only had to claimed.
Then after a while of not taking territory I got the message that a rival showed up after loosing all his assets when I didn't take any of his. It's almost like the Rivals are just dropping like flies even if you don't do anything. So it would be useful if some of the completion on the crime part had you giving more effort into it instead of them seeming to loose if you simply hold on to your small 2 buiseness territory. (I have no idea if this was a bug but the situation actually fit this discussion now since thier is discussion about winning by beating rivals)
The beauty of my solution is that you only have as many female rivals as you want to have. If you only want 1 or 2, great! Don't add more than that in the .girl files and that's all you'll ever see. Alternatively, the number could be set in the options, with gang leaders randomly chosen from the pool if the pool is larger than the set number or generated from the random girls files if the number is larger than the available pool.
The "rivals are too easily beaten" thing will be taken care of.
Well, that's part of the idea behind having wards. You can't really hurt a rival gang until you can gain access to the ward where they're based, and that takes some doing. (On the other hand your neighbours can still raid you, so you need to defend).
I do agree that we need to tone down the rivals warring among themselves. Either that, or make it so that they get tougher the more territory they control,
One way of making them tougher as they expand is to make the number of gangs you can control dependent on the number of territories you control. If we alter the recruiting process so that you must obtain the loyalty of a gang before you can hire them, and make gangs persistent in each ward (so a gang maintains loyalty to the previous controlling rival after you take over a territory - the gang will interfere with your operations until you lower its loyalty to your rival(s) and raise its loyalty to you or you annihilate the gang entirely. Gangs loyal to rivals will help them if they attempt to regain control of the ward).
When engaging in gang warfare to control a new territory, bringing more gangs to the fight should increase you chances of winning. Wisdom says it is easier to defend a position than to attack it, so defending gangs should get a bonus (perhaps limited to those gangs who were assigned to guard duty in the ward being attacked). The locals in the ward could take sides as well, if one side has a clearly better reputation than the other (for example, when a leader with a good rep assaults a ward controlled by a leader with an evil rep [for extortion, torture, murder, etc], the locals might side with the attacker, hoping he wins. If the attacker loses, there could be dire consequences for the locals, though, so they also might opt to stay quiet, especially if the attacker looks certain to lose.
Territories should have individual maximums on the number of gangs you can recruit from them, and the gangs can be of different starting quality. As an example, the slums would produce more gangs than the Uptown ward, but they would probably start with lower stats and poorer equipment than any recruited from Uptown. Similarly, the military ward might produce a larger number of well trained, well equipped gangs.
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I don't think that having a lot of rival infighting is a big deal, so long as the one that wins out is actually stronger for doing so - you don't want to create a power vacuum, but if a rival manages to conquer two of his neighbors and solidify his hold, where's the harm?
I like most of the ideas here. I'm not sure how *practical* they all are, because a lot of them seem to be veering a bit from what I think is the main point of the game, but perhaps my viewpoint will (should?) change as we get through the building update going forward.
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Well, I've been saying the game has needed to become more "personal" from the get-go. But I was suggesting more so with girl interaction as well as local interactions.
Such as a greedy merchant coming to you personally, looking for a girl with specific traits. You find the girl convince her to work for you and then a month later (however long he gives you) He'll come back looking for this girl. Now, maybe you send spies to learn more about him, or maybe you become more attached to said girl. Making it harder to give her away.
The girls as is are pretty much just objects, but I'd like to see their thoughts and feelings and player interacting expanded more upon.
Not to say the gang ideas are bad, I actually like them. However, they detract from the possibilities of what could add to more expansive gameplay in the current meat of the game, the girls and the brothel.
None of what I added really relevant to post game completion however...
As far as game completion I don't see why there can't be a marriage ending possibly even alignment related good/neutral/bad (Marry a girl and accept an option to end the game?)
As well as the player becoming either mayor or ruler of Crossgate (Wipe out gangs)
You could have a "Fathers foot steps ending" Where you become an incredibly successful Brothel owner (wipe out all gangs + have several girls maxed out and possibly 50+ girls in your brothel)
Assassinated ending, Girls revolt and kill you, Wiped out by gang, Police execute you, Gang revolts, Citizens of Crossgate kill you, Customer blames you for ruining his/her life blows the place up, Mind fucked girl eats you, monster kills you, demon girl (queen?) curses you
Plenty of death endings. :p
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Not to say the gang ideas are bad, I actually like them. However, they detract from the possibilities of what could add to more expansive gameplay in the current meat of the game, the girls and the brothel.
I think I need a bit more explanation on that point. How does developing the gangs a little detract from the possibilities of girl- and brothel-management? I don't see that at all...
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Because it sounds like you're making fighting the gangs the entire focus of the game, which arguably detracts from the brothels in that they're not the focus anymore, just there to support the gang fighting. Also, you need to consider necno, and what he intends for the real end game. He's stated before what's in right now is merely a placeholder, and he intends to expand it.
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Well, even though having more options in one area may not explicitly remove options from elsewhere, it certainly divides the player's interest. No matter how much you veil the issue by saying "but you don't have to use these things!", the minute they become available the game has become a little broader. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but just as importantly it's not necessarily a *good* thing either. It depends on what you're aiming for. Anyway, the point is, I can see where Mehzerz is coming from, and to a certain extent I agree.
Currently the game is pretty focused on the brothels - sure, there are some other options thrown in, but they're not implement nearly as well as the core brothel section. Do we want to try and keep the game that way? I don't know. Certainly it's entertaining in a way right now, but I could see how extending the focus more to an overall crime sim might be a boon. It's a matter of scale, really. Do we go bigger, to a more city-oriented feel? Do we stay as we are, with most of the consideration being within individual brothels? Or, as M seems to be suggesting, do we try and go smaller, with more personal interations between the PC and individual girls?
Of these three options, I can see good things about all of them. However, in my opinion going smaller is the weakest choice - partially because this is probably the hardest to do, partially because we already have so much excellent material that it feels wrong to have to ignore it when shifting to a smaller scale, but mostly because that sort of game is already pretty effectively done in the SM series. The other two scales are pretty equal. As the game stands, it's good; changing it would probably just make it good in a new way. Total wash.
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Necno has already stated each unique girl in the base game is going to have her own event oriented storyline that you can pursue in-game. Along with the planned marriage and the players house content, it looks like he wants to focus on the players interactions with the girls more, and intends end-game conditions to depend on these storylines (I guess). Why this would force the game to be smaller, I personally don't see. Or did you mean smaller as in the players own personal focus would be mainly on a few girls instead of the empire they're making? I would assume girl storylines would mostly be a side note to pursue while managing your assets, so that shouldn't be a problem.
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Yeah, I mean smaller in scale, not content.
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Sometimes it seems that whenever anyone suggests a game machanic involving gangs, someone has to shout "you're trying to make the gangs the entire focus of the game". Can we stop doing that please? I took the point back when you could win the game entirely on extortion, but think there's scope to expand the crime side a little without risking all the girls magically disappearing one dark and chilly night.
And Exodia, dude, just chill. I like the girls as much as anyone, I want to keep them at the heart of the game, and I'm not going to do anything of which necno disapproves. Also, the man does in fact read this board, and is entirely able to speak for himself. He doesn't need you to be his Vicar-on-Earth.
Of these three options, I can see good things about all of them. However, in my opinion going smaller is the weakest choice - partially because this is probably the hardest to do, partially because we already have so much excellent material that it feels wrong to have to ignore it when shifting to a smaller scale, but mostly because that sort of game is already pretty effectively done in the SM series. The other two scales are pretty equal. As the game stands, it's good; changing it would probably just make it good in a new way. Total wash.
The thing is we already have a crime element, and it's been pretty neglected. To my way of thinking, we either want to make the crime side work better, or else we should get rid of it. The trouble with getting rid of the crime is that it really takes away the thing that makes this game unique, and reduces it to SimBrothel 3. I can't see that as a good thing.
I also think, getting back to the point of the thread, that the reason the ending seems so lukewarm is purely because the gang warfare side of things has been so neglected. I think that for a fairly small investment of time and effort, we can have a game where people can invest immerse themselves in the plot and the setting a bit more.
I can't see that as being a bad thing, myself.
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I agree. The girls should be a part of the game - a big part - but I don't think they should dominate. I don't play the SimBro series because it is purely brothel management, which gets boring after 1 or 2 plays through. I've lasted longer with WM because there are additional elements to the game and because with the girl packs there are a huge number of girls (far more than is necessary to win the game), so I can play through multiple times with different "rewards" each time.
That being said, the crime and catacombs elements of WM are like the poor third child: neglected, starved, and locked in a closet by its parents. If we give them a little love, it isn't going to take away from the rest of the game.
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Chill? *looks back at posts* Odd.... I don't see anything I need to "chill" about, I kept a calm, subjective tone. You're the one who seems to have taken something I said personally. I merely pointed out how what you said could be construed as subtracting from the girls, and reminded everyone necno has plans for the game and you shouldn't jump the gun with planning massive content changes when he probably already has something in mind.
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and reminded everyone necno has plans for the game and you shouldn'tjump the gun with planning massive content changes when he probablyalready has something in mind.
Odd. I thought this was an open forum and we were allowed to discuss whatever we wanted. Perhaps you'd better give us a list of all the subjects we are allowed to discuss, just so this doesn't happen again.
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If anything like having a multiple event branches like marrying and other story driven stuff would likely play out better for this type of game if it was more like a sub quest type of thing you can do that would simply alter how the game is played, Like who you make an aranged marrage with could give you access to buying a certain building type, (like marring the Head of the Royal Guard's dauter grant's you to build a gaurd barracks and alows you to hire Better trained and equiped Guards instead of gangs. Marrying a daughter from a rival gang would grant a building that would function like a spy and blackmail network. And so one.
Kind of like their are various hidden quests that can happen and some of the options you can choose from are dependand on what you currently have and random events. And instead of beating the game you only get a reward of something that would improve your over all organization or something that would cause you to drastically alter your current strategy.
Kind of like in some strategic games where if you beat a certain territory you get access to a unique type of unit you can only use by beating that territory.
Since you could have several up grades per event it would insure a good part of a reply value.
That's the only idea I can come up with to make that kind of idea work for this type of game.
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I want to have everything and anything :D
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Well, I wasn't saying ignore the idea of gang wars being put into sectors with various abilities. I'd like to see it done, I agree largely that gangs and the catacombs are largely ignored but are still pretty large parts of the game. I never really liked how gangs were handled to begin with but didn't know how to improve them. This is a great way to do is in my opinion.
I just don't want to see the girls take a back step from the game is all. I'd like to see them on a more personal level and since that's going to be done, and be possible with script mods it's not a major concern. And with the building updates they'll have all kinds of use that they don't have now.
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Well, I wasn't saying ignore the idea of gang wars being put into sectors with various abilities. I'd like to see it done, I agree largely that gangs and the catacombs are largely ignored but are still pretty large parts of the game. I never really liked how gangs were handled to begin with but didn't know how to improve them. This is a great way to do is in my opinion.
I just don't want to see the girls take a back step from the game is all. I'd like to see them on a more personal level and since that's going to be done, and be possible with script mods it's not a major concern. And with the building updates they'll have all kinds of use that they don't have now.
I can appreciate that, and it's a valid concern. And I agree, the girls are the most important aspect of the game
As for personalising interactions with the girls... tell ya what - this thread has been dragged off-topic far enough - let's open a new thread and talk about how to do that.
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Done that: thread (http://pinkpetal.org/index.php?topic=130.0)
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Have I offended you in some way? Because it seems almost every time I make a post now you jump in and bite my throat out, misinterpret what I say to make me out to be some asshole. I never even remotely implied the things you're saying I did, and it seems as if you're twisting everything I say into something negative. It's getting rather tiresome to have to put up with this almost every time I try to post. I wouldn't mind if this were some isolated incident where you misinterpreted something I said, but this has happened multiple times, and its starting to feel like you have it out for me. If you have a problem with me, just say it, I'm sure we can resolve it without this petty flaming.
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Because it seems almost every time I make a post now you jump in and bite my throat out, misinterpret what I say to make me out to be some asshole. I never even remotely implied the things you're saying I did, and it seems as if you're twisting everything I say into something negative. It's getting rather tiresome to have to put up with this almost every time I try to post.
I think that's the pot calling the kettle black. When have I tried to bite your head off, prior to this exchange? If anything, I've tried to avoid responding to your posts. During the thread about traits and custom girls, I bent over backwards to try and find a compromise solution that was acceptable to you, and was rewarded at every stage with condescension, negativity and insults. The next time you addressed a comment to me it was to tell me to stop posting on a thread and move to another section. The time after that would be this thread, and here you are again, telling me what I can and cannot do, plan, and discuss.
So maybe you'll forgive me if I've been a little short on patience with you, but I feel I've eaten more than my portion of humble pie where you're concerned, and it's got me precisely nowhere.
I wouldn't mind if this were some isolated incident where you misinterpreted something I said, but this has happened multiple times, and its starting to feel like you have it out for me. If you have a problem with me, just say it, I'm sure we can resolve it without this petty flaming.
Just stop acting like someone died and made you Project Architect. There are other people playing this game, and I want to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as is humanly possible. Including yours, although you'd never think it from some of your responses.
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With all that is being done in the game is the main charater getting any stats. I keep having girls kick my butt an my guys getting killed when they go crazy. Are we ever going to be able to bitch slap these hoes........please forgive language but you get my point. Is the main charater going to get fleshed out or he just going to be limp wrist harry that can't keep his girls in line.
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I don't think the player is going to receive stats. He doesn't really need them, I had considered that option as well but it's not really necessary. (Nor is the question really related to this topic.)
The player character is essentially "you" nameless and faceless. He's not limited in anyway as the game is currently girls can't kill you. You can treat them as badly as you want, sure they WILL kill your guards, they WILL step out of line and they will refuse to work.
But all of these issues are solved through the talk options, various items and equipment and possibly even events.
If anything, the player will receive "perks" Perhaps offering extended talk options, new areas, more influence and the like. But will he get stats? Probably not. Does he need them? Not really.
Oh as far as post game goes though, it would be cool if you could earn "points" for accomplishing the various goals throughout the game, gaining even more points for specific endings. Adding a BONUS menu at the start, upon completing the first play these points could be used to give certain benefits, increased starting money, faster girl training, start with a rare item, start with a maxed gang member, all talk options unlocked ect. ect.
The various unlockables will add to the replay value. (some unlockables not available for harder modes perhaps?)
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From my admittedly new and still somewhat underinformed vantage point,I think zodiac44 hits the nail on the head when he talks about needingto define the focus of the game.
Right now the focus is splitbetween two gameplay "modes" - Brothel Management and Goon Deployment(with, I gather, a third - Dungeon Crawl - on the way). Right now, thebrothel aspects of the game exist to support the goon squads, who areyour key to actually winning the game... but conversely, the brothelaspect of the game is the most well-developed and interesting.
Seemsto me, then, that integrating the brothel management aspect of the gameinto the actual endgame is the way to go; I like the idea of Wards,needing to defeat a rival gang before you can move into theirterritory; I'd also suggest that the goal of the game be shiftedslightly, so that your goal is not just to wipe out your rivals butalso to build an empire on par with your father's; make getting all sixbrothels, say, a victory condition (possibly unlocking a seventh, morepalatial brothel in the Noble Quarter that provides some benefit tofilling - more money, say, or girls that work there gain Happiness andlose Rebellion automatically).
As to post-game-completioncontent, well, there's the seventh brothel idea, and the idea ofenslaving your former rivals; I was thinking it might not be a bad ideato open up other jobs/missions for your thugs, too. Say, off the top ofmy head... the Sabotage mission turns into attacking your politicalrivals and prominent noble holdings in the city; you get an additional'Campaign' job, wherein your thugs basically wander around tellingeveryone how awesome you are, that sort of thing. The goal wouldessentially be to see yourself elevated to Nobleman status yourself,with all the power and prestige that entails (and if you think gangs ofroving street thugs can't get someone made noble, look into the historyof the Roman Empire sometime; several Emperors became Emperor simply bygiving money to lots and lots of ne'er-do-well thugs, who'd thenproceed to thump anyone that talked smack about them in public).
Basically,I figure 'why stop at being a crime boss?' The whole idea of becomingNoble wouldn't dramatically alter gameplay, save maybe to make iteasier (girls become cheaper, more obedient, taking a walk around thecity or kidnap missions have a higher success rate, et cetera) so thatyou can more easily fill up your brothels and make sure you get all theunique girls, so that if you want to keep playing you can rack up theladies with ease - so the completionists can be happy. ;)
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With all that is being done in the game is the main charater getting any stats. I keep having girls kick my butt an my guys getting killed when they go crazy. Are we ever going to be able to bitch slap these hoes........please forgive language but you get my point. Is the main charater going to get fleshed out or he just going to be limp wrist harry that can't keep his girls in line.
Good point. I'd like to see him somewhere in-between the two, I think. I mean yes, he should be able to win a fight against most of the girls. On the other hand, some of them are superhuman and some are goddesses. I think it takes away from the girls somewhat if the PC is that good. Besides which, the true art ought to be to dominate with personality.
Also, keeping trained assassins, killer androids and powerful supernatural beings enslaved in a whorehouse ought not to be without its risks, or so it seems to me.
That said, I can see some appeal to having the player start out as a bit of a wimp, and to be able to improve his martial and magical prowess. But I don't think it's very high on anyone's priority list at the moment.
Seemsto me, then, that integrating the brothel management aspect of the gameinto the actual endgame is the way to go; I like the idea of Wards,needing to defeat a rival gang before you can move into theirterritory; I'd also suggest that the goal of the game be shiftedslightly, so that your goal is not just to wipe out your rivals butalso to build an empire on par with your father's; make getting all sixbrothels, say, a victory condition (possibly unlocking a seventh, morepalatial brothel in the Noble Quarter that provides some benefit tofilling - more money, say, or girls that work there gain Happiness andlose Rebellion automatically).
I thought about that. But winning by building a chain of brothels ... seems just a bit limp and dissatisfying compared to taking revenge for your father's murder.
That said, I don't have any problem with multiple victory conditions. We could even allow multiple victorys - there's a game called Way that does something a bit like this. It has lots of intermixed story threads running: complete one of them and you get a "The End", but the game plays on anyway with more stories still to tell. Maybe we could do something like that.
As to post-game-completioncontent, well, there's the seventh brothel idea, and the idea ofenslaving your former rivals; I was thinking it might not be a bad ideato open up other jobs/missions for your thugs, too. Say, off the top ofmy head... the Sabotage mission turns into attacking your politicalrivals and prominent noble holdings in the city; you get an additional'Campaign' job, wherein your thugs basically wander around tellingeveryone how awesome you are, that sort of thing. The goal wouldessentially be to see yourself elevated to Nobleman status yourself,with all the power and prestige that entails (and if you think gangs ofroving street thugs can't get someone made noble, look into the historyof the Roman Empire sometime; several Emperors became Emperor simply bygiving money to lots and lots of ne'er-do-well thugs, who'd thenproceed to thump anyone that talked smack about them in public).
The main concern I have about that is that Crossgate is pretty much run by the gangs, so I'm not sure how noble you can get. That said, I'm not sure who elects the mayor, or pays for the guards that raid your brothel either, so maybe we need to expand on that. There's also the issue of moving away from the basic theme again - we'd be adding a political element to the criminal and sexual (and possibly tactical) ones already there. Not that this would be necessarily bad, but it could well prove controversial.
On the other hand, I have often thought it would be fun to get a bit more hands on in subverting the infrastructure of government in the city: make sure one of your bastards gets elected as mayor, set up the garrisson commander with a lovely young mistress who'll do everything in her power to keep him happy, as long as he keeps you happy... that sort of thing. We could probably do that without straying too far from the focus of the game. With the player not getting to be nobility, but he does to be the power behind the throne; the puppet master pulling everyone's strings.
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We could take a page out of Master of Orion (one of my favorite games of all time), and go with multiple win conditions based on how the player wants to achieve victory. The "Revenge" route has the player kicking the asses of all his rivals; destroying them wins the game. A "Diplomat" route has the player elected mayor of the city, with good and evil variants (good: stamp out corruption in the city and restore civic virtue, evil: turn the city government itself into the bureaucracy that runs your criminal empire). A "WhoreMaster" (had to fit the title in somewhere) route has the player take control over all of the brothels in the city; no prostitute walks the streets without kicking profits back up to the player. A "Mogul" route has the player collect some predefined (perhaps based on difficulty?) amount of cash in the bank.
Those are just a few suggestions, there could be many more, and some could be non-mutually exclusive (ie, achieve the "Revenge" victory, then continue playing and get the "WhoreMaster" victory, continue again and get the "Diplomat" victory; but the player cannot get both the good and evil variants of "Dimplomat"). Award points for each victory achieved, depending on the difficulty of the achievement. Assign a point multiplier depending on the length of time it took to achieve the victory condition and another multiplier based on difficulty.
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A "WhoreMaster" (had to fit the title in somewhere) route has the player take control over all of the brothels in the city; no prostitute walks the streets without kicking profits back up to the player.
Hmmm... we'd need to add a lot of indepenent brothels and streetwalkers, that would need to be persuaded to join the fold ... one way or another. Which could be fun, although I think we'd need to add some structure around it.
A "Mogul" route has the player collect some predefined (perhaps based on difficulty?) amount of cash in the bank.
Or even corner the energy market ;) How about a transcendence victory where the player becomes an arch-mage and conducts a ritual to make him One with the Spirit of Poontang?
OK, I'm more than half kidding on that one. But I do sometimes think a tech tree would be nice, and if we have one it opens possibility of a research victory.
On the other hand, I'm not sure the existing map is big enough for some of these strategies. Sending units to sweep the galaxy looking for that last enemy outpost has a certain satisfaction to it. Sticking all your goons on "scout" or somesuch until you find the Last Streetwalker seems to have the same sort of bloodless quality as the current victory conditions. Even with six wards to play with, it still sounds like it would be a bit click-and-wait.
Not wanting to knock the idea (big Moo2 fan myself), just thinking out loud...
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Sticking all your goons on "scout" or some such until you find the Last Streetwalker seems to have the same sort of bloodless quality as the current victory conditions. Even with six wards to play with, it still sounds like it would be a bit click-and-wait.
Not wanting to knock the idea (big Moo2 fan myself), just thinking out loud...
lol, I don't think you'd actually get every girl available. (They're endless) But rather just make the goal to have a specific amount girls owned by you. Since it's up to the user on how many unique girls they want to add to the game I don't see how making it unique girl specific would be possible either.
Or you could just have the Walk feature be the reason for victory. Convincing so many girls to work for you.
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lol, I don't think you'd actually get every girl available. (They'reendless) But rather just make the goal to have a specific amount girlsowned by you.
I guess I was taking zodiac a bit litterally: "A 'WhoreMaster' route has theplayer take control over all of the brothels in the city; no prostitutewalks the streets without kicking profits back up to the player." [stupid italics won't turn off - bear with me]The thing is, having to scour the city for independant streetwalkers and bawdyhouses, and to keep control in the areas you've searched sounds like it could be fun. On the other hand, having a popup appear when you reach N+1 girls sounds kind of "meh". Just like the current one
more editing to come - going to save and see if I can shift these damn italics. Nope seems like I'm stuck with them
Anyway, that was the point, really. Not about getting all the girls, but controlling all the territory so completely that no new girl could start working unless she worked for you.
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Anyway, that was the point, really. Not about getting all the girls, but controlling all the territory so completely that no new girl could start working unless she worked for you.
Yes - that's exactly what I was getting at.
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I've read, and re-read my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I directly insulted you. Once in the traits thread I called the idea of limiting girls traits retarded, so if you took that as a direct insult to you, I apologize, that's not how it was meant. And asking that you make a new thread for this mod you were planning, was just a suggestion, because the thread it was in would get kind of big and cluttered and arguably off-topic and in the wrong section, so I suggested that you make a thread in the mod sections for it. Sorry if that offended you. And I can see my tone in the traits thread might have been a bit combative, however you were basically suggesting to make half my work on making these 50+ girls pointless. Hours of looking up info on girls, trying to pick the right traits and not go overboard, and all this would be rendered moot for half the people that downloaded the girls I make. I put a lot of time and effort into those girls, and I wanted them to be enjoyed the way I intended, and I felt that was being threatened (and still do) so I apologize if my tone was rude. The internet has not helped me in this matter, in that its hard to properly convey tone, I most definitely never intended to give a condescending one, however if that's how it looked, I apologize.
Now, back on topic.
I rather like the idea of multiple ways to win the game. However to make it getting some pre-determined amount of money seems..... ehh. And I don't really like the idea of city "cordons" I mostly ignore gang stuff when I play, and just do the minimum to get new territory for more brothels when I need them, and that sounds like I'd have to do all out gang stuff to get any new buildings. For endings I would suggest having enough government influence, fame, and money to pay for the army to come and wipe out all your rivals in one fell swoop for you. For players not interested in gang wars, it would give us an option to win without bothering with them much.
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'One with the Spirit of Poontang'? Classic. I vote that somehow, some way, we get this in the game.
As for z's other ideas:
"Revenge" - well, it has the advantage of already, you know, existing as an option. However, I was never under the impression that the player was trying to avenge anything, but that's simple enough to change - just much with the starting text again, and voila!
"Diplomat" - I like the idea, but I'm not sure how it would execute. I see this victory (in either flavor, evil or good) as a combination of a lot of things: throwing money at the problem, using gangs, negotiating with rival gangs (which I'll note is not possible, yet or maybe ever), ensuring the removal of the old mayor (peacefully or... not), and of course, just general reputation gain.
"Whoremaster" - I think this gets in by default. Or, at least, the name - the victory condition itself may have to be tweaked. Just getting a lot of girls seems either too easy, or too difficult. Hmmm... I have to ponder on this one a bit, I think I have an idea on it. I'll get back to this at the end of the post.
"Mogul" - I dunno... having a money victory just seems like a cop-out. I think we can do better.
"Transcendence" - like I said above, we really need to get the 'Spirit of Poontang' in the game somehow. Not sure how this one would work... maybe, to do your ritual thing, you need to have one girl with a maxed PClove, one with a max PChate, and one with a max PCfear - plus a rare catacomb item? And a building?
"Other" - ah, yes, the mystical 'other'. Really, this one defies reason: it contains an infinate number of possibilities, but it is so rarely chosen. Spitballing ideas: something with the catacombs? I don't know how we could make that a proper victory condition. I might be neat to have a 'victory' condition based on how many gang members you lose. ;) Ditto for number of people killed in the dungeon.
Anyway, back to the "WM" victory: well, there is at least one significant issue that I see, and that is that the number of girls, and thus the difficulty, of this victory, varies from player to player. Not sure how to fix that, unless it's just to make the number requiredtotally arbitrary.
I wonder, would it be a good/possible idea to have your rivals actually have brothels, as in they own/employ girls (random and custom) of their own? You'd have to have a way to keep track of the rival brothels, perhaps give them incomes, they'd need a basic AI... hmm...
EDIT: Doc, exodia, play nice. I don't care who started it, I'm gonna end it. Don't make me sic zodiac on you. >:( ;)
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Once in the traits thread I called the idea of limiting girls traits retarded, so if you took that as a direct insult to you, I apologize
That was the term that started my fuse ticking, I must admit. Fair enough, apology accepted, and I apologize for jumping on you earlier on. We'll take it from there :)
I rather like the idea of multiple ways to win the game. However to make it getting some pre-determined amount of money seems..... ehh. And I don't really like the idea of city "cordons" I mostly ignore gang stuff when I play, and just do the minimum to get new territory for more brothels when I need them, and that sounds like I'd have to do all out gang stuff to get any new buildings.
That's certainly not the intention. I think we'd need to arrange it so that you could get a decent range of buildings in your starting ward. Secondly, I think I'd want to see a non-gang way of getting into other wards, even if it's just outright bribery.
Better yet might be to just add a preference flag to turn off the wards so you could expand without worrying about them.
For endings I would suggest having enough government influence, fame, and money to pay for the army to come and wipe out all your rivals in one fell swoop for you. For players not interested in gang wars, it would give us an option to win without bothering with them much.
A few folks have proposed a financial victory; I don't see a problem with that. Out of curiosity though, it seems as though you just want to play the game as a brothel sim. In which case: why bother winning at all?
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I do like the idea of multiple victory conditions and even multiple victories; I'd actually suggest having two "Endings" for the game. One when you achieve one of the Victory Conditions, and then you can get a second "Legendary Ending" when you achieve ALL the Victory Conditions. That way there's a reason to keep playing past the first victory condition, and a reason to explore parts of gameplay (gang wars, nobles, saving up cash) that you might have skipped otherwise.
Come to think of it, that'd rather neatly solve the integration issues with certain parts of gameplay; gangs and whores are separate now, but if they're both needed to reach an eventual goal then it links them, however tenuously, in the player's mind. Hmm.
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'One with the Spirit of Poontang'? Classic. I vote that somehow, some way, we get this in the game.
Yeah, that one definitely needs to make it in.
"Whoremaster" - I think this gets in by default. Or, at least, the name - the victory condition itself may have to be tweaked. Just getting a lot of girls seems either too easy, or too difficult. Hmmm... I have to ponder on this one a bit, I think I have an idea on it. I'll get back to this at the end of the post.
It's not about how many girls you control, necessarily. It's about monopolizing the industry. The idea is to have the player make it impossible for anyone else to operate a brothel in the city without it being under his purview.
"Mogul" - I dunno... having a money victory just seems like a cop-out. I think we can do better.
How about an insane amount of money, like 1 billion? That isn't trivial to achieve, even in the current incarnation.
Anyway, back to the "WM" victory: well, there is at least one significant issue that I see, and that is that the number of girls, and thus the difficulty, of this victory, varies from player to player. Not sure how to fix that, unless it's just to make the number requiredtotally arbitrary.
Like I said, fixed because there isn't a requirement for a number of girls. Even if there was, they could be filled in with randoms.
I wonder, would it be a good/possible idea to have your rivals actually have brothels, as in they own/employ girls (random and custom) of their own? You'd have to have a way to keep track of the rival brothels, perhaps give them incomes, they'd need a basic AI... hmm...
I take it as a given in the current game that your rivals run brothels, even though it isn't specified and they apparently don't compete for the same resources.
EDIT: Doc, exodia, play nice. I don't care who started it, I'm gonna end it. Don't make me sic zodiac on you. >:( ;)
Yeah! I'll break your interwebs! >;o)